Am I a narcissist?

[50andwastedlife]

My dBPDh has taken to saying that I am a narcissist and that he's been researching it and I fit all the criteria. It's making me feel like I'm going mad, because I know that one of the signifiers of narcissism is not recognising it in yourself, so I don't know if I'm in denial and it's is all me.

It's also very triggering for me as my mother is a narcissist, and he says I am just like her. He knows that this is something I fear and dread, and I don't know if he says it to be cruel or because it's really true.

Things have been very bad the past few days; I have competely failed to validate etc, but have just done all the wrong things, argued, justified, defended, mentioned BPD. My H has a current narrative that we were blissfully happy until I got a job and destroyed him. My memory is that I have been with someone who minds me seeing anyone outside our marriage or being separate person at all for 22 years...but if I say anything about that, he calls it a narcissistic dream, and accuses me of always wanting to be right, because I am a narcissist.

I really feel like I am going mad. In fact, I think I have gone a bit past breaking point. I'm not sure why this matters so much. Does it? Should I try to find out and do something about it???

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[once removed]

I know that one of the signifiers of narcissism is not recognising it in yourself

this is not a signifier of narcissism. most people have a very poor understanding of what constitutes narcissism. none of us are either trained or capable of diagnosing ourselves. neither, the urban legend that "if you ask yourself if you have bpd/npd it means you dont". neither are his claims/summaries of you indicative of narcissism.

It's also very triggering for me as my mother is a narcissist, and he says I am just like her. He knows that this is something I fear and dread, and I don't know if he says it to be cruel or because it's really true.

setting aside whether theres any validity to the idea, it does sound like hes pushing your buttons about this.

when two people are locked in conflict, and someone starts throwing around terms like "narcissist", it is usually a reflection of their frustration and the conflict, rather than a medical claim with any validity. these days, people call everyone theyre in conflict with a "narcissist".

replace "narcissist" with _______. if he said "thats very schizophrenic of you", or "you always want to be right, which means youre OCD", you probably wouldnt invest a lot of thought in those charges. this one pushes a button. whether hes conscious of that or not, its an effective one to use, so he uses it. i think thats worth digging deeper into.

I'm not sure why this matters so much. Does it? Should I try to find out and do something about it???

speaking to this very broadly...

narcissism exists on a spectrum, from the normal/average to the extreme, or you can think of it as "healthy narcissism" vs "unhealthy narcissism". we are all on this spectrum; we all have levels of narcissism.

it will not serve you well for us to tell you "you are wonderful, you are not a narcissist, your husband is the narcissist". the fact is, a full 50% of romantic partners of someone with BPD have a PD themselves. NPD and BPD is a legendary pairing. many members have found themselves higher on the spectrum (or are self proclaimed covert/altruistic narcissists), and it served them.

at the same time, statistically speaking, you are likely not NPD, and i think its important to see this for what it is; not good faith concern, not a charge backed up by anything credible, but something thrown out to win an argument.

in other words, i dont think its helpful to dismiss the very idea out of hand, but i dont think its helpful to treat his claim seriously. when we encounter unhealthy behavior in ourselves, it makes sense to say "i have this/these unhealthy behaviors. what can i do about it?". do you feel that thats the case?

[CC43]

Hi there,

My cursory reading of this situation is that your partner is projecting, by accusing you of being a narcissist.  Projection is a very common feature of BPD.  In addition, you might find yourself walking on eggshells, trying to prevent an outburst from your partner, and doing everything your partner requests.  By ignoring your own wants and needs, you might feel alienated--from your family, your friends and even yourself.  That might make you feel like you're losing your identity, which is probably exactly what your partner wants, to exert more control over you.  This "alienation" might have you questioning who you really are!

Look, everyone is selfish and acts "narcissistic" at times.  The question is, are you so selfish and self-centered that your life is dysfunctional?  Do you never consider other people's feelings?  Do you intentionally hurt others in pursuit of personal gains?  Are you all take and no give?  Are you not happy unless others are showering you with praise and attention?  When you lack praise and attention, do you feel lost?  Do you "discard" people who don't cater to you?  Do you consider yourself "special," as if rules apply to other people, but not to you?  Do you act entitled, like other people should serve and cater to you, while you don't owe anything in return?  Do people besides your spouse think you're arrogant, or grandiose?  If you answered "No" to most of these questions, then I'd have serious doubts that you're a narcissist.  And just because someone calls you narcissist, that doesn't mean that you are one.

