Punishment for betrayal

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

How much can you punish someone for a betrayal?

My wife frequently wants me to read posts on a redditpage called "loveafterporn" since I confessed years ago I had been watching porn a few times during our rs, not an addiction but I knew she didn't approve.

On this subreddit it seems everyone is of the same opinion and almost always validate each others thoughts even if it's about ideas of controlling their partner. But limiting a partners online activity like they were a child feels sick.

And how long does a porn watcher need to be "in debt"? It seems like an excuse to be abusive.

[15years]

How much can you punish someone for a betrayal?

My wife frequently wants me to read posts on a redditpage called "loveafterporn" since I confessed years ago I had been watching porn a few times during our rs, not an addiction but I knew she didn't approve.

On this subreddit it seems everyone is of the same opinion and almost always validate each others thoughts even if it's about ideas of controlling their partner. But limiting a partners online activity like they were a child feels sick.

And how long does a porn watcher need to be "in debt"? It seems like an excuse to be abusive.

[PeteWitsend]

...

And how long does a porn watcher need to be "in debt"? It seems like an excuse to be abusive.

It is an excuse to be abusive. 

Of course, pwBPD don't need an excuse to be abusive, but when they get one, or when you open the door to it by not standing up for yourself or drawing boundaries around something, they take advantage of the situation. 

I think in a normal relationship, with mutual trust and forthright and fair information sharing, you could - and should - admit to a mistake and reassure your partner after they express some concern.  But with a pwBPD, you have to exercise some judgment here.  I'm not saying that you don't owe a pwBPD the same amount of respect that you'd extend to a non-disordered person, but I'd look at it this way: did you really make a mistake?  was the pwBPD truly wronged here, or are they just pretending to be? 

If you're watching porn so much that you're not functioning as a human being or neglecting your partner, then sure, maybe you did wrong them. And you need to apologize, make a change and move on. 

But if that's not the case, then by admitting you have "a problem" or however else the pwBPD is phrasing it, you've just opened the door to the pwBPD to take the "high ground" here, and constantly beat you up to deflect from their own behavior and justify all they've done wrong by what you've admitted to.

You need to close that door, metaphorically speaking. 

[HurtAndTired]

Hi 15years,

Just from my own experience, I would say that a pwBPD can hold a "wrong" against you for as long as it serves them to do so. My dBPDw regularly breaks out her "list of grievances" against me and goes through a "litany of my wrongdoings" whenever she is dysregulated. Depending on how dysregulated she is and how long I am willing to hear her go through a circular "conversation" this experience can, and has, lasted for hours. She will regularly bring up things that I did "wrong" from 13 years ago when we first started dating. Nothing is ever forgotten or forgiven.

From what I have read here on these boards, this is a pretty common experience for us "non" partners of pwBPD. Hanging onto every little thing that you have ever done "wrong" (real or imagined) helps them reinforce their disordered thinking, where they are forever in the victim position of the Karpman Drama Triangle, and solidly places you in the persecutor position. This helps them keep their fragile sense of self intact and alleviates them of having to face uncomfortable truths, such as feeling bad about mistreating you. Of course, they treat you badly...because you deserve to be treated badly! Why do you deserve this? Well, look at this handy list they have compiled of why you are such a rotten person that deserves it! It's not abuse, it's a justifiable response to YOUR abuse of THEM.

You have zero control over their disordered thinking. You can never get them to forgive or forget. It is not in your power to do so. They will continue to be angry about something tiny and blow it out of proportion (or something completely fabricated) and be angry about it forever. The good news is that you have 100% control over two things. The first is how long you let them chew you out about something. I have a rule where if my wife is angry at me and complaining about me, I will listen if it is something from that day...or even that week. I will try to engage her in a productive discussion, apologize once (and sincerely) if it is warranted, and take responsibility if it was indeed my bad. However, if she starts to be verbally abusive, I will exit the conversation and not re-engage until she can speak to me civilly.

If she starts bringing up things from months or years ago, I will try to steer the conversation back to the present day. I will say, "Have I done something TODAY that has upset you?" If she cannot find an answer to that, the conversation is over. Anytime that the conversation starts turning into the "litany of wrongs" I will give her one warning and ask the question about TODAY, and then excuse myself from the room (or house if necessary). I have told her before, and will remind her when necessary, that I will no longer discuss problems that are not about the present. Discussing problems from the past serves no purpose except to make everyone involved angry. We cannot go back in time and change anything. If I have ever messed up, I have already apologized (back in the bad old days, sometimes I apologized more times than I could count for things that I never actually did). This is why I now apologize once and once only, but sincerely, if I have actually done something wrong. My days of endless apologies are forever done.

