Debts and finances…

[thankful person]

My dbpdw and I have always been opposites where money is concerned, even before we met. I grew up well off, my parents worked very hard and I went to private school, was rebellious and determined to not become what was expected of me: I did not get good qualifications and have worked very hard scrimping and saving to get by all my adult life. My wife grew up poor, was never given anything she wanted at the shops etc. Her parents did not work. My wife gained no qualifications and has dropped out of many courses for mental health reasons and barely held down a job ever and for very few hours per week.

Since we have been together (10 years), my wife has spent so much money on credit cards and loans and it’s been hard for me to deny her what she wants, from pizzas to holidays to new bathroom, cars etc. And babies. We now have four ivf conceived babies she has carried and birthed for us. This cost us a lot of money we didn’t have. I am eternally grateful to her for them. They are amazing kids and I believe it to be partly the amount of time she spends with them in the first couple of years. She hasn’t worked since having them though she does have a dog boarding business from home. But she basically does the admin and is the face of the business and I actually look after the dogs.

I guess I could do with some general financial advice as well as navigating this with a pwbpd. I am a self employed piano teacher. I do two days in a school and one or two hours at people’s homes and online each day. My wife needs help with school picks ups and drop offs so it’s hard for me to work more. I’m thinking of performing in care homes again. I have done domestic cleaning but it’s hard work for little money.

The problem is our debts. She calls them my debts because she paid off her own debts last year, £13k, with an allowance I gave her, and the dog money. Meanwhile she paid off one credit card of mine too, but blamed me for getting into further debts afterwards: this was because I had no money and had to buy things like groceries on credit card.

My wife finally seems to be growing up a bit more. She is on weight loss injections which are helping her not to crave junk food. She no longer has any credit cards and doesn’t want them. She is constantly putting pressure on me to give her more money, which I don’t have and my hands are tied as I can’t earn it. She is judgemental of such things as me buying my mother some helium balloons for her 80th birthday. I’m not allowed to question her purchases like apple cider gummies to also help with weight loss.

She thinks I am financially controlling. Yes I have somehow managed to keep this boat afloat through her over-spending, though we are drowning in debt, my one loan, one credit card, and a large debt to the gas/electric suppliers.

She is now suggesting selling the house and downgrading (again) to pay off debts. We did this a couple of years ago, but she never learnt from it, but does seem to have learnt now but I think this would be a very poor financial decision and selling/buying houses and moving is expensive.

My wife wants us to have a joint bank account where all my pay goes into so she can see what money I have. I have had to cut her allowance right down due to having to do school pick up and drop off last term and now our new baby is here, she still can’t do those with all four kids and I do get that, they are only small and we do not have family nearby to help out (we moved a long way to a cheaper area).

Any thoughts or advice welcome. I know I have enabled her. Not stood up to her, or for myself. I am much better at it than I used to be. Of course it was a poor financial decision to have every single ivf baby, but whilst I feel over the moon to have these amazing kids, of course my wife is still not happy, and I never thought I’d say it, but now the reason she’s not happy is because “I” am in debt.

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[Notwendy]

You know my story TP. The only boundary I know of is keeping access to some money from your wife. The reaction isn’t easy to deal with but unless there are some limits on your part with her spending- it’s uncontrollable. She isn’t able to control her behavior with money. I would not agree to a joint account.

II understand now why my father was not able maintain control in their situation. It’s very difficult - but to have any control you will need to be firm with boundaries.

[Tangled mangled]

Joint bank accounts will be a terrible mistake. There will be more judgment and arguments erupting from her having control over your earnings.

I made mistakes in my marriage but I’m very proud of myself for refusing a joint bank account with my ex husband. The current state of affairs: he’s not paid the mortgage for a year and the bank will repossess the property while I’m awaiting financial settlement for the divorce. Thankfully the mortgage is in his name only. Imagine there was a joint account too.

[GaGrl]

My husband is a financial advisor. When he is asked, his recommendation for couples' accounts is separate checking, separate savings and retirement accounts, and a small joint account for shared household expenses.

Your situation is a bit different, as you earn the bulk of the income.

My advice is not to have a joint account, and certainly don't sell the house.

[thankful person]

Thank you all. I do not have a problem with giving my wife an allowance out of the money I make, though I don’t want a joint account. She says herself that she doesn’t particularly want a joint account because she still wouldn’t know what money she could spend due to the majority of the money being needed for bills.

