How much do we cover SD16's dinner this week

[kells76]

Previous thread here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358478.0

H and I (and my parents) took over taking SD16 to school 4 days a week. We all bring food in the car when we pick up SD16 so that she can add more to her lunch if she wants. Sometimes she takes everything and sometimes she doesn't. H and I and my parents are all on board with this setup -- if she wants real food we are happy to provide that (versus us buying her junk food or giving her cash). It's not like we're bringing kale and quinoa, it's middle of the road stuff -- I'd rather she ate healthier but OK, if she'll do packaged granola bars and fruit cups, I can compromise.

SD16 is in the school play and it's tech week, which means rehearsals every day after school during dinner time. The kids get a 30min dinner break in the 4pm range. H's parenting time this week is Wednesday after school thru ~7pm and Friday after school thru ~8p, so we are already planning to go to SD16's school and get dinner with her in the area those evenings. Last night I offered to send extra food for dinner tonight (Monday), and SD16 was kind of "eh" about it. I brought extra food when I picked her up for school this morning but she didn't take it. To be fair, the school doesn't have lockers or a fridge, so it is hard to (a) carry around a bunch of extra food, or (b) hold on to fridge food in a bag for hours.

It's not clear yet what the dinner plans are for tonight, Tuesday, or Thursday. H and I talked with just each other about it, and we're mostly on the same page: it's Mom's time so technically it's Mom's responsibility to make sure SD16 is fed, whatever that looks like -- sending money, sending food, driving food over, or telling SD16 "you need to plan ahead and pack a dinner from home, because that's what we can afford and you're old enough to be responsible for that". If I knew it was one of those options I'd feel fine. We have no issue with Mom covering it however she sees fit, and we are also OK with offering to send dinner food with SD16. H is not really OK with us sending money with SD16 for dinner because at what point is it (a) us overstepping/rescuing, or (b) just getting crazy that we are paying CS and then paying for more food. I'm a little more OK with sending money because I'm mostly past the anger/judgment about what Mom "should" be doing and more at "I don't care whose day it is, let's take care of the kids". I do think there's enough trust between us and SD16 that if we said "here's this cash, please make sure to buy real food with it like protein and a smoothie, not just chips and soda" that she would genuinely try.

SD16 is a picky eater, and SD18 has worried in the past that even though technically there is food at Mom's, it's not food that SD16 actually eats -- worried to the point that she accepted my help in making a grocery list for Mom so that Mom would buy things SD16 ate. So it is possible that there is food at Mom's and she just isn't packing it because she won't actually eat it. Again, if the situation is that Mom has said "you're 16, it's time for you to be responsible for your dinner this week, and that might mean eating stuff you don't love" then I'm fine with telling SD16 "Mom and us are on the same page, we aren't sending dinner money just because you don't love the options we can afford".

I'm just really right on the line with this one. Feeding the kids is a priority and there is history of Mom sometimes not doing that -- both the kids used to have a Wednesday extracurricular, so we'd pick them up from school, do an after school snack, and take them to the activity, and because we'd drop them off back at Mom's at 7pm, we assumed that she would feed them dinner. She did not.

At some point we can't just keep paying extra money for things that aren't our responsibilities, I think? We've already bought a fire extinguisher, smoke alarms, flea treatments, and the occasional bag of groceries for Mom's house. We do want the kids to be safe and fed, but at what point do we decline to step in and let the kids experience yet more of Mom not taking care of them?

Also, H and I both work ~15-20 miles away from SD16's school, so it's not a quick thing to drive over to bring food or take her out, and her dinner break is during our work hours.

IDK... I think H or I will need to just flat out ask SD16 tomorrow how she navigated Monday dinner, and if Mom's house does have food but it's just a hassle or she doesn't love it, or if Mom's house does not have food, or if Mom is doing anything to feed her. I have fears that if I hear "Mom doesn't buy groceries" that we are heading towards a second CPS call.

