She emailed me after 3 months NC

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Thanks again, everyone, for validating the fact this is an issue, and the email was a symptom or a marker of sorts. You are right, it's not about the email itself, but the larger issues at hand.

This thread has been incredibly helpful for me. I feel like a little kid who is bowling and you all are those bumpers on the side of the lanes to keep the ball "on track" and heading towards the pins, sort of nudging me back to center lane when I veer.

but to me, a sign of codependency is the Herculean effort so many people taken advantage of by people with BPD (and similar) to rationalize what that person did in ways that are palatable.

Agree! And I find many of us doing this on this site, myself for certain. In fact, if I dissect the relationship throughout, this is what I did essentially constantly, for things small to, well, insanely bizarre or disturbing. Palatable is the right word choice, too. Not good or reasonable, just something I could choke down if I held my nose and gulped, metaphorically.

The way to protect yourself is simple: Knock it off. Stop rationalizing. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. In the language of old, grow a pair (or a spine or whatever).

Stand up for yourself, not in the sense of inflicting harm or lashing out but in knowing your boundaries and sticking to them. Not all messages require a response. Not all grievances are to be rationalized away. Not all trespasses are to be forgiven. Someone who truly cares about you will learn and accept this because it's simple human dignity. Someone who does not truly care about you will not.



Horatiox, I appreciate you consistently "telling it like it is".

[findinggratitude]

Thanks again, everyone, for validating the fact this is an issue, and the email was a symptom or a marker of sorts. You are right, it's not about the email itself, but the larger issues at hand.

This thread has been incredibly helpful for me. I feel like a little kid who is bowling and you all are those bumpers on the side of the lanes to keep the ball "on track" and heading towards the pins, sort of nudging me back to center lane when I veer.

but to me, a sign of codependency is the Herculean effort so many people taken advantage of by people with BPD (and similar) to rationalize what that person did in ways that are palatable.

Agree! And I find many of us doing this on this site, myself for certain. In fact, if I dissect the relationship throughout, this is what I did essentially constantly, for things small to, well, insanely bizarre or disturbing. Palatable is the right word choice, too. Not good or reasonable, just something I could choke down if I held my nose and gulped, metaphorically.

The way to protect yourself is simple: Knock it off. Stop rationalizing. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. In the language of old, grow a pair (or a spine or whatever).

Stand up for yourself, not in the sense of inflicting harm or lashing out but in knowing your boundaries and sticking to them. Not all messages require a response. Not all grievances are to be rationalized away. Not all trespasses are to be forgiven. Someone who truly cares about you will learn and accept this because it's simple human dignity. Someone who does not truly care about you will not.



Horatiox, I appreciate you consistently "telling it like it is".

[findinggratitude]

The second half of what I just wrote somehow was cut out, so let's see if I can cobble it together again a bit.

I appreciate the firm directives, Hx, and also FD, right now, because if I remove the history between us (emotions) and just look at the facts , and if a stranger had done what she did really throughout the relationship, because even in the "good" times, I was uncomfortable and saturated...it felt like being forced to eat an entire cake or something, right? Just TOO much, and I knew always that something wasnt quiiite right, and had I not been susceptible to the raining down of affirmations I would have avoided her from the start. And this is just another facet of that, really. And speaking to the dignity component, this was actually something I recognized during the whole dynamic, an utter lack of dignity. Normally this isn't something I even notice, because it's generally present in people, at least enough. But I was always trying to bring us back to some baseline of "dignity and grace"....I would actually say this, because the lack thereof was disturbing. The crying and rocking and pacing and running away , or the overt displays of over-the-top glee, all of it was just so uncomfortable. And I could never figure out what had incited such extreme demonstrations. She had little dignity and did not want to give it to me either. It just had to be a storm of emotional input and output all the time for things to feel "right" for her, I think. I think I'm still aiming to "show her something" if I were to reply, and that may be like asking a blind person to see. It's kind of already not about replying or not, enough time has passed that's kind of a moot point, but has now become more of an explanation of why I am still slightly reeling. To use the bumper analogy again, I appreciate all of you serving as that. I do still default to wanting to rationalize so much, and it's absolutely a default, and I apprently still need firm and stark reminders otherwise

[findinggratitude]

