Is targeted disengagement really the answer?

[Depression = 72% of members]

If I can find a way to disengage from my uBPD sibling and their family and still maintain at least surface level relationships with my other siblings (still trying to decide if that's possible for me given their continued validation/enabling of them, but hoping I can figure it out), is it likely that my uBPD sibling will move onto someone else as a scapegoat and finally leave me alone? Like if I simply do not reach out, do not react to their provocations, do not offer support and accept that I am likely going to always be viewed as a terrible, cold, awful person by them and their family. If I can accomplish that, and endure having relationships with other siblings that do not include that sibling or discussions of that sibling - is that a good strategy for extracting myself from the mess? Or is it not likley because I'm not totally cutting everyone out? What has your experience been?

[Intotheforest]

If I can find a way to disengage from my uBPD sibling and their family and still maintain at least surface level relationships with my other siblings (still trying to decide if that's possible for me given their continued validation/enabling of them, but hoping I can figure it out), is it likely that my uBPD sibling will move onto someone else as a scapegoat and finally leave me alone? Like if I simply do not reach out, do not react to their provocations, do not offer support and accept that I am likely going to always be viewed as a terrible, cold, awful person by them and their family. If I can accomplish that, and endure having relationships with other siblings that do not include that sibling or discussions of that sibling - is that a good strategy for extracting myself from the mess? Or is it not likley because I'm not totally cutting everyone out? What has your experience been?

[zachira]

I have targeted disengagement with most of my large extended family. When my parents were alive, I listened to my parents say terrible things about their scapegoated siblings which was fully supported by the other siblings and the rest of the family even though the scapegoated siblings were the ones always doing all kinds of extraordinary kind things for family members. My experience is the scapegoats are trashed no matter what they do to be liked. I have never seen a scapegoat be replaced, just as new ones are chosen in each generation. There are at least 6 generations of scapegoats on one side of the family and I am one of them.

I often ask myself similar questions to what you are asking yourself. My regrets are not distancing myself sooner and being way too hopeful that someone would see how awful and unfair it is to be a chosen lifetime scapegoat. I have tried to help some of the other scapegoats and it seems to make no difference. Those that scapegoat others need the scapegoats to not have to look at how badly they feel about themselves and to not risk how they would be ostracized for supporting the scapegoats while calling out the abusers on their cruel behaviors. I regularly get told to make up with my sister with NPD and I have refused. More and more family members are distancing themselves from me, as I refuse to continue to be abused by them or to support the abuse of other scapegoats.

You can set the boundaries with your siblings and see how it goes. It is heartbreaking to distance yourself from all your siblings. All you can do is see how your siblings respond when you set the boundaries you need to have peace of mind.

[Notwendy]

In my experience, that would not have worked. The designated person (in my case, my BPD mother) would take victim perspective and rally other family members to her "side" against me.  BPD mother sees people as either "on her side" or "not her side" and people in her circle then choose.

Trying to have boundaries with her resulted in her extended family and my father coming to "her side". She and my father were a pair- it would be impossible to have a relationship with only him. BPD mother was angry at me at the time my father passed and actually told her extended family and some family friends to not speak to me- and some of them complied.

You may be your sister's targeted scapegoat and that may not change- whether you decrease your contact with her or not.

I think it's a good idea to have the boundary of not discussing your sister with other family members- unless, they too have some clarity on her behaviors and are asking questions- then be honest with them. But I'd avoid triangulating with them and venting. This can backfire. Family members may want to keep the peace and may even be her enablers.

Rather than prompt a big family reaction, perhaps a slow decrease in attention to your sister's issues over time will let the drama decrease. I didn't go NC with my mother. I decreased the emotional and personal content in our conversations. It's a sort of LC. But before I did this, I did react to her emotionally and had boundaries- not expecting the extent of her reaction which led to her family and friends not speaking to me and my father being angry at me. I wasn't aware of BPD dynamics at the time. If you want to keep contact with your other family members, I think the slow decrease in drama between you and your sister may possibly be more effective.