[Notwendy]

I have a mother with BPD and growing up, I was afraid of being like her. Fortunately I don't have BPD but I have done counseling to do some self work on behaviors I want to change.

When growing up with a mother with a PD- we may have learned some maladaptive coping behaviors - these served us in our families as kids but maybe not in our adult relationships. The good news, is, if we learned them, we can unlearn them and learn new functional ones.

You are not your mother!!
However, you may have learned some behaviors growing up from your mother that you would like to change.

If you are seeing a counselor- that counselor can answer that question and most likely ( hopefully) will reassure you. (Whatever your H says- doesn't mean it's true- and he's not a professional). If you aren't seeing one- I recommend it- for your own emotional support and to explore what behaviors you may wish to change for yourself.

[HappyChappy]

... I have been with someone who minds me seeing anyone outside our marriage or being separate person at all for 22 years...

Google "code pendant relationships" . Also a narcissist often sees their partner as an extension of themselves. Not that you've revealed enough to make any assumptions here, but why not do an online test for narcissism ? It's hard to admit to narcissism in company, so why not do an online test ? I once did a "psychological test", with my partner, not explaining what is was for, it was the best way to get honest answers. A narcissist can often give you the answers that gets them the result they want, so ...

[HappyChappy]

My dBPDh has taken to saying that I am a narcissist..

It's very common for someone with a PD to project blame away, bit like when you tell an 8 years old "You're stupid" and they will automatically say "No, you're stupid" only a BPD will be more sophisticated in how they project blame away.

[zondolit]

Your words could have been mine several years ago. Does it matter? Yes! Because anything important to you--anything that takes up space in your head and heart--matters.

My former husband, BPD and NPD, was so good at sowing doubt. And it worked! I'd start to doubt myself and it was then the very madness you describe.

It doesn't have to be this way.

Do you have a therapist--not a marriage therapist but for you as an individual?

[EyesUp]

My un/bpdxw frequently accused me of being a narcissist.

Like you, I was compelled to consider the possibility...

My therapist pointed out:  Most narcissists would not consider the possibility...

Instead, they would immediately, reflexively, defend against a perceived criticism.  My therapist offered more assurance and stated that, in her opinion, based on decades of practice, I did not present as a narcissist or meet diagnostic criteria.  That was assuring.  If you don't have a therapist, consider exploring what resources might be available through work, insurance, or community services.  There may be low cost or no cost options, and a lot of therapy has moved to virtual/remote setting - e.g., you can take a call from your car if you need privacy.

For good measure, I took a few online person personality profiles and assessments. Granted, these online tools have varying degrees of validity - some have been posted here, I'll link one below. 

Finally, I got a new job last year that required a personality assessment (Caliper).  This reminded me that I've taken Caliper, Myers Briggs, and other assessments multiple times over a 30+ year career - I've always received the job offer.  While these profiles are not clinical assessments, I'm pretty sure that if the assessment indicated that I don't work well with others, I would not have received employment offers.  I mention this because you may also have taken a personality profile / assessment at some point that could be a good touch point.

Even though I was often isolated in my relationship with my pwBPD, I was fortunate that I managed to keep my family relationships and long-term friendships intact.  After the divorce, some friends who had been explicitly excommunicated by my ex came back.  I also have a large community of professional acquaintances, colleagues and former colleagues.  This often isn't the case for narcissists, who tend to burn bridges...

With increasing confidence, I came around to the idea that I'm not a narcissist.  I may have some narcissistic attributes - most of us do - and some of my ex's observations were possibly valid, albeit weaponized in unproductive ways.  This may be true for you as well.

Narcissist and Borderline PDs do have some common / overlapping attributes and associated behaviors - one recurring theme is "accusations are confessions" - another way of saying:  They tend to project whatever they are feeling (or avoiding) onto someone else.  As noted by others, you may be on the receiving end of this sort of projection.

