Couple of recent scenarios - sharing and curious what others might have done

[campbembpd]

Hi All,

A couple of recent events specifically that really hurt me... Would love to know what would have been an appropriate course of action to take:

My wife goes on at least one personal vacation a year (girls trip) and as the caretaker I don't of course do anything of the sort. No personal trips for 7 years, not even a work trip. But I had a work conference booked for early Dec. My wife just went to Europe for almost 2 weeks shortly before this BTW on a girls trip. Months ahead I told her I wanted to extend my trip by 2 nights and go to another nearby city where we had friends and I was going to a theme park for a couple of days by myself. I'm a nerd like that. She was 100% fine and seemed very supportive at that time. Work trip was pretty fine but the day I was leaving to go to the city for my 'personal' time this started spiraling fast. So much nonsense to me... she was getting mad that I was tired and apparently was saying 'um' too much so said I must be hiding something. She started saying we didn't talk or facetime hardly at all during my trip. Angrily said our conversations are stunted and we have nothing to ever talk about (we talk all the time, this is irrational but I don't say that). I pointed out that we talked several times a day since I've been gone, we facetimed for nearly an hour the first day and even went back to phone logs to remind her that we talked xx minutes on day one, xx on day 2, etc.

We would talk every night and/or text good night every night when she went to bed (she was 3 hours ahead of me) but I didn't call or text to say goodnight when I went to bed since it was 1am her time. She said she knows I'm doing something "fishy" which eventually went into her stating she knows I cheated on her but she can't prove it, but she 'knows' I did. This was all at the airport before my short flight to the city where our friends live.

Once I landed for the whole night it was a not stop onslaught of texts. Angry passive aggressive comments, saying she's in an abusive marriage. yada yada yada. But I'm there with our friends (and the wife was one of her good friends where we used to live). Angry texts like "have a great time with my friends" and "I have to work at 7am tomorrow and you have to be at the theme park. You're such a double standard jerk" I respond saying "I love you and I'll text you later" gets back "this is the abusive marriage I'm talking about". WTH?

Just craziness for the next couple of days. She was mad the next day because I didn't call her when we left our dinner the night before (it was 2am her time). The worst was the next day when I was at the theme park.  I tried to start things off on a good note and just sent pics and good mornings. She was still in a real dark place. I called her to on the phone and I'm calm, trying to be upbeat. She starts laying into me - "why didn't you call last night? I know you cheated on me! Something fishy is going on and you're lying to me. You're going to meet someone there!" It went on and on for 30 minutes and I finally nearly started crying. I told her everything that's happened. I can't make her believe me. I told her what I had planned for the day and she has a GPS tracker on my phone so she can see where ever it is I go! The conversation ended but she was still fuming.  I told her she should have received flowers that morning. I ordered them the day I left for my work conference because I thought it would be nice for her to get something from me while I was gone. She immediately accused me of doing something wrong and I sent them because I must have been feeling guilty. She didn't believe I sent them at the beginning of the week, before I was even gone and I had to forward her the email receipt to prove it.

Basically she ruined my f-ing trip. There was more that night. I eventually got mad and told her she's ruined my trip and she needs a psychiatrist. She lost it and said I wasn't welcome home. She was changing the locks and was telling the kids and my whole family about how terrible and abusive I am, how I've treated her our marriage, starved her, controlled her, etc. Said she's throwing my stuff on the sidewalk. I'm going to lose everything and I've ruined Christmas! 

She woke up the next day and said she was lost, scared and felt abandoned. She went on about every thing she was upset about and how she just kept feeling abandoned. She was coming out of her spiral and more calm. Said she wanted me to enjoy my day and of course was welcomed home.

I tried to enjoy my last day as much as I could but I was (and am) so mad. And it's hard to forgive it just because she's mentally ill. This isn't the first time she's done this. She did this in the past when I would go golfing (gave up golfing), got into photography (gave up photography) and when we lived near this theme park I would work in the area and when I went by myself it triggered her then, even 10-15 years ago. Part of me thinks I have to get strong enough where the first sign of any BS I give her a warning and if she doesn't stop I shut down any conversation or texting, block her phone and don't engage at all. Tell her I'll call her that night but if she's starts any accusations, mean words, etc then I'll end the conversation and will talk to her the next evening. I honestly think the only way I could be 'free' to enjoy myself is if I had NC with her for the entire duration. 

