How much do we cover SD16's dinner this week

[kells76]

Previous thread here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358478.0

H and I (and my parents) took over taking SD16 to school 4 days a week. We all bring food in the car when we pick up SD16 so that she can add more to her lunch if she wants. Sometimes she takes everything and sometimes she doesn't. H and I and my parents are all on board with this setup -- if she wants real food we are happy to provide that (versus us buying her junk food or giving her cash). It's not like we're bringing kale and quinoa, it's middle of the road stuff -- I'd rather she ate healthier but OK, if she'll do packaged granola bars and fruit cups, I can compromise.

SD16 is in the school play and it's tech week, which means rehearsals every day after school during dinner time. The kids get a 30min dinner break in the 4pm range. H's parenting time this week is Wednesday after school thru ~7pm and Friday after school thru ~8p, so we are already planning to go to SD16's school and get dinner with her in the area those evenings. Last night I offered to send extra food for dinner tonight (Monday), and SD16 was kind of "eh" about it. I brought extra food when I picked her up for school this morning but she didn't take it. To be fair, the school doesn't have lockers or a fridge, so it is hard to (a) carry around a bunch of extra food, or (b) hold on to fridge food in a bag for hours.

It's not clear yet what the dinner plans are for tonight, Tuesday, or Thursday. H and I talked with just each other about it, and we're mostly on the same page: it's Mom's time so technically it's Mom's responsibility to make sure SD16 is fed, whatever that looks like -- sending money, sending food, driving food over, or telling SD16 "you need to plan ahead and pack a dinner from home, because that's what we can afford and you're old enough to be responsible for that". If I knew it was one of those options I'd feel fine. We have no issue with Mom covering it however she sees fit, and we are also OK with offering to send dinner food with SD16. H is not really OK with us sending money with SD16 for dinner because at what point is it (a) us overstepping/rescuing, or (b) just getting crazy that we are paying CS and then paying for more food. I'm a little more OK with sending money because I'm mostly past the anger/judgment about what Mom "should" be doing and more at "I don't care whose day it is, let's take care of the kids". I do think there's enough trust between us and SD16 that if we said "here's this cash, please make sure to buy real food with it like protein and a smoothie, not just chips and soda" that she would genuinely try.

SD16 is a picky eater, and SD18 has worried in the past that even though technically there is food at Mom's, it's not food that SD16 actually eats -- worried to the point that she accepted my help in making a grocery list for Mom so that Mom would buy things SD16 ate. So it is possible that there is food at Mom's and she just isn't packing it because she won't actually eat it. Again, if the situation is that Mom has said "you're 16, it's time for you to be responsible for your dinner this week, and that might mean eating stuff you don't love" then I'm fine with telling SD16 "Mom and us are on the same page, we aren't sending dinner money just because you don't love the options we can afford".

I'm just really right on the line with this one. Feeding the kids is a priority and there is history of Mom sometimes not doing that -- both the kids used to have a Wednesday extracurricular, so we'd pick them up from school, do an after school snack, and take them to the activity, and because we'd drop them off back at Mom's at 7pm, we assumed that she would feed them dinner. She did not.

At some point we can't just keep paying extra money for things that aren't our responsibilities, I think? We've already bought a fire extinguisher, smoke alarms, flea treatments, and the occasional bag of groceries for Mom's house. We do want the kids to be safe and fed, but at what point do we decline to step in and let the kids experience yet more of Mom not taking care of them?

Also, H and I both work ~15-20 miles away from SD16's school, so it's not a quick thing to drive over to bring food or take her out, and her dinner break is during our work hours.

IDK... I think H or I will need to just flat out ask SD16 tomorrow how she navigated Monday dinner, and if Mom's house does have food but it's just a hassle or she doesn't love it, or if Mom's house does not have food, or if Mom is doing anything to feed her. I have fears that if I hear "Mom doesn't buy groceries" that we are heading towards a second CPS call.

I think my hangup is that the "easy" solution of giving SD16 dinner money both might be "rescuing" behavior on my part, and is also the slippery slope of -- at some point H and I cannot afford to pay for everything Mom isn't doing. Is it actually a more loving thing to do to not "easy rescue" SD16 and instead to say "here are the options: pack a dinner from Mom's, pack a dinner from Dad's, work it out with Mom on Mom's nights, or do something else you come up with, because buying dinner out 5 nights in a row isn't in our budget" -- and she might be hungry a couple of nights but that isn't because Mom's house doesn't have food and it's not because we didn't offer extra food?

Would love to hear your thoughts on navigating this. Maybe I'm blowing this up into a bigger thing than it really needs to be, and if so, I need to hear it.

[Notwendy]

but at what point do we decline to step in and let the kids experience yet more of Mom not taking care of them?

As usual, I try to add the perspective of the child involved.

I'd be willing to bet that by now SD 16 has experienced plenty of "mom not taking care of them". Most people had no clue what we experienced as children. A lot of it I don't talk about or post because- it's difficult to even think about. I would be willing to bet that even you and your H haven't heard the whole of it.

