She unblocked me right after I bumped into her

[ConfusedPolish]

do you really think shes thinking these things?

You are the voice of reason for me now OR,
Maybe you are right. Maybe she doesn't think those things.

Today I remembered that she shared her Spotify whit me once and I checked out her playlists. She doesn't know I check it sometimes.
It was gut wrenching. She has a new playlist with sad songs about lost love, going back in time, giving everything for the true love and seeing her the way she is. There were all from September though.
I cried for an hour after I've seen this wondering why she doesn't want it from me. It's obvious she was hurting a lot and probably still is in some extent. This is why it's hard for me to understand why it all turned out the way it did. It's like she wanted to go back... This confusion never stops.
I am afraid that even when she wants to reach out her emotions and shame will put stop to it.

It's crazy how this who spotify thing made me want to just jump and console her. I wanted to run to her place and just knock on her door.
It was a hard reflex to stop.

it is really not at all uncommon for someone who receives a note/apology/reach out like you sent, and defer it for a while, several weeks, even 2-3 months. it wouldnt be out of the ordinary if it took longer. and of course, it may never come at all.

The uncertainty is the biggest reason why I am still holding on to hope. I feel like I will hold on to that hope even when my life will seemingly go back to normal. I can't imagine how people cope with breakups with "pfff, if she doesn't want me, good riddence!". I could only imagine this to be the case when there is no love whatsoever.

A few day ago you and I talked about bumping into her again and I am struggling with this daily. It is definitely too early to do it. I know why I want to though. I feel like she is going to slip away, but then I remind myself that she already has.

passively waiting wont help you detach from her[/b]

Do I really have to fully detach from her and from idea of her? It seems impossible as long as I hope for reconciliation of any kind. I have to be honest and say my life is on hold right now. Some things are changing beneath the surface, but they are minor. My emotional landscape hasn't change one bit in the last 6 weeks. Maybe the lows are a little lower but the same longing and love remain.

Thank you Once Removed for your consistent advice in this thread. I appreciate everything you say. I know it's not totally about BPD anymore and more about breakups in general, but no matter what it is it's hard for me to understand this experience. It was my first relationship and still is my first love.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

I can't imagine how people cope with breakups with "pfff, if she doesn't want me, good riddence!".

it isnt a mature way to cope with a breakup or rejection (its more like "they cant reject me, im rejecting them!"), and its shaming when you find that actually, you do love someone, even if they hurt you, and that it isnt good riddance, it hurts.

believe it or not, becoming more in touch with, aware of, and feeling your feelings is how you actually work through them.

A few day ago you and I talked about bumping into her again and I am struggling with this daily. It is definitely too early to do it. I know why I want to though. I feel like she is going to slip away, but then I remind myself that she already has.
Do I really have to fully detach from her and from idea of her? It seems impossible as long as I hope for reconciliation of any kind. I have to be honest and say my life is on hold right now. Some things are changing beneath the surface, but they are minor. My emotional landscape hasn't change one bit in the last 6 weeks. Maybe the lows are a little lower but the same longing and love remain.

and believe this or not, the path to reconciliation and the path to Detaching dont look all that different.

in both cases, its important to grieve the old relationship as if it died. you would want to treat any future iteration as a very different relationship, or to determine that its dead (broken) and you do not wish to resuscitate it.

in both cases, its important to learn the lessons of what went wrong in the old relationship; either to take into a future iteration, or to take into future relationships.

in both cases, its important to rebuild our lives on a stronger foundation.

you dont have to anything significantly different right now. certainly, you want to reach a point where you can cope with the situation, and that it isnt a significant detriment to your day to day life, and you can do that, but you dont have to force any decisions. when i came here, i very much wanted to reconcile. a few months later, although it broke my heart, that changed. i reached that point on my own, over time.

i think one thing that may help, is that it sounds like time is weighing on you and making everything feel urgent. from where im sitting, nothing is significantly changing day to day, and wont have changed significantly in a month or two.

she isnt slipping away. you will either reconcile, or you wont. a day or two, a week or two, a month or two, wont change that. if anything, it gives you the time to process and to affect change, and it does the same for her. thats a lot easier to see for someone not directly involved.

I know it's not totally about BPD anymore and more about breakups in general, but no matter what it is it's hard for me to understand this experience. It was my first relationship and still is my first love.

a bpd relationship is a special needs relationship. its like loving someone with OCD; there are particular things to know, particular sensitivities and proclivities that person may have, but relationships are still relationships, and human nature is still human nature. bpd ultimately doesnt have much to do with what makes a relationship work or not.

a first relationship and love though, are a particularly hard thing to grieve. know this: in the absolute worst case scenario (at least as far as how you feel today), you will work through the pain to the point that you cant even recognize it. on top of that, you can come away from it far stronger, more mature, better equipped, more knowledgeable, more confident in love, with an even greater capacity to give and receive love. it may feel impossible to imagine, but you are going to be okay, and better than okay, regardless of the outcome, if you work for it.

PS. when i would be in pain over imagining what my ex was thinking or feeling, it helped to remind myself that i ultimately had no way of knowing, good or bad. playlists can be misleading; just the other day i was in the best mood, listening to songs about nothing but heartbreak. im not saying you were wrong in what you read into it, but that it can actually be helpful to remind ourselves that we really have no idea what someone is thinking or feeling.

[ConfusedPolish]

Hi everyone!
Sooo, there's been a development.

Today my ex reached out to me after a little over a month after I sent her shot apology I mentioned in previous post. It makes it a little over 3 months after breakup.
Message:

Hey hey, I have a little question. Have you cleaned up the NYC photos yet? I was actually going through my phone recently and it occurred to me that the ones from the island(Statue of Liberty island) are missing. Would it be possible for you to send them to me if you still have them?

I said sure no problem and asked why was she going through the photos from our NYC trip.

Her answer was:

I'm tidying up my photos after the vacation and I figured maybe it's time to prune duplicates from other trips, too, because I haven't done that in a year, so my phone is a complete mess

Ye, she can be like that.

I asked her about sending me some photos from that trip because I was missing a few. She sent me some photos with us together hugging and smiling to the camera. I did the same.
After we shared them with each other she thanked me.
We did a really little smalltalk and that was that. It was a little stale. She asked a question. Told me that everything is fine and didn't answer a question where she went for her vacation. She left me on read after I mentioned I met my team in real life (I work from home as a programmer).

I really am trying not to read into it too much. Seriously.
It was not a reunion talk or anything like this at all. It was very polite and I kept it light not overwhelm her.
But the thing remains that she was going through our photos and asked for more.
I am not sure how to interpret this. It can be only about the photos and it's probably it because she kind of treated it like business. I didn't want to start any "serious" conversation.
I need to state the obvious that my brain is overly excited about this. I can high-five myself for keeping it cool enough.

I am not going to continue this convo tomorrow or any day soon. I am not sure I should be reaching out next time.
Of course I am hoping for establishing rapport, but my gut is telling me that it's not that. I know, I know ice thaws slowly.
Can this situation and her behavior be significant?
She can still be pursuing a relationship with a new guy. But I am asking myself I she would really ask for photos of her and us if she was in other relationship?

[once removed]

totally get where youre coming from on this  

i think you played it cool, and that your read on it seems right.

i can imagine the temptation to have done more. it was a good move to let it die where it did, and also not to force past the awkwardness or try to get heavy. there were about 1000 potential wrong moves any guy could have made, and especially in a case like this, not making them can have far more impact than any of the rest of the noise. not looking needy when given the opportunity cuts through everything.

the ol' business treatment is the kind of thing that anyone is going to read into. its easy to read too little. its easy to read too much.

you can sense that it would be over reacting to conclude "she wants me". you can also sense that it would be over reacting to conclude "she hates me". but its hard to really be "right" about anything beyond that.

if i were to read into it, i think that its telling that she didnt acknowledge your apology. it would be telling in a bad way if say, she didnt acknowledge the apology, and the message said something like "hey ex, im still getting your mail at my place, make it stop please". not acknowledging your apology, but at the same time reaching out to you to send her artifacts from the relationship is an interesting move. why not acknowledge your apology? well, she already didnt acknowledge it. why? she may have been apprehensive about it. when she did contact you, she clearly didnt want a heavy conversation, or even a closure one, so it made sense to skip past. she had her guard up. and yet, she let a request become a friendly, if awkward conversation.  

on the other hand, to drop the conversation when you mentioned meeting your team and dodging questions suggests she didnt want things to get deeper than they did. if shes apprehensive, youre sending the right signals by not chasing.

i might call it a "feeler". her reason for reaching out may have been her reason for reaching out, lets assume it was, but she went through the mental exercise of weighing the pros and cons of reaching out to an ex it ended badly with for relationship artifacts and went with it. it was a decision that she was led to make. the apology may or may have not have had something to do with that.

