Should you ever contact your BPD spouse's therapist?

[campbembpd]

Long story short - my uBPDw also is an alcoholic. She drinks heavily and is prone to bad emotional rages, threats and has escalated to some physical behaviors recently.

She doesn't take really any personal responsibility (i.e. it's my fault for making her do x,y, or z) but she does have moments of clarity. She says things like she knows she drinks too much and needs to cut down. She's said a couple times that she wonders if she's chemically imbalanced. I'm not holding my breath too much but she has made an appointment to see a psychiatrist. When she first called and she reported (under-reported) that she drank 2-3 glasses of wine a night they told her she should be in inpatient care. She balked at that but still wants to see a psychiatrist.

I met with my therapist today and told her I wish that my wife's psychiatrist would request to speak with me. It's frustrating to think my wife will go get care but I know she won't be fully honest about most things - drinking, her long term patterns of abusive behavior, etc.

My therapist said one thing I could do was reach out and send my wife's psych an email or ask if I could speak to them over the phone. They don't have to provide me any info about my wife but they could listen to me, that wouldn't violate HIPPA or anything if it was one way. Has anyone done anything like that? My main worry is if my wife found out. She's probably stop and never go back to see a psych plus I would deal with another possible rage episode for days and ongoing recurring blame and future episodes.

Mind you the situation is becoming pretty untenable so I'm getting to the point of what do I really have to lose? I'm reaching the end of what I can do and what the relationship and I can tolerate. Nothing will change as I see if she doesn't stop or significantly reduced drinking permanently. There will still be BPD  to take care of but the alcohol has to be dealt with first. If she doesn't get treatment I'm planning to proceed with some hard boundaries which will include not being around when she's drinking and may include a separation or divorce. But I am re-looking for an attorney to consult with before I do anything.

Just curious what others think.

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[EyesUp]

My ex was voluntarily taken for observation after she threatened self-harm during a session with a marriage counselor.  The counselor called 911.

While my ex was hospitalized, I had a chance to speak with her individual therapist, and also to connect the therapist with the marriage counselor who made the call...  Nothing good came from this.

Like your situation, my ex was not a reliable narrator and had shared a radically different version of events with her T.   While the T was interested to speak with me, she naturally remained in service to her client - my ex - and told my ex that we spoke - which was subsequently re-framed as me "trying to win" rather than as a natural outcome my ex's behaviors that led to her hospitalization...

What's driving the desire to connect with your W's T?  What's the desired outcome?  Are you hoping something will somehow change?  "If only someone else could a, b, c?" - it's not impossible, but I think you know:  It's a long shot.  And taking this action could have the opposite of the desired effect.

Ultimately, you know your W.  How do you think she would react if she knew you reached out to her T?  Would she appreciate it? 

[Notwendy]

Is this a new therapist? I think it's best to let the psychiatrist connect with your wife and form a relationship with her, without other input. If they are experienced with alcohol addiction, BPD, it may take a while but they will be able to see that what she tells them isn't the whole story. They also know that if they directly confront her with her issues, they won't get anywhere, so they may go at them gently. Be prepared for diagnoses such as "anxiety" rather than BPD because that is possibly more effective to work with - and with the same approach for both.

From the CODA perspective, to call her T is to overstep a boundary, trying to work on her issues, not staying focused on your own work.

Therapists can only do what the person is able to let them do. It's good your wife is seeking out one but how affective it will be is in part, up to her.

My own opinion is to not do this.

[zachira]

It really depends on the therapist how it will be handled. The therapist cannot legally give you any information about your wife's care unless your wife gives permission. The therapist can get information from you. Not all therapists believe everything their client tells them and others do.

[campbembpd]

Thank you! It’s strange because I wanted to call jn a way to influence things but I think I knew that it was codependent behavior… I guess I’m feeling desperate more and more. That I want to exhaust everything I can possibly do.

[zachira]

I think you are being hard on yourself calling this codependent behavior. When dealing with a person who is doing a smear campaign and who impacts your life significantly like a spouse, it can really make a difference to speak up at the right times and to the right people. Otherwise, the smear campaign goes unanswered and people that matter only have the version of events from the disordered person doing the smearing. I am the scapegoat of a large family with many disordered members. So many times even now, people are suddenly giving me dirty looks and accusing me of things when there is nothing that has happened between us, and they have become the flying monkeys, the enablers of the smear campaign of the disordered person. Clearly you have to know when and how to speak up. It can help if the therapist hears your side of the story. Do not let your discomfort or fears prevent you from contacting your wife's therapist. It may be helpful or not go well. You can probably tell how much to share with the therapist by monitoring their responses when you reach out to them and adjusting what you say according to how you are being treated.

[Notwendy]

 Nothing will change as I see if she doesn't stop or significantly reduced drinking permanently. There will still be BPD  to take care of but the alcohol has to be dealt with first.