[Intotheforest]

Thank you both. This is helpful. Though I've been living this my whole life, I've only recently "seen the light" and it all makes so much sense. My uBPD is high functioning and yes, the rest of my family members just overlook all the things that make no sense. I had gone low contact not intentionally, just naturally over the last several years because their treatment of me and my family has been abhorrent. Even their kids have been awful to mine. So, I just avoided them and started avoiding family gatherings, preferring to see my other family members independent of them. It's worked okay, until just recently when my uBPD sibling had yet another major crisis involving one of their children. During this crisis I've watched my uBPD make the entire thing about them - and watched them masterfully create this persona of a "moral/heroic victim". As I watched this happen, I realized that this is something they have done their whole lives at the expense of so many people around them. This situation is no different. Is this a thing for people with BPD? Because they are undiagnosed, when new observations come to light for me, I often find myself seeking confirmation that this fits the pattern for an uBPD.

What they say happened in their family really is tragic and if we had a "normal" sibling relationship, I would have dropped everything to support them however I could. However, over the last couple of years through my own therapy and concerted efforts to educate myself, I've come to see the exceedingly emotionally abusive nature of this relationship and, though it's been difficult, once you see how someone has repeatedly lied about their experiences, lied about you, tried to convince you that you are a terrible person, gaslighted you, and moved to create divisions between you and the rest of your family, you simply cannot unsee it. And, once you recognize the pattern and other family members' role in enabling it, you just can't ignore it. With this most recent ongoing family crisis, all of these behaviors and far worse have been on display. My uBPD sibling asked me to get centrally involved in their crisis and I refused - making me look like the jerk who won't support someone in such a horrible situation. I know it's the right thing for me to do, and it feels awful. However, what's worse is how others may be interpreting it. Right now, just trying to let go of that.

So, as I work through all this I am trying to figure out if/how I can preserve these other relationships. For me and for my own children who also value them. What has worked for me for years is exactly what you describe - limit conversations about my uBPD. Avoid family gatherings, and seek out individual contact with each other family member. However, this crisis has made this much more difficult. And, after several years of turmoil, this major crisis should have been resolved, and my hope was they would move from front and center in family dynamics, at least for awhile, my uBPD sibling was angered over someone's response to it in their circle, and so has begun another related major fight that is likely to take years. And so it continues. So, managing relationships in the family without talking about my uBPD sibling will continue to be difficult. I guess the question is whether I can do it.

[Notwendy]

I'm sorry about one of your sister's children. I can only imagine that my father's siblings looked at the situation and felt helpless about it. There's only so much you can do. On my mother's side, her family has told me they didn't know. They thought she was eccentric. This is believable since she's the oldest and perhaps growing up, a younger sibling didn't fully understand.

Thank goodness for my father's family who has been supportive of us kids, but even so, their ability to intervene was limited.

My mother's family has since apologized to me. They didn't know the extent of the situation. They feel badly that they didn't do more for us kids when we were younger, and are trying to be of emotional support to us now as we deal with my mother in her elder years. I told them they did all they knew to do. My parents would not have allowed much intervention.

There's probably not much you can do for your sister's children while she remains in control- but one day, perhaps you can have your own connection with them. If other family members are enmeshed or take sides, it may be impossible. For years, my mother's family were aligned with her. It was impossible to have anything more than a cordial and distant relationship with them. Same with my father, if I went NC with my mother it would have had to be with him too. I didn't want to do that.

Just stay calm and cordial and do what you can, but every relationship takes two people and we can only do our part.

[zachira]

The dramas usually continue with the disordered people and the abuses often get worse until the targeted victim, the scapegoat, has to make a decision to limit the contact further with certain people and/or to go no contact. In my case, I endured many years of terrible abuse by my sister with NPD And being treated horribly by extended family members and family friends for no reason. I think I might have committed suicide or gone into a deep dark depression if I did not end the contact with my sister which has resulted in having several family members go no contact with me and others being flying monkeys for my sister frequently trying to find out more about what I am doing ( I don't give out personal information to them.) and nagging me to make up with my sister. It does not seem to matter what I say; the flying monkeys clearly defer to the narrative because my family is a cult of narcissistic abuse with certain children worshipped as golden children no matter what they do and other children chosen as scapegoats from birth, never given credit for how extremely generous they have been to family members at different times. One of my aunts who was a golden child killed her best friend by driving carelessly and the family always felt sorry for her. This aunt and the rest of the family abused her sister, a life time family scapegoat, for marrying the wrong man until the day she died despite all the kind generous things she did for many family members.

