Molehills that turn into mountains

[campbembpd]

I'm working on trying to be more objective and thoughtful instead of just reactive. As always I love the insight and advice here. I'm happy to be back and trying to better myself.

Things have been fine the past few days with my uBPDw and I. Went out on a nice double date last night and had a great time. I set my alarm at normal time so I could get up and go to the gym. She had said the night before she needed to take another day off because she was getting over a UTI (sorry if that's TMI). My alarm went off and I hit the snooze, wanting to sleep for another 5-9 minutes. My wife reaches over and starts holding my hand. I pull my hand back into my sleep position and say 5 more minutes... as I'm trying to get my head back to sleep. I cannot sleep while being touched and have a hard time getting back to sleep period. She is well aware of this but has had anger episodes at me before for this, mad she can't touch me in the middle of the night when she wants (when she wakes me to start cuddling or even wants to hold hands I start really waking and I cannot get back to sleep for an hour or more, it's not voluntary)

It set her off for the day. She said something about NEVER being able to touch me then went to the restroom, I was now awake (so much for snoozing for 5 minutes) so when she got back I reached out to touch her, she put her eye mask on and rolled over. So I got up and started getting ready to go to the gym.

She's been angry all day and could just use some advice. These are some of the things I said:

"It sounds like you're really feeling rejected and I'm here for you. I never intended to reject you, I was trying to go back to sleep for a few minutes"

It's just spiraled into her splitting and using absolutes like we NEVER cuddle (except we did yesterday).

She told me I'm not telling her what she needs to here and if I don't apologize how she wants me to where she feels my sincerity this will be a 3 day fight. I again apologized that she's feeling hurt and it must feel terrible. I told her I absolutely love her and am sincere that I wish she wasn't feeling this way. I said I'm unable to apologize for wanting to sleep however.

She wants me to tell her / apologize saying I should not have pulled away and should have held her hand when she wanted to because that's what she needed at that moment. Even though that meant me giving up sleep that I wanted at the moment.

Some of her comments include:
I hope that 5 minutes was worth it
Do you know how many men want to be touched by me (multiple versions of this)
I guess you'll sleep in the spare room tonight
Don't worry, I'll never touch you again
your alarm went off, you had enough sleep

Standing back and trying to be sane I think I'm looking at this correctly. I understand the feelings behind it her feeling rejected but I don't feel like have anything to apologize for. Can someone please confirm this or give me a perspective? I have a bad feeling she's going to push and push and escalate to a rage. My usual stance is to apologize in a round about way or just give in and agree I shouldn't have done that. But I don't think anyone should have to apologize about wanting to sleep more or that I'm not ready to cuddle at a certain time.

She continued to spit comments at me so I neutrally said again I am so sorry she's feeling hurt and I wish she could feel my love (which she said she can't). She turned on a movie, I asked what she was watching and she said it was about a husband who dies and the wife re-marries. Anyway after a few minutes I told her I was going to do some work in the office so came in here.

It's going to be a battle of wills. I don't feel like I should give in. Maybe I need validation and some examples of how to address this as this will be circular - she will say the same thing over and over and want to 'fix it'. But I don't think there's anything else I can say to fix it and I won't want to be subjected to the barrage of nasty comments and negative space she's in and can't snap out of.

Words/phrases would be helpful. If she wants to discuss the matter again - I want to just say we've already discussed it and understand she's feeling hurt but I can't change how she's feeling. We may have to agree to disagree. Or something. I just don't want to be in the same room if she's going to continue to go on and on about it. How many times do you allow your SO to repeat the same thing until you just say I love you but cannot discuss this anymore? 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[campbembpd]

Some updates:

Went out to talk to her after I had been in the office for a couple of hours.

Per expectations, she’s still very angry & upset. Saying I've hurt her and hurt her. I say I love her, she doesn't feel it she says. She says you hurt me and hurt me and I still stay with you! You don't deserve me! Completely dysregulated. I say I'm so sorry she's hurting and I love her. She says how could I love her when I spent 2 hours in the other room away from her. She says if she did something wrong to me she would be on her hands and knees (something I have done before, she has never just FYI).