I know, I know ice thaws slowly.

life gave you new cards, and you played your best hand. there werent any missed opportunities; youd have been over playing your hand. if im in your position, its the sort of domino, to mix metaphors here, that id want to see fall when it comes to ice thawing.

but it does thaw slowly. the ball is in her court, but realistically, shes not likely to turn around and bounce it. and with the ball in her court, youre kind of waiting for another hand.

i think when it comes to her, youve probably earned the space to bounce back a "feeler" in a month or so if you wanted. i hesitate to do that when the ball is in someone elses court, but sometimes you gotta get the ball rolling (im killing myself with the metaphors tonight), and you have time to think about that.

besides, you werent expecting this development. things have a way of happening. its just good to have realistic expectations - in the best case scenario, this is still a long game.

how are you doing with the time, by the way?

[ConfusedPolish]

Thank you Once Removed for great reply

the ball is in her court, but realistically, shes not likely to turn around and bounce it. and with the ball in her court, youre kind of waiting for another hand.

Exactly. It sucks to be honest. She jumps in when she likes and I just went with it. It may look like I am just ready to be used again.
I know I shouldn't ignore her, but I am wondering if it was a good move to just give her the photos.

on the other hand, to drop the conversation when you mentioned meeting your team and dodging questions suggests she didnt want things to get deeper than they did. if shes apprehensive, youre sending the right signals by not chasing.

Even though I want validation from her (duh?) I didn't want to show it to her. Maybe I did it a little by provoking smalltalk after dealing with photos. I am not chasing. I am not double texting. But I would lie if I said I am not waiting for her message.

i think when it comes to her, youve probably earned the space to bounce back a "feeler" in a month or so if you wanted. i hesitate to do that when the ball is in someone elses court, but sometimes you gotta get the ball rolling (im killing myself with the metaphors tonight)
...
its just good to have realistic expectations - in the best case scenario, this is still a long game.

Yeah you are :D
I am still hesitant to be the one reaching out. Maybe in a month I will change my mind or maybe she changes her. The most probable things is she will let it go entirely and won't reach out at all. She got what she wanted. A friend suggested she was just reaching out to see if I am still hooked, to stroke her ego. Even if it's true I had to react somehow if I want to reconcile. The dynamic is still confusing even though I learned a lot about relationship/breaking up.
Her reaching out at this time was indeed unexpected. Way back when I imagined her reaching out I expected that she would need something, but asking for photos was not a thing I thought of. It may be a little domino falling but if I had to bet on it I would say it's not. At least for now.

how are you doing with the time, by the way?

Recently I've been through an anger phase. I spent a week being pissed at this whole situation, at her, at myself being needy and so on.
There is a girl I am sort of dating casually and I even was angry at her for not being my ex. And at myself for feeling this way.
I tried to let it go. No judgement.

But now it disappeared. Hope came back but I know it's traitorous. She set back my healing for quite a bit for sure. Maybe that was her intention. BPD or extreme anxious attachment style or not she is still a woman and has her womanly ways...
I know that some anger will come up again in a few days. And it will be about her not reaching out and stringing me along.
If we have another conversation in some time I will just tell her that I'd like to talk with her but I am not interested in doing it via IM. Let's have a call or a meet somewhere. It's scary and I need to be ready to walk away if she refuses.
Next few days will be crucial for my well being. I am ready to feel down and disappointment down the road.

Good thing is I already know this feeling of absolute necessity to do something. I've been dealing with it for 3 months.
After she texted I feel it strongly but I kind of can deal with it now. Let's see for how long.
There is also this need to know what she is thinking. Even if it's futile my mind is still trying to figure it our and solve the puzzle.

Thanks

[once removed]

She got what she wanted. A friend suggested she was just reaching out to see if I am still hooked, to stroke her ego.
...
But now it disappeared. Hope came back but I know it's traitorous. She set back my healing for quite a bit for sure. Maybe that was her intention. BPD or extreme anxious attachment style or not she is still a woman and has her womanly ways...
I know that some anger will come up again in a few days. And it will be about her not reaching out and stringing me along.

this doesnt have the makings of someone trying to stroke their ego, string you along, set back your healing, or otherwise hurt you.

if she wanted to stroke her ego, she had your apology already. i dont see what she "gets" out of messaging you for pictures from your relationship, other than the pictures she asked for. if she had any sort of malicious intent, her actions make no sense. if she wanted to string you along, she would have left some string.

as for womanly ways, you have to (try to) see this from her perspective.

youre in a situation where youre hanging on every word, every interaction, or lackthereof, every day, for weeks at a time. she just simply is not in that day to day, urgent kind of place. she may be giving it thought, but if she is, its not at that level. its not a bad thing in and of itself - though it doesnt feel great - its just the way things naturally are for a person in her position, who initiated what turned into a bad breakup and has tried to move on. so, everything feels far more consequential and urgent to you, than it does to her. its easy, in that position, to see the other person as "doing this to us", when theyre mostly just going about their business.

thats why shes unlikely to immediately turn around and follow up. youre thinking urgently in terms of a game plan, and what happens or doesnt happen next. she isnt. if she got something positive out of the exchange, it makes sense for her to be content with that for now than to pursue more.

as far as you know, things are playing out fairly predictably if youre trying to rebuild a connection. bump into each other and wave, somebody reaches out, somebody else reaches out. thats how ice thaws.

it wasnt unusual for her to ignore the apology for a time. it wasnt unusual for her to then find a reason to reach out a month later - i suggested that might happen. it wasnt unusual for that reach out to be polite but still distant and awkward.

its just that what that ultimately represents, might or might not become, is impossible to say. even if it went as well as it possibly could, and it made an impression on her, its also entirely possible that that wouldnt weigh on her mind for more than a day or so. or maybe it will, and she will take the initiative to test the waters sooner than youd think. it could go a lot of ways, but you did the best you could with it that you could.

complicating this further is her relationship status, or lackthereof. if she is in one, it could partly explain not responding to your apology, and it could explain why she kept her distance (even if the ice is thawing at the same time). on the other hand, if she isnt, or she was but isnt now, it could also explain those things.

Recently I've been through an anger phase. I spent a week being pissed at this whole situation, at her, at myself being needy and so on.
There is a girl I am sort of dating casually and I even was angry at her for not being my ex. And at myself for feeling this way.
I tried to let it go. No judgement.

But now it disappeared. Hope came back but I know it's traitorous. She set back my healing for quite a bit for sure.

it sounds like youve tried to get your mind off of her, and i think doing that in general is a good idea. it has given you some data points; you may not be in a good place for even casual dating. you may want to find other sources of connection and things to invest in that dont frustrate you.

on one hand, youre willingly putting yourself in a position that, even in the best case scenario, would test anyone. on the other, to cope with that, you want to try to emotionally detach (even if you want to reconcile) in a way that it doesnt interfere with your day to day living. to have things to focus on, to look forward to, and markers to look at of progress in your life. yeah, its a waiting game, but you dont want to be stuck in waiting mode, either, especially if it may take a long time between developments.

i would give myself a few days to bounce back and see where i am. id behave as if i wont hear from her soon (doesnt mean you wont, but we are also approaching the holidays, people are busy), and id try to pour my focus into, and develop a new life game plan, while, in my back pocket, thinking of what, if anything, i want to do in a month or so.

[ConfusedPolish]

Thanks OR,
Just so you know, your insights are really helpful to me.

I am starting to feel disappointment creeping in. To be frank it's more like feeling of having been used. But let's not drown in self-pity here.

this doesnt have the makings of someone trying to stroke their ego, string you along, set back your healing, or otherwise hurt you.

if she wanted to stroke her ego, she had your apology already. i dont see what she "gets" out of messaging you for pictures from your relationship, other than the pictures she asked for. if she had any sort of malicious intent, her actions make no sense. if she wanted to string you along, she would have left some string.

Perspective from outside is always precious and makes me stop and think a little.
The reason why I feel like this may come from the fact that I showed her I am still available to her and am ready to give her what she wants. And she didn't even had to say "how are you?", address anything that had happened or anything like that. She didn't give me anything, just a request. Now I low-key regret that I didn't stand up for myself. But it would be confrontational and would make things worse.
Maybe I expected too much. I am aware that I probably did.

it wasnt unusual for her to ignore the apology for a time. it wasnt unusual for her to then find a reason to reach out a month later - i suggested that might happen. it wasnt unusual for that reach out to be polite but still distant and awkward.