-------

Christmas eve from hell

Day before xmas eve. She gets home from work and is in a mood. Non specific just angry and grouchy. Her mother is visiting and starts complaining to me about her mother. How she can't do this anymore or can't hear at all and on and on. Just starting to be a B, ya know? My wife starts talking about a friend of hers because they've had a unstable relationship and her friend hasn't talked to her for a couple of weeks. It got disturbing because she started talking about revenge. Saying she should go to lunch with her friend's ex husband's new wife. Who she knows but isn't friends with. She starts thinking about calling this woman to meet her just so she can post a photo on social media where her friend will see it and she'll be so hurt! Just saying bad things about her. It was so gross to me but know better then to weigh in. She's talked about taking revenge on people in the past (honestly this trait and desire for revenge and hurting others scares the bejeezus out of me because I can only imagine what she could be capable of if her and I split)   

I take my daughter to a dr appt (I take the kids to all appts). It's all good, happy to do it. The day before my wife and I said we probably don't need to make xmas cookies because we just got a bunch from a neighbor. When I was out with my daughter she was disappointed when I told her we weren't making cookies, she said it's a tradition. No big deal to me (I do all the cooking and baking anyway) so I said sure and we just needed to stop at the store for something after the dr. Get home and my uBPDw blows up. Because I didn't include her in the plans to make cookies. I wanted to laugh except she was exploding with anger. It was one of the most ridiculous insane conversations I've ever had. Mad about making xmas cookies?

She was mad the rest of the day and night, just being a B and snipping at everyone. My daughter was so sad, said mom was going to be like this on Christmas... breaks my heart. Wife continues drinking and at some point I say I need to go to bed, I had to work xmas eve in the morning. Mad saying if someone else was there I would want to party. She brought up our friends who I visited in the last story, saying if so and so were here you'd want to party then wouldn't you??? She was mad I didn't want to stay up and drink with her.

xmas eve was terrible. She had texted some things after I went to bed that I didn't see until the AM. Things like if I think I'm getting any sleep I'm mistaken because she's going to wake me up and fight with me. I can't believe you did this to me. She didn't wake me up thank god. She rehashed everything from the day before. The xmas cookie discussion was repeated at least 12 times. Stupid me, I think after I'm done working late morning I'll take her to an appointment she had scheduled so we can have lunch and maybe it will improve her mood. Get xmas even on the right track. Yeah didn't work. Just went on. Hard to remember all the different things she was angry about - how I didn't respond properly when she suggested we go to xmas eve church service, later mad at our daughter because she didn't know where her boyfriends family was sitting (wife was not only mad but drunk by the time we went to xmas eve service). My wife texts my daughter something in church, next thing I know my daughter (18) starts crying, almost sobbing. I was so angry but kept my cool. I leaned over and asked what she texted her. Wife lost it because I asked, left service and stood out in the lobby area the rest of the service.

The whole night was so messed up. Just a S-show. Got home from church and she's mad at me because I didn't chase her out to find out what was wrong and beg her to come back. I did text her and told her to come back and she's loved. We're all sitting on the couch later and wife is now pretty much attacking the others there - daughter, myself and even her mother. Everyone said me asking what she texted our daughter was a normal and ok question to ask. Daughter is crying and begging her not to do this, it's Christmas. wife starts saying she's going to leave and will be gone for Christmas. Her mom starts crying. The whole time I'm as cool as a cucumber, telling her she's loved. She's yelling at me that she can't feel my love. She went into the bedroom for 30 minutes, mad turned to sad.  Came back out and it was kind of calmer, daughter went to bed. We finally went to bed and we were getting in she said she wanted me to leave and go onto the couch. I didn't at first. I said let's go to sleep, it's christmas eve and let's just try to have a good sleep. Then she started kicking me with her feet. Literally kicking me out of bed. I told her to not kick me again and she repeated so I got up, didn't say a word and went to sleep in the other room. On Christmas eve. 

