If not JADE then what?

[Me88]

I'm trying to learn to deal with difficult people and I cannot help but JADE when something is so outlandish.

During a massive argument, crazy accusations and made up stories, assigning of intent to my actions and words.
    Me: What, no way. That never happened, in fact you're the one that said that. That's garbage.
    Her: did you just call me garbage? seriously? wow, no one has ever talked to me like that
    Me: No I don't think you're garbage, I think that's a garbage argument.
    Her: This is character assassination! you're abusive!
    Me: I never called you garbage.........continue arguing this for an hour, I finally blow up. "ok, let's end this. You're garbage.
            Trash. A whole dumpster. Happy now? Might as well do the thing I'm in trouble for"

Yes, I handled that wrong. But gosh, some of the things she'd say just DIDN'T happen. Or SHE did them, then 5 minutes later says I did. I'd tell her it was like being in the twilight zone. If someone continues and continues to push a false narrative, demands you admit it, and apologize how do you work around that? Then that lie becomes a reality they can use in future fights.

Or 1 single thing goes wrong. That I didn't even know was an expectation. No communication about it. She was at her mom's me at my parents. No time to come back home, she didn't tell me that she was going home or got there. As soon as she asked me where I was I left my parents house to find her crying on the floor with her cats. I'm yelled at for hours. Again, I defend myself:

We were both at our parents with no time constraints or plans.
You're dealing with a family death, I'm not going to ask you a million questions.
You didn't tell me you were coming home.

Now I get to hear how I don't support her. I'm never there for her. I'm not a reliable partner. I'm selfish. I 'should' have known and made sure I was home...(when? who knows). She's never been able to rely on me when she needs me most. WTF?

I begin to calmly list out just how available and reliable I am. I can't accept that I'm this avoidant bf that is always out doing random things and not paying attention to her needs. Again, I'm gaslighting her, denying her reality, dismissive, no accountability. These things are not true and she NEEDED me to agree, accept it, repeat to her what I did wrong, tell her how I will not allow myself to behave like this in the future. Could never agree to disagree. And every single issue came up in every fight. Nothing was ever moved on from even if we agreed we discussed it thoroughly.

When the only alternative to JADE is to accept their reality as the only truth, you just become and start believing you're a monster.

[Me88]

on a side note, no outside person truly believes you can have a 6 hr argument with someone full of screaming and cursing and things being slammed around. You truly have to live it with someone like this to believe it's possible. Leaves you truly functionally 'dead'. Only to wake up the next day to sex and like nothing happened.

[try2heal]

Exactly.
I've been out of the relationship for 9 months now, and I still have some of those awful things he told me about myself pop up.

[try2heal]

Kept awake, chased around the house, yelled at. Fake police call, fake call to my ex-husband..... All for the 3am "thank you, I love you, I can't go to sleep before we work these things out. This is what love is." Glorious morning, but on a hair trigger for the next 24 hours.

[Me88]

All of these stories are familiar.

Although I will say I'm guilty of following her around during arguments. I'd sit there, calmly, patient, take the abuse. Then it would boil up and I'd start to 'JADE' per usual...I'd make a really good point she had no rebuttal to. She'd yell more and say 'you know what I'm not doing this, you can't take accountability'. And then she'd storm off to our room or bathroom and I'd follow and say 'nope, you're not running away. you started this, you wanted to argue. Well I'm ready now. Let's settle this'.

Probably not good, and it became one of her 'boundaries'...she gets me to 100mph and then decides...ARGUMENT OVER and I'm not allowed to talk about anything until she's ready the next week to rehash it all with no change. She could turn it off easily and smile. And I'm there worked up. The last 6 months dating her I did get better and I'd often walk away first when I realized she was entering a rage and I'd tell her we needed a break since things seemed to be getting a little too emotional. She would thank me for that at times.

[Under The Bridge]

I totally feel what you're going through..I had exactly the same thing in my 4 years with a BPD. The script can run to ridiculous levels and reminds me of the Monty Python 'Argument' sketch, where everything you actually say is contradicted, denied and twisted to make you the villain.