It just looks to me like she just doesn't care about my feelings at all. I know she doesn't have to. I don't mean that she should be responsive, thank me for apologizing to her or anything like that. I just wanna say that reaching out to an ex whom you dumped and damaged badly should include "I know it's been hard for you" or "Hey how are you doing these days?" at least. But that's anger talking probably.
Since your suggestions are so accurate maybe you have some predictions for me now too? :D
just kidding.

even if it went as well as it possibly could, and it made an impression on her, its also entirely possible that that wouldnt weigh on her mind for more than a day or so. or maybe it will, and she will take the initiative to test the waters sooner than youd think

This is exactly what I am worried about. That I don't occupy any space in her mind and the reason why she contacted me yesterday was to obtain some photos. It's just feels like being cleaned up.

it sounds like youve tried to get your mind off of her, and i think doing that in general is a good idea.

Yes, I do some healthy stuff too. Bouldering, gym, swimming sometimes. But it's all surrounded by the same thoughts I've had for over 3 months. Stalking her Spotify doesn't help. I know I need to stop that. Oh and there are friends. Lots of them. I am not alone in this, but nobody can kill my thoughts or hopes to be honest.
Developments will be slow if any. I need to either be super patient or just make it lower priority somehow.
Creating a new plan for life is in progress. I am not thinking about giving up life because of her, but my motivations are all over the place and I'm just tired controlling them all at the same time.

Thanks OR

[once removed]

The reason why I feel like this may come from the fact that I showed her I am still available to her and am ready to give her what she wants. And she didn't even had to say "how are you?", address anything that had happened or anything like that. She didn't give me anything, just a request. Now I low-key regret that I didn't stand up for myself. But it would be confrontational and would make things worse.

i think a lot of men get into a situation like this, and feel like they are in a competition when theyre not.

1. you are available to her, and if you want her back, you want to at least hint at that. you dont want to get down on your knees and profess your undying love, but you want her to entertain the possibility, right?

2. what was there to "stand up" against? she asked for some photos.

3. doing so would have been confrontational, yes, and needy, and it would have made your apology look conditional, or like a way to get her back. it is very possible that she was/is apprehensive about your apology, and was testing it. if she was, you passed with flying colors.

4. sure, it sticks in your craw that she didnt acknowledge your apology or inquire about your life, and it would most people, but its easy to understand why she wouldnt do those things if you put yourself in her shoes.

5. people generally dont sit around and think of ways to keep other people on a hook. sure, it happens, but when it does, it doesnt look like this. thats usually where you get into stuff like friend zones and orbiters. that isnt happening.

6. if you feel like a little  who looks weak and too available, yeah, i think that thats probably more expectations and anger talking. apologizing costs nothing, and does not make you look weak (unless of course you apologize for things you shouldnt, or beg, etc). not getting bent out of shape over "hey, can you send me some pictures" looks cool and easy going, no sweat. "how dare you not acknowledge my feelings", in this case at least, does not.

7. we tend to carry a lot of feelings after a bad breakup, and usually the person who hurt us is the one we want to validate us the most. thats usually just not realistic. she clearly didnt want a heavy, who hurt who and how, revisit the relationship conversation, and thats not only understandable, but its not necessarily a bad thing. how would you have felt if she did acknowledge your apology, and you had a nice chat about it and made up, but she made it crystal clear that there would be no getting back together, and that the relationship was dead? because thats probably where you were headed if she had.

maybe you have some predictions for me now too? :D

i dont currently. theres not a good way to predict how this goes, or if it goes at all, only that it potentially created space for more. what happens next, if anything, just isnt the kind of thing thats predictable. it will likely catch you off guard like this exchange did.

This is exactly what I am worried about. That I don't occupy any space in her mind and the reason why she contacted me yesterday was to obtain some photos. It's just feels like being cleaned up.

that is a real possibility that you should certainly consider, but at the risk of reading too much into it, i think she probably had more consideration than "just obtaining photos". more thought goes into that sort of thing. she would have likely considered that she did not respond to your apology and was now asking for something, which is kind of a risky thing to do. dealing with an ex that things ended badly with is not something most people want to do. certainly they dont want a bunch of positive memories of the relationship from said ex, unless that ice is thawing.

contacting you for the photos was an easy way to check in and feel things out if shes curious.

make it lower priority somehow.

its hard to do this. i remember after my breakup, i still had hope, but she was in a new relationship, and that had to play out. i remember thinking i needed to focus on me, and building my life, but doing that felt like it revolved around her, like sure i was doing those things, but not for the sake of doing them, it was with her in mind.

thats normal, for a time. it takes time to adjust and sink into a new normal. the more you plug away, the more that happens. its kind of like watching water boil. the more focus you have on it, the longer it seems to take, even if things are taking their natural course.

you also might try, as youre able, setting limits on how often/how much you think about her. the goal being not to move on necessarily, but to get her out of your day to day life and head, so youre not "waiting on water to boil". not checking social media would definitely help with that. it just primes you to feel stuck in what may be a slow crawl.

[ConfusedPolish]

Hi OR, Thank you,
I reread your last reply at least 5 times.

I went to a friend's birthday party yesterday. This friend was a common friend of my and my ex. She was invited.
That friend told me she declined the invitation because wouldn't be in the city at that time. She said she wouldnt come a few days before she reached out to me about the photos. I know that this common friend of ours is not that important to her and she wasn't going to go to the birthday party when I asked her a few months ago. So it doesn't mean she didn't go because of me but I guess my being there didn't help also.

would give myself a few days to bounce back and see where i am.

So far I am not experiencing any bouncing back. To be honest it feels like breakup over again. I would lie if I said I am coping with this. I am pissed at myself because I let two minor events of last 3 days totally derail me emotionally. I have this feeling of this to be the ultimate end to us talking ever again. It looks like she was detached enough to ask for photos in "logistical" manner. It doesn't bode well.

I know I should be a little bit proud of myself because I handled conversation with her fairly well and positively, but I feel almost crushed by the amount of hope it instilled in me.
It's ridiculous.

i think she probably had more consideration than "just obtaining photos". more thought goes into that sort of thing. she would have likely considered that she did not respond to your apology and was now asking for something, which is kind of a risky thing to do.

She is not an overthinker like me. I think it didn't feel risky for her to ask about the photos. Of course she made a polite request with questions and all, but as far as I know her she just sent me a message when she realized she wanted those photos.

contacting you for the photos was an easy way to check in and feel things out if shes curious.

If she wanted to check in... It feels like she didn't.
I've read somewhere that quite a few dumpers goes through something called curiosity stage after the breakup. I would like that to be the case because it would mean there is a way to anticipate and predict her behavior. But to be honest I doubt she is curious. On the other hand I hope she is.

5. people generally dont sit around and think of ways to keep other people on a hook. sure, it happens, but when it does, it doesnt look like this. thats usually where you get into stuff like friend zones and orbiters. that isnt happening.

When we were together there was a guy who was an orbiter of hers and she totally disliked him the moment she realized was pining for her trying to squirm his way in. She blocked him on instagram. The same was she did to me after she requested for a break in August .
It sucks that now I am treated the same way as this guy.

how would you have felt if she did acknowledge your apology, and you had a nice chat about it and made up, but she made it crystal clear that there would be no getting back together, and that the relationship was dead? because thats probably where you were headed if she had.

I thought a lot about this particular topic. She could've make it clear again that it's over but it probably is so obvious in her mind that there is no need to repeat herself.

She made it clear once when she broke up with me.
1. She said it together with all hurtful stuff like "We couldn't create healthy relationship for a year. It was painful since the beginning. I cried because of you from the start".
2. At the end of a breakup call she blurted something like "maybe in 4-5 months we will be able to meet". I doubt she even remembers she said that.
3. 5 weeks after breakup when I asked her to get her items she wrote "it's not a good idea to meet NOW". To be fair she was right because my emotions where all over the place. It ended awkwardly bad with her saying "I am seeing someone".  (this meeting was strictly business)
4. Then she unblocked me.
5. Now she asks for photos, but it I am fairly certain that it doesn't trigger a thought in her mind saying "He will probably think that it will lead somewhere". For her it's a done deal I think. (this was business too)
I know I am reaching desperately to find any clues that she is willing to meet but they are not there if I am being honest. If this conversation about photos didn't happen 3 days ago there wouldn't be any movement between us.
Only point 4 and 5 can be interpreted positively but it doesn't really matter. I know it doesn't show any meaningful change towards me. It's my delusion and denial speaking. (I am still in that stage after almost 4 months, it's sick)

you also might try, as youre able, setting limits on how often/how much you think about her.

I understand the meaning of these words but it feels impossible. It has all to do with my lack of acceptance that there is no way we end up together again.
I don't know if hope is fulled by denial or the other way around, but of those things are very much alive inside my head.
My friends and family repeatedly tell me that this relationship would be miserable in the future but even those words do not hit the target. I feel like a hopeless case tbh. I need give it some more time because it's my first heartbreak and I don't know sh*t about handling this. Even with all the support in the world I have.

