Seeking guidance on how to live with a spouse with BPD and when to call it quits

[Anon guy 47]

Hello,  I am new to this forum and am confused / looking for advise from others living with a BPD spouse (I have been with my wife for 16 years now.)   I really don't know where to start but here is a short breakdown of our history and where I currently am.

I'll preface this by stating I am a Christian male and believe in what the Bible teaches (why I am still trying to work out this relationship).  I would never even consider cheating or lying to my spouse. 

When we first met I was working a full time job as an engineer.  The relationship was great in the beginning, she was perfect.  She immediately got pregnant (after 3 months of dating) She had a 5 year old daughter from a previous relationship, I was young and just excited to have a hot girlfriend at the time, there were red flags but I only saw the good in her.  After getting pregnant, the demon exposed itself. 

There were good days and bad days, on the bad days she would constantly accuse me of cheating, call my workplace and have the operator page me if I didn't answer.  She got a few of my co-workers numbers and would call them looking for me.  The girl she thought I was cheating with, she would call and cuss her out and accuse her of being with me when I didn't answer the phone.  It was embarrassing but fortunately the company closed its doors and I was laid off so I started a business to work from home to show her that I was not the guy she accused me of. 

I just wanted to have a good relationship and besides prayer I figured counseling was the only other option for us as whatever I was doing wasn't working. We went to couples counseling in the beginning for a few months and it didn't help much, if anything it made her more angry because she felt like I was forcing her to go and she didn't believe she had a problem. 

After a while of working from home my income and severance was depleted.  We moved in with my parents to save money ( they have a big house and wanted us to stay with them)  I wanted to go back to work but also didn't want to go through the embarrassment again not to mention when she got mad at her daughter ( once every couple weeks, she would get physical with her until I was able to get there and stop it) I was worried about the kids so I kept working from home and she got a job.  We discussed her going to work and me staying home when she was in a good mood and she agreed that would be better for the family as I was more patient and stable than her.  When her demon came out, she would always berate me calling me a broke loser and saying things like what kind of man doesn't provide for his family.  I looked at it like I was better off being home to keep the kids safe and raise them in a positive environment.  I became the punching bag so the kids didn't have to deal with it.  I am a big guy and she is small so the punches didn't hurt and I could handle the verbal abuse when it came vs her taking it out on the kids.

After 5 years working from home and barely getting by, I started to become really lethargic and unmotivated ( I guess the loser accusations became reality ) I went to a neurologist because I thought there was something wrong with my brain as I was always a motivated go-getter.  They suggested I had depression which I didn't believe but looking back, they may have been right. 

Her cycle used to be every couple of weeks.  We got along great then out of nowhere like a demon possesses her, 4 days of rage and hate (verbal abuse) then after she snaps out of it she wants to have sex like we are just staring a new relationship, If I don't give it to her then she goes back to being angry as if I don't love her and must be cheating on her ( it is so confusing to me) we also can't talk about what happened during the last outbreak because she will get mad again.  She still accuses me of cheating even though I still work from home and homeschool my 14 year old son who is with me all day. 

These hate cycles now are mostly verbal but about every 4-6 months there is a major break and she becomes physical with me.  I try to walk away and get away from her but its like she is possessed ( I can feel it and see it in her) and she keeps following me and attacking.  This last time I got physical back as I reached a breaking point ( she put a knife in my face saying she is going to kill me ( I don't believe she ever would) and started hitting me with a metal pole so I pushed her to the ground so I could get away, luckily I have a metal building in the back yard where I setup a bed for these occasions )  I am a very patient person and the last thing I want is to get physical with her.  I called her sister and explained the situation but my wife tells her sister that I am the abuser and I beat her up.  I used to have a lot of friends but now I only have one because she gets upset every time I go out so I stopped talking and hanging out with everyone.  I have nobody to talk to and If I do tell someone (i.e. her sister) they don't believe me and assume I am the one causing the problem because I am doing something to make her mad at me.  My son sees it and is the only one that knows the truth but I really don't want to talk about his mom with him and put her in a negative light.

I keep telling myself to continue praying and GOD will work it out but it just seems to be getting worse and I don't want to end up in jail one day because I reacted the wrong way or she got angry and she called the cops just to get me in trouble.   

At this point I am really confused with what I should do, It is hard for me to consider divorce because I do have hope that things will get better but after 15 years It doesn't look like that is going to happen as the physical violence only seems to be getting worse.  I also feel bad because she would have nowhere to go and wouldn't be able to afford a place of her own and I can't leave her here at my parents house If I am not there. 

Every time there is a major break she says she wants a divorce and to fill out the paperwork.  So I ask her to pack her stuff and leave and she says she is not leaving and I have to leave (it's my parents house).  It's so confusing to me because if she wanted to really get a divorce she would just leave and file but I feel like it is just another way for her to torture me emotionally.

I love her to death and just want to have a happy marriage with her so that is why I stay.  The good times are great and I feel like its worth the bad times just to be able to be a part of the good.  I know I sound like a weak pathetic man but my love for her overrides my manliness.  I guess I might need to look at the relationship from a different perspective like is it worth destroying myself with false hope so she can continue burning the relationship down every few weeks.   

I brought up counseling again and she doesn't think she has a problem and that I am the problem and that I should go by myself.  I was thinking about seeing a counselor for myself just to talk to someone and feel sane but since I don't have a job and have limited income that is not an option at this point. 

For others that have been in a similar situation what did you do to help get through the rage cycles and improve the relationship? 

I read about journaling the cycles, Does that help or is it more to have proof of a history of events when the time comes to finally call it quits?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Anon guy 47]

Also looking for advice on the best way to get her to go to see a professional either alone or as a couple?  I am to the point of giving her an ultimatum counseling or divorce but I read that BPD doesn't work well with ultimatums.

[kells76]

Hi Anon guy 47 and

Really glad you found us and are ready to share what's going on in your life. When BPD is involved in a family system, it's sometimes hard to open up to others about how challenging it is -- this is a great place to do that anonymously with people who understand.

Am I tracking with you that there are 2 kids involved -- her daughter, now age 21 (your stepdaughter), and your shared son, age 14? Is that right?

Are both kids living at home, or just S14?

Asking because it can make a difference where the kids are at. My H's kids' mom has many BPD traits, and coparenting was much harder when the kids were younger. Now that they're older (16.5 & 18.5), I still worry, but a bit less -- our 18YO met someone overseas and is now spending a lot of time out of the country, so in a sense I'm grateful for the safety that distance brings her.