I often think the Oxford Dictionary definition of 'Unpredictable' should simply be 'A person suffering from BPD'. It's most nerve-wracking and draining waiting for the next thing to set them off.. and it always comes.

As I'd never heard of BPD before and the tactics you can use, I responded as you did, pointing out how wrong she was and that I never did / said the things she accused me of but even that was ineffective as her habit was to cut off after her outburst and just vanish for weeks ( we didn't live together). Presumably in her mind she was' punishing' me by her absence but in the end it became a source of relief to me when she wasn't there. The bad times now outweighed any good times we might have.

That's when I finally ended it because it was a cycle I didn't want to be on for life.

As you say, you can end up believing you're the problem but hopefully the light eventually dawns and you realise you aren't.

[Me88]

I totally feel what you're going through..I had exactly the same thing in my 4 years with a BPD. The script can run to ridiculous levels and reminds me of the Monty Python 'Argument' sketch, where everything you actually say is contradicted, denied and twisted to make you the villain.

I often think the Oxford Dictionary definition of 'Unpredictable' should simply be 'A person suffering from BPD'. It's most nerve-wracking and draining waiting for the next thing to set them off.. and it always comes.

As I'd never heard of BPD before and the tactics you can use, I responded as you did, pointing out how wrong she was and that I never did / said the things she accused me of but even that was ineffective as her habit was to cut off after her outburst and just vanish for weeks ( we didn't live together). Presumably in her mind she was' punishing' me by her absence but in the end it became a source of relief to me when she wasn't there. The bad times now outweighed any good times we might have.

That's when I finally ended it because it was a cycle I didn't want to be on for life.

As you say, you can end up believing you're the problem but hopefully the light eventually dawns and you realise you aren't.

To be honest, part of me did. And maybe that's good. It caused me to reflect and work on and identify other things I could do better. I really got good at the whole 'what you're saying is you're feeling 'x' and this is because of 'y' '. Arguing in this bullet point fashion got tiring though. And it is just like the Monty Python sketch. What I hated was at times, I'd take the bait. I have a ton of patience, as she'd tell me I was the most patient man she's ever known. But you can only take so much verbal abuse until you too act that way, I regret that a lot. But also a small part of me is happy I stood up for myself...albeit incorrectly. I never hit anyone, I never threw anything, slammed doors, kicked things. I did use some very personal things against her though, while hurtful were true.

Are there really no argument tactics to use with someone who constantly makes you the villain and them the victim regardless of what is said or happened? This might be why most forums and subreddits say the only answer is to leave. And that DBT and therapy only work if the person identifies they have this problem, and even then the symptoms only improve yet do not disappear as it is a personality disorder.

[kells76]

The circular arguments you describe sound like they were incredibly depleting for you; hours of your life and energy just going around and around in conflict, with no resolution. I hope that your mind and body and psyche are regaining some strength and health, now that you're getting a break from that kind of conflict and some time to recover.

We're all here because we suspect that the person in our life has BPD, which is a significantly impairing mental illness. We didn't join a group for "slightly difficult persons" or "when someone argues with you occasionally". Something about this person in our life led us to believe -- this is out of the ordinary.

I bring that up because I think it can be easy to slip into "yeah, I think it's BPD, but why won't she agree with my points?"

That makes it an us problem -- with how we're thinking about the situation. BPD stands for Borderline Personality Disorder which is a pervasive, 100% of the time mental illness. If I start thinking "yeah, but sometimes she seems normal", then I haven't really understood mental illness.

If there were a man on the sidewalk ranting at the sky, and you walked by and he said "you're insane, you aren't here, and stop staring at me", would you be trying to find the perfect argument tactic?

If we think that tactics, strategy, logic, the perfect argument structure, bullet points, better organization of thoughts, syllogisms, or irrefutable facts are what are needed in this situation, then again, it's an us problem, not a them problem, because we've not accurately assessed the issue.