I think it's the opposite- the drinking is self medicating for BPD. My BPD mother drank and as a teen, I thought the issue was alcoholism, and later she over used other medications, anxiety and pain medicines.

All addictions are a form of escaping painful feelings. In addition, there's physical addiction to the actual substance but both are driving the drinking. BPD mother drank to escape her feelings. When she was drinking, she raged. The alcohol lowers inhibition and then the raging is the result of the emotions.

BPD mother did go thought a detox program. She signed herself out AMA and didn't go to follow up appointments. This left her unmedicated. Her suffering from her emotions was intense. Her anxiety is over the top. In terms of quality of life, being unmedicated for her is unbearable. So after seeing this, I suggested she see a psychiatrist to help her with the right medicine to help her cope. Even with medicine, she had a rough time with anxiety.

Being in CODA and ACA groups, I know that some of the members are recovered alcoholics and addicts. Yes, the first part was to manage the physical addiction, but then, they were left with their emotions to deal with, the ones they used alcohol to escape from, and for some it was co-dependency and family issues. 12 steps isn't a solution for BPD. It can help family members.

I agree that one has to start somewhere but where? For your wife to stop drinking and then be faced with her feelings that the drinking helped escape from, may be difficult for her as a long term solution. It is good that she is seeing a psychiatrist as they are experienced in using medication for symptoms. They are not going to mix them with alcohol but they may be able to help her decrease her drinking if while using something to address her feelings and symptoms. She will need to feel they are "on her side" and support her. Yes, she may say untrue things about you, but this isn't about you, this is about her. First, she has to feel safe with them and this may mean letting her vent to them.

Your boundaries are to stay on your side of the fence, with your own situation. I think it's reasonable to have boundaries about abusive behavior, destruction of property. It is possible she won't stop drinking and you may not be able to continue your relationship with her. Or possibly the psychiatrist can help her to stop drinking and get into therapy. You could try talking to him if you feel you need to, but it may be better for him to make his own impression of your wife and her issues. But she's drinking for a reason and underneath that reason is probably the feelings she's trying to deal with due to her BPD.

[EyesUp]

That I want to exhaust everything I can possibly do.

I can relate to this - that's how I felt.  In my case, in retrospect, I was addicted to hopium.  I'm not saying that's what's going on with you - however there came a point where I broke the cycle and realized the thing I hadn't tried was pushing my own boundaries about what was acceptable - or possible.  I was so adamantly opposed to divorce that I hadn't really, truly  considered it.  In fact, I was avoidant.  When I allowed myself to consider new options, it was a revelation.

"New ideas" does not mean doing a 180 and suddenly embracing divorce.  It just means focusing on what you can change in yourself - rather than changing someone else.

Does that make sense?

[campbembpd]

I can relate to this - that's how I felt.  In my case, in retrospect, I was addicted to hopium.  I'm not saying that's what's going on with you - however there came a point where I broke the cycle and realized the thing I hadn't tried was pushing my own boundaries about what was acceptable - or possible.  I was so adamantly opposed to divorce that I hadn't really, truly  considered it.  In fact, I was avoidant.  When I allowed myself to consider new options, it was a revelation.

"New ideas" does not mean doing a 180 and suddenly embracing divorce.  It just means focusing on what you can change in yourself - rather than changing someone else.

Does that make sense?

This makes perfect sense. I feel like I'm getting to this place of I guess 'real' acceptance. I laughed out loud when you typed 'hopium'. That sums it up.  I have been so 1000% opposed to divorce, no matter what. Kept hoping hoping hoping that the next blow up she would really see what she was doing. If I found the right words she would snap out of it. 

I'm the same - I'm not looking for or embracing divorce at all. I still have some hope but am fully committed to taking new actions. Nothing I've done has made any difference. If divorce is a consequence of not accepting abusive behavior then so be it. I will do a lot still, I will stand by her as much as I can and still provide opportunity to see if we can work this. But it will be with boundaries. I am not going to spend my life being a doormat and a punching bag. It's not going to happen overnight but I am going to have to draw some lines about what I am willing to accept and not accept. It will be starting to do the thing she hates the most which is walk away when she's raging.

[campbembpd]

I think it's the opposite- the drinking is self medicating for BPD. My BPD mother drank and as a teen, I thought the issue was alcoholism, and later she over used other medications, anxiety and pain medicines.

All addictions are a form of escaping painful feelings. In addition, there's physical addiction to the actual substance but both are driving the drinking. BPD mother drank to escape her feelings. When she was drinking, she raged. The alcohol lowers inhibition and then the raging is the result of the emotions.

BPD mother did go thought a detox program. She signed herself out AMA and didn't go to follow up appointments. This left her unmedicated. Her suffering from her emotions was intense. Her anxiety is over the top. In terms of quality of life, being unmedicated for her is unbearable. So after seeing this, I suggested she see a psychiatrist to help her with the right medicine to help her cope. Even with medicine, she had a rough time with anxiety.