It's possible to divorce a spouse, and also have another spouse. There are benefits to this- your H is happier, the girls have the opportunity to experience a loving and stable home. But the kids- we can't divorce a mother- and have a different mother. This is the only mother we have. As adults we are responsible for ourselves and have choices. As kids, we are dependent on the adults to take care of us. If BPD mother doesn't and others step in, we are the beneficiaries of that. I knew exactly who was taking care of me.

I would not ever suggest parents compromise themselves too much financially but if possible, I'd err towards providing funds for dinner for the child to whatever extent you are able to.

Not providing this so that their mother will step up- consider the mother hasn't stepped up in 16 years. Doing this isn't going to change anything except the child doesn't get dinner. So there are two possible lessons here- one is to let the child experience her mother in hopes that the mother will possibly step up. The other is that- her Dad is either there for her no matter what or he left her to deal with her mother and added to the neglect.

Yes, you are already doing more than your share and that is probably a source of resentment for your H. My father did more than his share of parenting too- but I surely knew that. I knew exactly who was taking care of me growing up. I didn't need for Dad to not do it to show me that. It also would not have resulted in BPD mother being more responsible. It doesn't change that she has BPD and is probably functioning to her capacity.

It may not be fair to your H but I don't think it ever is fair. However, if seeking fairness with a BPD mother- I think it's more likely that the child will not have dinner than for her mother to step up.

Your H is thinking logically in dollars and that is important. However, there's an emotional aspect to money. You aren't just giving the child money for dinner, you are sending a message with this too. If this were something non essential - I think it's different. But this is food and she may be picky but students don't usually go to expensive places to eat and hopefully something affordable is available.

Just my 2 cents here. Hope it helped.

[ForeverDad]

I wondered whether D16 would decide to "vote with her feet" but I recall (1) her mother historically has treated the girls as virtual extensions of herself and (2) she has a younger stepbrother in that home.  Still, she's old enough that she can herself decide ("vote") to spend more time in her father's home (and eat better).  After all, by the time family court would rule on a parenting schedule change she'd be nearly an adult anyway.  But I suspect she's so emotionally compromised she may not be able to choose even small improvements to the schedule.

[Notwendy]

But I suspect she's so emotionally compromised she may not be able to choose even small improvements to the schedule.

Yes but also may feel responsible for her mother's feelings if she did choose to spend more time at her Dad's house. If her mother is upset about it, she may blame her for that.

Also at 16, she's old enough to be a  helper at home and an emotional caretaker for her BPD mother. This may be a way for her to gain approval from her mother, and this still matters as a teen ( any age, really).

It may take a while for you and your H to see results of your parenting efforts. Not many teens are aware of how to be a parent, how to act as a responsible adult, what a more "normal" relatioship is like,  but you are making a difference for her and setting an example of these for her, even if she isn't able emotionally to make her own choices yet.

[kells76]

Notwendy

I'd be willing to bet that by now SD 16 has experienced plenty of "mom not taking care of them". Most people had no clue what we experienced as children. A lot of it I don't talk about or post because- it's difficult to even think about. I would be willing to bet that even you and your H haven't heard the whole of it.

I suspect you're right and I wish you weren't.

Not providing this so that their mother will step up- consider the mother hasn't stepped up in 16 years. Doing this isn't going to change anything except the child doesn't get dinner. So there are two possible lessons here- one is to let the child experience her mother in hopes that the mother will possibly step up. The other is that- her Dad is either there for her no matter what or he left her to deal with her mother and added to the neglect.

That's a good reminder; the situation isn't just about "will Mom do her job or not", it's also about -- there's an opportunity to give SD16 more experiences of Dad taking care of her, and that's really important, too, for continuing to build the relationship.

Yes, you are already doing more than your share and that is probably a source of resentment for your H. My father did more than his share of parenting too- but I surely knew that. I knew exactly who was taking care of me growing up. I didn't need for Dad to not do it to show me that. It also would not have resulted in BPD mother being more responsible. It doesn't change that she has BPD and is probably functioning to her capacity.

It may not be fair to your H but I don't think it ever is fair. However, if seeking fairness with a BPD mother- I think it's more likely that the child will not have dinner than for her mother to step up.

Your H is thinking logically in dollars and that is important. However, there's an emotional aspect to money. You aren't just giving the child money for dinner, you are sending a message with this too. If this were something non essential - I think it's different. But this is food and she may be picky but students don't usually go to expensive places to eat and hopefully something affordable is available.

I am grateful that since the kids disclosed so much to us earlier this year, H has turned a corner with his mindset (not that he was fully rigid/a stickler for "the rules" before, but he may have been more stuck on the "shoulds"). It has been so much more clear to him that we need to step in wherever needed for the kids, because I think the revelation about Mom's house drove it home -- she can't be counted on. So back in April, when we picked up driving SD16 to school, he was fully on board with it right away, vs staying frustrated that it was Mom's parenting time so if she wanted that parenting time she should be parenting.