The second thing you have control over is how much you let the "litany of wrongs" get under your skin. For real things like having watched porn a few times (if this is truly a wrong, every man and most women in the world are "guilty" of it) you have already apologized and put it in the past. Forgive yourself and let it go. Don't let her get inside your head and live there rent free for the purposes of making you feel guilty. Don't let her disordered thinking become your disordered thinking. Remind yourself that she has a serious mental illness and is blowing things completely out of proportion in order to cast herself as a victim and you as the villain in the narrative she tells herself in her own mind. I know that listening to that warped narrative for years can begin to gaslight you and make you doubt yourself. Don't. Don't get caught up in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt) that pwBPD use to cloud our perception and judgment. Remind yourself that you are a good person and ask yourself if any normal person would judge you so harshly and for so long for something so minor? The answer is, of course, they wouldn't!

My wife gets bent out of shape about porn too, and frequently accuses me of constantly watching it. She even follows me to the bathroom thinking I am watching porn if I am out of the room for more than a minute or two. I have watched porn on occasion during our marriage, but no more so than any other normal person. But do you know what? I found out that she watches porn very frequently herself. Once she asked me to find something for her on her phone. She has an iPhone, and I am an Android guy, so I don't really know how to use her browser well. When I was trying to look something up for her like she asked, it displayed all the open tabs on her phone browser and like 90%+ of them were porn sites! For pwBPD, accusations are often admissions. When I asked her about the porn sites, she said she was "trying to figure out what kind of porn I was watching." HA!

I agree with PeteWitsend. Set a hard boundary about bringing up the past. It serves no purpose. Start excusing yourself from circular arguments and put a stop to the "litany of wrongs." She can't argue with you if you aren't in the room to argue with.

HurtAndTired

[Pook075]

And how long does a porn watcher need to be "in debt"? It seems like an excuse to be abusive.

To be clear, this isn't about porn...it's about the ability to forgive.

If I looked back at every single thing my ex-wife did to me over our marriage and listed it all out here, people would think she's a monster.  Yet we could do that with anyone here...list out the worst things they did over the last decade...and they'd be perceived as horrible people.

I always forgave my BPD ex and in most cases, I wouldn't even remember it a month later.  But she was keeping tabs on my "sins" and never actually let any of it go.

It sounds like you have to have an honest conversation- can she forgive you or not?  You can't live under eternal judgement so she must decide what the next steps are going to be.  Nobody should live under that kind of double-standard though; your wife has done lousy things in the past as well (because we all have, every single one of us despite our best intentions).

[kells76]

Hi 15years;

It sounds like your wife communicates that she wants you to read the subreddit page, and then you do read it. I am assuming that she knows that you read it (sees you do it, etc).

What outcome are you hoping for, when you agree to do that?

Are you achieving your desired outcome?

Does repeating what she wants you to do change anything?

[FindingMyGut]

I can relate, on steroids!

I did something seriously bad 14 years ago. But 13 years of punishment was not enough. I could not volunteer at our children’s school without him extrapolating and blaming me for being a people pleaser, not having boundaries, not prioritizing him, not helping him repair his self esteem, etc, etc. I was deep in the FOG, because I felt guilty, feared upsetting him, and felt obligated to do everything he asked as a way to make amends. His boundaries/demands just kept changing and I could never satisfy them.

Marriage counselling, 13 years of effort, 2 bad therapists and 2 good therapists later, I have finally put my foot down. I refuse to discuss it anymore, I will not engage in related criticisms, and I have boundaries in place to protect my independence.

It’s really not going well. But the FOG has lifted and I see the light. I’m on a path to peace and healing and I hope you can come to see the same. We all make mistakes. Would you forgive her?  Yes.  Trust your gut, stop beating yourself up, and stop letting her do the same.

Best wishes!

[FindingMyGut]

I should also add: the healthy response to something you cannot forgive / someone who is not respecting your boundaries is to end the relationship. If she truly felt threatened /unsafe /didn’t trust you, the foundation of the relationship is gone and without forgiveness it cannot be repaired. If she is not choosing a healthy response, it borders into manipulation.

[15years]

Thank you all for your response.

I would still like to discuss this more here because it is at the core of my rs-issues... Listening to her, I'm loosing my sense of what is a betrayal and what is a persons right to freedom. At the root of my uncertainty is that I understand and agree that men and women does not have an equal position when it comes to sexualized content online. I'm not "woke" and not the opposite either - I can understand that women feel more insecure about their partners activity online because there is more to be jealous about (not taking into account that you can probably also "betray" someone by seeking attention online).


Now she wants us to set up "guidelines" for my use of Spotify, because of sexual content in album covers and lyrics, that feels extreme and I told her I'm not going to do that. On the other hand, I do find myself sexually attracted to pictures I see on there, so I get the feeling that she's "on to me" and that I am guilty of what she's accusing me of.