[once removed]

It has all to do with my lack of acceptance that there is no way we end up together again.

when i arrived here, thirteen years ago, i was in a similar position.

not identical circumstances, but i wanted her back, or at least i wasnt ready for it to be over. she was very much in another relationship, and we were not on friendly terms. there wasnt anything that i could do but wait, or move on, and i wasnt ready to move on. i gave it three months - the vast majority of relationships end around three months - then i gave it six, and it was around that point i decided that it wasnt coming back to me, and enough of me didnt want it to. id been a total basket case all along, but it was only then that i really grieved the relationship.

part of your suffering is existing in this mental place of being between hope and grief. part of it is from having little to no control over the situation.

its a very, very difficult place to be. if you have chosen this path, you have to go into it with eyes wide open, a plan, good support, and strong mental health. you have to be realistic about how it can or will play out, and know that in the best case scenario, the success rate is relatively low and there are no guarantees.

at the same time, you havent "chosen" this path. you want to reconcile. its how you feel. how you feel can change, and you can take steps to affect that, but right now, "i want to reconcile" is where you are.

while youre doing everything you can do for that to happen, there are no guarantees.

the hard part is coping with your feelings.

one of the most important things is to actually grieve the old relationship. to consider it dead, and to mourn it and grieve it.

im not sure youve done that part. its complicated to try and lose hope in the relationship, while at the same time, having hope in a completely new iteration of the relationship. it is achievable, but very difficult emotionally.

part of doing that, accepting that the old relationship is over, is understanding how and why it ended. if you can examine the relationship in a detached way, and see that it was broken, then its easier to see and accept that it would have ended one way or another. you feel differently about things when you detach. when my breakup happened, it felt so sudden and out of nowhere, and that was part of the biggest shock. after detaching from the pain, i could see that it was dying for at least a year - a thought i couldnt even entertain before. and now, i can see that we had our time, but were never meant to be, and i dont miss her - its ancient history now. your perspective changes.

1. She said it together with all hurtful stuff like "We couldn't create healthy relationship for a year. It was painful since the beginning. I cried because of you from the start".

i know you have disagreed with this, and consider it an exaggeration; it may be. but it is worth considering and examining her perspective, because whether or not its accurate, it is/was her perspective, and it is why she is in an emotionally different place than you. because she, in part, mourned and grieved the relationship already. people in that place do sometimes reconcile a relationship, but it is in part why shes not particularly consumed with this, and you are.

because on some level, your feelings, your longing for reconciliation, are less about her, and more about salving your pain. about reversing the sense of rejection you feel. everything would be great if she came back; youd be out of this limbo, everything she said before would still be true, and that breakup would be reversed. except what broke the relationship would still be there.

part of coping with all of this, is facing that. that what youre really hoping for, on some level, is for the return of that old relationship - that dead relationship.

when you are able to let go of that, you can start thinking about the practical reality of a possible new relationship. what would need to happen in order for it to not break in the same way it did before? is it possible? what were the problems she brought to the relationship? could they change, and how? can you live with them if they didnt change? what problems did you bring to the relationship? how would they change? were the problems primarily brought by one party, or was it a case of the two of you being a bad fit/rubbing each other the wrong way?

if you were unhappy in the relationship, dont lose sight of that. its easy to put a person on a pedestal when they break up with us. spend time concentrating on that, and whether its truly what you want. if it is, consider whether she can offer that, or if the two of you have the "right stuff" to make it happen.

quite a few dumpers goes through something called curiosity stage after the breakup.

you may be right, that she just called for the photos, didnt think much of it, has no further plans. you know her best, and you have a better feel for her.

at the same time, if you were on the trajectory to reconcile the relationship, it wouldnt look different than it does now.

curiosity often doesnt grow into more, can be easily satisfied with one phone call, and when it does grow into more, it can take time and luck, like chance encounters at the bus stop. for example, if she was unconsciously expecting you to be needy or chase her, and that didnt happen, she would have noticed that and it would have affected her - but that doesnt automatically translate into "man, i really want to pursue this relationship that we tried but couldnt make work, and that ive been removed from now for months". it translates into "hm. i wasnt expecting that". can that turn into more? yes, but not always, and usually slowly.

Even with all the support in the world I have.

i say all of this to suggest that you do have power here, and choices. how you feel is how you feel, but you can, and should, take steps to affect how you feel.

you mentioned youre in all kinds of therapy. how is that going? are you discussing any of this with them? getting any feedback or coping tools?

[Caleb91]

Hi once removed, I’m curious, when you finally started to grieve the relationship around the six month mark, did she ever return? Maybe you had already moved on by that point, but I’m curious if your ex ever did come around.

I’m in a similar situation as ConfusedPolish, though further from my breakup, holding on to hope. I’m very interested in the stories of when exes do or don’t come back, and the timelines. I totally hear what you’re saying about needing to accept that it’s over and start a new relationship if the opportunity presents itself, but still that hope of the opportunity is ever-present.

[once removed]

did she ever return?

no. they were together for around four years. i moved on.

[SnailShell]

I haven’t read all of these posts, because they’re quite long; but here’s a take after reading through some of them:

I’d really try to prioritise clarity at all costs.

This ‘She text me… what does it mean…?’ business; or this ‘I sent her an apology, and she didn’t acknowledge it - why?’ stuff…

For me… it’s a “no”.

If you apologise to someone, you’re saying something direct and purposeful with the intention of healing something about the relationship - or else healing some wrong that needs to be righted.

If they don’t acknowledge that, but instigate some unclear contact which could have any number of interpretations, and it leaves you feeling confused? It’s a no.

In situations like this, clarity is everything; and confusion will keep you on the hook, without even being able to suss out what you should be feeling and why - because it’s all reliant on the other person to set the pace etc.

If you apologise, and you want clarity; ask for it.

It doesn’t have to be intense, and you don’t have to harass anyone; but those are your needs and your requirements in this relational situation - and your needs and requirements matter as much as her’s.

You’re on confusing, rocky, shaky ground and it feels to me as though you need to take the lead in your own life.

You’ve apologised.

If she can’t meet you in that place, talk with you on that level, or settle herself with enough clarity to communicate fully and openly; she’s the wrong fit for you and she’s probably not healed enough (or the right personality enough) to ever be right.

Look for clarity, set boundaries in your own mind (even if you don’t go and tell her those proactively), and set the pace in your own life.

I can’t say it clearly enough - confusion = bad; clarity = good.

If you’ve communicated clearly to her, and you’re not getting that back?

No. It’s wrong.

Move on to someone who can give you what you need in a relationship.

(And by the way - she wanted intimate photos of you cuddling etc? I don’t know her, but I think most people would feel that that’s layered with meaning, and that there’s a likelihood of some kind of coded messaging.

I think most people would feel that she’d be wanting you to remember your time with her, and she’s showing you that she remembers it too.

Which is a fairly classic ‘rekindling feelings’ move.

BUT - you’ve given her clarity, she’s given you confusion - if there’s no substance, no directness and no clear messaging, you can’t build trust and you’re not even connecting properly anyway.

Don’t get stuck on the hook.

Move on until the unlikely day that she’s able to communicate in an adult, clear way which honours you as a person with important needs and feelings.

It really is THAT simple, imo)

[ConfusedPolish]

part of your suffering is existing in this mental place of being between hope and grief. part of it is from having little to no control over the situation.

It's exactly true. I feel that lack of control every time I think about her.

one of the most important things is to actually grieve the old relationship. to consider it dead, and to mourn it and grieve it.

I've heard it some many times in different place from different people and I know it's true. Problem is I know old relationship is dead, but I also know that if new iteration of relationship could ever happen I would like it to have elements from old relationship.
My mourning seems interrupted by hope but it's bound to happen.

or was it a case of the two of you being a bad fit/rubbing each other the wrong way?

We could rub each other the wrong way, but we also could soothe each other perfectly.

if you were unhappy in the relationship, dont lose sight of that. its easy to put a person on a pedestal when they break up with us.

I was occasionally unhappy, but I realized that I was responsible for much of this unhappiness. After the first breakup I tried really hard not to repeat my mistakes. It didn't matter in the end.

you mentioned youre in all kinds of therapy. how is that going? are you discussing any of this with them? getting any feedback or coping tools?

I have a lot of feedback from friend, therapist, support group. I discuss with them what is going on. Quite a few of them tell me to block her and just disappear. But I am not ready to do it. Some people around me say that her asking for photos like this shows that she doesn't care about my feelings and that it's some kind of low effort game.
Some try to ground me to make me think realistically.
Of course my therapist knows the most about the situation and she told me a few times that her behavior just before breakup and during the breakup was narcissistic and very indicative of cluster B disorders. Maybe that's the reason I am looking into her behavior so deeply. I want to decipher it. But I also know that living in fantasy like this achieves nothing.
My coping skills are actually quite ok, but I have a lot of maladaptive ones too. Like the ones I mentioned: checking her activity on communicators and Spotify. They dont balance each other out

i say all of this to suggest that you do have power here, and choices.