Being in CODA and ACA groups, I know that some of the members are recovered alcoholics and addicts. Yes, the first part was to manage the physical addiction, but then, they were left with their emotions to deal with, the ones they used alcohol to escape from, and for some it was co-dependency and family issues. 12 steps isn't a solution for BPD. It can help family members.

I agree that one has to start somewhere but where? For your wife to stop drinking and then be faced with her feelings that the drinking helped escape from, may be difficult for her as a long term solution. It is good that she is seeing a psychiatrist as they are experienced in using medication for symptoms. They are not going to mix them with alcohol but they may be able to help her decrease her drinking if while using something to address her feelings and symptoms. She will need to feel they are "on her side" and support her. Yes, she may say untrue things about you, but this isn't about you, this is about her. First, she has to feel safe with them and this may mean letting her vent to them.

Your boundaries are to stay on your side of the fence, with your own situation. I think it's reasonable to have boundaries about abusive behavior, destruction of property. It is possible she won't stop drinking and you may not be able to continue your relationship with her. Or possibly the psychiatrist can help her to stop drinking and get into therapy. You could try talking to him if you feel you need to, but it may be better for him to make his own impression of your wife and her issues. But she's drinking for a reason and underneath that reason is probably the feelings she's trying to deal with due to her BPD.

Interesting perspective. You're absolutely right she does this for pain management. She's had numerous physical 'issues' since almost we met. She's been on pain meds off and on and admitted to using alcohol to self medicate (she's also on a daily benzo) - mostly for physical pain but for dealing with the pain/stress of daily life. She's said she drinks because her life is SO stressful (because of me, because of our special needs son and our daughter as well who has had so many issues) so that fits.

I guess we'll see what the therapist and psych says. I believe she met with a therapist yesterday, wasn't a psych. She didn't talk about it so I didn't ask, I'm going to let her tell me about it if she wants to. The only thing I know is I overheard her talking to her mother after her appt and my wife made a statement that the therapist couldn't believe how terrible she (my wife) is being treated after 25 years of marriage. I can only imagine what she told her.

So it's going 100% how I imagined it would go, I mean it's only 1 session but... I don't hold much hope they'll get to the bottom of her true self and anything will come of it. If my wife tells her tales there won't be any balance and I will look like the 'bad one'. I don't think she will be honest about much of anything, from her drinking to her overt and covert abusive behavior. Everything will be twisted and justified (like it is when she talks to me or others) grains of truth covered in exaggerations wrapped in lies, or no grain of truth at all. I think this is my fear and why I considered talking to her therapist - the people she talks to will believe what she tells them at face value (why would they believe or think any different? She's a poor mistreated woman and she doesn't really drink all that much at all) sympathize with her and reinforce her distortions. I guess my hope was that therapy or a psych would help her and I think I worry it will do the opposite and reinforce her false perceptions and make her double down on me making changes 'or else'. Or the therapist will encourage her to leave the marriage. I'm accepting the relationship might end but it would be sad if it was expedited due to that instead of her actually getting help and saving the marriage. 

[Notwendy]

BPD mother did have some mental health care- but like you said, she would speak from victim perspective, but that was her true perspective. It's how she processed. But even if they did see past what she told them, if they were to say "BPD" she'd probably leave. Since there isn't any medicine specific to BPD, the best they can do is treat the anxiety and depression. Someone would have to be motivated to do therapy for BPD.

Although I have empathy for her struggles, the other aspect is that I had to have boundaries about her behavior- for myself, my family. Without boundaries, your wife's behavior is likely to continue as it is. How she will respond to your changed responses - one can not know- but only though doing something different will there be a chance for another outcome.

[EyesUp]

I'm the same - I'm not looking for or embracing divorce at all. I still have some hope but am fully committed to taking new actions. Nothing I've done has made any difference.

I've often posted here that I came to understand that "radical acceptance" does not mean accepting an abusive or otherwise disordered partner - rather, it's about accepting yourself.

One of the things that really helped me: 

After speaking with a dozen attys (who told me to prepare for the worst) and multiple therapists (who listened patiently, attentively, but rarely offered anything... constructive), I spoke with the detective who was assigned when my uBPDxw became disregulated and 911 was called by our marriage counselor...  the detective was the first person who said straight up/no filter:  They see a lot of cases - very, very, very few get better.  The female detective advised me to take care and look after my own interests.  This was eye opening - I assumed that I would be framed as the abusive husband.

Sure enough, my uBPDxw responded to the 911 call by saying that the counselor and I set her up...   

It got to the point where it didn't really matter "why" - it only mattered "what" - I was no longer trying to figure out if her emotions or perceptions were valid or not, or what I could do about it - I started to prioritize my own sanity, emotions, perceptions - and safety. 

I was able to have more productive and focused discussions with prospective attys from that point.