Punishment for betrayal

[15years]

How much can you punish someone for a betrayal?

My wife frequently wants me to read posts on a redditpage called "loveafterporn" since I confessed years ago I had been watching porn a few times during our rs, not an addiction but I knew she didn't approve.

On this subreddit it seems everyone is of the same opinion and almost always validate each others thoughts even if it's about ideas of controlling their partner. But limiting a partners online activity like they were a child feels sick.

And how long does a porn watcher need to be "in debt"? It seems like an excuse to be abusive.

[PeteWitsend]

...

And how long does a porn watcher need to be "in debt"? It seems like an excuse to be abusive.

It is an excuse to be abusive. 

Of course, pwBPD don't need an excuse to be abusive, but when they get one, or when you open the door to it by not standing up for yourself or drawing boundaries around something, they take advantage of the situation. 

I think in a normal relationship, with mutual trust and forthright and fair information sharing, you could - and should - admit to a mistake and reassure your partner after they express some concern.  But with a pwBPD, you have to exercise some judgment here.  I'm not saying that you don't owe a pwBPD the same amount of respect that you'd extend to a non-disordered person, but I'd look at it this way: did you really make a mistake?  was the pwBPD truly wronged here, or are they just pretending to be? 

If you're watching porn so much that you're not functioning as a human being or neglecting your partner, then sure, maybe you did wrong them. And you need to apologize, make a change and move on. 

But if that's not the case, then by admitting you have "a problem" or however else the pwBPD is phrasing it, you've just opened the door to the pwBPD to take the "high ground" here, and constantly beat you up to deflect from their own behavior and justify all they've done wrong by what you've admitted to.

You need to close that door, metaphorically speaking. 

[HurtAndTired]

Hi 15years,

Just from my own experience, I would say that a pwBPD can hold a "wrong" against you for as long as it serves them to do so. My dBPDw regularly breaks out her "list of grievances" against me and goes through a "litany of my wrongdoings" whenever she is dysregulated. Depending on how dysregulated she is and how long I am willing to hear her go through a circular "conversation" this experience can, and has, lasted for hours. She will regularly bring up things that I did "wrong" from 13 years ago when we first started dating. Nothing is ever forgotten or forgiven.

From what I have read here on these boards, this is a pretty common experience for us "non" partners of pwBPD. Hanging onto every little thing that you have ever done "wrong" (real or imagined) helps them reinforce their disordered thinking, where they are forever in the victim position of the Karpman Drama Triangle, and solidly places you in the persecutor position. This helps them keep their fragile sense of self intact and alleviates them of having to face uncomfortable truths, such as feeling bad about mistreating you. Of course, they treat you badly...because you deserve to be treated badly! Why do you deserve this? Well, look at this handy list they have compiled of why you are such a rotten person that deserves it! It's not abuse, it's a justifiable response to YOUR abuse of THEM.

You have zero control over their disordered thinking. You can never get them to forgive or forget. It is not in your power to do so. They will continue to be angry about something tiny and blow it out of proportion (or something completely fabricated) and be angry about it forever. The good news is that you have 100% control over two things. The first is how long you let them chew you out about something. I have a rule where if my wife is angry at me and complaining about me, I will listen if it is something from that day...or even that week. I will try to engage her in a productive discussion, apologize once (and sincerely) if it is warranted, and take responsibility if it was indeed my bad. However, if she starts to be verbally abusive, I will exit the conversation and not re-engage until she can speak to me civilly.

If she starts bringing up things from months or years ago, I will try to steer the conversation back to the present day. I will say, "Have I done something TODAY that has upset you?" If she cannot find an answer to that, the conversation is over. Anytime that the conversation starts turning into the "litany of wrongs" I will give her one warning and ask the question about TODAY, and then excuse myself from the room (or house if necessary). I have told her before, and will remind her when necessary, that I will no longer discuss problems that are not about the present. Discussing problems from the past serves no purpose except to make everyone involved angry. We cannot go back in time and change anything. If I have ever messed up, I have already apologized (back in the bad old days, sometimes I apologized more times than I could count for things that I never actually did). This is why I now apologize once and once only, but sincerely, if I have actually done something wrong. My days of endless apologies are forever done.