My choice is to have comfortable/happy life like I used to have before her but right now it feels like it's out of reach for the time being.
I know I have a power to just walk away mentally from this whole thing. I just don't know how yet. I am disappointed writing this.

[ConfusedPolish]

Hi SnailShell, Thank you for your reply

I haven’t read all of these posts, because they’re quite long; but here’s a take after reading through some of them:

I’d really try to prioritise clarity at all costs.

This ‘She text me… what does it mean…?’ business; or this ‘I sent her an apology, and she didn’t acknowledge it - why?’ stuff…

For me… it’s a “no”.

If you apologise to someone, you’re saying something direct and purposeful with the intention of healing something about the relationship - or else healing some wrong that needs to be righted.

If they don’t acknowledge that, but instigate some unclear contact which could have any number of interpretations, and it leaves you feeling confused? It’s a no.

Almost two weeks passed since she asked for photos I can think more clearly about this and I can say that this contact was quite clear for her. She just wanted photos. She stated her purpose in the first message so I couldn't have had any reason to misinterpret her intentions. Nevertheless it left me confused. If I asked for clarity now it would look like I was fishing for something more.

In situations like this, clarity is everything; and confusion will keep you on the hook, without even being able to suss out what you should be feeling and why - because it’s all reliant on the other person to set the pace etc.
...
If you apologise, and you want clarity; ask for it.

I am afraid to reach out because it would kill any hope that I still have if she shuts me down. I need to be ready for rejection if I am to do this. That's why I don't reach out after the apology I sent. Letting go of hope has to happen eventually because I can't live on the hook like this forever. In this scenario she sets the pace. You are right.

(And by the way - she wanted intimate photos of you cuddling etc? I don’t know her, but I think most people would feel that that’s layered with meaning, and that there’s a likelihood of some kind of coded messaging.
I think most people would feel that she’d be wanting you to remember your time with her, and she’s showing you that she remembers it too.
Which is a fairly classic ‘rekindling feelings’ move.
BUT - you’ve given her clarity, she’s given you confusion - if there’s no substance, no directness and no clear messaging, you can’t build trust and you’re not even connecting properly anyway.

First thing she asked if I deleted our photos from the trip to NYC. It seemed to me like she was asking if I removed all traces of her in my life. But maybe I'm wrong.
She didn't ask for any cuddly pictures. She asked for photos from our trip to Statue of Liberty.
There were some photos of me, her and us together. I sent them all, whole set from that day.
But before I sent them I asked for some other photos from this trip that she had. She agreed and sent the photos from a very romantic walk of us smiling to the camera(in addition of some sights she took pictures of).
Maybe it was deliberate or she just clicked 'select all' and sent. I don't know if it can be taken as 'rekindling' move. Especially given her silence after that conversation.
As you can see even in this scenario I am eager to find some meaning in her actions.
The only clarity I got from her was "hey, do you have photos I need them". The only uncertainty for me is the photos she sent me and the fact she looked at the whole album from our trip. I assumed some nostalgia must have awakened in her. But even this she explained with "I came back from vacation and wanted to organize my photos. I noticed I don't have those so can you send them?"
It's hard not to notice the shift from "everything was bad' to "I want photos from our trip", but if anything is clear it's the fact that she didn't push the conversation.
Question I have is: What's important in this?
The fact that she reached out at all?
The fact that she sent me those photos of us from the walk?
The fact that she was interested in having those pictures in the first place?
Or the fact that she kept it business-like and nothing else?

Thanks SnailShell for you input. I appreciate it.

[Mrparsnip]

No offense man. But you don't sound like someone that's going to therapy 2 days a week. You still seem very anxious about everything that's going on that you can't control.

I'm the same so please don't take that to heart. But then I'm not at the therapy stage yet.

Send me a pm if ya wanna chat around a few things. I'm having a simular issue at the moment with my Ex and have had her come back a few times only to mess up again. I've seen all these things your ex is doing. I got a text out of no where last breakup. "Hey there are 4 screws missing out of my laptop" you must have forgotten to put them in while you where fixing last time. I've heard all excuses but doesn't mean I'm still not anxious when she discards me again.

[SnailShell]

Hi SnailShell, Thank you for your reply
Almost two weeks passed since she asked for photos I can think more clearly about this and I can say that this contact was quite clear for her. She just wanted photos. She stated her purpose in the first message so I couldn't have had any reason to misinterpret her intentions. Nevertheless it left me confused. If I asked for clarity now it would look like I was fishing for something more.
I am afraid to reach out because it would kill any hope that I still have if she shuts me down. I need to be ready for rejection if I am to do this. That's why I don't reach out after the apology I sent. Letting go of hope has to happen eventually because I can't live on the hook like this forever. In this scenario she sets the pace. You are right.

First thing she asked if I deleted our photos from the trip to NYC. It seemed to me like she was asking if I removed all traces of her in my life. But maybe I'm wrong.
She didn't ask for any cuddly pictures. She asked for photos from our trip to Statue of Liberty.
There were some photos of me, her and us together. I sent them all, whole set from that day.
But before I sent them I asked for some other photos from this trip that she had. She agreed and sent the photos from a very romantic walk of us smiling to the camera(in addition of some sights she took pictures of).
Maybe it was deliberate or she just clicked 'select all' and sent. I don't know if it can be taken as 'rekindling' move. Especially given her silence after that conversation.
As you can see even in this scenario I am eager to find some meaning in her actions.
The only clarity I got from her was "hey, do you have photos I need them". The only uncertainty for me is the photos she sent me and the fact she looked at the whole album from our trip. I assumed some nostalgia must have awakened in her. But even this she explained with "I came back from vacation and wanted to organize my photos. I noticed I don't have those so can you send them?"
It's hard not to notice the shift from "everything was bad' to "I want photos from our trip", but if anything is clear it's the fact that she didn't push the conversation.
Question I have is: What's important in this?
The fact that she reached out at all?
The fact that she sent me those photos of us from the walk?
The fact that she was interested in having those pictures in the first place?
Or the fact that she kept it business-like and nothing else?

Thanks SnailShell for you input. I appreciate it.

Hey Polish

I'll just break down a few things that stood out to me in your message - see what you think:

Firstly, you said something to the effect of -

'With reflection, I see that she was just asking for photos'

--------- Okay - sure.
Maybe it's cultural, or maybe it's an age thing; but to me - getting in contact with your ex for *any* reason is opening the door for a conversation of some kind.

Okay, if your ex was abusive, and you want to know when you can pick up your car keys, that's one thing.

If your ex wants photos? I mean... photos. *Photos*.

Come on - these aren't essential items; it's not necessary to have them.

If you're asking your ex for them, it suggests that you're on some kind of nice terms with them.

If you're on nice terms, you're still relating in at least some way.

If you're still relating in at least some way, you have to accept that at least one person will have conflicted feelings about that.

Thus you have to be really sensitive in this situation - and if she's not able to/doesn't have capacity to be sensitive enough towards you at this time; she's being a bit unfair.

But we don't know that's the case - we only know that she's asked for photos, and you feel conflicted.

What it *does* mean, is that you don't have to sit there trying desperately to be perfect so that she doesn't leave; all the while allowing her as much as slack as she needs to kinda... do whatever she likes.

You're in this too. There's two of you. It *has* to work for you as well, or else it's really unhealthy for you.

We all have give and take in our relationships; but that's not what this is.

Look after your wellbeing as a priority; set the standard high for how you need to be treated, and see if she can match that standard. If she can't, find someone who can.

That's painful in the short term, but you get what you accept in life; and it sounds like you can benefit from accepting a higher standard for yourself.

------- 'I'm afraid to reach out because it would kill any hope...'

I'm not here to tell you what to do (I'm a stranger on the internet), but y'know... giving someone time and space to come around is okIay; if they know that's what you're doing and you're structuring the time with a definite end point.

I'd avoid holding onto hope indefinitely - it's the hope that will hurt most, perhaps.

Fine, if the space is strategic, tactical, and it's a genuine, thought-through decision - okay.

If you're in denial, and you need clarity asap so that you can move forward?
It's good to not put that off for too long.


------- Look at your list of 'What's important in all of this?' questions at the end there.

I notice not one of those questions was "What do I want and need in this situation; in my life; and in my life partner?"

THAT is the REALLY IMPORTANT question!!

*That's* the important question in all of this.

That one.

------

After my BPD relationship - I realised something:

I'd accepted far less than my worth.