She got more angry because I wasn't saying I'm sorry for what I did. She said that when I say I'm sorry she's feeling so hurt it’s psychology BS... went around and around. She asked me if 5 minutes was worth all this (the 5 minutes of sleep I wanted). I said no, it wasn't worth all this but added that I cannot apologize for wanting more sleep. She went from being angry to crying back to angry, mostly angry. I kept pretty neutral. Not yelling, not getting over emotional. That upset her more, she kept wanting me to get ‘emotional’ and when I didn’t it tells her I don’t care any more.

She said I needed to read what she texted her sister and how she bled her heart to her. She very aggressively shoved the phone pushing it into my leg forcefully. I said please do not be forceful like that. She said I don't deserve to read the text and just as aggressively pulled the phone out of my hand. Mockingly she said oh am I hurting you?? what are you a f-ing pansy? Calmly I said I expect the same respect I've giving you and not be aggressive. Clenching her teeth she responded to that saying "stop talking down to me you mother-f-er. Stop it"

I remained calm but in hindsight I probably should have left much earlier. She kept threatening how much worse it was going to get if I walked away. All I do now is walk away she says. Walk away husband is what I have she says. 

Anyway, this went on for another couple of hours. I tried to practice not JADE'ing but know I wasn’t 100% successful. I tried to say things like "I understand you have a perspective and mine is different and that's okay" and I understand you're angry and it's okay to be angry, I'm not the cause of your feeling and I can't change how you feel.”

It ended when she started saying I used to do anything to make her feel better and now I’ve changed. She said I would take her out to dinner or drive her to the beach. (which I have done from time to time) I took a note from something Kells76 said in another post. I said I think you’re right honey, I think I have changed. She said that’s it, you just proved it you don’t love me as much as you used to. You won’t do anything to make me feel better! I emphasized I’m there for her but can’t control how she feels. She kept going on how I should be taking her out to a nice dinner when she’s angry because that’s her love language and I won’t so I don’t love her as much as I used to. A lot of talk about how I used to beg/grovel and cry when she was mad. (I did used to do that, so I guess I am making progress). Years ago that is exactly what I would do before I heard of BPD. I thought it was always my fault and whatever she was blaming me for must be true and I must have done something wrong.

She went to the bedroom, had me grab my stuff so I could stay in the spare room. Again trying to figure out some boundaries and where I’m going wrong but I went in a couple of hours later. We talked and she was somewhat calmer and I ended up sleeping in the room.

We talked about couples therapy which she had agreed to before but dismissed needing any herself. And she said she wants to do counseling through our church, it’s a service they offer. Which isn’t a terrible thing but it’s generally newer therapists / interns getting their experience. They won’t do any diagnosing, etc and I don’t know I guess I’m worried my uBPDw will manipulate them and they won’t have the experience with BPD or PDs to be able to assess the situation. I was really hoping for us to see someone who specialized in BPD and regulating emotions. This isn’t going to be it.

Towards the end she had a couple of other bursts/comments. One was that I’m off work because of MLK day (and she’s not) so she questioned why it was so important for me to go to the gym on Sunday if I could have gone Monday and spend the morning in bed with her. Then she asked if I was doing something with the kids without her, in a snarky tone. I didn’t have any plans and told her that but I asked is there a problem if I did? She flat out said her feelings would be hurt because she would feel left out.

She went to work this morning. I didn’t see her. We texted good morning when I woke up, things seemed ‘ok’ over text. Later I was in the house and my daughter came into my office to tell me mom was trying to call me. I had left my phone in the car. She HATES it if I do not answer her calls or texts immediately. There were some angry texts from her just saying I need to be kind to her and call her, then "I need help!!!!" I called her back and she needed me to submit her timesheet for her contract job. Another crazy thing – she’s never submitted her own timesheet and I just keep doing it. She was angry because she had to have it in in the next few minutes or wouldn’t get paid this week. I sent her the link and credentials. She said she won’t ask for my help again. I just said I hope that the link works and I’m here if she needs help getting it working.

[kells76]

As weird as it sounds, it seems like that was... progress?

You didn't ride the roller coaster with her.

She is kind of coming back to a baseline. Looks like her timeline to re-regulate is more in days than hours -- does that sound correct? That might be really important to remember moving forward -- it could be that trying to check in with her after a couple of hours is too soo and she's not regulated yet.