...

It does feel like you're in a confusing situation; I feel for you. For so long, home has been a world where violence is OK, she doesn't mean what she says -- or maybe she does, there's a lot of blame, the good times are so good and the bad times are so bad, and it's seemed like nothing you've tried so far has "worked". I think anyone might feel depressed, lethargic, confused, and guilty, given that experience.

There are a lot of moving parts in your situation, so maybe we can focus on just a few steps at a time, so it's not super overwhelming.

The violence in the home is important to talk about. Maybe at some level we're on the same page, that just because you're the guy and bigger doesn't make the hitting, punching, and beating okay. I know that's not what you want to model for S14 (that it's OK to get hit in a relationship if you're the man).

I understand the fear that even though she is targeting you with the DV, what if the cops get called and you get hauled away. It's an important question to ask.

Two thoughts here:

One is that every US state has different laws about if someone has to be arrested when there's a DV call. Some states are "mandatory arrest" states, where no matter what, if there's a DV call, when the cops show up they HAVE to arrest one party (sometimes, due to bias, they arrest the man, regardless of the perpetrator). Other states aren't -- the cops can show up, assess the situation, and leave without arresting anyone. This link from 2018 is a good place to check.

My other thought is: have you ever called a DV hotline before? They are anonymous (you don't have to give your name or other identifying info), and so you can describe your full situation and get feedback from them on safety planning, safer options, pros and cons of staying/leaving, and what to expect legally in your area. I never thought I'd have to call... until I did earlier this year (due to things the kids told us were happening at their mom's house). It's free and confidential, and I felt better after calling. I thought I was overreacting to what the kids said, but the hotline worker said actually yes, there were red flags.

So, if you google "Your City, Your State DV Hotline", you can find a local one and give it a try. Or, if your city doesn't have one, the national phone # is 1-800-799-7233. Calling them doesn't mean you "have to" do anything they suggest -- it's just to get some info about how to be safer, and keep your kids safer, at home.

Do you think you could give that a try, and let us know what they say?

...

I was thinking about seeing a counselor for myself just to talk to someone and feel sane but since I don't have a job and have limited income that is not an option at this point.

It's smart to get extra support when BPD is involved. I see an individual counselor, and my H and I saw a marriage counselor for many years, mostly due to the stress from his kids' mom.

Price can be tricky -- if you live in an area with a university that has a counseling/therapy degree department, sometimes they offer VERY cheap sessions (typically with a student, though the student will be supervised). The university in our area offers $5 appointments.

You can also talk with your pastor/clergy person; often pastors can do some counseling themselves, or may have connections to counselors/therapists who share your belief system, and who might take clients on a sliding fee scale.

...

For others that have been in a similar situation what did you do to help get through the rage cycles and improve the relationship?

I think one of the hardest, but also most freeing, realizations about BPD is that you cannot change the pwBPD. There is nothing you can do to change or improve your W (only she can want to do that).

That doesn't mean there's no hope for the relationship.

You have 100% control over yourself -- even though you were acting with the best intentions, you (like all of us here) may have accidentally made things worse. But you do have the power to stop making things worse, which is a huge, huge step forward. You do have control over the tools and skills you decide to learn, and the approaches you choose to take, and even though that's not directly "telling her what to do", it impacts the dynamic between you two.

While there are no guarantees, you may find that changing things just on your end can impact the relationship dynamic, possibly in a positive direction. Hard to say -- but possible.

...

Couple of quick wrap up thoughts:

I read about journaling the cycles, Does that help or is it more to have proof of a history of events when the time comes to finally call it quits?

At minimum, it gives you information. It won't "make" her stop cycling, but it takes you out of a reactive/defensive place, and gives you the opportunity to make data based decisions -- where instead of reacting only from your emotions, you can respond from a wiser, more informed, more balanced place.

Also looking for advice on the best way to get her to go to see a professional either alone or as a couple?  I am to the point of giving her an ultimatum counseling or divorce but I read that BPD doesn't work well with ultimatums.

Again, one of the most frightening, but also most freeing, things we can learn here is: we cannot make anyone else do anything. There are no magic words, or perfect phrases, or ideal ultimatums, that will make her go to counseling.

People get help for things they think are problems, not things we think are problems (from the excellent book "I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help!"). If there is something she thinks is a problem, she may get help for that... but it's unlikely that pressure will be effective for getting her to seek real help.

You can decide if you want to instead model "emotional leadership" in the family.

Old way (ultimatum): "If you don't agree to go to couples counseling, you're destroying the family!"

New way (emotional leadership): "Babe, I need help with our relationship, so I'm going to counseling. You're more than welcome to come, no pressure either way -- I respect your decision".

The old way tries to use force to make her heal... which is a dead end.

The new way is you bravely stepping forward on a healthier path, and inviting her to join you with an open door.

This is hard stuff... and like you shared, there's a lot going on, and this isn't going to get fixed overnight. These are long-standing patterns so just know that even if you don't see "improvement" right away, it's a journey, not a moment.

No matter what, we'll be here for you;

kells76

[Anon guy 47]

I an trying the excerpt here hopefully it comes out correctly

Am I tracking with you that there are 2 kids involved -- her daughter, now age 21 (your stepdaughter), and your shared son, age 14? Is that right?

Are both kids living at home, or just S14?

Yes Both kids are home as well as my parents who are in their 80's and I am expecting the talk from them that we have to leave once they have had enough.  We will basically be homeless as we won't be able to afford to rent a place on her salary alone.  I have talked to my Wife about this scenario many times and she agrees but is unable to control the anger when it comes.


I understand the fear that even though she is targeting you with the DV, what if the cops get called and you get hauled away. It's an important question to ask.

Two thoughts here:

One is that every US state has different laws about if someone has to be arrested when there's a DV call. Some states are "mandatory arrest" states, where no matter what, if there's a DV call, when the cops show up they HAVE to arrest one party (sometimes, due to bias, they arrest the man, regardless of the perpetrator). Other states aren't -- the cops can show up, assess the situation, and leave without arresting anyone. This link from 2018 is a good place to check.

I called the cops one time when I got beat up and left the house at 2am in my underwear because she ripped the clothes off my back as I was exiting the house.  I said my wife beat me up, can you come calm her down.  They laughed at me first and said your wife beat you up haha  then said if they come to the house both of us would be arrested.  I hung up and never called again. 