It is hard to predict what will happen in your case. Notwendy is very lucky that some of the members of her mother's family were eventually better able to understand what was really going on. What is key here is to set the boundaries you need for your well being and be prepared to go lower contact as needed. At this point, I am so low contact with my family members and have endured so much abuse that I have very little real interest in interacting with most of them. I believe this is due to the work I have done in becoming a healthier person in my own right and no longer interested in being part of such a toxic family cult. Time will tell what you need to do. What boundaries with your family do you think would be the most protective for you right now?

[Intotheforest]

My mother's family has since apologized to me. They didn't know the extent of the situation. They feel badly that they didn't do more for us kids when we were younger, and are trying to be of emotional support to us now as we deal with my mother in her elder years. I told them they did all they knew to do. My parents would not have allowed much intervention.

That is amazing. I'm so happy for you that you finally were able to get that kind of validation from family. It gives me some hope, though I really can't see that happening here - I imagine we will just have to navigate the few whole family gatherings that are left and any expected family invitations (weddings, etc) and just won't have a relationship. My sincere hope is that I can limit that to my uBPD sibling. Particularly if I can manage to completely disengage them - not reach out and console my sibling or offer any sign of support (which is never enough anyway) despite the increasingly dramatic chaos they find themselves in (some real, some I suspect not) - and stop engaging when my sibling reaches out to me - which is the plan, if I can do it and stave off the feelings of guilt that I can't be the "ideal" sibling/aunt - I've never been able to do that because of the relationship and unpredictability of my sibling's responses to me - and that, btw, has been my fault too.

I've not often been put in a situation with my family of origin where there have been "sides" chosen - I've often not cared enough to fight. Often they've been low stakes enough that I didn't push - I was always "better off" than my sibling was by typical kid/teen/young adult standards and sort of saw it as my job to protect /lift my sibling up. The family expected that too. And I played the role well. It was go along to get along and somehow I managed to excel despite the dynamic. Then I moved away and began to really see how unhealthy the whole dynamic was. As I've increasingly built a life away from my sibling and family of origin, there has been an increase in push from them to force a "either you're with me or you're against me" dynamic. That, I think is what I'm struggling with now. And my family of origin isn't yet rejecting me for not getting involved, and perhaps they won't. They've just accepted that we are not close and have a
"complicated" relationship.  Maybe I'm luckier than I thought?

Again-so happy to hear that your family situation took a turn for the better. Thanks for all your helpful advice.

[Intotheforest]

I think I might have committed suicide or gone into a deep dark depression if I did not end the contact with my sister which has resulted in having several family members go no contact with me and others being flying monkeys for my sister frequently trying to find out more about what I am doing ( I don't give out personal information to them.)

I am so sorry to hear that you were pushed into such a dark place from all of this. I am just now realizing how maddening it all is and how painful the active harm from these "flying monkeys" (a term I just learned) is to those of us living with or who grew up with people who likely (or do) have this disorder. I'm glad you've gotten to a healthier place and thank you for sharing your experiences with those of us who are much earlier in our own journey of recovery.

[zachira]

Sometimes the flying monkeys can cause more pain and damage than the main perpetrator. If your sibling's terrible behaviors were not enabled by other family members, things would surely be different in that you would likely have healthier relationships with several members of the rest of the family.

Thank you for your empathy and caring, most of all understanding my painful situation with my family.