Not because my ex wasn't a really lovely, valuable person; but because she couldn't partner with me.

She needed to heal - a lot.

And I want/need an equal partner.

So - a new life rule for me:

If someone has a history of complex trauma, a severe mental health condition, a personality disorder, or an addiction; they *need* to show me - through a slow, structured relationship, that they're absolutely responsible for healing - and that they've already done a lot of that healing work already.

Otherwise it's an automatic no (that boundary helps them too by the way - by impressing upon them the urgent need to prioritise their wellbeing).

Actually, that's pretty true in any future relationship - regardless of how people describe themselves.

And I now set a high standard for my own healing, growth and development too - no excuses from me

I think that's the best way to learn, grow and move forward from this kind of situation.


Anyway - those are my thoughts, feel free to take or leave them.

But either way - please look after yourself - you matter

[ConfusedPolish]

No offense man. But you don't sound like someone that's going to therapy 2 days a week. You still seem very anxious about everything that's going on that you can't control.

I'm the same so please don't take that to heart. But then I'm not at the therapy stage yet.

Send me a pm if ya wanna chat around a few things. I'm having a simular issue at the moment with my Ex and have had her come back a few times only to mess up again. I've seen all these things your ex is doing. I got a text out of no where last breakup. "Hey there are 4 screws missing out of my laptop" you must have forgotten to put them in while you where fixing last time. I've heard all excuses but doesn't mean I'm still not anxious when she discards me again.

No offense taken. I appreciate the concern. I know I'm a mess. I am way to sensitive about all this.
If I got the message about 4 screws I would probably be more sure that it was to open contact. In my situation it was perfectly disguised with a practical reason. But it could the real reason all along.
And like you I am still anxious of potential rejection.

--------- Okay - sure.
Maybe it's cultural, or maybe it's an age thing; but to me - getting in contact with your ex for *any* reason is opening the door for a conversation of some kind.
Okay, if your ex was abusive, and you want to know when you can pick up your car keys, that's one thing.
If your ex wants photos? I mean... photos. *Photos*.
Come on - these aren't essential items; it's not necessary to have them.
If you're asking your ex for them, it suggests that you're on some kind of nice terms with them.
If you're on nice terms, you're still relating in at least some way.
If you're still relating in at least some way, you have to accept that at least one person will have conflicted feelings about that.

Yes, exactly. It's about "photos". That's the sole reason I am suspicious if it was indeed a reach out. She didn't need them to live her life anyway.
I don't exactly know on what terms we are. We had bad breakup. Then we had bad encounter when I basically begged and said some hurtful things.
Since the breakup we didn't have a conversation you would call normal. But now she broke no contact in a confusing way.

Thus you have to be really sensitive in this situation - and if she's not able to/doesn't have capacity to be sensitive enough towards you at this time; she's being a bit unfair.
But we don't know that's the case - we only know that she's asked for photos, and you feel conflicted.
What it *does* mean, is that you don't have to sit there trying desperately to be perfect so that she doesn't leave; all the while allowing her as much as slack as she needs to kinda... do whatever she likes.
You're in this too. There's two of you. It *has* to work for you as well, or else it's really unhealthy for you.

Well put. I am afraid that if I reach out to her it will not be perfect. She may just tell me "You know, we shouldn't be talking right now".
In my journal I wrote down what is happening inside me and what I want from next conversation.
I see that my expectations are unrealistic. In summary I want to see some emotional connection but it's out of my control.

What I'd like to know the most is if I can consider this situation as an opening for me.
Of course I would like to talk about my confusion about the photos, but I don't want to be confrontational or open old wounds.
If I reach out casually and push towards something more that smalltalk I will push her away.
It's funny I still think I can push her farther away given the fact that we are broken up and didn't have any normal interaction for 4 months.
To be honest I stayed in no contact with hope she will miss me and I feel that push towards verification if her reach out about photos is about that.
I gave her two weeks of space. I am trying to decide if there is a point in waiting longer for her to reach out again or for me to finally feel ok with me texting her.

------- 'I'm afraid to reach out because it would kill any hope...'
I'm not here to tell you what to do (I'm a stranger on the internet), but y'know... giving someone time and space to come around is okIay; if they know that's what you're doing and you're structuring the time with a definite end point.
I'd avoid holding onto hope indefinitely - it's the hope that will hurt most, perhaps.
Fine, if the space is strategic, tactical, and it's a genuine, thought-through decision - okay.
If you're in denial, and you need clarity asap so that you can move forward?
It's good to not put that off for too long.

I was told by many people that clinging to hope is self-destructive. I am getting closer and closer to pop that balloon by reaching out to her, because It looks like I can't do it on my own.

I notice not one of those questions was "What do I want and need in this situation; in my life; and in my life partner?"
THAT is the REALLY IMPORTANT question!!
...
After my BPD relationship - I realised something:
I'd accepted far less than my worth.
Not because my ex wasn't a really lovely, valuable person; but because she couldn't partner with me.
She needed to heal - a lot.
And I want/need an equal partner.

My ex also needs to heal. She has a lot of unresolved issues but she is in therapy. I gently pushed her to go to therapy and she still goes there weekly.
But during my therapy I also learned that not all problems stemmed from her issues. I can say that my behavior caused the cracks in our relationship. I was not mature enough even by my standards.
I also want an equal partner and we were a great team. She was also supportive and I know her emotional exhaustion didn't come from thin air. I acknowledged my responsibility in this. Occasionally she showed that she tried to acknowledge hers.

[once removed]

I am trying to decide if there is a point in waiting longer for her to reach out again or for me to finally feel ok with me texting her.

some things are hard to explain.

i can think back to lots of times where i was in a similar position. maybe i was courting a girl, and not sure where i stood, or maybe things were fizzling out. or maybe a case where i was trying to resurrect a dying friendship.

id wait things out, but be too anxious to cope. eventually, id decide that it was worth saying "something", just to get it over with and know, one way or the other.

i cant think of a single time that ever went the way i wanted it to. maybe when a person is coming from that position, theyre unconsciously setting themselves up to be rejected. maybe its strictly my experience.

but im not a fan of acting in any way where my anxiety is driving my actions. if anything, the message i take from the anxiety is that im not ready, and its best to wait.

sure, on paper, its appropriate for you to reach out; she opened that door. it may even be necessary to move the ball any further (i think at 2 weeks since she reached out, youre really only now entering the window where i would expect her to).

at the same time, it seems and sounds to me that what is mainly driving you is the anxiety and desire to know something one way or the other.

i simply wouldnt do it unless/until i felt confident about it, and what i wanted to say. unless it was a no brainer. "i have this idea and i want to send it to her". youll know if and when it happens. it will be inspired, and it wont be complicated.

sure, you could come up with a low risk, innocuous reason to reach out, or high risk where you push for clarity, and if she let you down, youd lick your wounds but youd have clarity and probably start to move on.

but you dont have to force that interaction in order to do that. the mental/emotional decision to move on is something we can all do when its what we want to do.

I am getting closer and closer to pop that balloon by reaching out to her, because It looks like I can't do it on my own.

dont outsource your emotional standing to her, or to someone else. the hard work of building a self that can stand on our own, with full agency, is the most rewarding part of this process.

its easy to feel anxious when we feel like someone else is in control of that. she isnt.

I was not mature enough even by my standards.

its good that you see this. its key, whether you want to reconcile, or to move on.

for perspective on all of this, youre really still beginning that journey of becoming that more mature version of yourself. when a day or a week feels like an eternity, and a sign that youll never hear from her again, keep that in perspective. thats where you focus your energy. that more mature version of you is the guy that will be able to handle whatever happens.

[SnailShell]

No offense taken. I appreciate the concern. I know I'm a mess. I am way to sensitive about all this.
If I got the message about 4 screws I would probably be more sure that it was to open contact. In my situation it was perfectly disguised with a practical reason. But it could the real reason all along.
And like you I am still anxious of potential rejection.
Yes, exactly. It's about "photos". That's the sole reason I am suspicious if it was indeed a reach out. She didn't need them to live her life anyway.

Yeah - I think in situations like this, it's easy to see the other person's point of view and dismiss our own.

To say - "Oh well! I mean... she *only* wanted photos..." because that's possibly how she'd frame it.

But to you, it stirred up some feelings - and I think it would to anyone.

And why would she need to do that just for non-essentials?

I don't think you should dismiss your own emotions too easily, or minimise that interaction.

It sounds either like a coded message, or like she's being a bit insensitive... either way; it's on you to decide how to respond, but I'd feel free to acknowledge your emotions around it, and to respond in a way which genuinely represents you caring for yourself and prioritising your own needs (and healing).

