Engagement to Raging Hate Filled Breakup

[athena wanderer]

After a relatively short mutual break-up in June / July my undiagnosed but likely bpd-ex reunited and became engaged on August 5th. As typical after every break-up or short separation we've had over the course of our 3 1/2 yr relationship, our days after reuniting were largely blissful with a few exceptions.  My now fiance seemed to be lost in confession mode every evening for a week - most confessions were not extraordinary, rather minor offenses or a display of imperfections he perceived in himself.  Afterwards we largely sailed in bliss when I spent my child-free weeks at his place. Over the past three months we developed a plan to end our semi-long distance situation as he admitted that the continued inability to co-habitate on a regular basis was very painful to him and that he didn't know how to function without his person around on a regular basis.  My reticence to move his direction was a need to maintain my daughters relationship with her father, not a lack of interest in moving but rather attempting to do what is best for my child. As such we mutually decided to sell his place and find a place situated rurally but close enough to my daughter school, grandparents, etc.  Selling our place has proven to be very difficult due to its uniqueness and significantly rural location . . . not one showing in the 3 month time span.  It was becoming quickly evident this would be a chore and an even longer separation than desired.  Strike One.

My SO has always had me listed in his phone with his last name the the word "wife" for as along as I can recall.  I fully expected that he wanted me to take his name however being the owner of a business it was my desire to hyphenate so that I could maintain my corporate identity and take his name.  My recommended solution was entirely unacceptable and led to a debate that spanned several days with me finally relenting and accepting that I would simply have to re-register my entity in every state we work in under my new married name - a major chore.  Strike Two.

This past monday, with encouragement from my fiance, I met up with a male friend of mine. During our conversation my friend divulged that my fiance had reached out to him earlier in the month encouraging him to "see" me and engage in congress. I was completely surprised and taken aback that this had occurred without my knowledge. (My ex enjoys hot wife / cuckholdry fantasy - please no kink shaming) I decided to bring this up to my fiance, emphasizing that I was not upset and neither was my friend but that in the future I would like to be involved in any decision he made to message my personal friends or lovers. Strike Three.

Within minutes of mentioning what my friend shared about his message, my fiance hung up on me . . . several texts later and we are completely estranged.  The exchange went largely like this:
Me: I don't know why this equates to hanging up on me.
Him: I hope he enjoyed the last time he is ever gonna XXXX. I can't believe what a weasel he is.
Him: I am in no way mad at you, I apologize for hanging up but I just don't want to talk right now. I guess out of the three of us doing adult things, only two of us are actually adults.
Me: I'm really surprised you're this upset. Openly communicating feels like the safe healthy approach. I want to be involved in any decision involving you messaging my friends or lovers.
Him: You turn this around on me then we are really going to have a fight.
Me: I already said exactly what I need to, I want to be involved in any decision involving you messaging my friends or lovers.
Him: A normal woman would say, yeah that's pretty PLEASE READty that you told him not to say anything and he did anyway but that is the liberal feminist bullPLEASE READ that you are so into.
Me: Always with the "normal" woman.
Him. I truly believe you have never had your man's back.

Within the hour my fiance was no longer answering my calls or texts, removed our relationship status on social media then blocked me entirely from all forms of communication.

The following evening at nearly 8:00pm he calls; when I fail to answer as I am at a school function, he messages me and says that if I do not stop calling him or attempting to make contact he will "get a PPO" on me.  I simply stated that I understood, and warned him that a package was due to arrive at his place in the next two weeks; specifically his wedding band and that I was unable to stop the shipment at this juncture.  Following his threat I received notice that an unknown e-mail / person messaged my former employer at 7:30pm stating I had formed a company and was stealing their work.  I then proceeded to receive 10 text messages from him including one that said "good thing XYZ is coming back around"  - the name of a woman he had dated during our last breakup. (I later learned she changed her profile picture to an image of her in our hallway two days before this all precipitated).  The other messages have included:

"I hate you"
"Keep the ring, pawn it, throw it in the trash, I don't PLEASE READing care"
"I don't love you anymore"
"We were supposed to be committed to each other but you lost that commitment and chose "male friend" instead of me and I will never get past that."
"You can PLEASE READ off. I'm sooo done" 
"You don't want to take my last name, you don't want to move in with me, you don't respect me as your man, you want to be a PLEASE READing bitch. You can PLEASE READ off"
"Thank you PLEASE READing slut"
"Worst girlfriend ever"

Following this he messaged me in the middle of the night about 10 minutes apart:
"slut"
"cunt"
"Get some dick"

And the following morning more.