[Notwendy]

That is amazing. I'm so happy for you that you finally were able to get that kind of validation from family. It gives me some hope, though I really can't see that happening here -

Me either. I didn't expect it. I was actually suprised. I am middle age and this just happened in the past couple of years. My mother's relatives are elderly. It took that long for them to see the situation more clearly I guess. I am grateful- it's helpful at any age to have relatives who care. I hope this can happen for you too.

[Greg]

I have never heard this term "targeted disengagement"  It sounds like a troubling phrase for "healthy boundaries."  I don't like the innuendo in it for victim-blaming (uBPDs are not the "target" of anything, we are the targets of their abuse).

Setting healthy boundaries and creating space from abusive people is essential for mental well-being.  I gave up long ago trying to "fix" cluster-B personality types.  It only caused me trauma and PTSD, financial problems, and more.

At the end of the day, I had to be willing to let go of people that were brought into her manipulative web ("flying monkeys" as zachira shared).  I can only show by example, getting away from the crazy fog, that I am living a healthy, respectful existence.  If someone is being manipulated and cannot see that, or if they cannot respect that "I don't wish to talk about x, y, or z" - i.e. not respecting simple personal boundaries, then what am I really missing out on?  Is that person really a friend?  Are they really healthy for me to be around?

My therapist taught me that boundaries create the path to friendship.  Without them, there is no safety and respect.  I don't keep people in my life that disresepct me, unless there is a dire survival need (i.e. nursing home care, parole officer, or something like that).  My life has improved 100% since setting and respecting boundaries for myself and others.

[Pilpel]

I'm dealing with a NPD sister in law.  She's been in the family for just over 20 years.  I cut contact with her about 5 years ago, then by her prodding re-negotiated limited contact.  After the limited contact negotiation, she had a manic episode, where she made some pretty awful accusations against me and other members of my family, and ended up in the mental hospital.  But now she is on new meds and  has been trying to regain contact again. I live next to my parents, and she and my brother have holidays with my parents.  For thanksgiving this year, I agreed to joining them for dessert.  It felt very weird.  My parents are elderly, and my mom is bedridden and has dementia.  So it's just a very weird situation.  I can't not be there to make sure my mom her her meds and stool softeners at bedtime.  My mom doesn't like to go to the bathroom when anyone else is at home because she needs so much help.  So the whole thing was so awkward.  I can't not be there.  But then had to explain to them that ailing mom thinks she needs to poop, but doesn't want to until they leave.  And SIL seemed very focuses on charming and keeping us engaged with interacting with her.  Also very weird, my brother and SIL got a puppy a couple years ago, and they always bring it when they visit my parents.  And my parents have never liked having animals in the house.  This is my 3rd time visiting with them in 5 years, and when the dog started jumping on my parents' couch I had to remind my brother about my parent's preferences.  And my SIL says "Oh they've never said anything."  And I know they've never said anything because my SIL has bulldozed over everyone's boundaries for 20 years, and my parents are too old to be setting boundaries and dealing with conflict.  I talked to my dad about it later.  He's 96.  Yeah, he doesn't like their dog running around his house.  But he doesn't say anything because he thinks his son should know better. 

[Intotheforest]

I have never heard this term "targeted disengagement"  It sounds like a troubling phrase for "healthy boundaries."  I don't like the innuendo in it for victim-blaming (uBPDs are not the "target" of anything, we are the targets of their abuse).

It's a term I use as I think about how to approach my family system. I mean it not in terms of targeting anyone negatively, more like in terms of disengaging from the uBPD person who is abusive to me and trying to maintain connection to the "flying monkeys". I just dont know if its possible. Everything I'm reading on here suggests disconnecting from the entire system is the best approach, but I am loathe to do it. I do value my relationships with the other members of my family, and so do my adult kids. And though my uBPD sibling has progressed in recent years to creating situations where family members have to "choose sides" on situations that I have no real way of knowing what is true and what is false (likely a mixture of the two), the most recent being a public battle that has been presented as you are either "with them" or "against them", so far, my other family members have not outwardly questioned me about not choosing to stand with my uBPD. Though it is clear some disagree with my stance. In fact, one of my other siblings seemed to understand and agreed with my hesitation and concerns privately, and even expressed them to my uBPD, though immediately caved as soon as they felt the intense wrath of my uBPD and has now very much changed their position.  They are now the hero/model sibling and I am...not.