If you've got time to read, there are some resources here:

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/narcissistic-personality-disorder

and here's an assessment that was posted here a while back:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128254

[LittleRedBarn]

Hi 50andwastedlife

I went through a period of many years when I thought I might be a narcissist, partly because my mother definitely was one, and partly because my dBPD husband used to tell me constantly that I had no empathy, that I always put my own needs first, that I was a selfish b*tch etc,  etc, etc

Now, I know that I am not. I was definitely damaged by being brought up in a narcissistic family, and some of my behaviors can sometimes look superficially similar to my mother's, but I couldn't be more different.

Here are a couple of resources that helped me to understand my relationship with my mother. Understanding my relationship with my dBPDh was a whole lot harder!

https://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/daughters-with-narcissistic-mothers/

and

The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman

Looking deep into your own heart is your own personal journey, and one that your husband should be supporting you with, not undermining and name-calling.

It does sound as if you could do with some individual counseling or therapy to help navigate all this.

 

[50andwastedlife]

Thank you for your reply and I appreciate your candour.

it will not serve you well for us to tell you "you are wonderful, you are not a narcissist, your husband is the narcissist". the fact is, a full 50% of romantic partners of someone with BPD have a PD themselves. NPD and BPD is a legendary pairing. many members have found themselves higher on the spectrum (or are self proclaimed covert/altruistic narcissists), and it served them.

I think part of me did want that, in a childish way, when I wrote that post, so thank you for being clear-sighted!

at the same time, statistically speaking, you are likely not NPD, and i think its important to see this for what it is; not good faith concern, not a charge backed up by anything credible, but something thrown out to win an argument.

It does feel like a response to me referencing his BPD diagnosis, in a tit-for-tat way. And because he knows it will press my buttons. But not out of care or concern.

[50andwastedlife]

Hi there,

My cursory reading of this situation is that your partner is projecting, by accusing you of being a narcissist.  Projection is a very common feature of BPD.  In addition, you might find yourself walking on eggshells, trying to prevent an outburst from your partner, and doing everything your partner requests.  By ignoring your own wants and needs, you might feel alienated--from your family, your friends and even yourself.  That might make you feel like you're losing your identity, which is probably exactly what your partner wants, to exert more control over you.  This "alienation" might have you questioning who you really are!

Look, everyone is selfish and acts "narcissistic" at times.  The question is, are you so selfish and self-centered that your life is dysfunctional?  Do you never consider other people's feelings?  Do you intentionally hurt others in pursuit of personal gains?  Are you all take and no give?  Are you not happy unless others are showering you with praise and attention?  When you lack praise and attention, do you feel lost?  Do you "discard" people who don't cater to you?  Do you consider yourself "special," as if rules apply to other people, but not to you?  Do you act entitled, like other people should serve and cater to you, while you don't owe anything in return?  Do people besides your spouse think you're arrogant, or grandiose?  If you answered "No" to most of these questions, then I'd have serious doubts that you're a narcissist.  And just because someone calls you narcissist, that doesn't mean that you are one.

Thank you CC43, I think everything in your first para applies to me. Down to the fact that even though I would answer no to the questions in the second, I don't trust my own thoughts any more!!!

[50andwastedlife]

You are not your mother!!
However, you may have learned some behaviors growing up from your mother that you would like to change.

Thank you Notwendy! It is good to have that validation!! (Though sometimes I feel like I have married my mother...!)

And yes, I have definitely got some behaviours from my mother I would like to change, and it is about time I saw a therapist again...so hard in the maelstrom to find time/money!

[50andwastedlife]

Google "code pendant relationships" . Also a narcissist often sees their partner as an extension of themselves. Not that you've revealed enough to make any assumptions here, but why not do an online test for narcissism ? It's hard to admit to narcissism in company, so why not do an online test ? I once did a "psychological test", with my partner, not explaining what is was for, it was the best way to get honest answers. A narcissist can often give you the answers that gets them the result they want, so ...

I have only recently come to realise my own codependence! I did do an online test and came out as "not a narcissist" but then wondered if I had narcissistically given it the answers I thought it was looking for ....!

[50andwastedlife]

Your words could have been mine several years ago. Does it matter? Yes! Because anything important to you--anything that takes up space in your head and heart--matters.

My former husband, BPD and NPD, was so good at sowing doubt. And it worked! I'd start to doubt myself and it was then the very madness you describe.

It doesn't have to be this way.

Do you have a therapist--not a marriage therapist but for you as an individual?