Since I stopped responding to text he started e-mailing me and said that if I had "any PLEASE READing decency which I know you don't" that I would return the ring and said that I hurt him more than any woman ever has and that I am a joke.
He then proceeded to send me a photo of my belongings (albeit largely shampoo and feminine products - nothing irreplaceable) on fire in our fire pit.

From my point of view the precipatory text exchange was rather unremarkable.  I was not mad, but I did want to establish a boundary that messaging my friends without my knowledge or consent (specifically something sexual in nature) was not acceptable. By my ex-finace's own admission he specifically requested that my friend not tell me what had been messaged, and that for telling me, my friend was a "snake in the grass". I, in siding with my friend who share his message, broke our committment to each other and didn't have his back. My fiance is almost acting like he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.  OR conversely I have considered that it was a set up because the woman he had dated briefly re-entered the picture in some fashion and with the other "strikes" listed above it was a convenient way to remove me from the picture and plausibly blame me so that he could monkey branch to her.

Historically when we've had fights it is not uncommon to receive hurtful and cutting texts.  The PPO, business e-mail and burning of my belongings are the furthest he has ever gone. During the previous break-up when he started seeing someone he messaged me just how wonderful she was, a soulmate, etc.(harassed me with info about her) then turned around and said he was still in love with me and had just wanted everything with me but I just wouldn't do some of the things she did like nice makeup, etc.

Prior to this event I had already lost the support of my family for remaining in this relationship which they deem at a minimum verbally abusive.  If I were to return to this relationship (should the opportunity arise) for any reason I would likely not have the same access to my family and some friends that I currently enjoy.  Every time I have thought this was over and I would never hear from him again, I have.  Once again I believe its truly over, and feel full disconnection is more likely as the rage has been so extreme and he's got his "soulmate" supposedly. That said I need to mentally prepare for the day when I get that "I miss you" text in the middle of night.  Maybe this time I will stay "black".  Your support and recommendations for dealing with the fact that I continue to be more concerned about his welfare than my own is greatly appreciated.

I'm sure we could spend time figuring out how to get my ex-fiance back, but this time we need to talk about how to get me out for my own mental health and safety

[athena wanderer]

Feeling this morning that I was to blame by not having his back or minimally validating his feelings that it must feel crummy to have someone tell me something he told them not to. 

Lots of "if I'd only" agreed how crummy that must have felt versus focusing on the fact that he messaged without my consent or knowledge and attempted to hide it from me.

Its clear reading deeper into communicating and validating a BPD I personally hit a very raw area by unintentionally invalidating him.  I hurt my person deeply.

I logically don't think I deserve the outcome, but can't help feeling that I got my come uppins.

[once removed]

I logically don't think I deserve the outcome, but can't help feeling that I got my come uppins.

i can understand where youre coming from here. i think a lot of us can.

what-ifs are an ordinary experience when a relationship ends, and certainly something i think a lot of us struggle with uniquely in the aftermath. and when you learn about something like BPD, a condition, and that there are, you know, things you can do, "if only id known, or done this or that, or not done this or that", is natural.

i would stipulate that four things are true, and important to keep in mind.

1. while i suspect he felt a lot of shame, your response didnt shame him, and was imminently reasonable. couples are all different. how they interact, how they operate individually, how they communicate, and specifically, how they express consent vs whats implied, and all of that.

you communicated to him that you wanted, well, communication; not to have such a thing sprung on you. in a healthy relationship, that is what you do. one or both may not always get it right, but they, ideally, come together and work to do so.

i can empathize with how he must have felt all day long. and with bpd, an initial blow up is to be expected. the fact is what he did, without your consent, was incredibly disrespectful to you, to say nothing of how he reacted after that. the fact that he feels shame (or something akin to humiliation or being mortified) is the result of his own actions. people with bpd traits tend to cope with shame by offloading it on what they see as the source of it; have difficulty seeing themselves as the common denominator.