She got me at 5:30am and asked me to come back to bed. We slept for a bit longer then woke up early. She was snapped out of it again. She seemed to have a rational thought and said maybe there is something wrong with her. She said she thinks she's losing me or that I don't love her and it makes her go out of her mind come and she feels like she's going to fall apart. She said maybe she does need to see a psychiatrist. I say I don't know what she needs but I think definitely a therapist is needed. But I also know that she's said things like this before and then they pass.

I don't even know what I could have done. I am just getting to that point where I feel like I need to get hard lined and be prepared for a storm. Either she'll devalue me completely, split me and divorce me, start a malicious smear campaign or she'll get herself help. I suppose things could also get bad enough where I would have to call the police or suicide hotline and she could be put in for psych eval then maybe that could lead to her getting help. I'm hopeful for therapy and think I'm going to take another stab at Al Anon, I tried before but I couldn't find a mens group which is what I want.

Oh also, I'm kind of personally prepared for this and the personal loss if she does leave, etc but there is one major factor is holding me back. Our daughter has been with an awesome young man for about a year. They're young but I really think this could be 'the' guy. I'm not a fan of her getting married early or anything but they're both super involved with the church, this kid is 19 years old and isn't on any social media, so well grounded. His family is great. They are not sexually active and are 100% waiting for marriage. As a dad who is super protective of guys and his daughter I really couldn't imagine a better person for her to end up with. I guess I have a fear of how much crazy will happen when I start therapy, start working on boundaries. I know things will get worse before they get better. My worry is that could start impacting this young man, his family and scare him away or scare his family away. Although I don't want her to get married right away it would make me feel better if they were engaged or if they were married before anything crazy happened. Things got very very bad with my uBPDw when I was previously working with a therapist on boundaries and codependency. I fully expect that and even much worse. But I want to make sure my daughter is okay and taken care of.

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[once removed]

Basically she ruined my f-ing trip.

i dealt with important events being upended a lot. it made me really, really resentful.

a few things stand out to me:

She woke up the next day and said she was lost, scared and felt abandoned. She went on about every thing she was upset about and how she just kept feeling abandoned.

take this at face value.

if theres one thing i wish everyone understood about bpd from the start, it is that they are needy people, who, like you and me, generally express their needs, but they do so in dysfunctional, destructive, counter-productive, and often hurtful ways. your wife is telling you she did that/does that.

when you understand that, it becomes easier to read what is really going on; where the testing and lashing out is coming from, and what, if anything, is valid about it. because deep down, between the lines, between the distortions, accusations, and all around extreme feelings, theres usually a valid human need.

she was getting mad that I was tired and apparently was saying 'um' too much so said I must be hiding something.

what she was doing was becoming hypervigilant. people with bpd traits in general are hypervigilant when it comes to their environment, and other people. put them in a situation they fear (the perceived impending threat of abandonment) and that hypervigilance can skyrocket. its a way of managing the fear/anxiety.

stuff like that, as you may know already, is usually an indicator of a storm-a-brewin. sometimes you can head them off, and often times pro-active measures like the ones you took will really help, but sometimes, the kitchen sink is coming, and JADEing is just like throwing gasoline on the fire, and perhaps more insidiously, teachers our partners that its an effective way to get our attention/reassurance.

I pointed out that we talked several times a day since I've been gone, we facetimed for nearly an hour the first day and even went back to phone logs to remind her that we talked xx minutes on day one, xx on day 2, etc.

i know that when someone says "we didnt do this", and you know that you did, its a natural response to point out that you did, and it wont necessarily hurt to say it once, but it misses the point shes trying (dysfunctionally) to communicate. she doesnt have a memory problem. adding up minutes of phone calls isnt going to make her see the light, because it isnt really about the facetiming.

when, instead, you learn to hear these all-or-nothing, black and white distortions and charges, as a person with a deep skills deficit trying to express a need, it becomes easier to respond, in a constructive way, to that.