One other aspect is that all the pressure and stress plus low relationship satisfaction makes me want to look at sexualized content even more. But that also sounds like an excuse to not hold oneself accountable... To me, this all is a jungle of what's right and what's wrong...

Please share any thought about this, the more the better Now all I get is my wife's point of view.

[Notwendy]

Please share any thought about this, the more the better Now all I get is my wife's point of view.

And that is concerning. If you look at your posts, your wife's thinking is influenced by her BPD and distorted thinking. On your part, it's been difficult to not buy into her own reality, but her own emotions and trauma are a frequent issue- it's not one situation. It seems that any possible connection to a sex drive- what music you listen to, what TV show you watch, who you speak to feels triggering to her and becomes something she feels she needs to control.

I think people vary in their opinion about porn. I personally don't like it, but I think most people have looked at it at some point, if even just for curiosity. I think, like several things (alcohol, shopping, gambling), there's a range of use and if it were an addiction, that would be an issue due to being an addiction. I think there can be a discrepancy between how two people feel about it- but it is not an excuse to be abusive or controlling.

IMHO, I think controlling your Spotify listening is an over reach.

Your wife may be the one with the distorted thinking but being isolated and listening to her thoughts only can also make you question yours.  If you are "looking" as a means of coping with a difficult situation, that doesn't mean you are a bad person and it doesn't mean you should tolerate abuse or being shamed. If you aren't seeing a therapist, I think it would help you too see one to help you maintain your own clarity and also be a support to your own feelings and thoughts.





 

[Pook075]

Please share any thought about this, the more the better Now all I get is my wife's point of view.

Remember that a core trait of BPD is fear of abandonment, and all of us want to feel safe and secure in their relationships.  If this was reversed and your wife was looking at porn without you, or commenting how sexy some of her favorite artists are on music covers, would it bother you?

I'm not trying to defend your wife here and we know that there's some disordered thinking that goes into her paranoia.  She's probably thinking, "He's watching porn and looking at sexy women on Spotify, so obviously he doesn't find me attractive anymore.  I wonder how long it's going to be before he abandons me?"

Maybe that's fair of her to think, maybe not.  I'm not here to judge.

The bigger point, I think, it that we know she feels threatened when you look at that sort of thing.  She sees it as an addiction that's taking over the marriage.  You don't see it as a problem but at the same time, you know she's jealous of that stuff and it hurts all areas of your marriage.

If it were me and i wanted to stay in the relationship, I'd give her access to my browser history and my Spotify account.  Because to me, the relationship is more important than sexy women on album covers.  I'm not in your shoes though so I can't see all the pros and cons of staying in the marriage.  That's something that only you can decide on your own.

Again, I have to stress this one more time, your online activity hurts her and feels like a betrayal.  It's your job as a husband to take away those fears and show her that you deserve to be trusted.  In a way, this isn't even about porn, it's about intimacy and her feeling more secure.

I hope that helps!

[Notwendy]

But where is the limit to what someone listens to or watches on TV? Popular actors/actresses and pop stars tend to also be attractive. I think it would be near impossible to avoid listening or seeing anything where the performer is attractive.

All addictions are forms of escaping from difficult emotions. They work to give some temporary emotional relief but are harmful in the long run- to the person, to the relationship, and to the family. If your wife is concerned about ongoing use of porn, she has a point. It needs to stop but like any addiction, may need support (counseling, 12 steps) to do that.

[Notwendy]

To add- this may actually be your loophole to get some help for you. If you tell your wife you are going to go to 12 step meetings to help you with your "issues" ( not an admission of guilt- just taking ownership for your part in the dynamic) - this allows her to save face - to "not be the problem" while you get some help for yourself.

The dynamics in a BPD relationship are so similar to addiction dynamics that it helps for both. Going through the 12 steps with a sponsor does deal with guilt, shame, resentment- and whether one is addicted to something or the spouse dealing with their own enabling tendencies- it helps both.

Being in ACA and CODA, there are also people who have addictions- they are there to look at the underlying reasons for them.

It's not being dishonest to have your wife believe you are going for your problems. That is actually true. The relationship involves both of you, but your part is the only one you can work on, and it's personal- you don't have to share your private self work.

[ForeverDad]

Looking at the big picture, this is just one of your wife's demands and blaming guilt trips.  Playing an amusement park's Whack-a-Mole may be fun for a few minutes but living it in real family life isn't - you won't feel your life is pleasant or rewarding under such endless pressures.

For that reason, I believe your challenge you face isn't just this one complaint but the whole barrage of emotional hurdles to survive.

But where is the limit to what someone listens to or watches on TV? Popular actors/actresses and pop stars tend to also be attractive. I think it would be near impossible to avoid listening or seeing anything where the performer is attractive.