I think my hangup is that the "easy" solution of giving SD16 dinner money both might be "rescuing" behavior on my part, and is also the slippery slope of -- at some point H and I cannot afford to pay for everything Mom isn't doing. Is it actually a more loving thing to do to not "easy rescue" SD16 and instead to say "here are the options: pack a dinner from Mom's, pack a dinner from Dad's, work it out with Mom on Mom's nights, or do something else you come up with, because buying dinner out 5 nights in a row isn't in our budget" -- and she might be hungry a couple of nights but that isn't because Mom's house doesn't have food and it's not because we didn't offer extra food?

Would love to hear your thoughts on navigating this. Maybe I'm blowing this up into a bigger thing than it really needs to be, and if so, I need to hear it.

[Notwendy]

but at what point do we decline to step in and let the kids experience yet more of Mom not taking care of them?

As usual, I try to add the perspective of the child involved.

I'd be willing to bet that by now SD 16 has experienced plenty of "mom not taking care of them". Most people had no clue what we experienced as children. A lot of it I don't talk about or post because- it's difficult to even think about. I would be willing to bet that even you and your H haven't heard the whole of it.

It's possible to divorce a spouse, and also have another spouse. There are benefits to this- your H is happier, the girls have the opportunity to experience a loving and stable home. But the kids- we can't divorce a mother- and have a different mother. This is the only mother we have. As adults we are responsible for ourselves and have choices. As kids, we are dependent on the adults to take care of us. If BPD mother doesn't and others step in, we are the beneficiaries of that. I knew exactly who was taking care of me.

I would not ever suggest parents compromise themselves too much financially but if possible, I'd err towards providing funds for dinner for the child to whatever extent you are able to.

Not providing this so that their mother will step up- consider the mother hasn't stepped up in 16 years. Doing this isn't going to change anything except the child doesn't get dinner. So there are two possible lessons here- one is to let the child experience her mother in hopes that the mother will possibly step up. The other is that- her Dad is either there for her no matter what or he left her to deal with her mother and added to the neglect.

Yes, you are already doing more than your share and that is probably a source of resentment for your H. My father did more than his share of parenting too- but I surely knew that. I knew exactly who was taking care of me growing up. I didn't need for Dad to not do it to show me that. It also would not have resulted in BPD mother being more responsible. It doesn't change that she has BPD and is probably functioning to her capacity.

It may not be fair to your H but I don't think it ever is fair. However, if seeking fairness with a BPD mother- I think it's more likely that the child will not have dinner than for her mother to step up.

Your H is thinking logically in dollars and that is important. However, there's an emotional aspect to money. You aren't just giving the child money for dinner, you are sending a message with this too. If this were something non essential - I think it's different. But this is food and she may be picky but students don't usually go to expensive places to eat and hopefully something affordable is available.

Just my 2 cents here. Hope it helped.

[ForeverDad]

I wondered whether D16 would decide to "vote with her feet" but I recall (1) her mother historically has treated the girls as virtual extensions of herself and (2) she has a younger stepbrother in that home.  Still, she's old enough that she can herself decide ("vote") to spend more time in her father's home (and eat better).  After all, by the time family court would rule on a parenting schedule change she'd be nearly an adult anyway.  But I suspect she's so emotionally compromised she may not be able to choose even small improvements to the schedule.

[Notwendy]

But I suspect she's so emotionally compromised she may not be able to choose even small improvements to the schedule.

Yes but also may feel responsible for her mother's feelings if she did choose to spend more time at her Dad's house. If her mother is upset about it, she may blame her for that.

Also at 16, she's old enough to be a  helper at home and an emotional caretaker for her BPD mother. This may be a way for her to gain approval from her mother, and this still matters as a teen ( any age, really).

It may take a while for you and your H to see results of your parenting efforts. Not many teens are aware of how to be a parent, how to act as a responsible adult, what a more "normal" relatioship is like,  but you are making a difference for her and setting an example of these for her, even if she isn't able emotionally to make her own choices yet.