tried to start things off on a good note and just sent pics and good mornings. She was still in a real dark place. I called her on the phone and I'm calm, trying to be upbeat.
...
I ordered them the day I left for my work conference because I thought it would be nice for her to get something from me while I was gone. She immediately accused me of doing something wrong and I sent them because I must have been feeling guilty.

generally, these are good pro-active measures. try not to let the results discourage you from that.

impending or actual separation tends to be a huge catalyst for anxiety for someone with bpd traits (as you have clearly experienced), and fights over it are extremely common.

consistency, reassurance, checking in, transitional objects (stuff like teddy bears, or, for example, my ex would listen to the piano playing of her ex in light of his absence), sweet gestures, these can go a ways, not only at soothing the immediate anxiety, but also building that relationship security long term. it can be good to have discussions about this, and even ask what kinds of things might help.

sometimes, a person is just in a dark place, and yeah, in that case, an upbeat mood might feel invalidating, or flowers might look like an admission of guilt, etc.

your wife, from the time she started pointing out your "ums" was never really in a constructive place. sometimes (inevitably) storms will happen, and you just have to ride them out (let your partner return to baseline). sometimes you can head them off. sometimes, you can defuse the bomb. ideally, we can get to where they are fewer and further between, and less chaotic, but we will always have challenges.

Part of me thinks I have to get strong enough where the first sign of any BS I give her a warning and if she doesn't stop I shut down any conversation or texting, block her phone and don't engage at all. Tell her I'll call her that night but if she's starts any accusations, mean words, etc then I'll end the conversation and will talk to her the next evening. I honestly think the only way I could be 'free' to enjoy myself is if I had NC with her for the entire duration.  

this would be a pretty hard 180. hard 180s are generally not constructive, and i can virtually guarantee you that she would escalate her behavior in response; its human nature.

you absolutely need to develop a system of healthy time-outs and polite exits, though they are two different things. time-outs are frequently employed as punitive reactions that are really about changing someones behavior or punishing them for it. healthy time outs are good when the discussion has broken down beyond repair, and especially when we feel like the worst of us is coming out. its the kind of thing to discuss and mutually agree upon in a time of calm, if possible ("what do we both think is the best thing when both of us are overwhelmed"). it is pretty common though, when someone is really worked up beyond the point of no return, for any exit from a conversation to work them up even more; thats why it helps to have buy in, even if theres some trial and error.

polite exits are more about recognizing when your wife is in a dark place and throwing the kitchen sink at you and nothing you can possibly say will help (not any complaint she brings to you or "the first sign of bs", like the point i kind of got to, but recognizing in your wife personally when shes past the point of no return). not taking the bait and finding ourselves in circular arguments defending ourselves against absurd things. how to employ them specifically depends a lot more on you, your wife (you know her best), and the nature of your relationship. yes, it can look like not responding and just putting the phone away (best to communicate that youre going to do so and then do it). that might, in the moment, turn into 1000 text messages about what a bastard you are, none of which you ever have to read, or respond to, and she will wear herself out back to baseline. polite exits (im calling them that to differentiate between a time-out; it is not a clinical term) are about the best way to ride out the storm, to make the best out of a bad situation.

you dont want to stonewall, or be punitive. but you dont want to entertain a tantrum, either.

I was (and am) so mad.

i would be too. its a particular bugaboo of mine, interfering with my plans, so id probably hold a significant grudge!

i hope that you have healthy/constructive outlets for your anger, be they people, hobbies, or inanimate objects; do use them. if you are able, make it a point to find some time, some way, to make up for what was lost that feels like a mental win.

if it helps (not at her expense, but with perspective), deep down, your wife is probably all kinds of ashamed, both in ruining your trip, and in her own excessive neediness. she may never say it directly, but i think youll probably see it manifest. those may present themselves as opportunities for real repair.

regardless, as frustrating as i can imagine this was for you, it isnt something you just have to accept; it may take a lot of work and practice, but it can get better.

[campbembpd]

Thanks once removed. That’s a lot to think though and some good points.