I just would very much like to find a way to hold onto my other relationships and I just dont know if it will be possible.

[Intotheforest]

At the end of the day, I had to be willing to let go of people that were brought into her manipulative web ("flying monkeys" as zachira shared).  I can only show by example, getting away from the crazy fog, that I am living a healthy, respectful existence.  If someone is being manipulated and cannot see that, or if they cannot respect that "I don't wish to talk about x, y, or z" - i.e. not respecting simple personal boundaries, then what am I really missing out on?  Is that person really a friend?  Are they really healthy for me to be around?

I think this part is where I am struggling right now - if everyone else is willing to be manipulated and or unable to see that is what is happening, how do I know I'm not the one who is wrong? I mean, stepping back objectively and looking at the history, there is no doubt, but why am I the only one that sees it? It's just so baffling to me. It causes me to regularly question myself, and I do know that's part of it. So I just need to accept that it is, but it's a real mind trip. And, of course, the fact that I am clearly hurting through this and the rest of the family is unconcerned about that. It sucks.

[zachira]

Seeing people for who they are and establishing the boundaries you need to protect yourself does not always necessarily mean going no contact with your whole family. In my case, I am no contact with my sister with NPD because I am her target of hatred, (how she really feels about herself deep down inside), and will always be. I have different levels of contact with the flying monkeys. I have accepted that most of my family members are heavily entrenched in the system, though not all of them have agreed to make me a target to be hated and abused like other scapegoats in the family, that mostly they feel very uncomfortable that I am no contact with my sister. I let them deal with how uncomfortable this is for them and refuse to participate in any ways they reach out to get me to end no contact with my sister.

Members who post on this site who have gone no contact with a person or several people usually do it after trying different levels of no contact that did not work. No contact can be temporary, needing a time out from the dysfunctional relationship(s), or it can be permanent if things get so bad that they will only most likely continue to get worse. Some members have broken no contact after several years. It can help to remember that low contact can be at different levels and no contact can be temporary or permanent. Be patient in trying out what levels of contact work for you, knowing you can make changes in the levels of contact with different people as needed to protect your well being.

[Intotheforest]

Seeing people for who they are and establishing the boundaries you need to protect yourself does not always necessarily mean going no contact with your whole family. In my case, I am no contact with my sister with NPD because I am her target of hatred, (how she really feels about herself deep down inside), and will always be. I have different levels of contact with the flying monkeys. I have accepted that most of my family members are heavily entrenched in the system, though not all of them have agreed to make me a target to be hated and abused like other scapegoats in the family, that mostly they feel very uncomfortable that I am no contact with my sister. I let them deal with how uncomfortable this is for them and refuse to participate in any ways they reach out to get me to end no contact with my sister.

Members who post on this site who have gone no contact with a person or several people usually do it after trying different levels of no contact that did not work. No contact can be temporary, needing a time out from the dysfunctional relationship(s), or it can be permanent if things get so bad that they will only most likely continue to get worse. Some members have broken no contact after several years. It can help to remember that low contact can be at different levels and no contact can be temporary or permanent. Be patient in trying out what levels of contact work for you, knowing you can make changes in the levels of contact with different people as needed to protect your well being.

This really helps. I guess it’s a matter of trying things out, letting go of what these family relationships “should” look like, and not relying on them to meet my needs for love and acceptance. Then managing different boundaries appropriate to each person in my family over time - being flexible as it makes sense - and maintaining a clear understanding that these people, though I love them, are not and cannot be relied on to be my primary source of love and acceptance.

[Notwendy]

I think this part is where I am struggling right now - if everyone else is willing to be manipulated and or unable to see that is what is happening, how do I know I'm not the one who is wrong? I mean, stepping back objectively and looking at the history, there is no doubt, but why am I the only one that sees it? It's just so baffling to me. It causes me to regularly question myself, and I do know that's part of it. So I just need to accept that it is, but it's a real mind trip. And, of course, the fact that I am clearly hurting through this and the rest of the family is unconcerned about that. It sucks.