Because I do think that little email was a first drizzle of a storm to come, if I let it. Things never went any differently as soon as I added any input to the "conversations". The only way things could go was for me to just hitch a ride on her whims and the rollercoaster of her mood-shifts and impulses, all the while supporting and validating and applauding them, even when they were horrible decisions or completely warped thought processes. I am still quite anxious that a lack of response could incite some thunder and lightening to come...and I realize more than anything (well, along with my misguided drive to prove my "goodness") is what urges me to write her back. Fear is consistently the motivator behind anything I might do, or did, with her, and that's just sick (on my end). And is making her, well, the Godlike figure snailshell mentioned earlier

[SnailShell]

But it's not. The message isn't the issue. It's the symptom of the larger problem.

That problem is she's a manipulator, and the message is an attempt at manipulation. It wouldn't matter if it was 50 words or 50 pages. Her intent is the same.

I'm not a therapist, but to me, a sign of codependency is the Herculean effort so many people taken advantage of by people with BPD (and similar) to rationalize what that person did in ways that are palatable.

No offense, but that's usually why the person with BPD (and similar) chooses who they will manipulate. Many are expert at spotting weaknesses to exploit and knowing which buttons to push.

The way to protect yourself is simple: Knock it off. Stop rationalizing. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. In the language of old, grow a pair (or a spine or whatever).

I’m not being a smart ass here (not deliberately, anyway); but do you think the issue isn’t so much ‘rationalising’, as it is ‘correctly rationalising’. Or perhaps ‘helpfully rationalising’?

I think it’s hard for lots of people not to rationalise, because we create meanings and narratives from events as part of orientating ourselves in the world.

BPD folk really defy this ability… they act in self contradictory ways, do weird things, pile on guilt and shame, gaslight, manipulate… it’s super hard to work a coherent, helpful, accurate narrative and meaning from that.

So the advice to “knock it off - stop rationalising.”, could actually be super helpful.

But I wonder if a step further would be to rationalise things better - to say:

“I CANNOT sustain, heal, or uphold this person; or any other person. I don’t have that power. If I try, it’ll suck me dry, and they won’t be any better. They’re ill. And they treated me badly. And it’s left me with a lot of conflicting feelings, which I’m still trying to figure out. But I KNOW I don’t want to be in an abusive relationship, even if those relationships have a weirdly addictive quality. So I’m going to pack away my false sense of shame, recognise that she’s ill; I’ll grieve it, and then set my face towards the future and look for a girl who I’m crazy about *who can sustain and uphold herself, and will not ask me to do it for her*.”

Something like that feels good to me, because it fills in a gap left by simply stopping a rationalisation - it sorta replaces one with another.

Not sure what you guys think about that!

[once removed]

BPD relationships make us cynical.
...
you have to think of yourself as prey

i might put it differently: most of us arrive here with deep wounds from a bad breakup that can leave us on guard and hypervigilant.

it makes a lot of sense, when you are wounded, to be on the lookout for the danger of that happening again. it would be foolish to throw caution to the wind.

but make no mistake: if you are trying to heal, hypervigilance, and seeing ourselves as prey, are not an ideal destination. they are the identifying mark of the wounded.

we live in a world where 30% of the population may have a mental illness at any given time (more with traits). total avoidance of difficult people, heartbreak, and all around risk, isnt practical. it behooves us to adapt to a changing world; to "grow a pair", and go out there equipped to thrive, rather than shrink.

if you were a recovering alcoholic, would you rather be the person who has to avoid every place that serves drinks, or the one that is strong enough to enter, spend time with your friends, abstain from temptation, and have a good time?

in my thirteen years here/post breakup, ive observed tens of thousands of recoveries. in that same time, ive read (fewer) thousands of these post breakup exchanges.

about 65% of them are innocuous and about logistics. the other 35% are some combination of: 1. continuation of the relationship conflict and sniping 2. catching up later down the road when the ice has thawed to express regrets and end things on a better note. and yes, 3. unfinished business, where one or both parties want to reconcile.

those numbers are typical of post breakup communication; not unique to bpd. the thing about them though, is that whatever they say, or dont say, there are always some of us holding up a big   sign, warning of the risks of "being sucked back in", or hidden meanings, or even things that clearly dont apply - im not at all sure how we got from a happy birthday wish from an ex, and an obligatory "thanks", to whether its a good idea or not to get back into a relationship when neither the author nor the OP have indicated any hope or interest in such a thing. is this more about our own lingering wounds?