I don't exactly know on what terms we are. We had bad breakup. Then we had bad encounter when I basically begged and said some hurtful things.
Since the breakup we didn't have a conversation you would call normal. But now she broke no contact in a confusing way.
Well put. I am afraid that if I reach out to her it will not be perfect. She may just tell me "You know, we shouldn't be talking right now".
In my journal I wrote down what is happening inside me and what I want from next conversation.
I see that my expectations are unrealistic. In summary I want to see some emotional connection but it's out of my control.

What I'd like to know the most is if I can consider this situation as an opening for me.
Of course I would like to talk about my confusion about the photos, but I don't want to be confrontational or open old wounds.
If I reach out casually and push towards something more that smalltalk I will push her away.
It's funny I still think I can push her farther away given the fact that we are broken up and didn't have any normal interaction for 4 months.
To be honest I stayed in no contact with hope she will miss me and I feel that push towards verification if her reach out about photos is about that.
I gave her two weeks of space. I am trying to decide if there is a point in waiting longer for her to reach out again or for me to finally feel ok with me texting her.

I was told by many people that clinging to hope is self-destructive. I am getting closer and closer to pop that balloon by reaching out to her, because It looks like I can't do it on my own.

I agree with once removed on this, but I'd counter balance it with the point that... nothing (I think) is more healing than knowing the bare-faced truth of a situation.

And if you DO reach out, and you're met with rejection; at least you know exactly where the land lies and you can accept that and move on.

The push-back question would be; if you reach out and she rejects you, will you be able to let it lie there - or will it send you into a spiral of anxiously clinging/trying to bring her round?

I guess you need to do what's right for you - but 'once removed's ethos of letting the anxiety settle first seems wise!

My ex also needs to heal. She has a lot of unresolved issues but she is in therapy. I gently pushed her to go to therapy and she still goes there weekly.
But during my therapy I also learned that not all problems stemmed from her issues. I can say that my behavior caused the cracks in our relationship. I was not mature enough even by my standards.
I also want an equal partner and we were a great team. She was also supportive and I know her emotional exhaustion didn't come from thin air. I acknowledged my responsibility in this. Occasionally she showed that she tried to acknowledge hers.

Yeah - I don't know.

I wasn't there, and we don't know each other

What I would throw into the mix is:

1 - BPD relationships can be *incredibly* confusing and hard.
And you might feel like you acted immaturely or unkindly; but you may have been having a normal response to a really strange set of circumstances.

I'm not letting you off the hook exactly, I'm saying rather that people with BPD can blame, project, and operate on sets of assumptions which can feel frankly narcissistic.

If you responded badly to bad behaviour; well... that's not necessarily some deep character flaw which you need to repent of.

2 - You say you're a really good team with this girl; and y'know - I don't want to contradict you on something that I know nothing about... but are y'sure?

You broke up, and you've been broken up for four months.

Good teams don't usually do that (although they may - and then get back together if both parties *genuinely* do a lot of work on themselves).

If you had to push her towards therapy, and the situation has left you confused, anxious and upset...

I don't know... so many people on these forums and similar forums say

"I met the love of my life! They're amazing in every single way! It's just... they have a complex trauma diagnosis... or BPD... or NPD... or whatever."

And then you read stories about abusive behaviour, and really wild emotional responses; and all sorts of things which leave you wondering what the OP is seeing.

And the thing is - I've been *exactly* in that position, and I still am sometimes.

I felt like my ex partner was an absolute soulmate, even while looking back at her emotional abuse, her physical threats, her harmful sexual behaviours, her multiple friendship/family relationship problems (mostly - by the sound of it - caused by her behaviour).

Don't get me wrong, she is a lovely person when she's well; and when she's ill, she doesn't really *mean* to cause harm I don't think...

But if I go away and imagine she's somehow my soulmate?
I don't know... I think a little balance around these things can be helpful...

[SnailShell]

(The little extra thought to my post there is - my ex [speaking for myself at least] isn't my soul mate at all - she's a lovely girl, who's very pretty and can be extremely charming.

She's also really quite unwell at the moment, and I really hope she's able to heal well etc. But she's not 'the one' for me; that's for sure! 'The one' has to at least be healthy enough to have a relatively standard relationship...)

[ConfusedPolish]

Hi guys,
It’s over. It happened a week ago but I just know had time and some peace of mind to write about that.
On 12th December I reached out to her. I wanted to know where I stood so I messaged her:
“Hey, I don’t know if we are on speaking terms, but I just wanted to ask how you’ve been.”
To add some context I need to confess to something creepy. I won’t be doing this kind of stuff again.
I went by her house, and I saw in Spotify that she was listening to a set of sad songs she had on loop for past few months.
I managed to get a glance at her as she was sitting on her bed and doing something at her laptop. She was starring at the wall a lot.
When I noticed she was listening to particular sad, reflective song(“Get you the moon” by Kina) I sent the message.

Messaging app didn’t show she read it but I am sure she noticed the message right away.
After I seeing it she jumped up the bed and shut down all the lights in the house and probably went to sleep. It was 10 PM. She didn’t see me for sure.
I know it’s shameful behavior. Like I am some kind of narcissist or pwBPD who just stalks like a maniac and just can’t let go. I never displayed this kind of behavior.
I have to say that I was surprised by her reaction. It was clearly emotional. I expected to be ignored or blocked instantly.
I was even hopeful that her reaction is proof of unresolved emotions that may grow in her mind. It turned out totally opposite.
I know for a fact that she had a cousin over at her place during that weekend and the probably talked about me and my message.
She replied the next day during her cousin's visit.
“Hey, I was wondering how to reply because, to be honest, I don’t have much to tell you. I felt very badly after our last meeting. We exchanged photos. Cool. Let it end here. I don’t feel a need of contact between us and I don’t see a point. Stay safe. Take care.”

Naturally I felt devastated. I took 3 days to answer because I wanted to collect my thoughts.
I decided to avoid any confrontation and replied with:
“I understand. I won’t be reaching out again. You know I regret how things turned out. Thank you for the whole time we spent together. I learnt a lot because of it.
I wish you all the best. Take care.”
All in all, I think it was a good message

And just like that it came to an end. She read it. Didn’t block me (yet?). I didn’t block her even though I was sure I would block her after I sent the message.
She is still hurt by the words I said when she came over to collect her things. It explains why she didn’t acknowledge my apology. Now true contact starts and I am starting to think more rational thoughts.

In the aftermath of this, I now feel depression coming in, because there is no source of hope to shield me from reality. But that was the goal, wasn't it?
I’ve been in low energy state this whole week. Watching Dr. House on netflix and trying regain my lost weight.
I know my body needs the rest. Non-destructive escapism is the way for now. But I have a feeling it’s going to get better somehow, I just don’t know how.
Christmas feels weird now. I am on my way to my parent's but it’s nowhere near “Driving home for Christmas” vibe I am used to.

[SnailShell]

Hi guys,
It’s over. It happened a week ago but I just know had time and some peace of mind to write about that.
On 12th December I reached out to her. I wanted to know where I stood so I messaged her:
“Hey, I don’t know if we are on speaking terms, but I just wanted to ask how you’ve been.”
To add some context I need to confess to something creepy. I won’t be doing this kind of stuff again.
I went by her house, and I saw in Spotify that she was listening to a set of sad songs she had on loop for past few months.
I managed to get a glance at her as she was sitting on her bed and doing something at her laptop. She was starring at the wall a lot.
When I noticed she was listening to particular sad, reflective song(“Get you the moon” by Kina) I sent the message.

Messaging app didn’t show she read it but I am sure she noticed the message right away.
After I seeing it she jumped up the bed and shut down all the lights in the house and probably went to sleep. It was 10 PM. She didn’t see me for sure.
I know it’s shameful behavior. Like I am some kind of narcissist or pwBPD who just stalks like a maniac and just can’t let go. I never displayed this kind of behavior.
I have to say that I was surprised by her reaction. It was clearly emotional. I expected to be ignored or blocked instantly.
I was even hopeful that her reaction is proof of unresolved emotions that may grow in her mind. It turned out totally opposite.
I know for a fact that she had a cousin over at her place during that weekend and the probably talked about me and my message.
She replied the next day during her cousin's visit.
“Hey, I was wondering how to reply because, to be honest, I don’t have much to tell you. I felt very badly after our last meeting. We exchanged photos. Cool. Let it end here. I don’t feel a need of contact between us and I don’t see a point. Stay safe. Take care.”

Naturally I felt devastated. I took 3 days to answer because I wanted to collect my thoughts.
I decided to avoid any confrontation and replied with:
“I understand. I won’t be reaching out again. You know I regret how things turned out. Thank you for the whole time we spent together. I learnt a lot because of it.
I wish you all the best. Take care.”
All in all, I think it was a good message

And just like that it came to an end. She read it. Didn’t block me (yet?). I didn’t block her even though I was sure I would block her after I sent the message.
She is still hurt by the words I said when she came over to collect her things. It explains why she didn’t acknowledge my apology. Now true contact starts and I am starting to think more rational thoughts.