My other thought is: have you ever called a DV hotline before? They are anonymous (you don't have to give your name or other identifying info), and so you can describe your full situation and get feedback from them on safety planning, safer options, pros and cons of staying/leaving, and what to expect legally in your area. I never thought I'd have to call... until I did earlier this year (due to things the kids told us were happening at their mom's house). It's free and confidential, and I felt better after calling. I thought I was overreacting to what the kids said, but the hotline worker said actually yes, there were red flags.

no I've never called and never even knew about it.  I have a hard time sharing this with strangers (took me 14 years to post here)  And based on the previous conversation with the cops I don't want to hear anything more on it, I rather her or I not get arrested and avoid all the legalities and fines that come along with a DV charge.  I do see your point though, If I don't call and find out the possibilities and end up getting arrested because I was ill informed then it would be my fault.  I will give them a call and see what they say, just need to find a good time to do it when my son is not around.



Price can be tricky -- if you live in an area with a university that has a counseling/therapy degree department, sometimes they offer VERY cheap sessions (typically with a student, though the student will be supervised). The university in our area offers $5 appointments.

we have good insurance but I haven't found a therapist that accepts it yet but will be on the hunt for one soon.  I have thought about church but that would make me even more vulnerable as I might know some of the pastors.  I am involved with a lot of ministry work and don't want my marriage issues out in the public where I do business if that makes sense.   I will look into the school option you suggested and also call my health insurance to see what they recommend.


You have 100% control over yourself -- even though you were acting with the best intentions, you (like all of us here) may have accidentally made things worse. But you do have the power to stop making things worse, which is a huge, huge step forward. You do have control over the tools and skills you decide to learn, and the approaches you choose to take, and even though that's not directly "telling her what to do", it impacts the dynamic between you two.

While there are no guarantees, you may find that changing things just on your end can impact the relationship dynamic, possibly in a positive direction. Hard to say -- but possible.

This is the part I read about that really confuses and frustrates me.  As you can see from my first post I gave up basically everything (good career, friends, income, etc..) to give her the perfect relationship she wanted.  I go to church, Live a Godly life, Quit everything she "hated" (smoking, drinking socially) I am not sure what else I can do on my end to create a positive impact in the relationship. I am sure I can try to be more gentler and understanding of her feelings but honestly after 14 years of surrendering I don't think I can do it much longer without getting really depressed to where I can feel it and acknowledge it and turn to a negative outlook on the future, currently I still don't accept that I am depressed as I still have a positive outlook on the future.

On the bright side Things have improved a lot if I compare now vs the first few years.  Going to church really helped but it didn't fix it and to be honest I don't think anything ever will fix it to where we have a perfect relationship which is fine, I just need these extreme bouts of anger to stop, I can deal with the verbal abuse and dirty looks but I can't deal with the physical abuse.  I am not scared of her but I am scared of what I can do if I one day snap because I have had enough.  I think from anyone's point of view a divorce would be better than me in jail on an assault charge.

Couple of quick wrap up thoughts:

People get help for things they think are problems, not things we think are problems (from the excellent book "I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help!"). If there is something she thinks is a problem, she may get help for that... but it's unlikely that pressure will be effective for getting her to seek real help.

I agree and this is my dilemma,  What does it take for a person to realize they have a problem and decide to get help? 

You can decide if you want to instead model "emotional leadership" in the family.

I have been the emotional backbone of the family up to this point and I really can't give anymore than I am currently giving I am at the point that I feel the ultimatum is the only solution.  "go with me to counseling or get out" 

I will try the new way you listed below but, I am at a point where this behavior needs to stop as it is destroying me. I have a 99.9% opinion that she won't go to counseling so in the end it may have been a waste of time but I'll try.

Old way (ultimatum): "If you don't agree to go to couples counseling, you're destroying the family!"

New way (emotional leadership): "Babe, I need help with our relationship, so I'm going to counseling. You're more than welcome to come, no pressure either way -- I respect your decision".

Thank you for replying and allowing me to vent a bit here, it is really difficult when you are a man and have to hold this pain in for so long out of fear of looking like a weak person. 

[kells76]

Hey, good to hear back from you -- it's a lot to go through alone, so we're glad you're chatting here.

It is hard when there's still sex bias in many areas of the USA and the world, as if men cannot be victims of DV too. It's shattering not to be believed, and to be laughed at... I'm really sorry that happened to you. It's not fair, didn't help you, and didn't help your family.

I want to make clear, too, if I'm talking about approaches to improve the relationship, or tools and skills you can learn, it's just because we're posting on the "Bettering a Relationship" board, where the focus is strongly on us and working on ourselves -- it's not to single you out specifically or suggest "you should try harder", it's just the approach that this board takes. We do also have a "Conflicted about Continuing" board if a member doesn't feel ready to try a lot more tools/skills, is contemplating staying vs going, may need to divorce/is in a divorce, etc. That board does have a heavy practical/legal focus, too. Please do check that one out as well, and see if the tone/vibe is a better fit for your situation.

No judgment here, no right/wrong choices for where you post, just want you to know you may get different advice and a different feel on the two different boards  

What does it take for a person to realize they have a problem and decide to get help?

I wish I knew... often, it's a "hitting rock bottom" moment, but that's not something we can generate for others. I had to call CPS about stuff my H's kids said was happening with their stepdad, but even a CPS investigation hasn't seemed to help the kids' mom take care of them better. I think she has a ton of fear, blamed other people instead of herself, but has severe impairment in seeing her contribution to why CPS was called. BPD is really tragic in how it destroys relationships between the pwBPD and family.

Thank you for replying and allowing me to vent a bit here, it is really difficult when you are a man and have to hold this pain in for so long out of fear of looking like a weak person.

We are all just average human beings here. We have really weak areas and really strong areas, and that's the same for all members here, not just men, not just women. We are united in being scared and overwhelmed sometimes, yet finding moments of strength, and seeing ourselves grow stronger over time.

It took some strength for you to reach out and be real about your story here. Being vulnerable like that can be frightening, yet it also speaks to -- there is some part of you that is ready for change and ready to shine the light on what's happening in your home, no matter what. I think your kids will appreciate that.

Keep sharing whatever you feel OK with sharing -- we'll be listening.

And keep us posted on how the DV calls go. I made mine in the car in the parking lot at work during lunch. There's no set time limit you have to do -- you can hang up any time, so it doesn't have to be like an hour long call -- though you can talk as long as you want. If S14 has a chunk of homework, or sports practice, or something, maybe you can sit in the car or garage for the call.