2. its important to know that the skills and tools for "dealing" with someone with bpd are really just relationship skills (as a community, we are deficient in those). like in any relationship, there is probably a great deal you could have done that may have improved the relationship. speaking for myself, i probably could have improved it a lot. but we, ultimately, werent right for each other. like most of us here, we continued long past the point that that made itself clear.

but like in any relationship, none of those things are guarantees to make any relationship "work". theres far too much involved in what goes into that than "if only id done this or not done that". 

which brings me to my next point

3. you did not break up solely because this incident happened, or because you failed to "validate" him. this was boiling for a long time. some of it, you spell out in your OP. some of it, you may never have been privy to. youll be able to see this more clearly as you heal, but i suspect on some level you see it now. thats especially important because

this time we need to talk about how to get me out for my own mental health and safety

it is a key part in Detaching (hell, its really a key part of successfully reconciling too). understanding that the relationship was/is broken. how you get out is by seeing and accepting that. it is how you let go of hope and move toward healing. we dont all arrive here in that state of course, its something to work toward. initially, when the pain is most acute, we sometimes need to set up high barriers (like for example, a period of no contact), or temporarily block, practice total avoidance (anything that reminded me of her was boxed up and put out of sight), those sorts of things. if youre feeling vulnerable, you may want to implement some things like that. but ultimately, we Detach by facing the things that are hardest, and by letting go of hope, and the things that keep us attached.

4. your emotions are going to be all over the place. i remember when i came here, i could read an innocuous sentence someone wrote, and it would send me into a tailspin of rumination and what-ifs for hours on end. i think the thing that helped me get through it the most really, was practicing mindfulness. understanding what was going on with me. understanding what to expect. understanding that a feeling is a feeling (i had lots, and they were overwhelming), and something you can sort of step away from and examine in a detached way.

thats really critical: not to judge harshly, or overly invest in, the things that are going to rapidly pop up, but to gently prod them and examine them. the things you are feeling are hard to cope with, and a lot of us find ourselves coping in one dysfunctional way or another.

you have support now, and i hope you will lean on it, and treat yourself as kindly as possible right now. i know things are very, very fresh, but weve got you, and believe me, it will get better. believe me, and even expect, that it often feels (or actually becomes) worse before it gets better, but that it really does get better.

[athena wanderer]

i can empathize with how he must have felt all day long. and with bpd, an initial blow up is to be expected. the fact is what he did, without your consent, was incredibly disrespectful to you, to say nothing of how he reacted after that. the fact that he feels shame (or something akin to humiliation or being mortified) is the result of his own actions. people with bpd traits tend to cope with shame by offloading it on what they see as the source of it; have difficulty seeing themselves as the common denominator.

Thank you for your response . . . this was exactly the kind of validation I needed.  I have no doubt that he also felt that by "siding" with my male friend he was going to be discarded / abandoned. Sadly for both of us, this couldn't be further from the truth.

May I ask your opinion on the returning of my engagement ring. As you may have noted, he originally said to keep it, pawn it, he didn't care which he reversed the next day via e-mail and said to return it if I had any decency.  At this juncture I am not yet ready to let go of my ring nor return it; it was something we picked out together. I suspect as I heal,  this will change.  Is it worth it to let him know my intentions in this regard or better to maintain no contact?

For example:  "I can see you are feeling hurt and tell returning the engagement ring is really important to you. I am feeling hurt as well and need some time to mourn before I return the ring."

[once removed]

Is it worth it to let him know my intentions in this regard or better to maintain no contact?

For example:  "I can see you are feeling hurt and tell returning the engagement ring is really important to you. I am feeling hurt as well and need some time to mourn before I return the ring."

you dont want to stonewall him. if he continues to push, id just give it to him in the simplest way possible with the least emotional entanglement as possible whatever that is.

but, id also recognize that right now, its hard to take seriously, because he clearly is not at baseline. hes just making demands and insulting you; i get it, my ex would do a similar thing when we were fighting or "breaking up". he may change his mind, he may calm down, he may escalate to the moon, he may drop it and move on to something else entirely, but id be mindful that right now, hes just swinging, blindly.

and given how things went down, and are still going, it makes sense to get a breather from each other. thats usually the case when it comes to the exchange of belongings.

so it makes sense to say "hey, this is happening really fast. can i have a few minutes to breathe here?" if hes harping on it, or just let him know that you will return it by x date. if hes dropped it, id drop it. if hes gonna bully you into it, id just get it done.

[athena wanderer]

you dont want to stonewall him. if he continues to push, id just give it to him in the simplest way possible with the least emotional entanglement as possible whatever that is . . . .

so it makes sense to say "hey, this is happening really fast. can i have a few minutes to breathe here?" if hes harping on it, or just let him know that you will return it by x date. if hes dropped it, id drop it. if hes gonna bully you into it, id just get it done.

Let me make certain I'm understanding correctly.  At this time he has dropped all attempts at contact since Wednesday at 9:00pm - I suspect this may be because he has either a) calmed down and transitioned to feeling the loss or alternate distraction (which would be typical for him) or b) decided that he is blocked entirely as I have not responded to any text or e-mail since Tuesday when he threaten a PPO.  E-mail has always been our last avenue for contact when all other methods fail.  If the later is true it could be construed as stonewalling.  If the former is true, he has dropped it. 