there is a fundamental difference between guarding our hearts from those who would do us harm, and jumping at shadows based on past experiences. learning that difference, after a bad breakup, one that understandably left us wounded, is key to healing, to trust, to being open and vulnerable to new love, and to having the confidence in ourselves to navigate and thrive.

she's a manipulator
...
Many are expert at...

a personality disorder is not a superpower, it is a skills deficit. it is a deficit in coping skills, in relationship skills, and in social skills. in a world of predator vs prey, people with bpd are the gazelle; not the "kings and queens of the jungle" we want to be.

moreover, master manipulators do not sit around and think about whether or not someone is pining for them three months later, and decide to cram painstakingly coded messages into a one line birthday wish to find out. seriously: does anyone?

the fact that we were manipulated (assuming we were) does not mean, necessarily, that the other person is particularly skilled in manipulation. it doesnt even mean they were trying to manipulate us. it may just mean we found ourselves compromised in a dysfunctional and complex relationship bond, and were, in fact, easily manipulated.

and if we respond to the things that life throws at us, as prey, then we still are.

[SnailShell]

Because I do think that little email was a first drizzle of a storm to come, if I let it. Things never went any differently as soon as I added any input to the "conversations". The only way things could go was for me to just hitch a ride on her whims and the rollercoaster of her mood-shifts and impulses, all the while supporting and validating and applauding them, even when they were horrible decisions or completely warped thought processes. I am still quite anxious that a lack of response could incite some thunder and lightening to come...and I realize more than anything (well, along with my misguided drive to prove my "goodness") is what urges me to write her back. Fear is consistently the motivator behind anything I might do, or did, with her, and that's just sick (on my end). And is making her, well, the Godlike figure snailshell mentioned earlier

Yes, and this might be some BS idea from me, so do discern carefully - but trying to prove your goodness to someone can also constitute trying to be Godlike for them (however unintentionally).

I think so, anyway.

Can you live with them not seeing you as perfect? As a kind of saviour figure?

If not, why not?

People with BPD… it seems like they need someone perfectly loving, with endless personal resources of energy and strength, unchanging, immovable, with perfectly wise and solid boundaries… if that doesn’t describe a god-like figure, I don’t know what does.

But this is their unhealed need, and they won’t find it here in human relationships here on Earth, so they need to heal.

People trying to be their sustainer and healer is probably not helpful for them (as you know anyway) because it colludes with their mistaken idea that this is even a possibility and prevents them from looking more carefully and themselves.

I’m sorry that you’re in this painful position though.

I don’t know the answer - I understand why it’s really hard.

The temptation to just… TRY to be have some kind of loose reconciliation is probably huge.

For me - I tried once - and deliberately made sure not to ‘save her’ in any way. I made it clear that I liked hearing from her, but didn’t text unless I wanted to etc.

She wasn’t able to sustain that, and it ended up perpetuating the confusion for me (she kept pushing, pulling, coming, going; and it ended with her getting a new bf who called and threatened me).

So y’know - I don’t know what you should do. No idea really.

But whatever you do, do it for the right reasons - and remember to see with clarity.

She’s ill. You haven’t fully healed here yet. Clarity and truth is EVERYTHING. And you really ought not to do something which will throw you into ongoing, increasing confusion (whatever that may be).

[SnailShell]

i might put it differently: most of us arrive here with deep wounds from a bad breakup that can leave us on guard and hypervigilant.

it makes a lot of sense, when you are wounded, to be on the lookout for the danger of that happening again. it would be foolish to throw caution to the wind.

but make no mistake: if you are trying to heal, hypervigilance, and seeing ourselves as prey, are not an ideal destination. they are the identifying mark of the wounded.

we live in a world where 30% of the population may have a mental illness at any given time (more with traits). total avoidance of difficult people, heartbreak, and all around risk, isnt practical. it behooves us to adapt to a changing world; to "grow a pair", and go out there equipped to thrive, rather than shrink.

if you were a recovering alcoholic, would you rather be the person who has to avoid every place that serves drinks, or the one that is strong enough to enter, spend time with your friends, abstain from temptation, and have a good time?