I agree that the fact that it's food/meals, vs non-essentials, has been a big factor in my debate. It's not like SD16 wanted tickets to some event, where we could say "Sure, it would be amazing to be able to go to that, and it's so disappointing that none of us can afford it right now".

It helps to talk through this... thank you.

[kells76]

@ForeverDad

I wondered whether D16 would decide to "vote with her feet" but I recall (1) her mother historically has treated the girls as virtual extensions of herself and (2) she has a younger stepbrother in that home.  Still, she's old enough that she can herself decide ("vote") to spend more time in her father's home (and eat better).  After all, by the time family court would rule on a parenting schedule change she'd be nearly an adult anyway.  But I suspect she's so emotionally compromised she may not be able to choose even small improvements to the schedule.

Exactly -- it takes a long time to get out of the enmeshment, and I think at some level (especially with SD18 on another international trip), SD16 knows or believes that someone needs to keep an eye on B12.

It is promising that she is not resistant to spending time with us any more, and even though there are occasional overnights where she is like "can I sleep at Mom's tonight, it's not that I don't want to spend time with you", she doesn't use that as a way to avoid us (she cooperates with being picked up the next day) and it isn't every overnight weekend.

Yeah, she's doing the best she can as a 16 year old to manage living in the emotional dysfunction. She is proud of working to improve her grades, does extracurriculars, spends a lot of time with friends (who seem generally positive), and has built a lot of trust with us in terms of if she wants to stay out late, agreeing on a pickup time and following through. She's really a great 16 year old, all things considered. It does seem like she is able to focus on age appropriate peer relationships (friend groups & 1x1 friend time) instead of "I can't be here, I need to go take care of Mom's house".

Maybe H and I just need to be really patient, knowing it may be way too much for her to make a huge statement like moving in with us. We can be compassionate that she's under a ton of pressure even if she isn't aware of it.

Interestingly, she watched a friend in a school play at a different school the other night, and when I picked her up, she was raving about the theater and the program -- so much so that she said she'd seriously consider transferring. To her credit she said she'd finish out the school year at her current HS and would need to think through pros and cons of a transfer.

It's our district HS (not Mom's district HS)... so if she wants to go there, it would finally be Dad's address as the school purposes address. That would be amazing. We may let SD16 know if she wants to pursue going to that HS, that she'd have in-district priority (over the transfer lottery) if we use Dad's address.

H and I are fine either way... her current HS is a long way away, but we aren't going to push her to our local HS, even though having her go to school 10 minutes away would be a first. We'll see what she decides later next year.

[kells76]

Notwendy

Yes but also may feel responsible for her mother's feelings if she did choose to spend more time at her Dad's house. If her mother is upset about it, she may blame her for that.

Also at 16, she's old enough to be a  helper at home and an emotional caretaker for her BPD mother. This may be a way for her to gain approval from her mother, and this still matters as a teen ( any age, really).

SD16 has heard Mom and Stepdad blame SD18 (for the CPS call) and it made SD18 cry, so it makes sense that SD16 would want to avoid being blamed by her mom. I don't think any kid wants that.

She has wanted Mom's approval very much in the past, I think because for so long, SD18 got so much attention as the "golden child", and SD16 got so little attention or approval. I don't know if that's still as strong, but it's likely there.

It may take a while for you and your H to see results of your parenting efforts. Not many teens are aware of how to be a parent, how to act as a responsible adult, what a more "normal" relatioship is like,  but you are making a difference for her and setting an example of these for her, even if she isn't able emotionally to make her own choices yet.

It makes sense along with what FD was saying -- it's probably just way too much for her right now to really differentiate, so it's on H and I to be patient and compassionate.

...

H and I talked last night, and we think we have a workaround. We haven't increased SD16's allowance in a long time, so we're OK with bumping it up significantly. He plans to chat with her on the drive to school this morning, share what we're willing to do, and ask her to use that to take over responsibility for makeup & clothes & eating out when we're not together, and ask that when she does buy food with it, she do her best to choose nutritious things, not just chips and soda. We trust her enough not to police how she spends the money, and we also trust that if we ask her to try to pick nutritious food, she'll do her best.

It's not that I don't want to know more of what's going on at Mom's in terms of food/groceries, but it still feels icky to ask the kids to tell me "so is Mom buying food?" I'd rather not put them in the position of telling me negative things about Mom's if I don't have to. I guess I feel like it's on H and I as the adults to figure out solving these things without the key variable being the kids dishing about what Mom doesn't do.