[kells76]

Notwendy

I'd be willing to bet that by now SD 16 has experienced plenty of "mom not taking care of them". Most people had no clue what we experienced as children. A lot of it I don't talk about or post because- it's difficult to even think about. I would be willing to bet that even you and your H haven't heard the whole of it.

I suspect you're right and I wish you weren't.

Not providing this so that their mother will step up- consider the mother hasn't stepped up in 16 years. Doing this isn't going to change anything except the child doesn't get dinner. So there are two possible lessons here- one is to let the child experience her mother in hopes that the mother will possibly step up. The other is that- her Dad is either there for her no matter what or he left her to deal with her mother and added to the neglect.

That's a good reminder; the situation isn't just about "will Mom do her job or not", it's also about -- there's an opportunity to give SD16 more experiences of Dad taking care of her, and that's really important, too, for continuing to build the relationship.

Yes, you are already doing more than your share and that is probably a source of resentment for your H. My father did more than his share of parenting too- but I surely knew that. I knew exactly who was taking care of me growing up. I didn't need for Dad to not do it to show me that. It also would not have resulted in BPD mother being more responsible. It doesn't change that she has BPD and is probably functioning to her capacity.

It may not be fair to your H but I don't think it ever is fair. However, if seeking fairness with a BPD mother- I think it's more likely that the child will not have dinner than for her mother to step up.

Your H is thinking logically in dollars and that is important. However, there's an emotional aspect to money. You aren't just giving the child money for dinner, you are sending a message with this too. If this were something non essential - I think it's different. But this is food and she may be picky but students don't usually go to expensive places to eat and hopefully something affordable is available.

I am grateful that since the kids disclosed so much to us earlier this year, H has turned a corner with his mindset (not that he was fully rigid/a stickler for "the rules" before, but he may have been more stuck on the "shoulds"). It has been so much more clear to him that we need to step in wherever needed for the kids, because I think the revelation about Mom's house drove it home -- she can't be counted on. So back in April, when we picked up driving SD16 to school, he was fully on board with it right away, vs staying frustrated that it was Mom's parenting time so if she wanted that parenting time she should be parenting.

I agree that the fact that it's food/meals, vs non-essentials, has been a big factor in my debate. It's not like SD16 wanted tickets to some event, where we could say "Sure, it would be amazing to be able to go to that, and it's so disappointing that none of us can afford it right now".

It helps to talk through this... thank you.

[kells76]

@ForeverDad

I wondered whether D16 would decide to "vote with her feet" but I recall (1) her mother historically has treated the girls as virtual extensions of herself and (2) she has a younger stepbrother in that home.  Still, she's old enough that she can herself decide ("vote") to spend more time in her father's home (and eat better).  After all, by the time family court would rule on a parenting schedule change she'd be nearly an adult anyway.  But I suspect she's so emotionally compromised she may not be able to choose even small improvements to the schedule.

Exactly -- it takes a long time to get out of the enmeshment, and I think at some level (especially with SD18 on another international trip), SD16 knows or believes that someone needs to keep an eye on B12.

It is promising that she is not resistant to spending time with us any more, and even though there are occasional overnights where she is like "can I sleep at Mom's tonight, it's not that I don't want to spend time with you", she doesn't use that as a way to avoid us (she cooperates with being picked up the next day) and it isn't every overnight weekend.

Yeah, she's doing the best she can as a 16 year old to manage living in the emotional dysfunction. She is proud of working to improve her grades, does extracurriculars, spends a lot of time with friends (who seem generally positive), and has built a lot of trust with us in terms of if she wants to stay out late, agreeing on a pickup time and following through. She's really a great 16 year old, all things considered. It does seem like she is able to focus on age appropriate peer relationships (friend groups & 1x1 friend time) instead of "I can't be here, I need to go take care of Mom's house".