in my thirteen years here/post breakup, ive observed tens of thousands of recoveries. in that same time, ive read (fewer) thousands of these post breakup exchanges.

about 65% of them are innocuous and about logistics. the other 35% are some combination of: 1. continuation of the relationship conflict and sniping 2. catching up later down the road when the ice has thawed to express regrets and end things on a better note. and yes, 3. unfinished business, where one or both parties want to reconcile.

those numbers are typical of post breakup communication; not unique to bpd. the thing about them though, is that whatever they say, or dont say, there are always some of us holding up a big  sign, warning of the risks of "being sucked back in", or hidden meanings, or even things that clearly dont apply - im not at all sure how we got from a happy birthday wish from an ex, and an obligatory "thanks", to whether its a good idea or not to get back into a relationship when neither the author nor the OP have indicated any hope or interest in such a thing. is this more about our own lingering wounds?

there is a fundamental difference between guarding our hearts from those who would do us harm, and jumping at shadows based on past experiences. learning that difference, after a bad breakup, one that understandably left us wounded, is key to healing, to trust, to being open and vulnerable to new love, and to having the confidence in ourselves to navigate and thrive.

a personality disorder is not a superpower, it is a skills deficit. it is a deficit in coping skills, in relationship skills, and in social skills. in a world of predator vs prey, people with bpd are the gazelle; not the "kings and queens of the jungle" we want to be.

moreover, master manipulators do not sit around and think about whether or not someone is pining for them three months later, and decide to cram painstakingly coded messages into a one line birthday wish to find out. seriously: does anyone?

the fact that we were manipulated (assuming we were) does not mean, necessarily, that the other person is particularly skilled in manipulation. it doesnt even mean they were trying to manipulate us. it may just mean we found ourselves compromised in a dysfunctional and complex relationship bond, and were, in fact, easily manipulated.

and if we respond to the things that life throws at us, as prey, then we still are.

I like this

[findinggratitude]

“I CANNOT sustain, heal, or uphold this person; or any other person. I don’t have that power. If I try, it’ll suck me dry, and they won’t be any better. They’re ill. And they treated me badly. And it’s left me with a lot of conflicting feelings, which I’m still trying to figure out. But I KNOW I don’t want to be in an abusive relationship, even if those relationships have a weirdly addictive quality. So I’m going to pack away my false sense of shame, recognise that she’s ill; I’ll grieve it, and then set my face towards the future and look for a girl who I’m crazy about *who can sustain and uphold herself, and will not ask me to do it for her*.”

Snailshell, you nailed it. For me, anyway. You kind of took Horatio's "method" but added the "orienting" element that maybe was lacking for me in what he said. Although sometimes those short little reminders, like, "knock it off" are easy to follow for now, right?

and this: BPD folk really defy this ability… they act in self contradictory ways, do weird things, pile on guilt and shame, gaslight, manipulate… it’s  super hard to work a coherent, helpful, accurate narrative and meaning from that.

That's essentially the driving force that led us all here. I mean, a google search in and of itself is a sign of something! It's kind of that simple. But it's also not simple because coherence is BRUTAL in these cases, hence the ongoing posts

[findinggratitude]

the fact that we were manipulated (assuming we were) does not mean, necessarily, that the other person is particularly skilled in manipulation. it doesnt even mean they were trying to manipulate us. it may just mean we found ourselves compromised in a dysfunctional and complex relationship bond, and were, in fact, easily manipulated.


I agree with this, too. I think the "truth" (for me, because, really, what is the truth but our own perception) lies somewhere between what onceremoved is saying here, and Horatiox has said. And BOTH are really helpful to me. I am certain my ex is oblivious to most of her "ways" and also agree that applying the predator/prey analogy is way too extreme, but there's a hint of reality in there (even if I am weaker than I might typically be right now in the aftermath of all of this) but the flouresence of it all will fade with time, and already has to a large degree. She's just a troubled person who did damage to me. It's really not much more than that, and it's really about how I want to respond to it.

[findinggratitude]

it behooves us to adapt to a changing world; to "grow a pair", and go out there equipped to thrive, rather than shrink.

Honestly, I can feel this happening, and this is my ultimate goal. And, I can see it emerging in so many other people on this board, which is truly inspiring and just plain cool to witness. the ability for people to adjust and change in the face of extreme emotional upheaval is really incredible.