From a purely selfish standpoint I don't want to be viewed as stonewalling and I don't want to further contribute to his notions that people don't remain loyal.  I also have a very specific fear (imagined but feels so very possible) based on the last breakup where he sent me photos of the woman he was dating. I'm quite scared that if I were to send the ring via mail I would (if he is is still angry) potentially receive a photo of the ring on her finger.  The photos and screen shots of their messages were sent to me to impress upon me that he was happy and we were done . . . he had found his "angel' and I just had to "deal with it"  a tirade that broke down when I challenged his assertion that he was completely happy by asking why, if he was so happy an in love, was he continuing to message me and tell me about her . . . to which he responded "I still love you".  I can most honestly say that I could not handle a photo of this nature, and that it would hurt terribly. 

[once removed]

if he hasnt brought it up since, and you havent spoken since, i would do nothing more.

by stonewalling, i meant simply ignoring an active/ongoing effort on his part. if things are quiet, let them be.

I also have a very specific fear

i can understand that. if it helps, i had some specific fears too after my breakup, stuff around imagining my ex being vengeful, none of which happened. i dont say that to minimize your fear - your ex has shown himself to be especially vengeful in a way my ex largely didnt - just to say be mindful that you may also be hypervigilant right now. it isnt a reason to not return the ring (if he ultimately wants it), but its certainly one to take some time and space on.

if he is in a relationship (?) then (apart from all the hurt that entails) he is less likely to keep up the vengeance. you know him best, in terms of predicting behavior, and of course everyone has heard of a case where someone behaving like he is even recruits the new person to join in, but it wouldnt surprise me if, after the initial outburst, he doesnt want to deal with the breakup at all.

[ForeverDad]

I perceive that he has lost your Trust.  Not just the "on again & off again" cycles but the substantive whiplash impacts of them.  It would not be surprising if after some time he would cycle around again and try to patch things up a bit.  Well, until the next time.

That's what is, sadly, predictable in so many BPD relationships.  BPD traits are more evident the closer two people are.  From a distance and with some time he may appear better but resume the close contact and his volatility will emerge yet again.  As many here have concluded, we can't fix their serious relationship issues.  Our very closeness is, to them, emotional baggage that they can't get past in order to truly listen to us.

It would be very productive for you to look within yourself to resolve your feelings and regain your perspective and boundaries.  (People with BPD resist boundaries and so effective boundaries - typically how we respond to violations of our boundaries - are for us to enforce.)  The peer support here is awesome, as well as the accumulated collective wisdom.  You are welcome to browse our Tools and Skills workshops board when you have opportunity.

[athena wanderer]

Thank you so much for your reply.  You are absolutely correct in stating he has lost my trust (until next time).  This has been the most significant breech of confidence in our entire relationship and honestly speaking the minute we got engaged I could sense and sometimes witness him slowly spiraling out of control.  It seems the closer we have gotten the more rapid and regular our cycles have become.

Many thanks for all the insights and validation.

[ForeverDad]

We have a saying here, be aware of the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).

I will discuss Obligation in case this fits your current situation.  In recent months there has been increased commitment or obligations in the relationship.  He may sell his residence.  He may move closer to where you co-parent your child.  You may change your name requiring a lot of paperwork.  All those changes indicate increased obligations, making it even more difficult to unwind the relationship and all those changes if it does remain failed, or it restarts and then fails yet again.

Could this be a factor in his most recent cycling crisis?  What occurred to me was that with increased obligation he might have had more stress.  Or, on the other hand, with you being more obligated he might have felt he could let down his guard a bit, his public appearance of normalcy, or that he could "let his hair down" so to speak.

That's what occurred to me, just throwing out a few possibilities.

[athena wanderer]

What a valid and interesting consideration.  I think both possibilities are true.  He's definitely been upset about selling a place he likes to live (as do I), so much so that we talked about alternatives to make it a more viable business, keep the land and purchase "our" home an alternate way.  In fact, we made an offer on a place that was closer to my home, and when we didn't get it, he pulled back a bit and was a bit despondent that week. I took his despondence as disappointment because he was looking forward to the renovation and having a new piece of property in our quiver so to speak.

Another significant blow happened that week when one of our AirBnb guests told him that he wouldn't live in one of the areas we were considering for its access to my daughters school while maintaining a rural address. 