You're building a support network... that's really wise.

[Anon guy 47]

It is hard when there's still sex bias in many areas of the USA and the world, as if men cannot be victims of DV too. It's shattering not to be believed, and to be laughed at... I'm really sorry that happened to you. It's not fair, didn't help you, and didn't help your family.

yeah agree and thinking about it in hindsight if they did come and arrested her it would have been devistating to the family so I guess it was kind of a blessing that they laughed at me and I hung up. 

I want to make clear, too, if I'm talking about approaches to improve the relationship, or tools and skills you can learn, it's just because we're posting on the "Bettering a Relationship" board, where the focus is strongly on us and working on ourselves -- it's not to single you out specifically or suggest "you should try harder", it's just the approach that this board takes. We do also have a "Conflicted about Continuing" board if a member doesn't feel ready to try a lot more tools/skills, is contemplating staying vs going, may need to divorce/is in a divorce, etc. That board does have a heavy practical/legal focus, too. Please do check that one out as well, and see if the tone/vibe is a better fit for your situation.

No judgment here, no right/wrong choices for where you post, just want you to know you may get different advice and a different feel on the two different boards  

Thank you, no judgement taken on my end I guess I am just frustrated and tired.  I am a firm believer in actions need to have consequences it's how I raised my kids and even though I know she has a mental disorder it is very hard for me to remain calm and empathetic when she acts like this.  It literally takes up all my energy and I am drained out at mid day.   I do appreciate the help and do want to try to better the relationship before I throw in the towel.

I wish I knew... often, it's a "hitting rock bottom" moment, but that's not something we can generate for others. I had to call CPS about stuff my H's kids said was happening with their stepdad, but even a CPS investigation hasn't seemed to help the kids' mom take care of them better. I think she has a ton of fear, blamed other people instead of herself, but has severe impairment in seeing her contribution to why CPS was called. BPD is really tragic in how it destroys relationships between the pwBPD and family.

Unfortunately I don't want it to ever get to rock bottom for her (i.e. her getting arrested or put in an institution)  I rather get divorced than to put her and the kids through that.  I'll just continue in prayer and trying to make things better on my end.

You're building a support network... that's really wise.

Thank you Again

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Anon guy 47,

Welcome to the board. I can identify with so much that you are going through. I have been with my dBPDw for 13 years. She has a 25-year-old son (my SS) and we have a 3-and-a-half-year-old son together. For years her BPD abuse of me escalated until it became physical about six or seven years ago. The physical abuse also escalated to the point where she was assaulting me with heavy objects and targeting my head. She once broke a large, framed picture of us (glass and all) over my head while I was sleeping. The broken glass could have easily punctured my temple and killed me. It wasn't until our son was about 2 years old that I finally found the courage to put boundaries into place to protect myself and my son. I did not want him to grow up witnessing me being abused and have that be his template for a "normal" relationship.

The book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad was life-changing for me and I can't recommend it highly enough. It taught me how to place true boundaries in my life. Boundaries aren't requests, demands, or ultimatums. They are unilateral, and they are for your protection and the protection of your children and elderly parents. For example, one of my boundaries is if my wife gets physical, I call the police. I told her that going forward that is what I will do 100% of the time that she gets physical. She tested me on it a little over a year ago and I called the police. She has not dared to get physical with me since then.

A little backstory to this. I, like you, didn't want my wife arrested unless absolutely necessary. I have a friend on the police force who I spoke to about her mental condition before placing my boundary and asked for advice on what to do the next time she got physical. He told me to call the non-emergency line (not 911) and tell the operator that my wife was having a mental health episode and that I felt physically threatened. Also, I was to call as soon as she started throwing things and trying to hit me. If she actually hit me, they would have had to arrest her. On this occasion, she was throwing things at me and chasing me around the house. I was able to avoid her and she stopped her aggression as soon as I called the police.

The police came, they talked to her to make sure that she was no longer a threat to herself or anyone else, and then left. It scared the hell out of her, but that was kind of the point. It was my declaration that I would no longer tolerate physical violence in our house and that the police would be called 100% of the time that it happened going forward. That is a true boundary. I have total control over it. It is not asking her to change her behavior but is instead giving her a natural negative consequence for violence that she would suffer if she were violent with anyone else (her boss, a stranger, a family friend, etc.)

Our relationship has gotten somewhat better since I started placing boundaries. She still won't admit to needing help, and I can't force her to get it. She is still suffering from BPD, but my S3 and I are no longer suffering from her BPD. When things get bad, we leave. Her problems are now her problems and are no longer mine. She is having to learn how to self-soothe and regulate herself when she gets upset. With the DV and children involved in the mix, I would talk to someone at your local police department before you get into an emergency situation. Tell them the full story. Tell them about the mental condition, and then ask them what they recommend you do. Tell them that you are worried for your safety, the safety of your son, and the safety of your elderly parents. Tell them that you would like to avoid having your wife go to jail if at all possible. However, have you considered that going to jail for a night or ending up on a psychological hold at a hospital might be the natural negative consequences that result from her intolerable and illegal behavior? Might this not be the rock bottom she needs to hit to see she needs help? Are you enabling her by covering up the abuse? Just some things to think about. Please read the book I suggested and let me know if you have any questions I can help with. Being a male survivor of domestic abuse can feel incredibly isolating and lonely. Feel free to contact me via DM as well.

Praying for your family,

HurtAndTired

[Anon guy 47]

The book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad was life-changing for me and I can't recommend it highly enough. It taught me how to place true boundaries in my life. Boundaries aren't requests, demands, or ultimatums. They are unilateral, and they are for your protection and the protection of your children and elderly parents. For example, one of my boundaries is if my wife gets physical, I call the police. I told her that going forward that is what I will do 100% of the time that she gets physical. She tested me on it a little over a year ago and I called the police. She has not dared to get physical with me since then.

Thank you for replying and sorry to hear about your situation but also I am glad you found a solution to the physical violence.  I will buy the book today and read it.  I will also call the DV hotline or police to find out my options going forward.  I do know my state (California) has very strict DV Laws and there doesn't even have to be proof or physical wounds for the cops to arrest someone (I had a friend go to prison for 2 years on a girls word alone with no proof) but let's see what the hotline advises.   

Thank you for your prayers, I will be praying for you and your family as well.