One problem is that I am self-employed and my income is erratic and unpredictable. Another problem is that she is highly resistant to me working because of her fear of abandonment, thinking I’m having a wonderful time with other people without her… because she needs help with the kids… and because apparently, “all I ever talk about is work” so I must prioritise it over her. I have cut my hours down lots in order to help with the morning and evening routines at home etc.

The thing is she is now doing a good job of saving money, which she does through “cash stuffing” . What this means is she has spent unknown amounts of money on special binders and money jars etc in order to save money. She then gets the cash out of the bank to save at home. This makes no sense to me, but apparently in these modern times, money in the bank is easier to spend. We recently had an issue where she hadn’t kept track of how much money was in a massive jar of coins. When she wanted it paid in the bank she sent me to do it and there was a machine at the bank which said there was about £200 less than she thought. I tended to trust the machine more than my wife, even though I wouldn’t want to put my own money in such a device. Anyway I complained on her behalf but the bank couldn’t help me, just told me the machines are accurate.

So, the money I get paid, a regular amount of it goes to my wife,  and the rest stays in my bank account to pay the bills. She does her cash stuffing with it. I have nothing to spare and never buy myself anything. The money she gets from *me* looking after dogs also goes straight to cash stuffing.

My wife is getting commission on TikTok from selling money containers to other people who want to spend money in order to save money.

My wife laments that we can’t afford for the kids to have swimming and dancing lessons and I point out that they have a new baby brother we all adore and that is essentially why we’re in this hole. She doesn’t want them to miss out like she feels she did, not getting anything or doing anything as a child. This is her reason for wanting to sell the house to free up some money. She is a massive fan of Dave Ramsey and I wish she could talk to him because I’m not convinced he would tell us to sell our house (we became mortgage free with our previous move, so it would just mean a finite amount of cash which would run out, and then we’d be left with a cheaper house and no debts but still have no money.)

[CC43]

Hi there,

I agree with the other posters, you keep your bank account. If it’s « your » debt, you pay most of the bills and you earn the income, then you need to control the account.  And I’d say, if you downsized before and didn’t improve your situation, downsizing your home again would likely produce a similar result, and any spare money would be eaten up with the costs of moving, fees, taxes and repairs/furnishings/toys.  You might consider having only one family car, if only for a time until you get your finances under control.

I think you’d start to feel better if you upped your income. Could you take on more work from home?  I’d say, don’t talk about it, just do it. Cutting expenses might feel hard, but if you are frantic and desperate, maybe you cut the non-essentials for six months to a year, and see if you get more control. Items that come to mind are all TV, cable and streaming subscriptions; gym memberships; any take-out food or restaurants; travel and vacations. Cutting TV can actually be very liberating—all of the sudden, parks, libraries, radio and museums become interesting.  Without the distraction of constant in-home  entertainment, working and learning don’t seem as disagreeable.

I’d also suggest nurturing your wife’s interest in Ramsey. I don’t know his techniques well, but he’s famous because he gives no-nonsense advice to people who are in financial distress. Cutting up credit cards and paying bills in cash is likely a technique to avoid increasing credit card debt, which is expensive and represents spending on things with money you do not have.  Spending cash seems more tangible and real than swiping a debit card, and you can’t overdraw an account using cash. So if your wife is paying for things with cash from her allowance, that means she’s spending within her budget, which is the right mindset to have. If she wants more cash, then she needs to work more, spend less or both—the choice is hers. Learning that lesson is vital. Typically the next step is tracking spending, and understanding where the money goes. After that she can make better choices about wants versus needs. The next step is to draw up a budget. If she did that, then maybe you could start to have a conversation.  Maybe she could save up for those activities the kids want to do. That your wife is learning these techniques shows progress and some maturity. I think that’s heading in the right direction.

My spouse is not BPD but he too is triggered if I ever mention work. I think he picks up on the stress of it, and he might feel bad because he doesn’t work as many hours as I do. He doesn’t want to feel guilty!  He doesn’t want to be reminded that I’m earning money and controlling the purse strings for much of the household’s spending. So I minimize talk about work, and honestly, that’s not such a bad thing. You might need to vent your stress sometimes, and that’s understandable. Maybe the forum can help. I find that a walk can help, too.