[ Sidebar: pwBPD often have all three of the following:
-higher than usual emotional sensitivity (content that wouldn't bug you, feels very hurtful to them)
-higher than usual emotional reactivity (situations where you could keep your cool, send them over the edge)
-longer than usual return to baseline (you might be able to come back from an argument in a hour, it takes them a day or two)

You know your W the best, but it might be worth bearing in mind that the two of you seem to have different timelines for resolution post-conflict, and "intruding" on her return to baseline might be too much for her to handle and prolong the conflict. Giving her longer than you expect, to self soothe, could be worth trying ]

Yes, it wasn't "perfect". There are words and phrases and responses that create more options for you than just groveling/apologizing -- for example, agreeing with her that yes, you've changed -- and those don't magically give her enlightenment, like you experienced. But what's critical is that learning new approaches gives you options. You get more choices during those conflicts than just "ride her ride" or "grovel and beg". You get to: agree with her that you've changed, declined to take bait she puts out ("walk away husband"), etc.

It will be interesting to see if her anger over the timesheet is kind of the last burst in this conflict, vs re-ramping up.

The biggest takeaway for me from reading about this experience is that you are doing the hard work of practicing not riding the ride with her. This is different and won't go "perfectly" every time -- it takes practice to find the balance of caring about her while not making yourself available for hurtful/abusive behavior.

I think you had a good insight here:

She said I needed to read what she texted her sister and how she bled her heart to her. She very aggressively shoved the phone pushing it into my leg forcefully. I said please do not be forceful like that. She said I don't deserve to read the text and just as aggressively pulled the phone out of my hand. Mockingly she said oh am I hurting you?? what are you a f-ing pansy? Calmly I said I expect the same respect I've giving you and not be aggressive. Clenching her teeth she responded to that saying "stop talking down to me you mother-f-er. Stop it"

I remained calm but in hindsight I probably should have left much earlier. She kept threatening how much worse it was going to get if I walked away. All I do now is walk away she says. Walk away husband is what I have she says. 

That's information that you can use if/when a conflict happens again -- that sticking around when she's aggressive and swearing doesn't help either of you, and you get to choose to take a break sooner.

...

Have you had any moments in the recent past where you think there was an opportunity to talk with her ahead of time about you "taking a break" when conflict is too heated for you? Can't remember if it's something you've tried in the past.

I.e. did she seem close to baseline/receptive when you were on the date (to be fair, a double date might not be the time, but just as an example of if she can seem open to trying that kind of conversation)?

Even though in the heat of a conflict, she might say all kinds of things about you "always leaving", or she might not remember any agreement, it can still be a relationship-building move to try to have those discussions ahead of time.

While the religious counseling might not be very experienced with PDs, it could be a forum where you have that basic conversation about: "let's get some agreement here when we're both pretty chill, I think I want you to know that in the future, if a conflict feels too much for me or if I feel overwhelmed, my plan is to tell you that I'm taking a break and will text you in an hour about a good time to continue the discussion". I'd hope that even a religious/pastoral counselor could help a couple discuss conflict management at that level.

Could be interesting to find agreement with your W that yes, you're open to trying the counseling thru your church, maybe they can help you both find different ways to manage conflicts.

Has your W articulated why she wants counseling -- what she sees as the problem?

...

Hard stuff -- doesn't mean you weren't successful at finding a new path forward.

[campbembpd]

As weird as it sounds, it seems like that was... progress?

You didn't ride the roller coaster with her.

She is kind of coming back to a baseline. Looks like her timeline to re-regulate is more in days than hours -- does that sound correct? That might be really important to remember moving forward -- it could be that trying to check in with her after a couple of hours is too soo and she's not regulated yet.

She was returning today somewhat to baseline, today she is currently more sad then angry. Her pattern is after she rages she often goes into sadness. But it's precarious because that can turn back to anger and she'll get right back up there.