[LittleRedBarn]

Hi Anon guy 47

First of all, congratulations on reaching out and admitting that you need help. That is the hardest step of all, and you have come to the right place here. There are a lot of people here who have seen their marriages follow a very similar trajectory to yours.

I think you need to take the DV situation extremely seriously. I really wish that I had known about this site, and the Fjelstad book, two years ago, before my dBPD husband's mental health breakdown, which resulted in him spending two months in a psychiatric hospital. That would be hard enough, but the incident that led to his hospitalization also led to a felony charge against me and a Protective Order, also against me, which is still in place today. Like you, I spent years and years and years being patient, loving and kind, but one day I finally snapped.

Even if you do manage to stay calm in the face of all the provocation, your wife clearly will not, and will almost certainly get worse.
This last time I got physical back as I reached a breaking point ( she put a knife in my face saying she is going to kill me ( I don't believe she ever would)
My dBPDh's therapist explained to me that when my husband is experiencing true rage, he 'disassociates'. This is common in people with BPD. It means that he is literally 'out of his mind'. He doesn't know what he is saying and he doesn't know what he is doing. I am sure you are right that your wife would never kill you when she is in her right mind. But if she is experiencing a true borderline rage, who knows what she is capable of. You owe it to HER as well as yourself, as the emotionally stronger person in the relationship, to protect her from things going this far.

Until you are in a safe place, with the right boundaries in place, there is no way that you can start to work on your relationship with your wife.

I also strongly recommend the Margalis Fjelstad book. It really opened my eyes as to how, with the best of intentions and coming from a very loving place, I have inadvertently made my husband's mental health condition worse, not better.

Good luck with everything, and keep posting here. There are lots of people here who understand what you are going through.

[olafinski]

Hi,
married with undiagnosed BPD wife for 17 years now. We live with her son from first marriage, now 25, and our son, now 14, so there are some parallels and perhaps my perspective might be interesting and soothing.
I am lucky that I discovered this community some 10 years ago. Having read all the recommended books, I learned how to make our family situation much better.
What I would recommend, or to better say, what worked for me was:
1) Realise that you are not a husband and a father anymore, and learn to live with that. You are a care-giver for a sick person that needs your help. Your help is needed so that she creates minimum destruction and damage to herself and the people around her. Focus 100% on that goal. When you put it like that, it's just a task to perform. Do it rationally. God will give you strength, trust me. You can do it.

2) Forget about any idea you still have of "how I thought my life will be when I grow up". That delusion is the worst part of being an adult, not just in this situation, but in general. Life is, well, what life is. Learn to grab the benefits of what is in front of you. Stop living in your head, feeling sorry for yourself and "why did this happen to me" kind of internal monologue. Man, you are a grown adult, and manhood is all about not bitchin', being a hard rock of the family, and taking care of everyone around him. You can do it. Just accept your new role.

3) NO ONE WILL HELP YOU. Don't expect of anyone to help you. Off course therapy might help, or being on sites like this. But don't count too much on friends and relatives. No one can understand what's going on in your house and in your family. Trust me.

4) IT GETS BETTER. My wife is now 50, and her episodes are now much calmer and more rare, perhaps 2-3 per year. That's the good part. The bad part is that the need to be her care-taker totally beat the romantic part from my life. She was my romantic partner, and now she isn't anymore. I love her to death and would do anything for her, but as a woman, that "should be that something to a man"... no. She is not. She has too much problems with herself. So in a strange way, she is somehow more like a daughter or a close relative. I just can not be romantic with her like I used to be because she never really gave me a sense of security that I longed for. She was packing my bags from day 2, and never stopped.

5) Is she worth it? My two cents - there is a reason why the two of you ended together. The things that you are complaining about - that you lost your friends, your career or whatever - I totally understand you. But to me there isn't anything remotely valuable as a relationship with someone. So perhaps you sucess, your career, your story, when you die, will not be the one that you had planned for yourself, but one much much greater - that you sacrificed for someone you love, and that you managed to give that poor soul a family and a life as normal as she could possibly have.

6) DO NOT FIGHT WITH HER OR OPPOSE WHAT SHE SAYS, even if it is something that makes you incredibly angry. It's just words. You know that joke "What is the only two words you need to know for a good marriage? Yes dear"? Well that's our life man.

You will be OK. Read the books and enter your new role.

[ForeverDad]

After getting pregnant, the demon exposed itself.

You can read here about BPD FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Having a child can drive a paradigm shift, suddenly you are in a more obligated relationship.  (In my case, having a child too altered everything.  I concluded that in her perceptions, I was less a husband and more a father.  Since she had huge issues with her stepfather, me becoming a father triggered her to reject me.)

I am to the point of giving her an ultimatum counseling or divorce but I read that BPD doesn't work well with ultimatums.

Think of boundaries rather than ultimatums, thought admittedly those may be a choice of words.  Be aware, though, that people with BPD traits (pwBPD) strongly resist boundaries.  So instead boundaries are for you, more or less it becomes how you respond to poor behaviors.  Sometimes I've given as example a very simplistic scenario... "If you do or don't do ___ then in response I will do or not do ___."

See our topics on Boundaries on our Tools & Skills Workshops board:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

Another caution... Merely requiring a disordered spouse to attend counseling/therapy sessions will not in itself improve the spouse's perceptions and behaviors, at least not on an extended time scale.  Why?  The person would have to want to improve himself/herself and diligently apply the therapy.

All those years when you kept trying, and it didn't work.  BPD is a disorder most impacting to close relationships.  And due to your years of a close relationship there is too much past emotional baggage for her to truly listen to you.  Maybe, just maybe, a therapist - without any emotional connection - might find a measure of success.  How much, if any, is unknown beforehand.