[Notwendy]

It's been a learning experience dealing with my BPD mother about money, something I had no involvement with until recently. Like your wife, she has some awarenes and responsible traits- but thinks about money differently. There is an emotional component to how people manage money- so it makes sense that someone with BPD would have their emotions involved in financial issues.

I think the emotional component is with everyone to some extent- some people are generous, some are not, some are thrifty, some can't live within their income- whatever that income is. There's also a fact component- numbers and math.

My BPD mother's behavior with money is emotional. This makes it very difficult to reason with her, logically, over numbers. Still, when it comes down to it, she seems to have some awareness of necessary expenses. She knows that expenses like rent, credit card bills, pharmacy bills, need to be paid. She knows she has to cut back on some spending. But she will say - "I don't spend any money on myself" which is surprising because any money she has is spent on herself. There's no other expenses she has.

It's perception. Rent doesn't seem like  something she spends on herself. She's said things like she "didn't buy a sweater for herself " to show she's economizing while spending way more on something else. So in this way she feels she's somehow denied herself something but doesn't seem to grasp the relative costs of things. Whether or not she buys a sweater doesn't have a large impact on her spending.

As to downsizing the house- don't. With emotional spending- the extra money won't be handled any better than it is now and you will have less value and equity in the house. Also, the children will grow and a smaller house may feel more cramped.

Some of this is the emotional aspect of money driving the spending. BPD mother uses money to sooth her feelings but since money is external and her feelings are a part of her BPD- spending money can only provide a temporary soothing and in this context, there's the need for more of it.

It does seem like your wife is making some progress with her awareness of finances. Consider that, emotionally, she may continue to feel how she does with any amount of money. What you wish for is for her to not think like she does- to not think you are financially controlling, for her to actually see and appreciate your contribution to the family- but this is wishing for her to change her thinking and trying to do things to change her thinking. We can't change anyone's thinking.

I think it's great that your wife is interested in Dave Ramsey. This introduces a potential "authority" with financial planing that isn't "you". If the two of you followed his financial advice/plan and your wife wanted to buy something- a response could be "let's see what Dave Ramsey would say about this" rather than saying "no, we can't afford it" ( which is actually both reasons). Don't make him the bad guy though- she could paint him black, lose interest in his information. So the plan may need to have room for errors, her own emotional spending at times maybe and also some built in rewards for her efforts- and a lot of positive reinforcement and praise for them. The goal is progress in a better direction.

[thankful person]

Thank you CC43,
You make some good points, thank you. It’s complicated taking on more work from home, because I tutor online. So the problem is my wife needs to be on board with the plan so that she can keep the kids away from my lessons. If it’s at a time she’s preparing food for example, we’ve had issues before where she thinks it’s my problem that the kids are being so loud that I can’t teach for example. I had a very humiliating situation last year where i had to abandon a lesson and not charge for this reason. This leads on to the fact that she always has to agree for me to take on new students, even though she will later likely complain that it was a stupid thing to do and she will deny ever agreeing with me. This is why i end up discussing work with her. I can’t win because she gets angry if remind her I have work later, and she gets angry if I don’t remind her. She’s also been complaining that my teaching stops the girls from doing dance class cos she can’t take all four kids with her. But it’s actually because I have to do school pick up on nursery days because she wouldn’t be able to take them all being so tired. It’s complicated.

Not Wendy, my wife does seem to be maturing a bit. Today she built a snowman, it was the first time she’s ever done it. I was thankfully inside looking after the baby, and I remembered the last and only time we tried to build a snowman together before kids and it ended in disaster with no completed snowman. Anyway, I glanced out of the window and quickly walked away cos I saw her angrily kicking her snowman to the ground. And came in really upset and both her and D5 were in tears. Ok this wasn’t the part where she’s growing up. She went upstairs to get changed and meanwhile I’m comforting D5 who’s really upset. W came back down and said that she was now ok and “over it” and “let’s all have hot chocolate” telling D5 not to worry and reassuring her. She quietly told me that actually she wasn’t over it. I expressed sorrow for whatever happened with the snowman. And nothing more was said all day. Astounding improvement. I know it’s not the best thing for a kid to see, but she could have been and used to be so much worse. Oh and yes I had thought of the risk of her painting Dave Ramsey black and so I’m making an effort not to show too much interest in him, only what she’s showing me things he says.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I can relate to the difficulties of working from home and the spousal demands. I learned that there are times of day, such as dinner time, when my husband will basically fall apart if I’m working instead of attending to him and the family. But there are other times like early mornings which are less problematic. So I juggled my schedule to optimize.