The second thing you have control over is how much you let the "litany of wrongs" get under your skin. For real things like having watched porn a few times (if this is truly a wrong, every man and most women in the world are "guilty" of it) you have already apologized and put it in the past. Forgive yourself and let it go. Don't let her get inside your head and live there rent free for the purposes of making you feel guilty. Don't let her disordered thinking become your disordered thinking. Remind yourself that she has a serious mental illness and is blowing things completely out of proportion in order to cast herself as a victim and you as the villain in the narrative she tells herself in her own mind. I know that listening to that warped narrative for years can begin to gaslight you and make you doubt yourself. Don't. Don't get caught up in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt) that pwBPD use to cloud our perception and judgment. Remind yourself that you are a good person and ask yourself if any normal person would judge you so harshly and for so long for something so minor? The answer is, of course, they wouldn't!

My wife gets bent out of shape about porn too, and frequently accuses me of constantly watching it. She even follows me to the bathroom thinking I am watching porn if I am out of the room for more than a minute or two. I have watched porn on occasion during our marriage, but no more so than any other normal person. But do you know what? I found out that she watches porn very frequently herself. Once she asked me to find something for her on her phone. She has an iPhone, and I am an Android guy, so I don't really know how to use her browser well. When I was trying to look something up for her like she asked, it displayed all the open tabs on her phone browser and like 90%+ of them were porn sites! For pwBPD, accusations are often admissions. When I asked her about the porn sites, she said she was "trying to figure out what kind of porn I was watching." HA!

I agree with PeteWitsend. Set a hard boundary about bringing up the past. It serves no purpose. Start excusing yourself from circular arguments and put a stop to the "litany of wrongs." She can't argue with you if you aren't in the room to argue with.

HurtAndTired

[Pook075]

And how long does a porn watcher need to be "in debt"? It seems like an excuse to be abusive.

To be clear, this isn't about porn...it's about the ability to forgive.

If I looked back at every single thing my ex-wife did to me over our marriage and listed it all out here, people would think she's a monster.  Yet we could do that with anyone here...list out the worst things they did over the last decade...and they'd be perceived as horrible people.

I always forgave my BPD ex and in most cases, I wouldn't even remember it a month later.  But she was keeping tabs on my "sins" and never actually let any of it go.

It sounds like you have to have an honest conversation- can she forgive you or not?  You can't live under eternal judgement so she must decide what the next steps are going to be.  Nobody should live under that kind of double-standard though; your wife has done lousy things in the past as well (because we all have, every single one of us despite our best intentions).

[kells76]

Hi 15years;

It sounds like your wife communicates that she wants you to read the subreddit page, and then you do read it. I am assuming that she knows that you read it (sees you do it, etc).

What outcome are you hoping for, when you agree to do that?

Are you achieving your desired outcome?

Does repeating what she wants you to do change anything?

[FindingMyGut]

I can relate, on steroids!

I did something seriously bad 14 years ago. But 13 years of punishment was not enough. I could not volunteer at our children’s school without him extrapolating and blaming me for being a people pleaser, not having boundaries, not prioritizing him, not helping him repair his self esteem, etc, etc. I was deep in the FOG, because I felt guilty, feared upsetting him, and felt obligated to do everything he asked as a way to make amends. His boundaries/demands just kept changing and I could never satisfy them.

Marriage counselling, 13 years of effort, 2 bad therapists and 2 good therapists later, I have finally put my foot down. I refuse to discuss it anymore, I will not engage in related criticisms, and I have boundaries in place to protect my independence.

It’s really not going well. But the FOG has lifted and I see the light. I’m on a path to peace and healing and I hope you can come to see the same. We all make mistakes. Would you forgive her?  Yes.  Trust your gut, stop beating yourself up, and stop letting her do the same.

Best wishes!

[FindingMyGut]

I should also add: the healthy response to something you cannot forgive / someone who is not respecting your boundaries is to end the relationship. If she truly felt threatened /unsafe /didn’t trust you, the foundation of the relationship is gone and without forgiveness it cannot be repaired. If she is not choosing a healthy response, it borders into manipulation.

[15years]

Thank you all for your response.

I would still like to discuss this more here because it is at the core of my rs-issues... Listening to her, I'm loosing my sense of what is a betrayal and what is a persons right to freedom. At the root of my uncertainty is that I understand and agree that men and women does not have an equal position when it comes to sexualized content online. I'm not "woke" and not the opposite either - I can understand that women feel more insecure about their partners activity online because there is more to be jealous about (not taking into account that you can probably also "betray" someone by seeking attention online).