[olafinski]

Forever Dad, thanks so much for this! I was thinking in my case what changed in my relationship with my wife after I became a father. Now it makes much more sense! She is always accusing me, when having an episode, of plotting from the very start to take our son away from her, or as she says "you just couldn't stand the idea that he would be more attached to me"... While in fact I never imagined being as much involved as I have been... In my family, my mother held all 4 courners of our home, and my dad was always on trips or just grumpy. He was really dedicated and firmly focused on us, but simply wasn't there. So my idea was something like that, that I will provide, and my wife would take care of our son. But SHE was the one that pulled me totally into being an involved father, from the day one, she taught me everything, because she had a paranoia that if something might happen to her, I would be clueless (when I now think about it, it was a really huge red flag for mental health...).
So normally I became really close with our son, and later, when he was bigger, I was the one playing with him all the time and we developed a really close relationship.
But now with your remark I see whats going on. In HER childhood, father was really deeply involved, but in a different way. He was a real alpha husband, a doctor, and a very emotional father, so he made all the decisions, he bathed his daughters, put them to sleep etc, because her mother always admitted openly that she doesn't like kids. So basically she had all of time a subconscious example of a family where Father is in the center and mother is just "someone around", and projected that to our family. She taught me everything so that I can "be her father", involved in up-bringing to the fullest, cause she could not imagine her son to not have one.
As their marriage had a lot of drama, with him cheating and her always being a total pain in the ass, in a way she projected this totally to our marriage.
Thx!

[Anon guy 47]

Thanks for the replies and encouragement.  It will be 2 weeks tomorrow since her last explosion,  We haven't talked other than text messages and calls of her asking me to get the divorce papers ready and threatening to take my 14 year old son who I have been home with and raised since birth while she went to work graveyard and slept all day.  She knows that is a pain point for me so she uses it to torture me.

 I know she doesn't want a divorce, it's just her way of knocking me down to the point of me dropping to my knees and begging for forgiveness, since it was "all my fault" in her eyes. 

At this point I feel like calling her bluff as I am tired of the games.  Maybe I'll call her sister or just get the papers filled out and and ask her to go with me to the courthouse to file them just to see how far she will go with it?  I don't know.

When I ask her where she plans to go she says she will stay here and I'll remain in my shop which doesn't make any sense, why would you want a divorce but refuse to leave the house?

Her pride will not allow her to take responsibility and apologize or even acknowledge any part of it being her anger or crazy thoughts that caused the last explosion so we are in a stalemate.  Luckily I have plenty of work to keep my mind off of it and a bed in my shop so I can ride it out as long as it takes.  I actually prefer the solitude.

The worst part for me knowing that she has a mental disorder is that I feel obligated to stay and help her vs getting divorced and have her destroy someone else's life or her own. 

[ForeverDad]

As I look back on my years married (over a dozen) and my years separated or divorced (1.5 dozen years) I've learned that there are certain priorities in life.  In serious matters such as with major but dysfunctional family matters you need to remember you are the reasonably normal adult.

Top priority is to take care of You.  As they say at the start of every airline flight, "In an emergency, put on your oxygen mask first before helping others.  You can't help anyone if you've become incapacitated."

Second priority is to care both short term and long term for your Children and their welfare.  As minors, they're not developed enough to make adult choices or decisions.  It is best to be as involved as much as possible in their care and the decision making since your spouse's judgment and behavior cannot always be trusted.

If there is any room left, then consider your spouse or ex-spouse.  You can't live your disordered spouse's life nor risk putting your spouse ahead of you or your children.  Sorry.

[HurtAndTired]

In my last reply to your post, I mentioned how boundaries are so very important to reducing the chaos that pwBPD can create in your home. I told you how I placed a boundary that I will call the police 100% of the time that there is physical violence in the home. I followed through with the boundary and called the police last September. Although she was not arrested due to my carefully planning how to minimize the risk of that happening before I knew I would inevitably have to call, it scared her to death. Now she takes that boundary very seriously as she knows what will happen to her if she raises her hand to me again. I likewise was dealing with divorce threats and placed a boundary that stopped those as well. I do not recommend this unless you are ready/willing to face the possibility that it could escalate her.

Like you, I was dealing with frequent divorce threats. It was getting to the point of having me emotionally exhausted. The divorce threats were almost always accompanied by threats of taking our home and our child. I finally reached a point where it was no longer tolerable. Like you, I was pretty sure that she was bluffing so I called her bluff. I was prepared that she could have followed through on the threat and proceeded with a divorce, but I had come to the conclusion that I would rather deal with the concrete challenges of a divorce than to live with the abstract threat of one always hanging over my head.

The last time that she threatened me with divorce before I placed my boundary (around March of this year) I told her in a very calm voice "I do not want a divorce, but if that is what you want you will have to file the papers and have me served. At that point, I will get a lawyer and you and I will only communicate through our lawyers. I want you to know that, unlike your ex-husband, our son is the most important thing in the world for me and I will fight you with everything I have for primary custody. I will not roll over and go away to let you raise him the way that you did with my SS. This is the last time we will speak of this. If you ever bring up divorce with me again, I will leave the room. If you want a divorce, our lawyers will do all of the talking. I will not speak of this with you ever again." There were several more divorce threats after that, but I would just get up and walk away without responding. They eventually stopped.

My wife was using the divorce threats to emotionally manipulate me and push my buttons and was very successful in doing so. Behaviors do not exist in a vacuum. They exist because they serve a purpose, namely getting someone what they want. If you want a behavior to stop, the person needs to stop being rewarded with what they want from the behavior. It is B.F. Skinner's Behaviorism 101. Think about it this way. If a rat pushes a lever and receives a food pellet, the lever-pushing behavior is reinforced. The rat will continue to push the lever because it gives the rat what it wants. However, if the scientist controlling the lever stops providing the food pellet, the behavior will eventually stop because it is no longer being reinforced. How is your wife being rewarded with the divorce threat behavior? Is it that she is successfully drawing you into an argument? Is it to emotionally manipulate? Inflict an emotional wound? To feel like she has the upper hand in the relationship and a degree of control over you? For my wife, it was a little of all of the above. By no longer providing her with those things, I stopped reinforcing the behavior and it stopped.

One last word of caution, and you will find this early on in the Stop Caretaking book, is that once you place a boundary you must enforce it 100% of the time. When you stop reinforcing a behavior, the behavior will not likely go away (become extinct) immediately. The case with my wife and the police was an exception because of how scared she was of the police showing up at our house. Most boundaries will be tested again and again until the behavior that led to the boundary becomes extinct. Some behaviors will never become fully extinct. However, you must be 100% consistent with your boundaries once you place them or you will inadvertently give inconsistent reinforcement. Inconsistent reinforcement is the type of unpredictable reward that keeps people pulling the lever on slot machines at the casino. They don't know when they will hear the bells go off and have the machine spit money at them, but if they keep pulling the lever, eventually the bells will ring and money will come out.