Somehow my BPD mother has this power of enlisting others into her world view. I think one of the reasons for the difficulties in our relationship is that - I didn't buy into it. I wanted to- I wished somehow we could get along better, but to me, her behavior was disordered and yet, other people in the family seemed to be looking the other way. It seemed like the emperor's new clothes. Friends and relatives were telling me how wonderful she is and it looked different to me.

One reason is that there is a side of her that is charming and they only saw that side of her.

A confusing thing happened when my father passed away. BPD mother was angry at me and told her family and friends to not speak to me. They went along with it. I had just lost my father.  It didn't make sense- non family members, even total strangers- were more supportive- sending condolences- than these people.

I reached out to them, and one of them who told me that because he agreed with my mother he couldn't speak to me.

I couldn't process this. It just didn't make sense. I decided that if someone is in my mother's circle, I will maintain an emotional distance from them. It's not about who is right or wrong, but whose world view to agree to.

Even as a teen, I wondered about my mother having some kind of mental illness. I didn't know what at the time. I understand the confusion and self doubt. I think it helps us to get counseling to help with these issues and also gain validation of our own perspective.

[Intotheforest]

Somehow my BPD mother has this power of enlisting others into her world view. I think one of the reasons for the difficulties in our relationship is that - I didn't buy into it. I wanted to- I wished somehow we could get along better, but to me, her behavior was disordered and yet, other people in the family seemed to be looking the other way. It seemed like the emperor's new clothes. Friends and relatives were telling me how wonderful she is and it looked different to me. 

I feel this. All of this. It brings me to tears to see I am not alone in this experience, even as I am so sorry that you have experienced it too. I've been in therapy dealing with a lot of this and I'm hearing these things from my therapist - being the cycle breaker is lonely, the truth teller is the one that is targeted, no one wants to go against the dysfunctional system because they see what it is costing you...all of that is validating. And its still so lonely and hard to deal with - even as an adult. One sibling recently started to recognize this for what it was and we talked about it, and I couldn't believe how incredibly validating it felt. It's almost as if I never knew how much I was missing all these years until they called me and said they see what I see. But then there was a big blow up, my uBPD sibling freaked out on them in ways that were startling to them. And now I'm watching my other sibling move back into their dysfunctional role enabling my uBPD and further alienating me from my FOO. And I am having such a hard time dealing with that relationship with my other sibling now. They see how much it hurts me, they see what this is, and they are choosing to participate in pushing me out of the family system and supporting my uBPD sibling within the system.

Two things I cannot seem to rectify - one, I think I need to completely separate my individual relationships with my siblings from the system itself. I know that sounds a little ridiculous - they're all in the system and I have mostly removed myself from it. I don't think any of those relationships will be deep, and I don't think my relationship with my sibling who did see this and chose to ignore it will ever be the same - but I am trying to figure out how to not think of my relationships with my other siblings in relation to the rest of the system, if that makes sense. Just not sure yet how to do it.

And two, I've only just realized all of this about my family in the last year. I have been able to create a beautiful life despite all this, and I truly do not want to focus on the past of the dysfunction of these relationships, but I find myself amazed every time I have another realization about my uBPD sibling, the dysfunction in my family system, and hurt when I see it happening in the present time, even as I am far less dependent on those relationships than I have ever been. I think a bit part of this is that I have always excused my uBPD sibling's behavior. Either they just don't know any better, or can't do any better, and I can. So I saw it as my role to "rise above it". So I did, and no one in my family held them accountable for their hurtful behavior through the years. Hell they never even recognized or acknowledged it - it was normal. And I was always okay, so there was no reason to tend to me and my needs. Over the years, my family members have never shown up for me and my family in moments of need. I've always been left to my own devices, but that was the norm. Ultimately, I remember when I started to realize all of this, my therapist asked what I want from them and my response was "I want to matter". God, that was telling to me. But, I've realized it and I can't change them, so I guess I just need to figure out how to accept it. Because I'm tired of focusing on it.