The issue isn't an issue of "he just misunderstood the facts, and once I clearly present the facts to him, he will change his mind". Lack of accurate information is not the problem.

Mental illness seriously impacts an individual's thinking and perception, and experience of the world and of others. We may need to step back out of the situation to assess our own goals and feelings in order to find an effective way forward: take an "us" focus, not a "them" focus, in a way.

With the "man on the sidewalk" example, it'd probably be easier for all of us to realize: my goal is to walk home, and there's no relationship between what he's asserting and who I am. I don't need to "correct" his thinking in order to move on with my life; I know who I am (I'm here and I'm not insane and I wasn't staring at him), and spending hours of my time "convincing" him to "think about me correctly" won't heal his mental illness or help me with my goal.

There's no emotional connection or attachment there, which is why it'd be so much easier to step back and have that neutral assessment with him, vs with a loved one or partner.

When it's a partner, the stakes feel higher. Of course we want our loved ones to think well of us, to generally see us the way we see ourselves, to be kind to us, not to attribute negative or hurtful motives to us.

I think you phrased it really accurately here, as "bait":

What I hated was at times, I'd take the bait. I have a ton of patience, as she'd tell me I was the most patient man she's ever known. But you can only take so much verbal abuse until you too act that way, I regret that a lot. But also a small part of me is happy I stood up for myself...albeit incorrectly. I never hit anyone, I never threw anything, slammed doors, kicked things. I did use some very personal things against her though, while hurtful were true.

Again, the issue (in a certain sense) isn't them making wild accusations...

what is under our control is: why does that bait on the hook look sooooo delicious to me? Why do I feel like I "can't resist" biting? What do I think I'll gain if I nibble that morsel one more time? Why do I continue to believe that when my partner, who I believe has the serious mental health issue of BPD, is dysregulating, that I can control the interaction if I just had the right tactic?

I wonder if digging into why the bait looked so "tasty" could, indirectly, help you answer the question of "so what do we do in circular arguments"...

...

None of this is to say who's right and who's wrong, who is 100% at fault and who is 0% at fault. I think it goes without saying that BPD rage and dysregulation are incredibly harmful in close relationships and the damage isn't mitigated by the fact that it's also a mental illness. A person may not entirely "intend" (whatever that means) to be hurtful and yet the hurt inflicted remains the same; it's not like someone saying "I didn't mean to break your arm" unbreaks it.

So I also think you expressed yourself well here:

To be honest, part of me did. And maybe that's good. It caused me to reflect and work on and identify other things I could do better. I really got good at the whole 'what you're saying is you're feeling 'x' and this is because of 'y' '.

There's really a balance, that we try to find here, between "it's all your fault, you should've just 'managed' things better" and "it's totally not your fault, she's so disordered, nothing you could've done".

pwBPD are disordered and there's not nothing we can do. Balance 

We can both work on ourselves and find healthier tools and skills (and you deserve kudos for your commitment to doing that), and have that not be enough to save a relationship.

...

Are there really no argument tactics to use with someone who constantly makes you the villain and them the victim regardless of what is said or happened? This might be why most forums and subreddits say the only answer is to leave. And that DBT and therapy only work if the person identifies they have this problem, and even then the symptoms only improve yet do not disappear as it is a personality disorder.

A person with mental illness may remain committed to their own inner experience regardless of being presented with airtight facts. (A very helpful book that touches on that idea is    
I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help! by Xavier Amador, PhD -- strongly recommended)

Trying to find a "more airtight" way to "get through" is us beating our head against a brick wall and not choosing a different direction to walk, then wondering "why does my head hurt".

Again, finding some balance: I don't think the answer is "stay, suck it up, and just say 'yes dear' to everything", and I don't think the answer is "ditch them as soon as you can and don't look back".