[findinggratitude]

Yes, and this might be some BS idea from me, so do discern carefully - but trying to prove your goodness to someone can also constitute trying to be Godlike for them (however unintentionally).


YES! We are saying the same thing here I have come to a similar conclusion!

[findinggratitude]

Yes, and this might be some BS idea from me, so do discern carefully - but trying to prove your goodness to someone can also constitute trying to be Godlike for them (however unintentionally).


YES! We are saying the same thing here I have come to a similar conclusion!

But whatever you do, do it for the right reasons - and remember to see with clarity.

She’s ill. You haven’t fully healed here yet. Clarity and truth is EVERYTHING. And you really ought not to do something which will throw you into ongoing, increasing confusion (whatever that may be).

Herein lies the challenge, and hence why I am relentlessly posting about this. ha. I think I may have just figured out how to post an excerpt. About time!

[findinggratitude]

the fact that we were manipulated (assuming we were) does not mean, necessarily, that the other person is particularly skilled in manipulation. it doesnt even mean they were trying to manipulate us. it may just mean we found ourselves compromised in a dysfunctional and complex relationship bond, and were, in fact, easily manipulated.


I agree with this, too. I think the "truth" (for me, because, really, what is the truth but our own perception) lies somewhere between what onceremoved is saying here, and Horatiox has said. And BOTH are really helpful to me. I am certain my ex is oblivious to most of her "ways" and also agree that applying the predator/prey analogy is way too extreme, but there's a hint of reality in there (even if just becaus of the fact I am weaker than I might typically be right now in the aftermath of all of this) but the flouresence of it all will fade with time, and already has to a large degree, which will lend to a more centered perspective. She's just a troubled person who did damage to me. It's really not much more than that, and it's really about how I want to respond to it.

[findinggratitude]

Whoops. Perhaps I have not figured out the excerpting feature. Sorry everyone!

[findinggratitude]

This will be my last post in my sudden flurry, I promise

[findinggratitude]

orrrr this will be. My computer is acting up!

cram painstakingly coded messages

I suspect onceremoved may disagree with me, but I am certain there is an element of codedness in her email, because honestly every last thing she wrote to me was coded throughout the relationship. She was always hunting for info and details to either use against me (or actually, herself....i.e. "proof" I wasn't "in it" enough, or cheating or "didn't really love or like her"). And I know this because after rounds of beating around the bush she would eventually "crack" and have an emotional outburst of sorts in which her true (paranoid and distrustful) feelings were revealed, and all the questions and mining for what seemed like innocuous details of my day or life would make sense.

In this case I think the "code" is that she is probably hoping for the same thing I am, some sort of closure or just the 'I'm okay, you're okay" energy. However, where I remain hesitatant lies in the fact that I'm not sure I want to engage in that language of codedness anymore, period. If someone can't directly say, or feel, "I'm sorry for how I handled things" and THEN send the birthday wishes, it, again, feels wildly "off". To just sort of dismiss or ignore what happened 3 months ago demonstrates the communication and social skills I require even in very basic interaction. And while I also agree she is more of a gazelle than a lion, maybe I should just accept I am allergic to gazelles!

[Daylight70]

Because I do think that little email was a first drizzle of a storm to come, if I let it. Things never went any differently as soon as I added any input to the "conversations". The only way things could go was for me to just hitch a ride on her whims and the rollercoaster of her mood-shifts and impulses, all the while supporting and validating and applauding them, even when they were horrible decisions or completely warped thought processes. I am still quite anxious that a lack of response could incite some thunder and lightening to come...and I realize more than anything (well, along with my misguided drive to prove my "goodness") is what urges me to write her back. Fear is consistently the motivator behind anything I might do, or did, with her, and that's just sick (on my end). And is making her, well, the Godlike figure snailshell mentioned earlier

I can completely understand your fear that not replying might incite some thunder and lightning. In the eyes of a person with BPD, not replying might be seen as "proof" of something; that you never really loved her, it was all fake, you're a player, that you're aloof, or whatever other nonsense.

But on the other hand, replying is also a risk, that she'll use that foot in the door to open it wide and flood you with crazy stuff that makes you feel even more inclined to reply and try to calm things, or justify/explain/whatever.