When she woke up and said those things it was like a glimmer of self understanding in her I rarely see. I know that’s what’s really going on underneath it all. It’s good and I take that at face value indeed. But it’s fleeting. It doesn’t quite compensate that it feels like it gets emotionally abusive really quickly. This has been going on so long I’ve normalized it. I’m so confused over what would even be considered abuse but I know if I treated her this way, if a man treated a woman this way I just don’t think there would be a debate. It feels like more and more I’m just the caretaker of a mentally ill person instead of a husband to a wife.

But I love her, and I haven’t given up. I want a good  And I know a 180 would be a bad idea absolutely. I want to find a better way to step through and set boundaries, deal with the counter moves and yet step away when the line is crossed.

[Notwendy]

Special occasions also involve stress. If we think of BPD behaviors and addictions as maladaptive ways to cope with stress, it makes sense these behaviors would increase in stressful situations.

This doesn't make the behaviors acceptable but it does help anticipate them.

The unfortunate aspect is that, since special occasions are memorable, these behaviors tend to be remembered too.

As to this young man and your D. I agree that he's too young to comprehend your wife's behavior. I think we all try to be on our best behavior in front of company. Sooner or later though, he and his parents are likely to begin to wonder if something is going on.

If this young man truly cares for your D, he will love her for who he is and stand by her. If the outward appearance that your family isn't the perfect model turns him away- then this is not the person for her. I agree that it's not appropriate to show all the family skeletons in public, but if these two stay together, navigating their own boundaries with your wife's behavior will  be something the two of them will do together.

From what you have said about your D and this young man, they seem grounded and well equipped to manage this in their own family if they end up together. Of course, we don't ever stop needing the connection and emotional support from stable family members  and your being one of them is important. By taking care of your own emotional well being, you will be best able to be of support to them.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Camp,

A couple of things stood out to me in your post. The first is that you referred to yourself as a "caretaker." The second is that you go on to describe many "caretaking" behaviors that I also used to do that I now realize are not only counterproductive but actually "feed the beast" and make my dBPDw's symptoms much, much worse.

When your wife was calling you on your trip, it sounded like you did a lot of JADEing on the phone. This is also something that I would have done in the past. Now I refuse to JADE as it never makes anything better. As Once Removed pointed out, it is like pouring gasoline on a fire. If I were to be in the same situation, I might say something like "I am sorry that you feel that way, it must feel really scary to think that your partner would be cheating on you" or something along those lines. I would give her a chance to express her fears, but if that didn't work and the accusations continued I would politely excuse myself from the conversation saying something like "I would be happy to talk to you about this tomorrow, but I have had a really long day and need to get some sleep." I would then put my phone on silent and give myself the "me time" that we all need to recharge our batteries, especially when BPD is involved.

The second "caretaking" behavior that I noticed was that you said your wife has a GPS tracker on your phone. Been there, done that. It was NOT a good thing for us. I thought that it would be a way to establish trust, but really I was just giving her another thing to obsess over and more control over my life. Rather than building trust, I found myself explaining why I went here, there, or anywhere. There was even one time when the GPS malfunctioned and showed me in a location hours away for a few minutes. After that blip, I was magically back in our town. For me to have traveled that distance and back in a matter of a few minutes, I would have had to have a Star Trek teleporter or be able to fly like Superman. Didn't matter, I was having an affair in that city in her eyes.

Long story short, she is banned from all of my technology. No access to my phone, computer, social media, or anything else. There is a psychological phenomenon called "confirmation bias" and pwBPD have it in spades. Basically, it means that if you believe something is true strongly enough, you WILL find evidence for it being true, regardless of whether it is actually true or not. Try talking to someone who believes in a conspiracy theory sometime. It is much the same crazy-making experience. Nothing you can say or do will dissuade them from their delusional belief. Harmless work-related emails from co-workers are "proof" of affairs, etc. In my experience, nothing good comes from trying to "prove" your innocence to a delusional person who truly believes you to be betraying them. Access to your data and/or location just gives them more ammunition to shoot back at you.

Your wife wants control over you. This is what all of the vacation and Christmas behavior is about. All pwBPD fear abandonment and to mitigate that fear, they try to control their environment and the people in their lives as much as possible. For example, she wanted to drink on Christmas (most likely to try and manage her feelings) and tried to exert control over you by pressuring you to drink with her so she didn't feel bad about drinking. The worst thing you can do is to give them that control. It is not psychologically healthy for them, and it is psychologically devastating for you.