I'm thinking that within a BPD relationship, there may need to be some more "in and out" with the partners than in a "generally normal" relationship. What I mean by that is that the non partner may need to get pretty skilled at remaining present (in the conversation, in the same room, etc) when the pwBPD is generally regulated/not abusive and when the non has the resources to remain validating, and choosing to exit (the room, the conversation) upon recognizing that dysregulation is getting to a harmful level (abusive, circular arguing, false accusations, etc).

Relying on the partner with mental illness to be in the driver's seat of conflict is a losing game. Trying to "convince them" with tactics is a losing game. The winning game is becoming an active choicemaker ourselves, deciding on our own rules for our own lives, not waiting for a disordered partner to believe us/act nondisordered, leaning into the relationship when it's positive and lovingly protecting ourselves during the BPD storms by not sticking around (in the room, in the conversation, etc) to be raged at.

Of course, each pwBPD is different. This general approach might not work for everyone; some pwBPD also have other mental health challenges, or substance abuse issues, or other traits that make the relationship unlivable. I don't want this to turn into "just do this approach and the relationship would have worked"; it might not have.

I think it's more to keep the dialog going with this great discussion you brought up, of -- so is there really nothing besides "JADE-ing" you can do in circular/prolonged arguments.

[Me88]

Great response. And yes, as circular as it gets. With everything, literally almost 95% of each issue being my fault in some way. It made no sense. And yes, I remember one of the last arguments, 6hrs. At that point I had to call it, vision blurring, I didn't even know what I was talking about anymore. And somehow the next day, sex and just fine. I never understood. It is a relief not living through that anymore.

She shared she had diagnosed depression, ADHD, Anxiety, prescribed medications for pain and migraines, horrible sleep and recently got a C-pap. She also used THC every day in high amounts, which I've learned is a definite 'no go' when on psych meds. She was just all over the place when she was awake, and other than that would sleep all day. Yes sometimes she did seem normal. We had so many amazing times, and I could never pinpoint what in my behavior changed to make her happy or loving. I'd even tell her that. She'd make requests and I'd change things. That same changed 'better' behavior would be what set her off the next time.

I'm unsure what she actually believed, and what she thought she could continue to argue in an attempt to make me give in and accept it all.

The bait to me would be just so out of the blue. Something I didn't even know happened, and apparently didn't upset her in the moment. She'd admit that. '4 days ago you said/did xyz. The more I think on it, it's really a big deal'. And it could have been as simple as me playing music she didn't like, and me controlling our music, which isn't true I'd always ask what she wanted to listen. That turned into her yelling and cursing at me. I just imagined if I could lay out things point by point, and ask if she agreed that those things happened and nothing was left out, it could help her see that it was an unnecessary fight to have.

And baiting by attacking me as a person always hurt. 'I can't count on you. You're never here for me, support me. I've never felt so alone in a relationship etc.' Those are all so untrue. I'd rub her head nightly for migraines, massage her aching body, take off of work if she was sick and get her food/soup. Drive her to dentist appointments and hold her hand as she was scared of needles. I'd inject her medication for her. Every time she had a hard day at work I'd let her vent, sympathize with her and take her to dinner or a movie. I was always there for her, and for someone to just write all of that off got to me so I felt I needed to remind her, in which she said don't do it anymore if I was going to hold it over her head...but that wasn't my intent at all. Just to prove how much I love and cared for her.

She wasn't 100% in the wrong all of the time, but I never entered arguments with yelling and name calling ever. There were times I would resort to that and match the energy, which is stupid.

I did get good at hearing her concerns when she would talk calm. But when it started taking that turn, I'd defend myself. Towards the end, I'd say the last 4-6 months I could see her demeanor change, pupils dilate and her start talking faster and throwing in curse words. I'd tell her 'this seems to be getting a bit intense for us. Let's take a 15-20 minute break and try again later or tomorrow' and I'd go to the living room and recline. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes she'd apologize. I'd tell I had nothing left to say and would verify that she got everything out and felt like we had dealt with the issue and would take that work moving forward to be better. She'd agree. Yet the next argument was just a list of every problem, argument or something I had done. I'd tell her we agreed it was taken care of and I'd get the whole 'I've just been thinking about all of the things you do and it gets me mad all over again'. I was fully ok moving on and forgiving her for some really bad things, like punching me. If I stay, it means I have forgiven and won't bring it up again. And I didn't.