Maybe H and I just need to be really patient, knowing it may be way too much for her to make a huge statement like moving in with us. We can be compassionate that she's under a ton of pressure even if she isn't aware of it.

Interestingly, she watched a friend in a school play at a different school the other night, and when I picked her up, she was raving about the theater and the program -- so much so that she said she'd seriously consider transferring. To her credit she said she'd finish out the school year at her current HS and would need to think through pros and cons of a transfer.

It's our district HS (not Mom's district HS)... so if she wants to go there, it would finally be Dad's address as the school purposes address. That would be amazing. We may let SD16 know if she wants to pursue going to that HS, that she'd have in-district priority (over the transfer lottery) if we use Dad's address.

H and I are fine either way... her current HS is a long way away, but we aren't going to push her to our local HS, even though having her go to school 10 minutes away would be a first. We'll see what she decides later next year.

[kells76]

Notwendy

Yes but also may feel responsible for her mother's feelings if she did choose to spend more time at her Dad's house. If her mother is upset about it, she may blame her for that.

Also at 16, she's old enough to be a  helper at home and an emotional caretaker for her BPD mother. This may be a way for her to gain approval from her mother, and this still matters as a teen ( any age, really).

SD16 has heard Mom and Stepdad blame SD18 (for the CPS call) and it made SD18 cry, so it makes sense that SD16 would want to avoid being blamed by her mom. I don't think any kid wants that.

She has wanted Mom's approval very much in the past, I think because for so long, SD18 got so much attention as the "golden child", and SD16 got so little attention or approval. I don't know if that's still as strong, but it's likely there.

It may take a while for you and your H to see results of your parenting efforts. Not many teens are aware of how to be a parent, how to act as a responsible adult, what a more "normal" relatioship is like,  but you are making a difference for her and setting an example of these for her, even if she isn't able emotionally to make her own choices yet.

It makes sense along with what FD was saying -- it's probably just way too much for her right now to really differentiate, so it's on H and I to be patient and compassionate.

...

H and I talked last night, and we think we have a workaround. We haven't increased SD16's allowance in a long time, so we're OK with bumping it up significantly. He plans to chat with her on the drive to school this morning, share what we're willing to do, and ask her to use that to take over responsibility for makeup & clothes & eating out when we're not together, and ask that when she does buy food with it, she do her best to choose nutritious things, not just chips and soda. We trust her enough not to police how she spends the money, and we also trust that if we ask her to try to pick nutritious food, she'll do her best.

It's not that I don't want to know more of what's going on at Mom's in terms of food/groceries, but it still feels icky to ask the kids to tell me "so is Mom buying food?" I'd rather not put them in the position of telling me negative things about Mom's if I don't have to. I guess I feel like it's on H and I as the adults to figure out solving these things without the key variable being the kids dishing about what Mom doesn't do.

They're in the car right now, so fingers crossed it goes well -- I think it will.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I have two disordered ex-spouses with partial custody of children in my extended family.  One parent I'm pretty sure has NPD, and the other I don't know well enough to judge, but what is clear to me is that the parent is high-conflict and takes medications of some sort for mental health.  While these parents might mean well and love their kids, they live in highly chaotic homes, similar to what you describe (pests, messiness, unstructured/unhealthy eating).  They also chafe at all the work that parenting entails.  Any financial assistance they receive goes primarily to satisfy their own wants and needs, and not necessarily those of the children.  By the same token, I think the children love these disordered parents, even if daily life with them can be chaotic.  They enjoy freedoms--unlimited screen time, up all night, no chores, etc.--and so these homes can be considered the "fun" ones.  But healthy meals are lacking, much if not most of the time.