Think of the example I gave above with the rat. If the scientist stops giving a food pellet when the rat pushes the lever, the behavior will go away fairly rapidly, although it may get worse for a while (called an extinction burst - more on that in a little later). However, if the scientist gives the rat a food pellet on the 100th push of the lever the rat has learned that if they push the lever long enough, eventually they will get the reward. This type of reinforcement is incredibly strong (which is why gambling addiction is such a challenge). Although the divorce threats in my house have stopped for over 6 months, I have had to follow through on my boundary of getting up and walking out of the room several times since placing the boundary when she tried to bring up the subject again over the first month or two.

This is the dreaded extinction burst. It is when a behavior actually gets worse after the reinforcement has been removed, but before the behavior eventually becomes extinct. With our rat, the lever-pushing no longer produces the desired food pellet. The rat will not immediately give up the behavior, instead it will furiously push on the lever repeatedly. Why is this not working anymore it asks itself (in a very frustrated rat way). Eventually, it will grow tired of pushing the lever and will give up, but only if the scientist makes sure never to give a food pellet with a lever push. If the scientist slips up just once and gives the food pellet, the rat may be pushing that lever forever due to the intermittent reinforcement.

There is also a chance that the rat will come back once in a while to push the lever (just to check that it no longer works) even after the behavior has become extinct. This is called spontaneous recovery. Think of how once in a while you check the fridge a second (or even third time) even though you know that there is nothing in there that you want to eat. We all do it. This is why you have to be prepared to follow through with the consequences of violating your boundaries 100% of the time and you need to always be prepared to do so, even if a behavior has gone away for months or years.

I know that I am throwing a lot of psychology at you, but it has really served me well. I can't take credit for it though. Almost all of it came from the book I recommended. Reading the book is the easy part. Following through on the recommendations is much harder. Be strong. Be consistent. And never, ever lay down a boundary unless you are prepared to follow through 100% of the time. Extinction bursts WILL happen. They are extremely unpleasant. You can ride them out and you will find a great deal more peace on the other side of the storm. You've got this!

HurtAndTird

[Anon guy 47]

Thank you for the psychology it makes sense.

I spoke to her today as she needed to go to the store for groceries.  She texted me about 20 times over the holidays asking for the divorce papers then after talking to her this morning she texted me again reminding me to fill out the papers, so I printed them out and handed them to her.  On the way to the store I drove to the courthouse and told her we were going to file since that is what she wanted.  She became angry and started crying blaming me for everything.  When we got there she refused to go inside and told me to go, so I did.  I asked for the self help dept to make sure everything was filled out properly before filing and they informed me that they are only there on Fridays.  I came back to the car and told her we need to come back Friday to get help with the paperwork.  She said she wasn't going to go.

After the store I told her that whatever we had been trying to do up to this point hasn't been working and that our marriage is failing, it is physically and emotionally killing me and I can't live like this any longer.  Of course she replied that it is all my fault and I am the one with the problem so I said I am willing to go to marriage counseling to get it figured out.  She said she wouldn't go so I told her that she has until Friday to decide if she wants to try to get help and save our marriage or if she wants a divorce.  I am standing by my word this time. 

Since we broke the ice earlier she has been riding me all day about every little thing possible (aka pushing the button) I am mentally drained at this point.  She is one of those types that keeps coming at me head on until I react, and the more I do, the more she comes at me (I don't understand it but i guess it is her way of getting attention when the demon is present) I really hate conflict and it reminds me of my Jr High school days.

If I do end up filing Friday I will call a family meeting with the kids and her to let everyone know.   

[LittleRedBarn]

My question is, why are you the one that has to file for the divorce? She's the one that wants it, has been asking for (or threatening) it constantly, no? Provided you live in a Westernized society, she is at liberty to file for divorce any time she wants, with or without your agreement.  Why not let her do it?

[Anon guy 47]

She won't do it,  when I pulled up to the courthouse yesterday she refused to get out of the car even though she had been demanding the papers for weeks since the last blow up. 

It feels like it is her way of tormenting me by asking for it because she knows how it affects me and thinks I will never do it but I have no idea what is going on in her head or what her demon is whispering to her when she is out of her right mind. 

It's either a form of torture as it is usually accompanied with "I hate you" , "I don't love you"  etc...  or she does it to get some sort of reaction / attention from me, I don't know, but I am tired of it and am calling her bluff this time.   

When her demon/bpd takes over she says and does things that she doesn't mean and when I ask her about it once she is back to normal she doesn't seem to remember any of it or she doesn't want to acknowledge it and says I am the one who said/did those things.  Like the last episode where she assaulted me to the point of me pushing her just to get away, I was the abuser, she takes no responsibility for what lead up to me pushing her, it was all my fault. 

It's a very confusing and strange thing to comprehend how a person with BPD acts as there is no logic involved, its strictly emotional.

[kells76]

Have you heard of post-stroke aphasia? Briefly, people with those types of aphasia have real thoughts or real feelings they want to communicate, but instead of being able to use words that match what they want to say, there are various types of aphasia that lead to inaccurate expression -- using the wrong word, leaving out words, using made-up words, etc. It's frustrating for the sufferer, and frustrating for the hearer. The person thinks/feels "I'm cold, please turn up the heat" but says "The window". You go to the window but the person gets angry: "That's not what I said!" You get angry: "I didn't have the stroke, I know exactly what you said, and you said window!"

Many, many pwBPD have an analogous issue with accurate emotional expression. While not brought on organically, it's just as real and just as impairing. You lived that yesterday, for sure.

Inaccurate emotional expression is a feature of BPD -- not something for us to be surprised by. If we think BPD is in play somehow, we need to find a way to accept that (for now -- for this moment -- until the family can build new skills) inaccurate emotional expression will be happening.

While it's not your job to make your wife express herself accurately or to tiptoe around "does she really mean it", it is our responsibility (as persons without BPD in the family system) to educate ourselves about the reality of the disorder, so that we can make more effective (relationship building) choices moving forward.

Ineffective choices: upping the ante, bluff-calling, not managing our own emotions, escalating, "proving" things, "pointing out" what "really" happened.

Effective choices: self-education, self-regulation, building skills, getting support, using the "STOP skill" (pause, take a breath, don't say or do anything, ponder a mindful way forward), taking a break.

It's a very confusing and strange thing to comprehend how a person with BPD acts as there is no logic involved, its strictly emotional.

It is a confusing disorder, you're right. Inaccurate emotional expression is a huge obstacle to connection and understanding. And it hurts you. We're wounded (understandably so) by the words our pwBPD say, regardless of if they "meant" it or not. Words can inflict a lot of pain.