In the aftermath of this, I now feel depression coming in, because there is no source of hope to shield me from reality. But that was the goal, wasn't it?
I’ve been in low energy state this whole week. Watching Dr. House on netflix and trying regain my lost weight.
I know my body needs the rest. Non-destructive escapism is the way for now. But I have a feeling it’s going to get better somehow, I just don’t know how.
Christmas feels weird now. I am on my way to my parent's but it’s nowhere near “Driving home for Christmas” vibe I am used to.

Hey

I won't write too much here - part of my own process is looking to cut back a little on my forum/social media usage (my relationship ended fully around six months ago, so I guess I've had a bit more time to process).

But I will say - in my view - what you did, in terms of getting things out in the open and asking where you stood, took courage and was absolutely the best thing to do.

There's probably a range of opinions on that, but this situation sounds like it's carried on for a while, and there were so many opportunities to torment yourself with possibilities and potentials which might never come to anything.

Like the 'Always winter, never Christmas' image in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

People can make themselves very unwell staying in that headspace.

When you look at it with calmer emotions, I wonder if you'll reflect on going to her house etc and think:

"Y'know... a relationship which gets me into that state just isn't the relationship for me."

And yeah, you could blame yourself for all of that; but it's not entirely fair - this kinds of relationships are absolutely crazy making, and we're all only human

But most of us want a partner (and need a partner) who will help us to see ourselves and the world a whole lot more accurately; and help us to flourish into our very best selves. Not someone who will warp our perspective and lead us into deep anxiety, fear and depression.

I know this hurts a ton right now - this time last year, I had my first break up with my BPD ex (there were two more to go), and it was absolutely awful. Christmas sucked too. I just felt ill the whole time.

Now? I feel absolutely free; the happiest and most peaceful that I've been in absolutely ages. It feels SO good to have that weight off my shoulders, and to feel clear headed again.

I don't miss my ex, and I wouldn't want her back.

But it took time, good friends and some skilful therapy to get to that stage - it wasn't overnight.

I did get there though, and I believe that you will too.

This girl took you to a place that I bet you wouldn't have gone, if someone had offered the situation to you a few years back, at a time when you were in a happy, peaceful, solid headspace.

You are - absolutely, 100% - healthier and better off away from it all.

And now you can heal.

I'm sorry this has happened for. you - it's a crap, very painful situation.

But when you look back in time, I bet you'll be really glad it ended; and I bet you'll be glad that you tore the plaster off and asked where you stood, so that you can now focus fully on moving grieving and moving forward.

All the very best to you - I hope you find some comfort and good sleep at your parents place; don't rush yourself!

[once removed]

ugh.

im sorry man.

unfortunately, that is just how a lot of people feel after a breakup. they prefer a clean slate, a new start.

it may not have been your first choice, but now, you can have yours too.

All in all, I think it was a good message

it was. cool. dignified. you dont have anything to be ashamed about in your efforts.

Christmas feels weird now.

im sure it does 

use the time to rest. to grieve. to recharge, with loved ones. let the new year ring in a new you.

Y'know... a relationship which gets me into that state just isn't the relationship for me."

And yeah, you could blame yourself for all of that; but it's not entirely fair - this kinds of relationships are absolutely crazy making, and we're all only human

regarding the drive-by stuff, i wanted to touch on this, i think its an important point:

we cant blame the relationship. its been over now for many months. the relationship didnt make CP do it. the ex didnt do anything. BPD didnt make him do it.

relationships/other people dont make anyone crazy, or do crazy things. if you spend a night under a bridge with the local schizophrenics, schizophrenia will not rub off on you. more importantly, far from everyone that comes into contact (or more) with someone with bpd goes through/responds the way we did.

we faced stress and adversity, and we got our asses kicked by it. that isnt about blame; its about responsibility, and learning from it; becoming stronger in the face of it, because we will be tested again. theres nothing to learn if someone or something else made us do it, nor is there anything to stop it from happening again.

if you find yourself behaving in ways that arent characteristic of you, or otherwise go against your own values, it is a reflection of how youre coping (or not coping) with stress. own it. face it head on. it is the erosion of those things that tend to cause us to find ourselves in holes we arent sure how we got into, and not know which way to dig.

you dont need to beat yourself up for sitting outside her house. everyone has an embarrassing story. there are entire broadway plays written about such things    but the lesson here isnt merely "i dont want to do that"; you already knew that, and did it anyway, and it wasnt the first time you found yourself behaving in ways you regretted. there are a lifetime of lessons (not blame) there to learn if you dig.

[SnailShell]

^^ D'ya know - I'm going to gently push back on this last part, because it invites interesting conversation (and it feels important in piecing BPD relationships together).

I think there is a sense in which BPD relationships (and similar) can play havoc with cognitive perception/emotional regulation and therefore behaviour.

And where it's vital to take personal responsibility, I also think... identifying the nature of the dynamic accurately ensures we take responsibility for the right thing.

To me - it seems as though once a person is "in" far enough, if the right sort of reconstruction of accurate perception/re-regulation etc doesn't happen; time doesn't always heal, and the impact continues.

This is partly because people seem to spend years ruminating on this stuff (time doesn't seem to heal, on its own).

Whereas you can't catch schizophrenia; I'll bet spending enough time in a deep emotional attachment with an untreated schizophrenic can really knock your perception off - on multiple levels.

Here's my take then -

Everyone who's acted a bit crazy (myself included), need to take responsibility for it.

But future responsibility lies in learning that relationships are real, tangible things which can skew personality when there's a severe weight of influence.

Therefore, a lesson learned is to go there *never again* - to spot unhealthy signs very early, and to have hard boundaries against that.

That's my take anyway.

Hope this doesn't come across as confrontational; I'm just interested in mapping out a really accurate sense of these sorts of situations, and considering an accurate map out of them too.

I don't have any definite answers though - so this kind of discussion can be a way of honing ideas (hope the OP doesn't mind that, also)!

[SnailShell]

(I'll just add - my concern is partly owing to the fact that BPD relationships often seem to contain a high degree of gaslighing.

And it may be hard to reflect accurately on what you are/aren't responsible for in the aftermath of that situation.

We may also totally miss the fact that - if a partner acts kind of crazy, it will be crazy-making, and that's not necessarily all on us; it may be partly a fairly normal response to a very abnormal situation.

And then we may 'confront' our role by actually taking more responsibility than we ought to, and let the other person off for things that they were actually doing.

BUT yeah... I get the other side of things also; very much so - and probably more than it sounds like at the moment!)

[once removed]

(time doesn't seem to heal, on its own).

i think youre right. time doesnt heal anything on its own. the one thing time does is dull the pain. if you sit in a room for 6 weeks, and do absolutely nothing, you will feel better. your pain will be less acute, less urgent. nothing, necessarily, will be healed.

if time healed wounds, our exes would be cured.

I'll bet spending enough time in a deep emotional attachment with an untreated schizophrenic can really knock your perception off - on multiple levels.

i think thats the crux of it.

at some point, between meeting a stranger, and bonding with and connecting with them, something changes. you attach. how you attach has profound implications.

Everyone who's acted a bit crazy (myself included), need to take responsibility for it.

 

Therefore, a lesson learned is to go there *never again* - to spot unhealthy signs very early, and to have hard boundaries against that.

im not sure about this.

ive been a heterosexual man all of my life. i have avoided dating men for that entire time. that didnt lead me to more successful outcomes with women.

dating by avoidance doesnt help you become a better partner, or find one. you cant simply "avoid the wrong person until you find the right one". luck and timing have a lot to do with an ideal relationship succeeding or not, but to find an ideal relationship we have to be an ideal partner.

98% of what you encountered with your ex (both of you) you will see again in the dating world. most members here report "i saw red flags but i ignored them". approaching dating by filtering for what you dont want only gets you so far, is generally maladaptive,  and folks (everyone) tend to approach relationships with rose tinted glasses. youll find something that might give you pause and find a way to justify it. you might be right and you might be wrong. the process of dating, ideally, should give you a chance to really test that person; not for negative traits or tendencies, but for long term character.

We may also totally miss the fact that - if a partner acts kind of crazy, it will be crazy-making, and that's not necessarily all on us; it may be partly a fairly normal response to a very abnormal situation.

And then we may 'confront' our role by actually taking more responsibility than we ought to, and let the other person off for things that they were actually doing.

how we behave is certainly on us. if it isnt, anyone can have this effect on us, and theres nothing to stop it from happening again.

our ex is our ex. theyre history. theyre gone. you can put however much or however little you want onto them. it wont change the outcome. its about us now.