They're in the car right now, so fingers crossed it goes well -- I think it will.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I have two disordered ex-spouses with partial custody of children in my extended family.  One parent I'm pretty sure has NPD, and the other I don't know well enough to judge, but what is clear to me is that the parent is high-conflict and takes medications of some sort for mental health.  While these parents might mean well and love their kids, they live in highly chaotic homes, similar to what you describe (pests, messiness, unstructured/unhealthy eating).  They also chafe at all the work that parenting entails.  Any financial assistance they receive goes primarily to satisfy their own wants and needs, and not necessarily those of the children.  By the same token, I think the children love these disordered parents, even if daily life with them can be chaotic.  They enjoy freedoms--unlimited screen time, up all night, no chores, etc.--and so these homes can be considered the "fun" ones.  But healthy meals are lacking, much if not most of the time.

If I were you, I'd err on the side of helping the child, even if it's financially costly.  I know you probably pay child support, but I'd assume the funds are used mainly for ex-spousal support.  If the child were younger, I'd suggest packing "snacks" so that you're sure the child has something to eat.  Because the child is older, maybe you just ask:  "Would you like me to pack you a hearty snack so that you have something you like to eat after school?"  Or, "There's a bag of snacks ready to go in the fridge, go ahead and take it if you think you'll need it."  If she doesn't take you up on the offer, then fine.  But I bet she'll appreciate having that option.  If it's called a "snack" rather than "dinner," maybe the child won't feel like she's betraying mom?  And if it's packed and ready to go, I bet she takes it.  At 16, kids are still growing, and school and activities can be really taxing.  They need good nutrition to keep up with it all.

Just my two cents.

[kells76]

CC43

I think the children love these disordered parents, even if daily life with them can be chaotic.

That's a good reminder -- the kids have their own experience of Mom's house, and there's a lot that feels familiar, comfortable, fun, and loving there. The most important thing isn't that I'm successful in making the kids adopt my view of Mom & Stepdad, it's that I remember that they have a mom and they love her and want love from her, and I don't become one more person forcing them to take sides.

Because the child is older, maybe you just ask:  "Would you like me to pack you a hearty snack so that you have something you like to eat after school?"  Or, "There's a bag of snacks ready to go in the fridge, go ahead and take it if you think you'll need it."  If she doesn't take you up on the offer, then fine.  But I bet she'll appreciate having that option.  If it's called a "snack" rather than "dinner," maybe the child won't feel like she's betraying mom?

Interesting thought about if accepting "dinner" from us could be "betraying" Mom... when BPD is involved, that's a live question. I think SD18 has more of an antenna for that than SD16, and in the past, would've been more reactive -- "Mom is a great mom, I don't need that from you". SD16, though, has less of a sense of what others would think of as "betraying the family", and also has always been more focused on doing whatever it takes (very resourceful) to get her needs met. She has been accepting lunches/snacks from us when we drive her to school, so that's a relief. I think her sense of self-preservation outweighs any sense of "this means Mom isn't taking care of me, and Mom would be so sad", so kudos to SD16.

Definitely grateful that she accepts our support.

[zachira]

These are the important years when your step children are developing their adult selves. The more they can experience how much you and their father care about them, the more likely they will be healthier and happier adults and less like their mother.

[Notwendy]

CC43


Interesting thought about if accepting "dinner" from us could be "betraying" Mom... when BPD is involved, that's a live question. I think SD18 has more of an antenna for that than SD16, and in the past, would've been more reactive -- "Mom is a great mom, I don't need that from you". SD16, though, has less of a sense of what others would think of as "betraying the family", and also has always been more focused on doing whatever it takes (very resourceful) to get her needs met. She has been accepting lunches/snacks from us when we drive her to school, so that's a relief. I think her sense of self-preservation outweighs any sense of "this means Mom isn't taking care of me, and Mom would be so sad", so kudos to SD16.

Definitely grateful that she accepts our support.

We had to act as if my BPD mother was a good mother and all was normal at home. It was a family secret. We were not allowed to say anything negative about her. Children do love their parents, even a disordered one, in general. It was confusing as I was mostly afraid of my mother.

It's been more recent that in our relationship now- with me being an adult and she being elderly and needing assistance, that I see the situation from this perspective. She's very disordered and can't even manage herself. She was in the position of authority when I was a teen ager.

I think teens are capable of understanding a family budget. There is an emotional aspect to how people spend their money no matter what amount they have and it also reflects their value system. FOO experiences also play a part. How money was handled in my FOO was disordered - because the family dynamics were. I think it's important to not over indulge a child, and have boundaries and expectations, but also take note of the emotional message money has. The numbers are objective and important but there's more to consider.

What your D16 is doing in school is a positive thing. School and extra curriculars, and friends were positive experiences for me. Parenting teens is complicated because- we want to foster independence and let them handle their own challenges but also give enough support so that they can be successful. I think in my situation, the money for dinner from Dad would send a message "I am here for you, and I support what you are doing" that would be far greater than the actual amount given.

[kells76]

H chatted with SD16 the other morning and (no surprise) she definitely wanted the allowance increase    and said it would be helpful. He took her out to dinner on her break last night, so she got hot food.