And I'm so sorry for the absence of support you had from your family when experiencing such a difficult loss. No one should ever be put in that position.

[Notwendy]

And I'm so sorry for the absence of support you had from your family when experiencing such a difficult loss. No one should ever be put in that position.

Thanks, it felt surreal. I can relate to your feelings- I wondered how much of how I viewed my family was a result of my seeing it though an optimistic filter- my own illusion of family as I wanted it to be.

After my father passed away, this collective wall of silence from these people connected to my mother was unexpected. Hurtful -yes but also baffling. I think you may be going through something similar- these are your family but they behave in a system, and how to separate them from this system? Is it even possible?

I think there's a grief process to this. It would make sense that you are grieving a loss of what you hoped for with your sister. Then, we have to adjust to the family members we have- what kind of boundaries we feel we need to have in these relationships.

[Intotheforest]

Thanks, it felt surreal. I can relate to your feelings- I wondered how much of how I viewed my family was a result of my seeing it though an optimistic filter- my own illusion of family as I wanted it to be.

Yes.I feel that too. I had this image of what a family should be and I always forced my experiences within my FOO into that mold. And there were elements of that, to be sure. But I disregarded all the things that were dysfunctional - looked past it and found my way despite it, not realizing how much pain and hurt had been building up through the years. Now I feel silly for dwelling on it - why should I be so angry now? My life has turned out well despite the dysfunction and the only piece that is off is my toxic uBPD and dysfunctional FOO. Why should I need everything to be great?

I think there's a grief process to this. It would make sense that you are grieving a loss of what you hoped for with your sister. Then, we have to adjust to the family members we have- what kind of boundaries we feel we need to have in these relationships.

Yes, I agree with this as well. I have been grieving this whole time for what I thought should have been and for what I hoped might be possible in my FOO.

[zachira]

It often requires a lot of deeply painful soul searching to disengage from dysfunctional relationships. People who are in these relationships who desire meaningful long term changes often go back and forth until they make the breaks that work best for them either no contact or low contact when no contact is not a solution. I cannot put it into words how painful and disturbing it is when people indicate some level of understanding about what is going on yet they go back to supporting the disordered people and the system enabling it.

You are doing the deep dive into trying to find what is most healthy for you in regards to future relationships with your siblings. When you are the one who seems to be doing all the work in looking at how the dysfunctional family system impacts you and others, the constant betrayals of other family members are very lonely and disappointing. When I first went no contact with my sister with NPD, some family members let me know how angry they were with me while others were superficially uncharacteristically nice. Both tactics were to get me to go back to accepting my role as one of the family scapegoats and to relieve the family members from having to do the years of hard work I was doing in therapy and on my own. Do you see any of your siblings undertaking what you are doing right now to create a healthier more balanced fair family system in which abuse of others is simply not tolerated?

[Notwendy]

I cannot put it into words how painful and disturbing it is when people indicate some level of understanding about what is going on yet they go back to supporting the disordered people and the system enabling it.

Yes, this was more difficult to comprehend than the behavior of the disordered person. If someone has a mental disorder- we consider this an explanation for their behavior. But when people we perceive as not having a disorder- logical and high functioning people- it's confusing and also hurtful.

I did some reading to try to comprehend my family dynamics. In addition to individuals, the family functions as a unit. If one person is disordered, the other family members take on roles to compensate and the family maintains balance. If one member changes their behavior, the other family members feel out of balance. They will try to get the changed family member back into their role. If the changed family member doesn't do that- then it's possible they will reject that person and reconfigure into a new balance family unit.

Why would logical people do this? When we grow up in a dysfunctional family, this is the "normal" we know. It feels familiar. They may experience this as their normal. The patterns can also repeat in subsequent generations due to this familiarity.

I've been curious about my BPD mother's family dynamics. There is not much to know. There wasn't awareness of BPD in her era and also people didn't discuss mental illness. There had to have been some behaviors, but I don't think they understood them. She has a sibling who is aware of her issues but also I see him wavering between awareness/denial, anger and protectiveness of her. I think this is automatic for him.