If I were you, I'd err on the side of helping the child, even if it's financially costly.  I know you probably pay child support, but I'd assume the funds are used mainly for ex-spousal support.  If the child were younger, I'd suggest packing "snacks" so that you're sure the child has something to eat.  Because the child is older, maybe you just ask:  "Would you like me to pack you a hearty snack so that you have something you like to eat after school?"  Or, "There's a bag of snacks ready to go in the fridge, go ahead and take it if you think you'll need it."  If she doesn't take you up on the offer, then fine.  But I bet she'll appreciate having that option.  If it's called a "snack" rather than "dinner," maybe the child won't feel like she's betraying mom?  And if it's packed and ready to go, I bet she takes it.  At 16, kids are still growing, and school and activities can be really taxing.  They need good nutrition to keep up with it all.

Just my two cents.

[kells76]

CC43

I think the children love these disordered parents, even if daily life with them can be chaotic.

That's a good reminder -- the kids have their own experience of Mom's house, and there's a lot that feels familiar, comfortable, fun, and loving there. The most important thing isn't that I'm successful in making the kids adopt my view of Mom & Stepdad, it's that I remember that they have a mom and they love her and want love from her, and I don't become one more person forcing them to take sides.

Because the child is older, maybe you just ask:  "Would you like me to pack you a hearty snack so that you have something you like to eat after school?"  Or, "There's a bag of snacks ready to go in the fridge, go ahead and take it if you think you'll need it."  If she doesn't take you up on the offer, then fine.  But I bet she'll appreciate having that option.  If it's called a "snack" rather than "dinner," maybe the child won't feel like she's betraying mom?

Interesting thought about if accepting "dinner" from us could be "betraying" Mom... when BPD is involved, that's a live question. I think SD18 has more of an antenna for that than SD16, and in the past, would've been more reactive -- "Mom is a great mom, I don't need that from you". SD16, though, has less of a sense of what others would think of as "betraying the family", and also has always been more focused on doing whatever it takes (very resourceful) to get her needs met. She has been accepting lunches/snacks from us when we drive her to school, so that's a relief. I think her sense of self-preservation outweighs any sense of "this means Mom isn't taking care of me, and Mom would be so sad", so kudos to SD16.

Definitely grateful that she accepts our support.

[zachira]

These are the important years when your step children are developing their adult selves. The more they can experience how much you and their father care about them, the more likely they will be healthier and happier adults and less like their mother.

[Notwendy]

CC43


Interesting thought about if accepting "dinner" from us could be "betraying" Mom... when BPD is involved, that's a live question. I think SD18 has more of an antenna for that than SD16, and in the past, would've been more reactive -- "Mom is a great mom, I don't need that from you". SD16, though, has less of a sense of what others would think of as "betraying the family", and also has always been more focused on doing whatever it takes (very resourceful) to get her needs met. She has been accepting lunches/snacks from us when we drive her to school, so that's a relief. I think her sense of self-preservation outweighs any sense of "this means Mom isn't taking care of me, and Mom would be so sad", so kudos to SD16.

Definitely grateful that she accepts our support.

We had to act as if my BPD mother was a good mother and all was normal at home. It was a family secret. We were not allowed to say anything negative about her. Children do love their parents, even a disordered one, in general. It was confusing as I was mostly afraid of my mother.

It's been more recent that in our relationship now- with me being an adult and she being elderly and needing assistance, that I see the situation from this perspective. She's very disordered and can't even manage herself. She was in the position of authority when I was a teen ager.

I think teens are capable of understanding a family budget. There is an emotional aspect to how people spend their money no matter what amount they have and it also reflects their value system. FOO experiences also play a part. How money was handled in my FOO was disordered - because the family dynamics were. I think it's important to not over indulge a child, and have boundaries and expectations, but also take note of the emotional message money has. The numbers are objective and important but there's more to consider.

What your D16 is doing in school is a positive thing. School and extra curriculars, and friends were positive experiences for me. Parenting teens is complicated because- we want to foster independence and let them handle their own challenges but also give enough support so that they can be successful. I think in my situation, the money for dinner from Dad would send a message "I am here for you, and I support what you are doing" that would be far greater than the actual amount given.