What your D16 is doing in school is a positive thing. School and extra curriculars, and friends were positive experiences for me. Parenting teens is complicated because- we want to foster independence and let them handle their own challenges but also give enough support so that they can be successful. I think in my situation, the money for dinner from Dad would send a message "I am here for you, and I support what you are doing" that would be far greater than the actual amount given.

That's helpful to hear your point of view. I think we can hope that it's the same message in our situation, and at some level she'll know we are paying attention and care about what's important to her.

It's a little wild to be able to completely solve a problem in a BPD family system -- if that makes sense. I rarely expect to be able to resolve an issue or find a totally satisfying/appropriate solution, so this feels kind of surreal, like "Wow, it is possible".

Who knows what the future will bring, but for now -- for today -- there's resolution.

[ABetterWay]

 @Notwendy - your first post to the thread was INCREDIBLY helpful for me.  I'm also in the stepmom role and SO struggles with having to provide even more for the kids/BM not stepping up to where she should.  Yeah, it's frustrating and there is a finite limit to his resources - but at the end of the day it is about making sure the kids needs (especially basic needs) are met.

"Our" 3 are quite young, but the older two (8 and almost 7) are picking up on differences between the two houses.  BM's house is primary, and where the family all lived together before the split.  So to them it feels even more like "home" than their place with Dad and I (thought Dad and I are trying to work to make sure that they feel at home/comfortable here too).  BM's house has less rules around snacks (amount and type - aka more junk food), screen time, behavior, bedtimes, and more take out/unstructured meals.  But we're noticing when they have deadlines that matter (school projects, field trips, extra curricular sign ups) the kids are coming to us directly to handle.  And occasionally they make comments on the fact that they are asking us to do it because they know BM won't get it done in time.  We're also seeing signs that they appreciate the structure we provide and that they know what's expected of them while here (but ya know - kids - so they do still need some reminding).  The older 2 are also feeling more secure in their place among all the changes, and are bringing the youngest (she just turned 3 and is just starting to understand the back and forth) along with them the best we can.

The kids are bringing some of the differences from here back over to BM's apparently with comments and such.  Right now, BM is in a place where she can be open to these changes and there are a couple of things like more consistent bedtimes that have been equalized between the two houses.  That doesn't mean that over time she won't lash out towards the kids if she views it as them preferring us (aka abandoning her).

I don't know that the 3 of them will ever choose to live with us over mom, so it's nice to see ways and feedback in how we can continue to support them even when not primary.  I also think that they will remain as a pack (especially since the older 2 are so close in age), and likely won't make a switch unless they all agree to do so.

[CC43]

@ABetterWay,

One phenomenon I've observed in two different chaotic families with custody arrangements is that children tend to identify most with the same-sex parent.  So if the disordered parent is the biological mom, it's the daughter(s) who suffers most.  Conversely, if the disordered parent is the biological dad, it's the son(s) who suffers most.  By suffering, I mean the internal conflict within the child, who desperately wants to love (and be loved by) the disordered parent but simultaneously is angry at the parent for not meeting the child's needs.  In addition, if there is any discussion at the other household--about meals, bedtimes or any other logistical issues, even if there is no direct disparagement of the offending parent--the child could feel simultaneously defensive and angry.  The child might act out in some way.

I guess what I'm suggesting is to pay extra attention to the same-sex child, and maybe be a little extra accommodating, understanding that he or she probably has underlying conflicting feelings.  I imagine that the more disordered the parent is, the greater the internal conflict is.  If as adults, we are concerned about the disordered parent's behavior, I imagine that for the child it's all-consuming, as their whole world revolves around the parent-child relationship, and at the same time, they are trying to figure out who they are as they grow up.

Another concerning phenomenon is parentification, where the child over-compensates for the dysfunction of the parent.  That can add a lot of stress to the child.  In an ideal world, the child will learn to be resilient and very independent.  But I'd suggest vigilance, because if the child is acting exceedingly mature and taking on too many adult tasks, the tendency is to "reward" the child with even more responsibilities, and the child possibly misses out on being a kid.  He or she could ultimately break down (from stress or exhaustion) and resent it.

[Notwendy]

I am glad that sharing my experiences are helping others.

It's hard to know which child is most affected- I think all children are but possibly in different ways.

My BPD mother is very disordered and also can be quite mean. She's predominantly BPD but has a lot of NPD traits. She is not maternal or domestically inclined. Early on, I noticed she acted different from other mothers. It makes sense that ABetterWay's very young children notice too. Not only your home but their friends' homes.

I knew I did not want to be like my mother. Dad was the more capable and stable parent and so I gravitated towards him. What I didn't realize until adulthood is that my father enabled my mother. I think this is all he knew to do at the time. This wasn't just "normal" behavior in our family- it was expected and encouraged and reinforced. (I had a lot of work to do as an adult on these behaviors).

My female role models were other women- my father's family, my friends' mothers. My parents stayed together but we spent a lot of time staying with his extended family. This was a positive influence- so for the step mothers here and divorced families- even if it doesn't seem that you are doing a lot - you are.