I think the idea of "surface level" relationships may be possible. I didn't go NC with my mother or her family members. The disconnect with me was on their part. I maintained a form of LC with my mother. There were occasions where I'd encounter people in her circle- family events, or when I visited. I kept the encounters cordial and superficial. I can feel more relaxed around some of her family members now but I keep in mind that- anything I say to someone in her circle might be shared with her, and there's a tendency to be protective of her.

[Intotheforest]

I did some reading to try to comprehend my family dynamics. In addition to individuals, the family functions as a unit. If one person is disordered, the other family members take on roles to compensate and the family maintains balance. If one member changes their behavior, the other family members feel out of balance. They will try to get the changed family member back into their role. If the changed family member doesn't do that- then it's possible they will reject that person and reconfigure into a new balance family unit.

Yes, this is what I think I am experiencing now. My family is struggling with my rejection of the dynamic and my refusal to step back into my "normal" role. Now my challenge is going to be to continue to buck that system, despite the pressure. I've been focused on how everyone else in my family system is "wrong" and I'm "right" about my uBPD's behavior and the dysfunction in the system, and how it feels like a mind trip to try to stand alone in it, apart from the rest of them. My therapist helpfully pointed out that its not "right" or "wrong", it's who's grown beyond the dysfunction and who is still reliant on it. That was a powerful re-frame for me. [/quote]

I think the idea of "surface level" relationships may be possible. I didn't go NC with my mother or her family members. The disconnect with me was on their part. I maintained a form of LC with my mother. There were occasions where I'd encounter people in her circle- family events, or when I visited. I kept the encounters cordial and superficial. I can feel more relaxed around some of her family members now but I keep in mind that- anything I say to someone in her circle might be shared with her, and there's a tendency to be protective of her. 

I think this is also helpful - I've been thinking about creating NC/LC boundaries for my family as a system - and what I need to do is figure out how to consistently stay outside the system and create boundaries with each individual family member. I need to figure out what that looks like - individual relationships with clear boundaries that are independent from the actual dysfunctional family system.

[Intotheforest]

Do you see any of your siblings undertaking what you are doing right now to create a healthier more balanced fair family system in which abuse of others is simply not tolerated?

No. None of them have done any work. I don’t believe they even see a reason to do the work. Somehow the system works for them. I’m the family scapegoat, so I had the most to lose by staying in it. I’m not sure they will ever be motivated to do the work. So I may always be standing on my own with regard to my FOO. I just need to accept that for what it is, I guess.

[zachira]

We scapegoats often ask ourselves why we are the ones in therapy doing all the work when we are not the abusers. Not surprising yet very sad that your siblings have no interest in changing the family dynamics as long as they are not the scapegoats, at least for now. Sometimes a person who was not a scapegoat can become one later on. This could happen in your family as you gradually abdicate your role as family scapegoat by changing the ways you interact with family members.

Most of my family members disparage therapy and have no interest in looking at their part in enabling the dysfunctional family dynamics and abuses of the scapegoats. My sister with BPD went to a therapy for a while because she saw how I was benefitting from therapy, and she is always in competition with me. My sister bragged to me how she convinced the therapist she was low income to get the lowest fee even though my sister is wealthy. My sister was continually telling me how she discussed me in therapy, (made me the  problem so to speak, so she did not have to look at her part in the dysfunctional family dynamics). Of course because my sister has NPD, therapy was of little benefit to her.

For therapy to work, the person in therapy has to be motivated to look at their part and be willing to make changes, not something a person will do usually unless they are in crisis, desperately unhappy with the way things are. It is a crisis to discover we are a scapegoat, and so normal to want to do what we have to do for things to change for the better, no matter how painful it is to be so vulnerable. There may be a crisis in your family at some point which will require one of your siblings to take a look at the dysfunctional family dynamics. It may not seem like it now, but you are giving your family members a chance to change for the better. There is no hope for the family to change unless we set healthier boundaries with our family members which you are doing.