You know your W the best, but it might be worth bearing in mind that the two of you seem to have different timelines for resolution post-conflict, and "intruding" on her return to baseline might be too much for her to handle and prolong the conflict. Giving her longer than you expect, to self soothe, could be worth trying ]

Her timeline is days most certainly. It is extremely rare once she gets into a rage that she calms down in less then a day. 3 days is average, has been up to 7 days. But yeah, something I've thought about. I know 100% if I leave the room and come back in 2 hours she won't have calmed down at all, she wants to get right back into it. I start to think "what's the point". She already gets pissed when I go away for that long, says I'm avoiding her, don't love her, etc. 

Have you had any moments in the recent past where you think there was an opportunity to talk with her ahead of time about you "taking a break" when conflict is too heated for you? Can't remember if it's something you've tried in the past.

I.e. did she seem close to baseline/receptive when you were on the date (to be fair, a double date might not be the time, but just as an example of if she can seem open to trying that kind of conversation)?

Even though in the heat of a conflict, she might say all kinds of things about you "always leaving", or she might not remember any agreement, it can still be a relationship-building move to try to have those discussions ahead of time.

I have brought it up before but clearly my boundaries were soft and waffle-y. Her response even when she was at baseline is something to the effect of that's not how she works and the worst thing I can do to her is walk away, I should know this.

It's not something she's going to agree to. I want to say it was in the Stop caretaking... book when setting limits it's not about getting a consensus. I cannot see her agreeing to the boundaries I'm setting but as I get clear I think the conversation needs to be had so she knows ahead of time if y happens, I need to to x to take care of myself.

While the religious counseling might not be very experienced with PDs, it could be a forum where you have that basic conversation about: "let's get some agreement here when we're both pretty chill, I think I want you to know that in the future, if a conflict feels too much for me or if I feel overwhelmed, my plan is to tell you that I'm taking a break and will text you in an hour about a good time to continue the discussion". I'd hope that even a religious/pastoral counselor could help a couple discuss conflict management at that level.

Could be interesting to find agreement with your W that yes, you're open to trying the counseling thru your church, maybe they can help you both find different ways to manage conflicts.

Has your W articulated why she wants counseling -- what she sees as the problem?

She continues to say I'm the one that really needs the counseling. That I need to stop treating her so terribly so she gets angry. And when she does get angry/enrages and I'm not caving to her, etc that I'm not being a man of God. If I'm not coming to her for forgiveness when she's angry, begging, crying I'm not being a loving husband. So most of it really revolves around me being 'fixed'. She asked me why I think she needs therapy. I told her to work on emotional regulation which was something our last therapist was working with her on, not something I made up. Her response is ultimately a version of "you are the only one that gets me to that level so you need to stop doing that". 

She said she's not going to see a therapist herself. I told her I would be seeing one myself regardless.  I'm getting more and more into acceptance. I can't and won't change her, I have to figure out how to get and stay strong.

[Notwendy]

My take on molehills turning into mountains is that if there's emotional distress, for someone with BPD- they don't see this as being a part of them,  but as being caused by something external. The emotional discomfort may not have anything to do with something outside of them, but if it's there, then something external will become the "reason". Likewise - they also look at external things that will "fix" the discomfort, even if it isn't the cause. The two psychological phenomena that account for this are projection and denial.

In the moment, it was you pulling your hand away but if it wasn't that, it would be that you fell back asleep, or had to get up and use the bathroom, or you were cold and pulled the blankets over yourself. This is her internal feelings being perceived as something outside herself.

In a similar manner, she doesn't perceive herself as needing therapy.  Since her feelings are projected on to something external- you must be the problem, not her. When she says you are the only one that gets her to this point, she's also correct because- BPD affects the most intimate partner the most. It' not you personally- it's that you are her intimate partner. However, you aren't the only relationship affected by BPD. BPD affects all relationships but the closer ones the most.

For therapy to be effective, the person needs to be able to perceive the actual issues. It's been said that some people with BPD respond to therapy- and since it's a spectrum, I assume there people accept they have BPD and are willing to work on that. But no matter what the reason, I don't see how therapy can work with someone who can not perceive themselves as having something they need to work on.

My BPD mother doesn't seem to be able to see her part in relationship issues. So for her, if there's an issue, she truly believes she is the victim of someone else's behavior and it is their fault. Talking about it does not work for her. She can not perceive it.

However, therapy can help you, and anyone who is dealing with a person with BPD because, it can provide support and also help with changing behaviors that may be enabling the disorder.