I didn't necessarily want her in the drivers seat, but anytime I tried to steer she'd say I was controlling her. Or deflecting. Dismissing her or denying her reality.

It's still all so confusing. My therapist says I'll never really get any answers as she had her own issues that I couldn't see or experience. I'm trying to apply what is considered a healthy person's actions and mentality on someone who is sick.

[Me88]

I'm unsure of a diagnosis. But she has been in therapy for years. Had a rocky childhood. Mom cheating, bankrupting them, father never really involved.

She did have a therapy workbook, but I never looked at it or asked questions. Maybe I should have. Maybe it was a dbt workbook. All I can say is that the emotional regulation was fully absent. And rages were constant. She meets all the 9 criteria. I'm not a psychiatrist, but something was absolutely present. It was too 'crazy' for there not to be an issue.

[Under The Bridge]

Even the most patient and understanding of us will crack and start defending ourselves - it's so frustrating when we see things with clear logic but just can't get it through to out BPD partner, who sees things with no logic whatsoever.

In my 4 years relationship she never apologised once, or even came near to it. She was the 'victim' 100% of the time and the world was always the one at fault. Unlike some BPD who can keep their condition from family and friends, she had the same conflicts with them and they were always the guilty ones too in her eyes.  It made it even harder for me as, if she'd had an argument with her mother or a bad day at work, then she'd take it out on me.

She was a fantastic pool player and I used to enjoy watching her play but eventually someone would beat her and that usually triggered an outburst - naturally towards me even though I wasn't the one that beat her. It got so ridiculous at times - your g/f breaking up with you because she lost a game of pool!

Unlike the long arguments you and your partner had, she simply had her BPD episode then always immediately walked away (and stayed away for weeks), so I never got the chance to use any kind of defusing tactic. Her method was always to 'hit and run'. I'd only see her again when she was ready to come back into our local bar where we hung out.

I'm still not convinced her condition was totally BPD though; I think she would have been a difficult person even without it and this just magnified her BPD actions. Looking back, I don't think any kind of coping tactic I used would have changed her one bit.

[PeteWitsend]

...

During a massive argument, crazy accusations and made up stories, assigning of intent to my actions and words.
    Me: What, no way. That never happened, in fact you're the one that said that. That's garbage.
    Her: did you just call me garbage? seriously? wow, no one has ever talked to me like that
    Me: No I don't think you're garbage, I think that's a garbage argument.
    Her: This is character assassination! you're abusive!
    Me: I never called you garbage.........continue arguing this for an hour, I finally blow up. "ok, let's end this. You're garbage.
            Trash. A whole dumpster. Happy now? Might as well do the thing I'm in trouble for"

...

Man, oh man.  Reading this is painful and brings back bad memories.  I am glad I am not with BPDxw anymore.  Just the once or twice a month I get some unhinged text or email about our daughter is more than enough crazy for me. 

When the only alternative to JADE is to accept their reality as the only truth, you just become and start believing you're a monster.

You don't have to accept their reality; you can redirect the argument into oblivion, which works sometimes.  Either way, it's better than going in circles for 6 hours.

I know it's hard, because, like you, I'd fall into the trap of wanting to say "OK FINE, YOU ARE TRASH." but you have to remember your better nature here, and maybe mentally tell yourself "This awful person is trying to drag me down to her level, and regardless of what is said or done, I'm not going to let that happen." 

But again: remember your better nature.  One trick that may help is to ask them to clarify their insane comments, or repeat them.  It can really take the wind out of their sails.  Sometimes when they say something for shock value, just asking them to repeat it underscores how absurd they're being, and defuses the situation, as even they realize how ridiculous they sound.