She is expressing real feelings with inaccurate (and hurtful, ineffective) words. The intensity and the feelings are real and valid -- the content of the words is often off target.

There are ways to work with it on your end, without having to "make" her do anything. Understanding more about "relationship mindfulness" and the transactional model of communication can help (the handouts aren't very detailed but are a good starting point for discussion and questions here).

I don't think either of you want to go through a day like yesterday again.

Someone has to stop the bleeding -- are you ready?

A lot will depend on your relationship goals. Is this still a relationship you value?

[ForeverDad]

Since we broke the ice earlier she has been riding me all day about every little thing possible (aka pushing the button) I am mentally drained at this point.  She is one of those types that keeps coming at me head on until I react, and the more I do, the more she comes at me (I don't understand it but i guess it is her way of getting attention when the demon is present) I really hate conflict and it reminds me of my Jr High school days.

This is more sabotaging behavior.  She knows this crushes you yet she still does it.  She can't help herself.  (Actually, technically she could behave better but she won't.)

If I do end up filing Friday I will call a family meeting with the kids and her to let everyone know.

Expect her to blame you then too.  After all, she has abdicated on the divorce action, her pattern will be to claim it was your choice, not hers, laying the blame on you.  Anticipating that, ponder whether it would be better all around for you to speak with the kids yourself for a heads-up, without her interference... and then have a more formal session with everyone?  I suspect the children would be more open with you (and free to show their relief?) than if she were there.

It is probably time for you to Let Go of your natural (and otherwise excellent) quality of fairness.  While of course avoiding being nasty, likely the time to be "overly fair" is long past.  After all, you don't expect she would treat you fairly, do you?  Another reason to curb your sense of fairness is that you'd be less likely to Gift her opportunity and information to misuse and sabotage you.

[Anon guy 47]

I don't think either of you want to go through a day like yesterday again.

Someone has to stop the bleeding -- are you ready?

A lot will depend on your relationship goals. Is this still a relationship you value?

Definitely don't want this to become the norm every-time she asks for papers.   I am ready to stop the bleeding of course but I also feel like I am bled out and can't take further beatings.  If I could have a wish it would be for her to be a normal rational person where we live in harmony and lift each other up.  I do believe in miracles but also don't want to get stuck in the trap forever. 

I see your point about being prideful and sticking to my guns but after 16 years and nothing working up to this point I feel like it is my last resort.  At this point if she isn't willing to at least be open to the idea of outside help than I don't see a point in continuing.  The past few days have really drained me out physically and mentally, I had real fears of having a stress related heart attack or stroke and I think a divorced dad is better than a dead or disabled dad. 

[Anon guy 47]

Expect her to blame you then too.  After all, she has abdicated on the divorce action, her pattern will be to claim it was your choice, not hers, laying the blame on you.  Anticipating that, ponder whether it would be better all around for you to speak with the kids yourself for a heads-up, without her interference... and then have a more formal session with everyone?  I suspect the children would be more open with you (and free to show their relief?) than if she were there.

I fully expect her to blame me but I did let her know that I am willing to get help and if she is not then it will be her choice.

I thought about talking to the kids but if she changes her mind at the last minute then it will be unnecessary worry and stress on them.  I am planning to call her sister the day before and let her know as my wife always says she will pick her sister and mom over me any day so hoping her sister can talk some sense into her as she has her own family and doesn't want my wife moving in with them.  She is also aware of our fights and how mean her sister can be when she gets mad.

It is just a total mess and if divorce is the outcome it will be all my fault in the eyes of others because she doesn't show that side of herself to anyone but me.  I am ready for that if it happens.

[Anon guy 47]

I spoke with my wife this morning, She was in a good mood.  I asked her if she thought about what I said and she said she would like to work on the marriage and will go to counseling with me. 

I found a marriage counselor close by our house that also specializes in BPD.  Is there a list of questions I should ask when I call to schedule an appointment?   Just want to make sure the therapy doesn't turn into a money grab with no results or action from the therapist.  I don't really want to go sit and talk for years, I want some sort of plan or guidance from them to help improve things if that makes sense.

[ForeverDad]

I hope the marriage counseling works.  Don't let it turn into a Blamefest, that's not helpful nor productive.  Stick to the facts.  And beware that a person with acting-out Borderline traits (pwBPD) is likely to express emotions and perceptions as "facts".  One would hope the counselor would set firm limits to Blaming and Blame Shifting.

The assumption is that marriage counseling has the goal to repair the marriage.  That takes two.  If several sessions don't show progress then that may be an indicator of the long term success.

Another scene described here is that you may be asked to do more than your spouse.  Is this an indicator that the MC has to move slower with your spouse - understandable - or that MC take the easier path and decides you will have to give in more due to spouse's refusal to do more?

[Anon guy 47]

I don't believe that counseling in and of itself will repair the marriage or her BPD,  I am more looking for the counselor to bring awareness to her BPD.  I think if she is aware that she has a problem and believes it because a professional told her so, it will open the door for us to work together on the issues and eventually help her realize that her thoughts ( me cheating, being a bad person, etc...) are not real and that together we can find a way to control the outbursts.   

We saw a counselor early on in the relationship and it was to me at least, a waste of time where we just went there to talk about the issues and the counselor never really gave us any advice on how to make things better or what the root cause was.  I don't feel we need someone to listen to our problems. I think we need someone to acknowledge there is a problem and advise us on how to make it better.

I'll call tomorrow and talk to the MC to see if this is how they operate or if they prefer a long term approach. 

[LittleRedBarn]

I suggest asking them what types of therapies they are trained in. Ideally, you are looking for DBT, CBT or mentalization as these all help with BPD. If the practice says that it treats BPD they should be able to offer these specific therapies. What you don't want is ordinary 'talk' type therapy as there is no evidence that it helps with BPD symptoms at all.

I would also strongly recommend that let go of the idea that a diagnosis is going to help. Your wife may not get one and, even if she does, it could take many sessions before the provider is comfortable with giving one. If you set out looking for this, you could well end up disappointed.

Instead, I'd suggest coming up with some outcomes that do not rely on a diagnosis, for example:

• no more physical abuse, ever
• creating a safe home for you, your elderly parents and your kids
• a meaningful reduction in the frequency, intensity and duration of your wife's rage

These three would be a good start. They do not rely on a diagnosis, and itemizing them to the counselor would give him/her a good idea of the seriousness of the problem.