Now she wants us to set up "guidelines" for my use of Spotify, because of sexual content in album covers and lyrics, that feels extreme and I told her I'm not going to do that. On the other hand, I do find myself sexually attracted to pictures I see on there, so I get the feeling that she's "on to me" and that I am guilty of what she's accusing me of.

One other aspect is that all the pressure and stress plus low relationship satisfaction makes me want to look at sexualized content even more. But that also sounds like an excuse to not hold oneself accountable... To me, this all is a jungle of what's right and what's wrong...

Please share any thought about this, the more the better Now all I get is my wife's point of view.

[Notwendy]

Please share any thought about this, the more the better Now all I get is my wife's point of view.

And that is concerning. If you look at your posts, your wife's thinking is influenced by her BPD and distorted thinking. On your part, it's been difficult to not buy into her own reality, but her own emotions and trauma are a frequent issue- it's not one situation. It seems that any possible connection to a sex drive- what music you listen to, what TV show you watch, who you speak to feels triggering to her and becomes something she feels she needs to control.

I think people vary in their opinion about porn. I personally don't like it, but I think most people have looked at it at some point, if even just for curiosity. I think, like several things (alcohol, shopping, gambling), there's a range of use and if it were an addiction, that would be an issue due to being an addiction. I think there can be a discrepancy between how two people feel about it- but it is not an excuse to be abusive or controlling.

IMHO, I think controlling your Spotify listening is an over reach.

Your wife may be the one with the distorted thinking but being isolated and listening to her thoughts only can also make you question yours.  If you are "looking" as a means of coping with a difficult situation, that doesn't mean you are a bad person and it doesn't mean you should tolerate abuse or being shamed. If you aren't seeing a therapist, I think it would help you too see one to help you maintain your own clarity and also be a support to your own feelings and thoughts.





 

[Pook075]

Please share any thought about this, the more the better Now all I get is my wife's point of view.

Remember that a core trait of BPD is fear of abandonment, and all of us want to feel safe and secure in their relationships.  If this was reversed and your wife was looking at porn without you, or commenting how sexy some of her favorite artists are on music covers, would it bother you?

I'm not trying to defend your wife here and we know that there's some disordered thinking that goes into her paranoia.  She's probably thinking, "He's watching porn and looking at sexy women on Spotify, so obviously he doesn't find me attractive anymore.  I wonder how long it's going to be before he abandons me?"

Maybe that's fair of her to think, maybe not.  I'm not here to judge.

The bigger point, I think, it that we know she feels threatened when you look at that sort of thing.  She sees it as an addiction that's taking over the marriage.  You don't see it as a problem but at the same time, you know she's jealous of that stuff and it hurts all areas of your marriage.

If it were me and i wanted to stay in the relationship, I'd give her access to my browser history and my Spotify account.  Because to me, the relationship is more important than sexy women on album covers.  I'm not in your shoes though so I can't see all the pros and cons of staying in the marriage.  That's something that only you can decide on your own.

Again, I have to stress this one more time, your online activity hurts her and feels like a betrayal.  It's your job as a husband to take away those fears and show her that you deserve to be trusted.  In a way, this isn't even about porn, it's about intimacy and her feeling more secure.

I hope that helps!

[Notwendy]

But where is the limit to what someone listens to or watches on TV? Popular actors/actresses and pop stars tend to also be attractive. I think it would be near impossible to avoid listening or seeing anything where the performer is attractive.

All addictions are forms of escaping from difficult emotions. They work to give some temporary emotional relief but are harmful in the long run- to the person, to the relationship, and to the family. If your wife is concerned about ongoing use of porn, she has a point. It needs to stop but like any addiction, may need support (counseling, 12 steps) to do that.

[Notwendy]

To add- this may actually be your loophole to get some help for you. If you tell your wife you are going to go to 12 step meetings to help you with your "issues" ( not an admission of guilt- just taking ownership for your part in the dynamic) - this allows her to save face - to "not be the problem" while you get some help for yourself.

The dynamics in a BPD relationship are so similar to addiction dynamics that it helps for both. Going through the 12 steps with a sponsor does deal with guilt, shame, resentment- and whether one is addicted to something or the spouse dealing with their own enabling tendencies- it helps both.

Being in ACA and CODA, there are also people who have addictions- they are there to look at the underlying reasons for them.