I think you need two essentials:  a door, and a headset (combination headphones and microphone). Those can really help with online meetings. And you need to remind and explain to your spouse that you’re working together to earn the money you both deserve.  You’re doing the best you can to help out at critical times, but you are counting on her to support you when you are teaching. You need to support each other to get what you want. Fair enough?

[ForeverDad]

Also if you ever receive inheritances, it is vital to keep them in a separate personal account.  In the USA if you commingle inheritances with joint accounts, housing, vehicles or expenditures, it becomes marital assets, no longer yours to decide how to use but "ours".

[Notwendy]

Also if you ever receive inheritances, it is vital to keep them in a separate personal account.  In the USA if you commingle inheritances with joint accounts, housing, vehicles or expenditures, it becomes marital assets, no longer yours to decide how to use but "ours".

True but if the spouse knows it's there- then there could still be the push to access it. One argument I remember (from the teen years)  my parents having is when Dad got a work bonus and didn't tell BPD mother about it. I understand now why he didn't but when she found out (don't know how that happened) she was very angry. That is also understable- to be upset to find out a spouse was hiding money from you.

Dad had sufficient money. The problem wasn't that we needed more money. It was that my BPD mother has continuous emotional needs and money- spending on thing she felt she "has" to have in the moment were ways of alleviating this for her- but also they were temporary.

The problem is that it is very difficult to say no to my mother and when faced with a "no" she has other ways of getting what she wants. Also, there's a benefit to providing for her- and being seen as the good guy, gaining her favor- is an aspect to the relationships. You want to see your wife happy- to be loving and caring.

I think seeing this as "gold digging" is too simplistic and not descriptive of the actual situation. Money isn't the goal of this behavior. It's relief of emotional discomfort- which people do in other maladaptive ways- emotional eating, maybe alcohol, and shopping are examples. These aren't always bad behaviors in themselves- (having a drink with dinner, buying something nice once in a while) but they are problematic when they are excessive, disrupt relationships, or the family finances.

It's not wrong to want to order take out, or take a nice vacation,  but these things need to be considered in context of the budget. You are thinking in these terms. For your wife, if it's an emotional need, she believes she has to have them for emotional relief and so her pursuit is intense. It's hard for you to resist this intensity and discomfort on her part. Also, you want her to think well of you and be affectionate. In this situation, logic, and budget- aren't considered.

[ForeverDad]

After my mom's mother died, her father remarried.  In recent years I've wondered what pressures he faced...

Back in my youth my step-grandmother always had a bit of a smile on her face.  I was clueless then but I look back and wonder whether it was pasted on.  Well, I grew up and spent over 20 years as a religious volunteer.  My funds were tight all those years, I can't count the times I walked for miles in NYC - even walking the Brooklyn Bridge countless times - just to save the cost of a subway ride.  Once when I was was still single I had returned home on a vacation and I recall just once, as he and I were on his sidewalk returning to his home, he gave me a folded $5 bill and asked me not to tell his wife.  Notice how my mother explained it in the post below.  He was a pleasant soul, an avid gardener and I treasured that, but that was the only monetary gift he ever gave me.

Her perspective is an entitled one.  Of course she likes ideas that are in her favor.  And of course your thoughts don't matter, if she can get away with it.

As my mother enlightened me when my grandfather had given me $5, just the once, and asked me not to tell his wife, my step-grandmother... "Her money is her money, his money is their money."

My mother added that they were both retired, but she had so much money for herself that she had to pay taxes on the interest income!  All this over $5?

[Notwendy]

My mother added that they were both retired, but she had so much money for herself that she had to pay taxes on the interest income!  All this over $5?

During my parents' era, most women didn't work outside the home. My father was the wage earner in the family but it seemed BPD mother controlled the money.

I recall once when I was in college, I was in the car with my father and I asked to stop at a store to buy something I wanted. The item, at the time, was about $5.