Or if it doesn't end that easy, you can try to direct the conversation into getting them to admit the insane thing they just said, whereupon the whole thing could kinda just end on that note, as the discussion diffuses their anger.

So, for example:

You: "We're going in circles now, and that argument you just made is garbage."
Her: "Oh you think I'm garbage?"
You: "Just a minute.  I said your argument was garbage, and you think that means I think you, yourself are garbage?  How could you make that leap there?  Do you understand the difference between me saying your argument is garbage and saying you are garbage?"

Now, you can get her talking about this, and she won't like it, and may drop the whole thing out of frustration, since she's lost that "righteous anger" and finds herself trying to explain her understanding of the English language (which is boring!), instead of her raging at you for "insulting her," and defuse the whole thing. 

Or she could get frustrated with you trying to pin her thought process down like that, and storm off (which may not be the perfect result, but it does at least temporarily end the argument, and she might calm down by the time she comes back into the room.)  That would sometimes work with BPDxw.

Remember that you're not going to win an argument with someone who has a disordered thought process like that, and perceives the world through that same disorder.  You can however, redirect the anger away from you, or into something more harmless. 

I know as a logical person it can be hard to let go of the fact that they said something not only wrong, but often impossible, or are just projecting their own behavior on you, but you have to let go.  Forget the argument underlying the fight and take another tack here, knowing that there was no merit to it to begin with. 

This won't always work, but it may work sometimes, and that's better than getting into a six+ hour long circular argument every time.

[PeteWitsend]

To add: there's some nuance to it that may seem insignificant, but it does matter.  Focus on their thoughts; take the conversation up a level. 

Instead of arguing, "I didn't say X, I said Y" and then her predictably escalating that with something like "Oh, so you're calling me A LIAR now?" focus on her thought process. 

So, "When I said X and you claimed I said Y, what were you thinking?  Did you hear me correctly?  It sounds like you misunderstood me."

Maybe it will help, maybe not.  Maybe it will work sometimes.  But it's better than JADEing, which just goes in circles.

Good luck! 

Another option is the whole "listening with empathy" thing, and reassuring them.

Example: I remember one time BPDxw basically ambushed me as I walked in the door from work "Your mom was very insulting to me today."

Now... this was her pet project, picking fights with my poor mom, and then screeching I was never "on her side" or would never "put her first" if I did anything other than agree my mom was a horrible, mean person who's sole purpose in life was to attack BPDxw.  So, without even knowing the story, I said "oh, I'm sorry, but I love you and nothing my mom did or said could change that."  She said "thank you for reassuring me.  it means a lot."  And then she hugged me and didn't say another word about it.

What did my mom actually do?  I went and looked up BPDxw's phone later.  She didn't respond soon enough to a question BPDxw texted her.  My mom was at work (she was a newspaper editor) and busy, and didn't respond to BPDxw for two hours during the day, while BPDxw was sitting on her A__ at home, lobbing text bombs at people working, and getting enraged when she didn't get a response as soon as she demanded it.

That she was being unreasonable would have been clear as day to every sane person on the planet, but there was ZERO chance I could have ever convinced BPDxw of that.  Sometimes, I knew better than to try.  This was one of those times. 

[kells76]

Great discussion.

There's a related thread on the Son/Daughter board that has helpful info:

Why JADEing and reasoning don't work

This section is important for understanding the biological basis for why rational approaches are not effective:

So many of us have expressed frustration that reasoning and logic don't seem to apply. 

When we try to apply logic or reason with someone, we are JADEing (Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining).  Reasoning is just that: giving or applying reasons.  Most reasons are explanations, defenses, or justifications etc.

When we can't respond with those tools we often feel helpless and hopeless, as if we have nothing to defend ourselves. 

Think about it this way.  If you felt abused and traumatized by someone and they offered a reason for the abuse would it then be okay?