I am pretty sure that I have recommended this book to you in the past, but I will do so again. It was a life-changing book for me. It is called "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad. If you haven't read it, read it. If you have read it, read it again. By following the very concrete advice in that book I have been able to get much of my wife's out-of-control behavior back under control, or at the very least "bullet-proof" myself against it.

She still rages and acts out, but I don't let her control my life anymore. It is still hard. Sometimes she says things that are super hurtful to me that cut me to the bone. Sometimes she still scares the crap out of me. Sometimes I find myself on the cusp of JADEing. Old habits die hard, but I am resolutely working on building and maintaining protective boundaries for myself and our S3 to limit the impact of her chaos on us. I am proud to say that I am no longer a caretaker for her. She now has to deal with her uncomfortable feelings on her own and is learning how to self-soothe. It has been a long, hard slog, but it has been worth it. My quality of life is so much better than it was before I started implementing the advice from that book 16 months ago.


HurtAndTired

[campbembpd]

Hi Camp,

A couple of things stood out to me in your post. The first is that you referred to yourself as a "caretaker." The second is that you go on to describe many "caretaking" behaviors that I also used to do that I now realize are not only counterproductive but actually "feed the beast" and make my dBPDw's symptoms much, much worse.

When your wife was calling you on your trip, it sounded like you did a lot of JADEing on the phone. This is also something that I would have done in the past. Now I refuse to JADE as it never makes anything better. As Once Removed pointed out, it is like pouring gasoline on a fire. If I were to be in the same situation, I might say something like "I am sorry that you feel that way, it must feel really scary to think that your partner would be cheating on you" or something along those lines. I would give her a chance to express her fears, but if that didn't work and the accusations continued I would politely excuse myself from the conversation saying something like "I would be happy to talk to you about this tomorrow, but I have had a really long day and need to get some sleep." I would then put my phone on silent and give myself the "me time" that we all need to recharge our batteries, especially when BPD is involved.

I feel stupid at times because yes I KNOW my behaviors have 'fed the beast' and actually made it worse over time since this has been 15, 20+ years of 'caretaking'. I while I know I'm not responsible for her behaviors I wish, oh wish I would have had knowledge of BPD decades ago. The stupid part is in the moment I end up not maintaining my boundaries! FOG sets in or like the Xmas eve episode - all I want is to get her calmed down so the kids can have a decent Christmas day.  As in my other post - I really can't do it on my own and I accept that now. I just can't. I need therapeutic support and some medication as well to help with the anxiety, etc. 

That's where I need some help and maybe it's more simple then I'm making it. When I was on my trip it was morning time and I was out trying to have a fun independent day. I couldn't exactly say I'm tired and need to go to bed. It's funny because I tried some of this verbiage a year ago or so when I tried and failed to set boundaries. Using recommendations from the books and this site when I would say things like "It sounds like you feel xyx, it must be very scary/painful to think xyz" She would get so frickin angry and say I sounded like a therapist and to stop therapizing her! So I don't know... that's why maybe the meds and new therapy support would help me. I think I've realized there are no magic words or good words I can even say in that moment. At what point do you make a statement then say we're not discussing this until things are calm? And in my case things it may not be calm for 1,2,3, or even 7 days I guess after saying that she'll be screaming, or accusing still then make the statement "I'll be happy to talk to you tomorrow" then put my phone on silent? I'm getting anxiety just typing this knowing the explosions that would ensue.

The second "caretaking" behavior that I noticed was that you said your wife has a GPS tracker on your phone. Been there, done that. It was NOT a good thing for us. I thought that it would be a way to establish trust, but really I was just giving her another thing to obsess over and more control over my life. Rather than building trust, I found myself explaining why I went here, there, or anywhere. There was even one time when the GPS malfunctioned and showed me in a location hours away for a few minutes. After that blip, I was magically back in our town. For me to have traveled that distance and back in a matter of a few minutes, I would have had to have a Star Trek teleporter or be able to fly like Superman. Didn't matter, I was having an affair in that city in her eyes.