One thing that CC4 brought up is the chance to be kids and this also includes being kids without fear. . I think we were good kids in general but there was some mischief when we were with our cousins- normal kid mischief. We didn't have to walk on eggshells for fear of BPD mother's reactions. I think kids need boundaries and discipline but it needs to match the misbehavior.The slightest mistake could lead to a rage from BPD mother. If we got out of line at his father's family, a warning was all we needed.  My father's family would not have tolerated serious misbehavior but we didn't do that. So, if you find the kids act up a bit at your place- it's possibly because they feel safe enough to act like kids.

[ABetterWay]

@ABetterWay,

One phenomenon I've observed in two different chaotic families with custody arrangements is that children tend to identify most with the same-sex parent.  So if the disordered parent is the biological mom, it's the daughter(s) who suffers most.  Conversely, if the disordered parent is the biological dad, it's the son(s) who suffers most.  By suffering, I mean the internal conflict within the child, who desperately wants to love (and be loved by) the disordered parent but simultaneously is angry at the parent for not meeting the child's needs.  In addition, if there is any discussion at the other household--about meals, bedtimes or any other logistical issues, even if there is no direct disparagement of the offending parent--the child could feel simultaneously defensive and angry.  The child might act out in some way.

I guess what I'm suggesting is to pay extra attention to the same-sex child, and maybe be a little extra accommodating, understanding that he or she probably has underlying conflicting feelings.  I imagine that the more disordered the parent is, the greater the internal conflict is.  If as adults, we are concerned about the disordered parent's behavior, I imagine that for the child it's all-consuming, as their whole world revolves around the parent-child relationship, and at the same time, they are trying to figure out who they are as they grow up.

Another concerning phenomenon is parentification, where the child over-compensates for the dysfunction of the parent.  That can add a lot of stress to the child.  In an ideal world, the child will learn to be resilient and very independent.  But I'd suggest vigilance, because if the child is acting exceedingly mature and taking on too many adult tasks, the tendency is to "reward" the child with even more responsibilities, and the child possibly misses out on being a kid.  He or she could ultimately break down (from stress or exhaustion) and resent it.

Even more good advice!  The oldest is a boy, the younger two are girls.  BM also has a much older (20) daughter from a relationship prior to SO.  He...saw that one turn quite badly (BM kicked her kid out of the house at 13 or 14 - like put her things on the lawn kick out), and the two of them have run hot and cold ever since.  Her oldest daughter absolutely feels like she has to "take care" of her mom (and to an extent her younger siblings).  SO thought that since BM had the oldest as a teen that maybe they were too close in age/BM wasn't mature enough when raising her.  A couple years later and he figures out it's BM's BPD.  That daughter has moved across country in the past year, and we occasionally hear from her (SO has been in her life since she was 8) and it sounds like she is thriving since she's been able to get further away.

In the current set up, the oldest is a typical first born in that he likes to help out and be involved and is a bit more emotionally mature for his age.  He wants to do chores with Dad, thinks a lot about his future, will jump in to correct his sisters before we can (especially if it gets one of them in trouble, ).  We are on the lookout for parentification with him.  On his own he'll tackle big "adult" problems.  Over the summer he was hell bent to fix the hot tub at BM's - even though it had a cracked pump and was going to be more trouble than it was worth.  He saw it as a challenge and wanted to do it mostly on his own though.  We do get concerned when we hear about the chores he's doing over at BM's.  Some are good - sure, and they have theirs over here too.  Here we limit it to cleaning up their own messes/responsible for their own things for the most part.  We're finding out over there, BM is basically paying the oldest to clean up the house and everyone's messes.  And washing her pots and pans and (according to him) are in rough shape because they sit with food in them for so long.  BM tells him he's "man of the house now" and things like that.  He's a naturally slightly anxious kid, and we have seen him at times get overwhelmed with the responsibility.  SO is great at reminding him that he is welcome to help with xyz task, but that he doesn't HAVE to if he'd rather go do something else. 

I do see the older girl practically dying for BM's approval though.  Right now, she's content to do some of the things she wants to do with her mom with me instead.  Mostly along the lines of painting nails ("mom says she never has time to do mine") and brushing hair.  Her hair is thin and like most kids, gets INCREDIBLY knotted.  A trick I did early on was tell her she can brush mine (which is quite long) if she'll let me do hers first.  It works well and has become our "thing".  I'll let her play on my hair and learn how to braid and put it up and things like that with it.  BM is pretty vain and does NOT let the girls touch her hair.  I'm waiting for the anger spike to come from this one, especially as BM is spending more time taking care of her affair partner's kid that is older than older daughter and she starts to notice.  Aka - BM spent last Wed afternoon (our evenings with the kids) taking AP's kid to get her nails done at a salon, but constantly tells her own kid there's no time for nails.  There are other examples of these bids for attention that go ignored by BM as well.  I expect the push-pull from this one to be a lot.  Especially from the "I want these things but not just from YOU" angle.  Which is why I'm keeping my therapist at a once a month session so that I'm on the books to ramp up as needed. 