Thank you zondolit! I don't at present; I know it is something I need to get to, but it feels impossible when my dBPDh minds me being at work so much, that it would be just one more thing to hold against me...

[CC43]

Hi 50,

You state, your spouse gets upset when you're working, and if you get therapy, it will be one more thing for your spouse to hold against you.

Look, my spouse doesn't have BPD, but he does exhibit some BPD traits at times, especially when he's stressed--and his biggest stressor is his BPD daughter.  So I understand how stressful BPD is!  My husband will then start to get extremely controlling, jealous and even a bit paranoid.  He will take issue with me working "too much," or when I do anything for myself, such as go to the gym or have a night out with girlfriends.  He will pout, throw a fit, call me various times to yell at me, etc.  I think that he thinks that if he throws a fit, I'll give in and stay home to cater to his every whim.  And I confess that sometimes, I've caved.  But look, I'm also smart enough to know that if I give in to these childish antics, I'm essentially incentivizing him to act that way even more, to get what he wants.  I'm also smart enough to know that I need to take care of me, because if I don't, nobody will!  So the worse things get, the more I prioritize my physical health, by eating right and getting exercise.  I also prioritize my mental health, by getting exercise and cultivating friendships, even friendships which don't involve my husband.  That is HEALTHY.  So I let him have some tantrums here and there, but I don't let him stop me (most of the time).  I think he realizes he's being childish, and that I'm not a psycho for wanting to get some exercise and socialization from time to time.  I just try to "train" him to think these activities are ESSENTIAL and normal.  Usually he'll pout, but he'll return to almost-normal the next day.  And then, I confess I'm a little sneaky, because when he works out, I'll lay on the praise:  "Honey, you're so good about working out.  Doesn't it feel good?"  Or, "Honey, I'm so glad you went and had dinner with your buddies.  It's great to get out and socialize, and stay connected with your buddies, isn't it?" By reinforcing these healthy habits that he's doing, I'm sending the message that what's good for him is good for me, too, and that he shouldn't have a conniption fit when I try to do the exact same thing.  I'm basically saying, I support things you do outside the home, and likewise you should support me.  We BOTH need to prioritize self-care because dealing with BPD is especially taxing.

My advice is, you need to prioritize self-care, because if you don't, nobody will.  It is NOT "narcissistic" to take care of yourself. Maybe you start with baby steps and build from there.  That's what I'm doing.

Finally, I guess it's no surprise to me that your spouse sounds jealous of your work.  Am I correct in assuming that he's unemployed, or maybe underemployed?  My reading is that he's feeling insecure, because he's not contributing enough in his opinion, and maybe he's also a little bored.  Therefore he's taking it out on you, and complaining that you work to much.  You see, that's probably just "projection" of his insecurity about him not working enough and not having enough friends and colleagues.  He wants you to work less, so that he doesn't feel as guilty about not working more, and not being as popular as you seem to be.  Moreover, the bills that you're paying simply might not "count" in his mind, because all he's concerned about is his own contribution.  My husband (not even BPD), has this convoluted thinking sometimes. 

[CC43]

P.S. 50,

In reading your post, you seem to imply that your spouse resents the things you do outside the home, correct?  One tactic that I've used with my husband, who happens to have the same hang-up, is to regularly invite him to do activities outside the home.

Am I right that your husband probably doesn't get out much, because he's a little negative and a little lazy?  A possible antidote to that is for you to take the initiative.  For example, I'll say to my husband, "The weather's going to be nice this weekend, let's do a hike!"  He would typically say, "I don't want to," or "Hiking's boring."  But I don't let that get me down.  Come Saturday, I'll say, "I'm going to a park nearby, it's supposed to have a great view of the city.  Want to come with me?"  If he comes, then great.  But if he doesn't, than that's his choice, but I'm going on the hike anyway.  Since I invited him, and I gave him ample warning, he can't really object, right?  And presto, I've gotten a couple of hours to exercise for myself.  In this sort of scenario, he's less likely to object.

You might try the same with therapy:  "A friend recommended this therapist, who helped her do a mental tune-up.  She has an opening next week.  Would you like to come?"  With some forewarning and an invitation, he will probably decline to go, but he might also be less likely to object when you go, because you invited him (giving him some "control") and also let him "warm up" to the idea.