Long story short, she is banned from all of my technology. No access to my phone, computer, social media, or anything else. There is a psychological phenomenon called "confirmation bias" and pwBPD have it in spades. Basically, it means that if you believe something is true strongly enough, you WILL find evidence for it being true, regardless of whether it is actually true or not. Try talking to someone who believes in a conspiracy theory sometime. It is much the same crazy-making experience. Nothing you can say or do will dissuade them from their delusional belief. Harmless work-related emails from co-workers are "proof" of affairs, etc. In my experience, nothing good comes from trying to "prove" your innocence to a delusional person who truly believes you to be betraying them. Access to your data and/or location just gives them more ammunition to shoot back at you.

confirmation bias! That's the term I was trying to think of. 100%. She has it in her mind what she's feeling is a fact so every little thing will be warped into proof that it's true.

And yes - the GPS is something I want to address eventually. Again hopeful she'll participate in therapy and we can address that. If not I'll work with the therapist myself to address it but I also know I can't eat the whole elephant at once.

Your wife wants control over you. This is what all of the vacation and Christmas behavior is about. All pwBPD fear abandonment and to mitigate that fear, they try to control their environment and the people in their lives as much as possible. For example, she wanted to drink on Christmas (most likely to try and manage her feelings) and tried to exert control over you by pressuring you to drink with her so she didn't feel bad about drinking. The worst thing you can do is to give them that control. It is not psychologically healthy for them, and it is psychologically devastating for you.

I am pretty sure that I have recommended this book to you in the past, but I will do so again. It was a life-changing book for me. It is called "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad. If you haven't read it, read it. If you have read it, read it again. By following the very concrete advice in that book I have been able to get much of my wife's out-of-control behavior back under control, or at the very least "bullet-proof" myself against it.

She still rages and acts out, but I don't let her control my life anymore. It is still hard. Sometimes she says things that are super hurtful to me that cut me to the bone. Sometimes she still scares the crap out of me. Sometimes I find myself on the cusp of JADEing. Old habits die hard, but I am resolutely working on building and maintaining protective boundaries for myself and our S3 to limit the impact of her chaos on us. I am proud to say that I am no longer a caretaker for her. She now has to deal with her uncomfortable feelings on her own and is learning how to self-soothe. It has been a long, hard slog, but it has been worth it. My quality of life is so much better than it was before I started implementing the advice from that book 16 months ago.

Control yes. She definitely wants to control. So crazy because she accuses me all the time of trying to control her. Yes I've read the stop caretaking book. I'm re-reading and listening to it again right now (for at least the 6th time). I want good therapy support (currently obtaining) and like I said I think I meds will help so I can navigate this.

That's very promising to hear you feel your quality of life is so much better. That gives me hope.

[campbembpd]

Special occasions also involve stress. If we think of BPD behaviors and addictions as maladaptive ways to cope with stress, it makes sense these behaviors would increase in stressful situations.

This doesn't make the behaviors acceptable but it does help anticipate them.

The unfortunate aspect is that, since special occasions are memorable, these behaviors tend to be remembered too.

As to this young man and your D. I agree that he's too young to comprehend your wife's behavior. I think we all try to be on our best behavior in front of company. Sooner or later though, he and his parents are likely to begin to wonder if something is going on.

If this young man truly cares for your D, he will love her for who he is and stand by her. If the outward appearance that your family isn't the perfect model turns him away- then this is not the person for her. I agree that it's not appropriate to show all the family skeletons in public, but if these two stay together, navigating their own boundaries with your wife's behavior will  be something the two of them will do together.

From what you have said about your D and this young man, they seem grounded and well equipped to manage this in their own family if they end up together. Of course, we don't ever stop needing the connection and emotional support from stable family members  and your being one of them is important. By taking care of your own emotional well being, you will be best able to be of support to them.