Too soon to tell about the youngest, but I fear BM may cling to her the hardest.  Especially since she's the last, and a bigger age gap between the 2nd two.  Also SO was pretty much out of the house by the time the youngest was born (BM started her affair while 6ish mo pregnant.  She and SO were on again off again trying to work things out.  Had the baby, and BM made it clear she was going to go back to the AP as soon as she could.  Full split happened by the time the youngest was around 4 mo old.), so she likes to tout that she's raising the youngest "all on her own - without SO's influence". 

We'll get there eventually, but sometimes I wish I had a crystal ball to see how this is all going to flesh out ahead of time.  Then I feel like we could be better prepared for the fallout.

[Notwendy]

For the boy, be careful about possible "emotional incest". It sounds creepy but it doesn't mean actual physical contact. It's when the adult substitutes the child for the emotional needs they would have with an adult partner.

It's not only the opposite sex. BPD mother would confide in me- and it was not appropriate for the age and relationship.

There isn't anything you can do about what happens at BPD mother's house. You can't control the dynamics there. I think letting the kids be at their actual age at your house helps. Chores are fine for kids but parentification isn't. I think the relationship the son has with his father -doing things together- is great. You are also a role model for him.

[EyesUp]

Hey Kells,

Glad it feels like there's some resolution or at least a path forward.

For my part, I don't have to worry about hot food - but some of the other dynamics you describe sure seem very familiar:  uBPDxw gets spicy when/if she discovers that the kids communicate with me during her parenting time. And they do:  To ask for rides from school to her house (all 3, individually, from 3 different schools, with 3 different schedules).  D16 has also recently started asking me for rides to/from her after school job on her mom's days, and ever increasing requests for money for toiletries, shampoo, etc., which tend to migrate to mom's house...

Like you, I'm a bit ambivalent - on one hand, I'm glad that the kids know that they can come to me.  On the other hand, it can be tricky to identify what part of this is dealing with the other parent vs. normal adolescent and pre-adolescent boundary pushing.  

Am I the parent that gets the requests for rides and money merely because my kids perceive that I'm an easy "yes" - or at least easier than mom?

Sometimes I need to remind myself that parenting is super dynamic at baseline. i.e., kids are constantly changing - just as you think you have it figured out, they change again - no matter what the other parent or the family dynamics are like.

In this context, I'm somewhat content to default to safety, consistency, and basic boundaries.

e.g., "you can always call me if you need me, but you need to remember that I may have a work meeting or some other commitment and I might not be able to come instantly" - I think that's what you're getting at: how to be there and be supportive, and yet also promote the independence and self sufficiency that kids growing up with enmeshment and parentification and attachment issues certainly need.  

I've arrived at this:  All parents need to deal with these dynamics on some level.  Our circumstances (i.e., when there is high conflict and/or dysfunction in the mix) make it more challenging, however attempting to reset my own baseline expectations can make it easier to frame decisions in terms of a) overtly supporting the kid vs. b) overtly promoting self-sufficiency.  Either way, I tend to feel more like an active/intentional parent - even though my kids probably don't perceive it.

Which way I go depends on the kid and the moment - and I definitely don't always get it right.

[ForeverDad]

Those informative heart-to-heart conversations are not a one and done.  Kids will forget.  Or they'll have new issues and not know how to voice them.  So reassuring them and picking up on their new issues is a regular and as-needed pattern to adopt.

[Notwendy]

Hey Kells,

 D16 has also recently started asking me for rides to/from her after school job on her mom's days, and ever increasing requests for money for toiletries, shampoo, etc., which tend to migrate to mom's house...

Like you, I'm a bit ambivalent - on one hand, I'm glad that the kids know that they can come to me.  On the other hand, it can be tricky to identify what part of this is dealing with the other parent vs. normal adolescent and pre-adolescent boundary pushing.  

Am I the parent that gets the requests for rides and money merely because my kids perceive that I'm an easy "yes" - or at least easier than mom?

Sometimes I need to remind myself that parenting is super dynamic at baseline. i.e., kids are constantly changing - just as you think you have it figured out, they change again - no matter what the other parent or the family dynamics are like.

In this context, I'm somewhat content to default to safety, consistency, and basic boundaries.

Which way I go depends on the kid and the moment - and I definitely don't always get it right.

Do we ever get it right with a teen ager? I think we do the best we can- and they to are trying to navigate the changes at adolescence.

Asking for rides is common and temporary. It's an in between stage where the kids are more autonomous and want to do something with peers but can't drive themselves yet. When teens can't drive yet, if they want to do something- they need someone to drive them. I tended to agree to the requests- I'd rather be the one driving.

Another reason is "car time". Car time is time with the kids. They are either talking to you or to each other if you are driving friends too ( and I recommend this- it's a chance to get to know their friends). It's a chance to connect with their world. Once they are driving themselves- this doesn't happen.