There is more to it.  In her book, Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder by Valerie Porr, MA she describes how there are two parts to the human brain.  The Pre-frontal Cortex which is responsible for rational thought, and the Amygdala which is responsible for emotional thought.  She goes on to say that in a normal healthy brain, the neurotransmitters are firing fairly evenly on both sides.  She also mentions that if you have ever met someone who is very cold and unemotional that their neurotransmitters are firing mostly on the prefrontal cortex.  Where does this idea come from?   It comes from actual MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) testing.  So, there is a biological explanation that might be helpful.  When our BPD loved one is dysregulated they cannot control the neurotransmitters that are firing only on the amygdala and completely avoiding the prefrontal cortex.  Without the prefrontal cortex there is no rational thought.

This goes back to it being an us problem, not a them problem (in a certain way of looking at it), if we both believe our person has BPD -- with everything it implies in terms of biology and mental illness -- and we continue to try approaches that don't take that into account.

This is a great example of that theory in action:

Another option is the whole "listening with empathy" thing, and reassuring them.

Example: I remember one time BPDxw basically ambushed me as I walked in the door from work "Your mom was very insulting to me today."

Now... this was her pet project, picking fights with my poor mom, and then screeching I was never "on her side" or would never "put her first" if I did anything other than agree my mom was a horrible, mean person who's sole purpose in life was to attack BPDxw.  So, without even knowing the story, I said "oh, I'm sorry, but I love you and nothing my mom did or said could change that."  She said "thank you for reassuring me.  it means a lot."  And then she hugged me and didn't say another word about it.

What did my mom actually do?  I went and looked up BPDxw's phone later.  She didn't respond soon enough to a question BPDxw texted her.  My mom was at work (she was a newspaper editor) and busy, and didn't respond to BPDxw for two hours during the day, while BPDxw was sitting on her A__ at home, lobbing text bombs at people working, and getting enraged when she didn't get a response as soon as she demanded it.

That she was being unreasonable would have been clear as day to every sane person on the planet, but there was ZERO chance I could have ever convinced BPDxw of that.  Sometimes, I knew better than to try.  This was one of those times. 

These relationships -- and, importantly, all our relationships, BPD or not -- aren't about convincing our partners with reason in high-emotion situations... it's about us speaking their language, understanding how to connect emotionally and authentically. I don't have BPD and neither does my husband, and I can promise you that it makes a huge difference to me if, when I'm emotionally wound up, his first approach is empathetic and validating, vs convincing me that how I feel is irrational/unreasonable. I am well aware that I have irrational and unreasonable feelings occasionally (we all do) and I need connection first (empathy, "it must be so hard to feel that way", etc) in order to return to baseline and have the capacity for rationality.

If you do hope for moments of rational connection with your pwBPD, it's on you to understand that emotional understanding/validation may have to come first.

I'll also repeat my caveat that each pwBPD is different, and some pwBPD are so impaired, or have other issues as well (addiction, etc), that this discussion isn't a promise of "oh, if you'd just authentically validated more, you could've saved things". Some relationships aren't livable.

It is, though, important to remember that if you're interested in healthier relationships in the future (and I think many members here on Detaching are), remaining fully in the "there was nothing I could've done, she was so irrational" stance hamstrings you from learning the relational tools and skills that will benefit you in your future intimate relationships.

Hardcore working through how to stop invalidating others could be a really good investment in your future relationships 

It'll be interesting to hear more analysis from the group about healthier, more effective ways (besides JADE-ing) to stop the cycle of circular arguments.

[PeteWitsend]

...
I'll also repeat my caveat that each pwBPD is different, and some pwBPD are so impaired, or have other issues as well (addiction, etc), that this discussion isn't a promise of "oh, if you'd just authentically validated more, you could've saved things". Some relationships aren't livable. ...

I'll add that in the example I gave, this was really hard for me to do because BPDxw was so obviously cruel and spiteful to my mom, and also me, whenever in her mind I demonstrated any sort of concern for my mom whatsoever. 

It was almost scary; like this wasn't just like a sitcom plot where "she doesn't like my mom"... it was more like "she actually wishes my mom was dead, doesn't want her to ever see our daughter, doesn't want me to have a relationship with my own mom, and will do and say anything to ruin this whole thing."