Thanks so much Notwendy! Well said. There have been many special occasions or family days out ruined by this. I do anticipate it, I expect it's going to happen but it doesn't help. Something else I need to figure out how to address and set boundaries for. My wife monopolizes my time and sometimes I want to invite the kids to a day out somewhere we're going but I don't invite them. I exclude them because I fear she will act out. It happened last weekend and it was upsetting to me. My daughter asked about going and I told her it was just a day out for the wife and I. Which it is 90% of the time. I hate that I've excluded my kids from so much because she can't handle it and there's a good chance she'll get frustrated if they're there being themselves, being kids. Ugh - just part of growing through this I know.

[LittleRedBarn]

At what point do you make a statement then say we're not discussing this until things are calm?

I think we all need to answer this question for ourselves, and everyone's boundary is different.

My own boundary was previously non-existent. I would listen to my dBPDh's criticisms, personal attacks, ranting, abuse and accusations for literally hours or even days. Now, I won't tolerate even one minute of it. There is a particular look that he gets in his eyes - kind of staring - and as soon as what he is saying gets personal, I say that I'm starting to feel afraid and that I need a break from the conversation to give us both a chance to calm down. He absolutely hates this, but I do it all the same. Learning to tolerate his displeasure is a big learning curve for me. But I see it as giving him the chance to learn to self-regulate, rather than using me to do it.

It helps that he has had a lot of DBT therapy so he does know what skills he should be using to regulate his emotions. It's just a question of him remembering to do it!

[ForeverDad]

At what point do you make a statement then say we're not discussing this until things are calm?

One reason JADE doesn't work is because the other is wrapped up in the emotion of the moment and when you "Justify-Argue-Defend-Explain" it puts you in the defensive and that logic which makes sense to us gets lost on the other who is progressively getting more and more emotional or demanding.

I too was clueless before arriving here that it is best to have a firm boundary.  (Expect boundaries to be tested repeatedly.)  An added insight was that since pwBPD resist boundaries, boundaries are for us.  It's what we decide (preferably announced in advance) to do or not do in response to what the other does or does not do.

Does that make sense?  Just letting them rant on without end isn't a boundary.  For example, you can exit (or hang up, etc) and state you'll return in a while so the other has a chance to calm down and reset.  Of course, if you have minor children it would be good to take them with you to a park, restaurant, activity.  Be prepared how to handle things if the other refuses to let you take the children with you.

Browse the Boundary topics on our Tools and Skills Workshops board.

[Notwendy]

Thanks so much Notwendy! Well said. There have been many special occasions or family days out ruined by this. I do anticipate it, I expect it's going to happen but it doesn't help. Something else I need to figure out how to address and set boundaries for. My wife monopolizes my time and sometimes I want to invite the kids to a day out somewhere we're going but I don't invite them. I exclude them because I fear she will act out. It happened last weekend and it was upsetting to me. My daughter asked about going and I told her it was just a day out for the wife and I. Which it is 90% of the time. I hate that I've excluded my kids from so much because she can't handle it and there's a good chance she'll get frustrated if they're there being themselves, being kids. Ugh - just part of growing through this I know.

I don't have a good solution for this. I think a part is your anxiety over her behavior- it may be chicken and egg.

The stress is also being in "survival" mode- just trying to maintain the situation. The focus was mainly on BPD mother and she also monopolized his attention and time. There was only so much a person can do. Her needs took priority. Yes, it was sad. Even adult children still need/want a relationship with their father but there's only so much one can manage. I hope that with the increased understanding of BPD you can manage some boundaries, time for yourself, and time with your kids.

[Notwendy]

Have you ever sat down with your daughter- one on one- somewhere out of earshot of her mother, and asked her how she's feeling about the situation?

This isn't triangulating- the purpose isn't for you to talk about your relationship with her mother.

It's to hear her thoughts and feelings, without judgment, without admonishing or invalidating them.

It's a uncomfortable feeling to have negative feelings about ones own mother. Often, I feared talking about it because, we aren't supposed to speak about our own mothers like that.

But the relationship was verbally and emotionally abusive and I did have feelings about it, valid feelings.

You feel badly not inviting your D on outings because it's easier on your wife. It might also be easier on your kids to not be in a chaotic situation. Your D may feel hurt to not be included but also, she may not want to go on these outings either.