Dad's response to me "Did Mother say you could have this?"
I replied that I had my own money (from a job) and would buy it myself.

I didn't think much of it at the time, but later, I thought it was odd - why couldn't my father just decide yes or no to buy me the item.I think both parents need to be in alliance over a major purchase, but this wasn't one.

There were also some "don't tell mother" if he gave me something. I think if she found out he gave me something without consulting with her first, it would prompt a dysregulation.

[thankful person]

Thank you both, there definitely is the issue of what’s hers is hers and what’s mine is hers. Throughout our relationship I have always used examples to show how she has different rules for herself but to no avail. I generally don’t. Anymore. Because when I do it just creates a bad atmosphere which Is nothing near what it used to be but I try to avoid it. Recently I don’t remember why but I brought up the time she helped herself to £150 out of the wedding fund my mother gifted us, to set herself up with an MLM business. And lied to me and told me it was £15. This was a long time ago but i won’t forget it. My Mum had her 80th birthday and she loved her balloons and I’m just so happy I got her them. My wife is now is talking about getting two puppies. I think it sadly will be a good idea when our dog passes on. He has always been “her” dog even though we got him together. Anyway I’m like, why do we need two dogs? One has always been enough. And she’s like, one of them will be YOURS. (Long story as to why the current dog is hers. I have never had my own dog, although I couldn’t possibly love our dog anymore than I do. But yes, it is very hard to say no to her.

[thankful person]

Oh and postscript to the murdered snowman story. Our wonderful little D5, so calm and sociable and confident and seemingly stable… we returned to school the other day and two other mothers were waiting in the entrance with their kids, I didn’t know them. They were all talking about snowmen and D5 excitedly tells them all, “My Mummy built a snowman and then she kicked it down because it was falling over!” Everyone thought this was hilarious and I didn’t bother telling them actually that wasn’t me but my wife and actually the experience was far more traumatic than the way she’s telling it. I hate to think what else she’s told people, but she is I guess parentified in her ability to not mention the adult tears and tantrums that happened that day.

[Notwendy]

When we grow up with a parent who has a disorder- we don't have a reference for "normal". Also, for 5 year olds- tantrums aren't unusual. They are less common as children that age are gaining emotional regulation skills, but the kids probably thought an adult having one was funny.

That doesn't mean it's good for a child to have a parent who has difficulty with emotional regulation, but for your D- this is what she knows.

Children will love their parents, ( or try to) - even disordered or abusive ones.

For me, I was a bit older when I began to think something was different with my BPD mother, but didn't have the maturity/perspective to truly understand the situation. Also, I didn't have access to information about BPD. People speak about mental illness more openly now, so even school age children have probably heard about it- on TV, or through friends but kids can only comprehend according to their ages.

I have a memory of sitting at the dinner table at about age 12, and telling Dad what I was learning in school. He was paying attention. At the other end of the table, BPD mother joined in the conversation, but she was acting cute and silly. I recall this because, I had this odd feeling that she was acting like a younger child.

You are doing the best you can, keeping your family intact and functional. You have kids, a wife with emotional/mental disorders, and financial stresses. And now there's discussion about adding 2 puppies?  I love pets too but they take care and also money. Part of the financial and time stresses are your wife's wishes but managing this also would require some decisions on your part- is it affordable.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, thank you. I think D5 is already aware that bpdw is “different”, though of course all anyone knows is how people behave in public, and any number of teachers or parents could actually be dysregulated at home. I am looking forward to being able to discuss my wife’s behaviour with the kids in more detail as they get older. I know the word bpd doesn’t need to be mentioned. However my wife intends to explain a bit about her self harm scars when they get old enough and she sees herself as a bpd recoverer so she may tell them herself of her diagnosis.

My wife seems to have seriously turned a corner (though I know she could turn back around it). But she is saving for the new dogs plus food, vets, insurance and I’m very impressed. Her dog boarding business is doing very well actually too, although I get no direct say in what she does with that money. I would like my own dog she has really got me with that one. Manipulative yes. How much more crazy could it be? (We know puppies eat everything as we have them staying here quite a lot so aside from food we are used to removing accessible wires, toys, doormats, towels, clothing.. you name it. And we will get them crates for sure.) I haven’t told her whether I’m in agreement or even that I’d like a dog, because then she might stop saving the money for it.