I do think not being able to "see" a way to make cohabitation work immediately was a major stressor for him. AND while we had discussed that it could easily take 1 1/2 to 2 years to fully resolve our housing issue he ultimately hasn't been handling the weeks when we don't cohabitate.

Perhaps I just need to accept that his assertion that not being able to be together really hurt him (he said: I've never had to do this before an don't know how to behave), and that the emotion of not having daily connection was much more "painful" and unmanageable than could be overcome even with a plan in place to correct it.

From this lens and what happened at the beginning of the week it looks like we may have hit all three categories of the FOG.
Fear we couldn't correct the housing situation soon enough.
Obligation - newly engaged
Guilt - getting caught doing something I did support him in.

[athena wanderer]

correction - doing something I didn't support him in.

[athena wanderer]

As I'm starting to gain clarity on our interactions with this discussion, I'm realizing that the while the housing was a significant challenge even for an "NT" (I would get concerned and sad that it was going to be very difficult to meet all our criteria) it must have been much more overwhelming for him and ultimately just not the best situation or relationship for him.

Goodness that's just super sad.

Sooo for another topic / consideration. I know no one actually knows.  Do you see a possibility of regaining connection at some point.  Working towards a romantic relationship would be an exercise in insanity, however after some healing on my end, I'd be open to friendship as that has been the most important aspect of our time together.  Sadly, over the last three years I've seen him discard two people permanently, and this fight was by far the worst we've ever had, or rather the reaction was the worst I've ever seen.  He's never burned my stuff.  Only one of the times we "broke-up" did he delete my phone number so that he had no way to get a hold of me. We regained connection via e-mail - I don't however recall who initiated the reconnection ( in very rare form I believe it was him).

He does have two ex's that he was in contact with when we met - he generally does have very long term relationships. The first was his ex-wife (They had PPO's issued against eachother), and the second was his last relationship in which he as so upset he moved across the country.

[once removed]

Do you see a possibility of regaining connection at some point.  Working towards a romantic relationship would be an exercise in insanity, however after some healing on my end, I'd be open to friendship as that has been the most important aspect of our time together. 

to be blunt, this may be the bargaining part of grief speaking.

when a relationship that has been so near and dear to us explodes like this, it can really leave a person reeling. who wouldnt? so, to self soothe, the psyche can create scenarios to cope with such a painful finality. it may also idealize a person that has hurt us.

none of that is to suggest you cant be friends of him, of course, only that, after some healing on your end, you may feel very differently.

i want to choose my words carefully here, because my point isnt to demonize him. but in your own words, this is someone you are struggling to break from "for your own mental health and sanity". it is not unusual to swing between that and "could we be friends".

"could you be friends", of course in part depends on him. that part is entirely unknowable. on your end, i would follow the scenario to its logical conclusion: what would a friendship look like? if it were to happen, probably not very much. its not uncommon at all to be friends with exes, but its pretty uncommon for it to be a meaningful or close connection. i have some connection (social media friends) with most of my exes. ive only ever been in communication with one. that relationship ended really badly, and was bitter for years. i dont recall how we got back in touch, but years had passed. i didnt need anything from her by that point, any apology or acknowledgment, because our connection was never close, or unsafe. we would catch up by messenger maybe once or twice a year, id go to her halloween party each year. nothing deep. she still had all of the same problems, but again, this wasnt close, or unsafe, and if she ever blew up at me, i wouldnt lose any sleep. we fell out of what was occasional contact around covid, when she stopped having her halloween party.

so thats my starting point. can you have a loose connection to this person that has played an important role in your life? depending on him, and depending on how you feel down the road, possibly.

but i think you also need to consider what that realistically looks like, and the risks involved. it is fairly easy, after a person who has healed, to be friends with an ex that treated them badly, because the relationship looks very different - there arent the same sorts of expectations. it is a lot harder to have even a loose connection with someone who has really gone out of his way to hurt you, deeply, and repeatedly.

[athena wanderer]

Thank you for your honest and regular replies.

You're not wrong - there is an enormous amount of internal bargaining going on.  I am constantly fighting an internal battle with a part of me that desperately wants to reach out and just get my person back. I absolutely bloody hate the fact that I know the minute I did get back (if that were even achievable at this juncture) I would be asking myself why, just why did I want to get on this merry-go-round again. I can honestly say that separating myself from this relationship feels tantamount to getting over a chemical addiction.  The pull to reconnect, fix, make it better in no way feels like other relationships I've lost or walked away from.

Thanks for the continued support!