One way people with BPD can suck you back in is by raging at you so much that you're dragged back in to try and stand your ground, deny false accusations or whatever. Or they'll make terrible threats that make you feel you have no choice but to be dragged back in or face awful consequences. It can feel like the lesser of two evils. And suddenly you're back in the thick of it.

So there's no option that is a win. But at least by not replying, you're on the safer side of the wall.

[findinggratitude]

Daylight, you have essentially reiterated my sentiments exactly in that last post, and, at least for today, this is where I have landed (subject to change ;)).

At this point, I have moved somewhat away from the quandary of whether or not to reply, and more to analyze and figure out why it's a challenge for me to decide either way. So, the focus is more on my inner life around all of this, more than a feeling like I have trigger-fingers and need to "do" something like write back right now. Sometimes not writing is an act of "doing" even if it doesn't feel that way. And in this moment, I suspect that's the best move for my own well-being, and honestly, hers as well. There is enough residual angst around this, which is evident by all the posting I've done about it, to determine I'm not ready to put myself in a position of her responding in a way that doesn't at least in the smallest way, take ownership of what she did.

I am taking into account much of what everyone has said, and I have found a lot of wisdom and thoughtfulness in essentially ALL of the replies, it's just like looking at a many sided figure from all angles and deciding what approach works best for me and why. At this point I am trying to be cognizant of the aspects of fear that are misguided or reactive, and the difference between "guarding my heart" or emotional well being and jumping at shadows, as once removed mentioned.

I will say, for what it's worth, I don't think she is trying to work her way back into a relationship, at least not in a romantic manner, but anything is possible. I know I am not. But is there a small part of me that hopes that's where she's coming from? If I look deeply internally, the answer is yes. For my ego? For some sort of affirmation? I'm not sure yet. For certain not to get mired back in it, but even wanting her to come back to me in that way as "proof" (here we go with that word again) that I am "not bad" is problematic as far as the mindset I'm in. It's not something I am consumed by, more just lightly aware that's part of what's going on here.

[Daylight70]

I will say, for what it's worth, I don't think she is trying to work her way back into a relationship, at least not in a romantic manner, but anything is possible. I know I am not. But is there a small part of me that hopes that's where she's coming from? If I look deeply internally, the answer is yes. For my ego? For some sort of affirmation? I'm not sure yet. For certain not to get mired back in it, but even wanting her to come back to me in that way as "proof" (here we go with that word again) that I am "not bad" is problematic as far as the mindset I'm in. It's not something I am consumed by, more just lightly aware that's part of what's going on here.

It's this kind of self-awareness that is likely your greatest strength in healing. Even if some aspects of what's going on inside you remain a mystery at the moment, just recognising the questions of yourself is powerful.

I think I'm in a similar situation, though only a week into no-contact for me, following around 4 years of painful rollercoaster life with my ex-pwBPD. Feeling the same kinds of inner conflicts, fears and indecision. For me, I've realised that a lot of my current inner mindset is a direct consequence of the abuse/gaslighting/projection; it's like a kind of brainwashing. The alternating rage and love-bombing trains us to try to fall into line and do our best to keep the pwBPD on the good side, trying to appease them, and avoid triggering them. It causes us to over-think everything, look for tiny clues/codes, consider possible consequences of everything in detail, and anything else that can help us navigate the rollercoaster. And this is the mental legacy we're left with once we escape. And I think the only way to heal from it all is to self-reflect on our own thinking, which is precisely why I think you're probably on the right path. Good luck my friend!

[findinggratitude]

It's funny, I always say that indecision is the root of poor mental health (in an otherwise mentally healthy person) and, like you said, Daylight, it's the indecision with everrryyy little thing when it comes to these dynamics that can be very unsettling . I mean this sort of indecision has carried on even after the fact, right? I've had other breakups and after the initial heartache or shift in lifestyle, I've had no problem just adapting to that new reality, but I think because our reality was altered by the chaos of the interactions with these partners, this healing is two-fold-recovering from a relationship ending (or blowing up, or being iced out with no closure, whatever the case may be) and reorientating ourselves to what's real, what our own perception of reality is outside of their influence, etc. In some ways it's sort of a gift; we have an opportunity to really make some life assessments and self-inspection that we wouldn't have had we not been affected by these relationships.