Looking back, I see her issue was jealousy and her own paranoid & unhinged fears that anyone else in my life - even my own mother - was a threat to our relationship.  I went along with some of her demands, and saw & spoke to my mom less, and she saw our daughter less, during these years, and in hindsight, I wish I hadn't, because it wasn't ultimately about my mom. I know if I cut my mom out of my life completely, as BPDxw was demanding, she would just move on to another demand, because the issue was entirely in BPDxw's head.

As you said above, some relationships just aren't liveable, and that was how this went.  In order to keep BPDxw "happy," i.e. not in shrieking fight mode, or making-a-scene-in-public mode, or not actively-insulting-and-attacking-my-family-members mode, I would have to give up too much of my own life and relationships with my family.  What was I getting in return?  An unhappy, insecure, ignorant, and abusive wife, and a lifetime of knuckling under to her demands, even at the cost of my own and our own daughter's future?  No thanks. 

It is, though, important to remember that if you're interested in healthier relationships in the future (and I think many members here on Detaching are), remaining fully in the "there was nothing I could've done, she was so irrational" stance hamstrings you from learning the relational tools and skills that will benefit you in your future intimate relationships.

Hardcore working through how to stop invalidating others could be a really good investment in your future relationships 

It'll be interesting to hear more analysis from the group about healthier, more effective ways (besides JADE-ing) to stop the cycle of circular arguments.

I agree with this, and the experience has benefitted me in other situations, like at work, when I recognize people who thrive on conflict and how to handle them, particularly how to be assertive without getting upset or escalating things when someone is pushing your buttons.  I had a hard time with that; I was either worried and afraid of opposing someone, or being pushed past my limit and exploding in anger. 

[PeteWitsend]

That reminds me that when you have third parties in the equation, it complicates things, and makes it harder to avoid JADEing and defusing conflicts as they start; other people = more variables and more uncertainty.

For example, if my mom was coming over for a visit, I experienced it all during some of these times: her screaming at my mom, her screaming at me, her demanding my mom leave the house, then the next day her getting angry at me because my mom wasn't there to play with our daughter (yes this happened!), slamming doors, going from unhinged-wide-eyed anger to locking herself in the room and sobbing hysterically, etc.  And my mom lived on the other side of the country!  It wasn't like she visited frequently, or could just come and go easily if things blew up.

So... yeah.  It's hard enough not to JADE when it's just you and the pwBPD.  It's even harder when other people are there.

I think in those situations, there are two things you can do:
1) to the extent you know you're going to be in a situation that's triggered the pwBPD you have to proactively discuss with the pwBPD that you know they may be unhappy or upset, but you love them, they come first, and if anything happens to remain calm and you'll discuss it when you're alone, etc. That may help. 

Of course, that requires a lot of patience to do each time, especially if it's around the holidays, or something like that when you know there are going to be a lot of sensitive moments that trigger pwBPD, but if you're not ready to end the relationship, or can't end it, then this ounce of prevention is better than enduring repeated meltdowns.

2) if these situations involve people you trust, I would confide in them ahead of time that your partner has issues, or is "sensitive" or however you want to put it, and ask them to be patient as well, and say up front that you appreciate them and no matter what happens, understand that they aren't the problem, but you're between a rock and hard place managing expectations.  Assuming they've seen the pwBPD "in action" they'll understand and will likely be grateful to know you're not blaming them for it.

But be cautious: you would not want these people to go and spread rumors about your BPD partner, or tell your BPD partner what you've told them in confidence; these need to be people you really trust. 

I eventually had to do that with my mom and a couple other family members that BPDxw had lashed out at on occasion.  They all thanked me and said they appreciated knowing that I understood.  it helped them move on because after each time, they were left wondering what they did to cause the problem, what they could have done differently, and whether I was also angry at them.  While this didn't end the issues we all had with BPDxw, at least it helped them understand it better, so it didn't leave lasting wounds each time.