As for this latest issue, I am reminded of the final years of my failed marriage when I was so beat down that any pleasures in life that even the least aspects of my life were impacted.  She could chat with anyone since she was always proper but I was blamed for even a glance, much less chatting.  It was life to fit the other's rules but I never had equal input.  I recall even when I was at work I virtually stuttered and looked down when I passed the female co-workers.  That is not normal and, worse, bordered on abusive impact.

[15years]

Now she wants me to move out if I don't unfollow my old colleague on IG. She says it's 'soft porn' content, but I scrolled through her profile and it's just family life... She works as a social worker, ironically.

I have nothing to lose, loosing her would be a blessing. I'm just too weak to do it by myself. Maybe she'll finally throw me out, that would be a breath of fresh air and maybe the initiative I need.

I sound pathetic but maybe you here understand that it's not only cowardice.

[Notwendy]

It's not cowardice. I saw similar dynamics with my parents and also felt like nothing I could say (or anyone could say) could change them. It would have been up to my father, as it was my mother who had the distorted thinking.

I think at some level you know your wife's successive demands are beyond reasonable. I think you know that not every song, or TV show is porn, and speaking to a work colleage is not cheating, yet somehow, you second guess yourself.

I think it has to do with how to coexist, otherwise there's conflict.

[HurtAndTired]

I want to echo what Notwendy is saying. It is NOT cowardice. It is a conditioned response. When a person is mentally, verbally, and emotionally beaten down long enough, it becomes natural to try to avoid conflict as a measure of self-preservation. You need to be more gentile and forgiving with yourself. You have endured experiences that would have broken many people and have persevered. Be proud of how strong you are to have made it to this point and how strong you have had to be to reach out here on BPDFamily and ask for help. Those are not the marks of a coward.

You have already shown that you can be brave. To make your life better, you will have to continue to be brave and force yourself to be even braver than you have been so far. Keep up the positive self-talk. Tell yourself things like "I know this is going to be hard, but I can do it!" Find motivation to push yourself beyond your comfort zone. My motivation was and is my son. I wasn't able to stand up to my wife's abuse for many years when it was just me who was receiving the abuse, but when I realized that our son (who was 2 at the time) was witnessing her abusive treatment of me and that this was damaging to him, I was able to find the courage to finally stand up to her...for his sake.

You need to place boundaries on what you are willing to put up with. People treat us the way that we allow them to treat us. Boundaries are what we use to say, "I will not allow you to treat me this way." I recommend that you read the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad. This book will give you step-by-step, actionable, concrete advice about how to get control back over your life. In relationships with pwBPD we often end up handing over too much power. The power over where we are, what we do, who we talk to, and even the power over what to do with our own bodies.

I would also recommend that if you are not already in individual therapy that you start. Having another person's perspective on what is going on in your life will help you sort out what is real and what is delusional in your life. When we spend so much time around pwBPD and their delusions, it can and does gaslight us into doubting our own thoughts and perceptions about what is real and/or right. A therapist will also help coach you on how to be more assertive (not mean, but assertive) and take autonomy back in your relationship.

Remember, love should never feel controlling and should never seek to control. If you have gotten to the point where you are being controlled or feel like you need to control, it is an indication that there is no trust in the relationship, and true toxicity has set in. Do not give in to someone's attempt to control you, as it will only cause the toxicity to increase. My wife no longer has access to my electronics because giving it to her did not increase her trust. She would "find evidence" of me cheating in innocent emails, texts, social media posts, etc. It's a cognitive distortion called confirmation bias that causes this, and pwBPD have it in spades.

If your wife is going through your social media, I recommend that you get her out of it. It will not increase her trust in you, it will just give her more opportunities to fabricate things to get upset about. I could not imagine going through my wife's phone, using GPS to track her location, or demanding that she send me selfies to prove where she was and who she was with. It would feel like a horrible invasion of her privacy. However, she demanded all of these things of me, and more, and at one point, I gave in to those demands to try to keep the peace. It did not work. It backfired, and her demands for access to all areas of my life only escalated and became more unreasonable. Even married people have a right to expect some degree of privacy in their lives. PwBPD have a real problem with this as they seek total enmeshment with a partner, where you no longer know where they end and you begin.

Keep being brave. You've got this!

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

I hope you can find a way to be brave for your boys too. Understandable that your wife feels triggered by behavior related to male sexuality, and while respectful and appropriate behavior is the expectation, of everyone, humans are hard wired for certain feelings and behaviors.

It would be sad if your boys were made to feel ashamed of their bodies and the normal changes at puberty, and their curiosity, due to your wife's emotional reactions, but also, you are their male role model. How you behave and feel about yourself will influence them. If you can gain confidence and boundaries it will help them too.