[Notwendy]

Please do not leave your job. Your H hates your job because it's gives you the potential to leave him, something he's terrified of. If he isn't working, it you being able to work would make him feel less- and so dragging you down to where he is might raise his poor self esteem. Also if it's the main source of income, you need the job.

It's also a source of positive validation for you. It's a chance to get out and be with "normal" people. Even if you don't want to leave him or run off with someone else- I would bet he fears it. By being critical of you and keeping you from other interests, he's managing his own anxiety about this.

He also may object to you getting therapy due to this fear. If you got therapy, you might also feel more emotionally healthy and then, you might leave him.

You aren't doing anything to make him fear this. This is his own fears and feelings. He doesn't need "evidence"- for him, feelings are facts.

If I could suggest one thing for you to do- it is to get therapy for yourself. It's self care. It isn't being a narcissist. If you had a sore throat- you'd go to the doctor to get some medicine. It you had a cavity- you would go to the dentist. Taking care of your mental health is essential too.

If you think it's better that he knows, tell him you are going to therapy to learn how to deal with your upbringing and your mother. His fear is that you are going to talk to the therapist about him and she will tell you to leave. So if you don't go, this diminishes his fear.

Even if you have to do it without telling him- go. Also it's for you, not him. In his present state, my own opionion is that it's not going to be effective to do marital counseling. You've seen therapy fail with him. Please do this, individually, for you.

In actuality- the two of you are acting on your fears. He's trying to stop you from doing things that might lead to you deciding to leave him. You are also appeasing him and diminishing yourself because of your fears of his anger and because- this is automatic for you. You may wonder how I know this--- I grew up with a BPD mother who also has NPD traits. Fear was the predominant emotion I knew. Walking on eggshells and appeasing her out of fear was automatic. You may cognitively, as an adult, not be feeling fear but when your H rages or calls you names, whatever fears you had as a child put you on automatic appeasement. So your appeasing him calms his fears and him calming down calms yours. This is what is meant by co-dependency- you are both doing things to manage the other person's fears as a way of managing your own.

For there to be a possibility of changing this dynamic between the two of you, one of you needs to work on managing your own feelings and fears. That's not going to be him. It needs to be you.

You believed you had to do this to survive as a child. This is instinctual for a child. If a child is abandoned by their mother, they will not survive. You may not want your H to leave you but the truth is- you are an adult- you will survive but when he behaves in a similar way to how your mother did, or is angry at you, 5 year old you takes over. Therapy can help you with these feelings.

The best part about something that triggers you is that- the trigger is yours, and since it is yours- this is something you can work on. You can't fix your H, or control that his behavior triggers you- but he couldn't trigger you if you didn't have the trigger anymore!

It takes some work, and it is progress, not perfection, but one step at a time. It can be done.  It's not perfect. Sometimes I still fall back into it. It's the people who are closest to us that could be the ones to get at these triggers. This means your H, your kids, your parents, and even co-workers. I recommend 12 steps- ACA, CODA, in addition to counseling. I hope you will do this for yourself.

[50andwastedlife]

Goodness Notwendy, that is incredibly insightful. I have belatedly been realising how many of my h’s behaviours are triggering for me because of my mother. Yes, that pattern of appeasement is so familiar. And I ask myself sometimes what I’m afraid of?! But it’s so visceral…it’s hard to articulate even to myself.

Also well observed CC43 - my h is retirement age, and really feeling it; his pension is not much and he has developed Rheumatoid arthritis in the last year or so, so is isolated and in constant pain. He is frank about how jealous he feels of me going out and earning and mixing with other people. But I think he fears me leaving too. And he fears being alone - his abandonment feelings are all-consuming.

Lots to think about. Thank you, everyone who is helping me here. It’s so useful.

[LittleRedBarn]

It seems like your job is a major trigger for your husband but, as Notwendy said, essential for your well-being.

Can you talk some more about the decision you took to start working from home? Did you both go out to work before your husband retired? Or is having a job at all a new thing for you?

I can look back now and see that retiring was a major factor in my husband's downward spiral, although I didn't recognize it at the time. It is a difficult period for anyone, but if you add BPD into the mix, it makes everything much harder.

My husband has rheumatoid arthritis too, and I read recently that it is considered one of the 'depressive five' diseases, because it is so commonly associated with depression. The constant pain is very difficult for anyone to deal with. Is your husband getting good treatment for the RA?