Wanting all the products and cosmetics. Teens are becoming more conscious of their appearance, body odor, they want to look their best. I think there's a bit of experimenting with them, so they may want to try different ones. This seems more with girls than with boys.

Teens need boundaries so having a boundary on your time and finances is fine. They understand this. But also saying yes when you can and are willing isn't being a pushover IMHO. If you are at a work meeting- they will understand you can't drive them to the mall. I think it's important to be the parent, not the peer. You will say "no" to them sometimes. They may react to that "no" by being upset. Teens can be moody.

Maybe you are "easier than Mom" but the comparison may not be that you are the easy one but that Mom is the difficult one. I wouldn't worry about the contrast. I think at this point a relationship with children depends on the parent's behavior too. In my own experience- my father did more of the parenting- but he also had the stronger parental bond. This isn't anyone's fault. If BPD mother is not emotionally available or capable- it just happens that way.

[zachira]

For teens, the parents and parental figures like coaches and teachers are very important to them. It may not seem like this so much of the time as teens mostly want to do their own thing, yet quality time versus quantity time with a caring parent and parental figures really do make differences in the kind of impactful decisions teens make both in the short term and long term. Do not underestimate how important being a caring respectful parent is for the well being of your teens even if their other parent is immature and mostly a bad example.

[DreamGirl]

My stepdaughters were on free lunches in school (mom had primary custody) and when the oldest started high school, all she would eat was popcorn. I put a bunch of money on her account so that she could buy other food that wasn't part of the "free" lunch.

When my oldest son was in high school, Michelle Obama implemented the movement to reduce obesity -- therefore the portions/calorie intake were reduced. He was a runner and needed far more than what the school lunches offered. I had to give him more money too. Even on his dad's days.  

I'm all about letting go of the outcome. I didn't need either child to understand who was taking care of who - and who was not. I just wanted them to be taken care of.

If you do what you feel is right, it works out. Both of the aforementioned children are in their late 20's and thriving. That's the outcome I wanted.

[kells76]

My stepdaughters were on free lunches in school (mom had primary custody) and when the oldest started high school, all she would eat was popcorn. I put a bunch of money on her account so that she could buy other food that wasn't part of the "free" lunch.

We must have the same SD; SD16 could eat popcorn all day long She is also a picky eater, so there are only maybe 2 school lunch items she'll eat. To be fair, the school lunches don't sound great. We may need to look into if the school has "food only accounts" just so she has options earmarked for food. There used to be a Subway by the school but it shut down; otherwise we would've done Subway gift cards and called it good.

I'm all about letting go of the outcome. I didn't need either child to understand who was taking care of who - and who was not. I just wanted them to be taken care of.

If you do what you feel is right, it works out. Both of the aforementioned children are in their late 20's and thriving. That's the outcome I wanted.

I think H and I are very much there -- not telling her "we're driving you to school because we don't trust Stepdad" or "we're increasing your allowance because Mom doesn't feed you". We are trying to make it about SD16's priorities: "you let us know you didn't want to be late to school, so we want to support you in that" and "it's been a while since you had an allowance raise, so as long as you take over expenses XYZ, we're happy to do it".

It is freeing to be in a place where I really don't care any more about whose job is whose, it is about -- do the kids have what they need. I'm not offended when they tell me that Mom can give them a ride, or that they called Mom for advice. It does feel good not to get cranked up about that.

I think our biggest hurdle here was -- we do not have the resources to finance everything they need, so how do we thread that needle. Ideally SD16's allowance bump, to include food, would be 2x what it is now after the bump -- but we just can't. No easy or rote answers there, I guess, just solving it situation by situation.

[Notwendy]

It is freeing to be in a place where I really don't care any more about whose job is whose, it is about -- do the kids have what they need. I'm not offended when they tell me that Mom can give them a ride, or that they called Mom for advice. It does feel good not to get cranked up about that.

I think our biggest hurdle here was -- we do not have the resources to finance everything they need, so how do we thread that needle. Ideally SD16's allowance bump, to include food, would be 2x what it is now after the bump -- but we just can't. No easy or rote answers there, I guess, just solving it situation by situation.

I think teens this age are able to understand "can't". In my situation, it was confusing because the "can't" was because of my BPD mother's spending. The solution- address the spending- was much more difficult than "can't". We didn't go without our basic needs thankfully.

Teens can work. For me, from the parenting perspective- I think it's good for teens to have jobs but not work so much that it interferes with their studies if possible- because it's through their studies that they will have the chance for better jobs. I did babysitting in high school, and then summer jobs/campus jobs in college.

They can also be creative with food- making their own snacks, packing lunches, looking at the specials in grocery stores.

I am grateful for the experience of considering budgeting early on as it also helped me to become more independent. What was confusing is that finances were also involved in the family dysfunction.

You don't want to overly worry D16, but I think an honest sit down with her about how much you can afford to help with, and how to creatively come up with some ideas is something to consider. It's good preparation for their college years where they will likely have to consider expenses too.