It's not being dishonest to have your wife believe you are going for your problems. That is actually true. The relationship involves both of you, but your part is the only one you can work on, and it's personal- you don't have to share your private self work.

[ForeverDad]

Looking at the big picture, this is just one of your wife's demands and blaming guilt trips.  Playing an amusement park's Whack-a-Mole may be fun for a few minutes but living it in real family life isn't - you won't feel your life is pleasant or rewarding under such endless pressures.

For that reason, I believe your challenge you face isn't just this one complaint but the whole barrage of emotional hurdles to survive.

But where is the limit to what someone listens to or watches on TV? Popular actors/actresses and pop stars tend to also be attractive. I think it would be near impossible to avoid listening or seeing anything where the performer is attractive.

As for this latest issue, I am reminded of the final years of my failed marriage when I was so beat down that any pleasures in life that even the least aspects of my life were impacted.  She could chat with anyone since she was always proper but I was blamed for even a glance, much less chatting.  It was life to fit the other's rules but I never had equal input.  I recall even when I was at work I virtually stuttered and looked down when I passed the female co-workers.  That is not normal and, worse, bordered on abusive impact.

[15years]

Now she wants me to move out if I don't unfollow my old colleague on IG. She says it's 'soft porn' content, but I scrolled through her profile and it's just family life... She works as a social worker, ironically.

I have nothing to lose, loosing her would be a blessing. I'm just too weak to do it by myself. Maybe she'll finally throw me out, that would be a breath of fresh air and maybe the initiative I need.

I sound pathetic but maybe you here understand that it's not only cowardice.

[Notwendy]

It's not cowardice. I saw similar dynamics with my parents and also felt like nothing I could say (or anyone could say) could change them. It would have been up to my father, as it was my mother who had the distorted thinking.

I think at some level you know your wife's successive demands are beyond reasonable. I think you know that not every song, or TV show is porn, and speaking to a work colleage is not cheating, yet somehow, you second guess yourself.

I think it has to do with how to coexist, otherwise there's conflict.

[HurtAndTired]

I want to echo what Notwendy is saying. It is NOT cowardice. It is a conditioned response. When a person is mentally, verbally, and emotionally beaten down long enough, it becomes natural to try to avoid conflict as a measure of self-preservation. You need to be more gentile and forgiving with yourself. You have endured experiences that would have broken many people and have persevered. Be proud of how strong you are to have made it to this point and how strong you have had to be to reach out here on BPDFamily and ask for help. Those are not the marks of a coward.

You have already shown that you can be brave. To make your life better, you will have to continue to be brave and force yourself to be even braver than you have been so far. Keep up the positive self-talk. Tell yourself things like "I know this is going to be hard, but I can do it!" Find motivation to push yourself beyond your comfort zone. My motivation was and is my son. I wasn't able to stand up to my wife's abuse for many years when it was just me who was receiving the abuse, but when I realized that our son (who was 2 at the time) was witnessing her abusive treatment of me and that this was damaging to him, I was able to find the courage to finally stand up to her...for his sake.

You need to place boundaries on what you are willing to put up with. People treat us the way that we allow them to treat us. Boundaries are what we use to say, "I will not allow you to treat me this way." I recommend that you read the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad. This book will give you step-by-step, actionable, concrete advice about how to get control back over your life. In relationships with pwBPD we often end up handing over too much power. The power over where we are, what we do, who we talk to, and even the power over what to do with our own bodies.

I would also recommend that if you are not already in individual therapy that you start. Having another person's perspective on what is going on in your life will help you sort out what is real and what is delusional in your life. When we spend so much time around pwBPD and their delusions, it can and does gaslight us into doubting our own thoughts and perceptions about what is real and/or right. A therapist will also help coach you on how to be more assertive (not mean, but assertive) and take autonomy back in your relationship.

Remember, love should never feel controlling and should never seek to control. If you have gotten to the point where you are being controlled or feel like you need to control, it is an indication that there is no trust in the relationship, and true toxicity has set in. Do not give in to someone's attempt to control you, as it will only cause the toxicity to increase. My wife no longer has access to my electronics because giving it to her did not increase her trust. She would "find evidence" of me cheating in innocent emails, texts, social media posts, etc. It's a cognitive distortion called confirmation bias that causes this, and pwBPD have it in spades.

If your wife is going through your social media, I recommend that you get her out of it. It will not increase her trust in you, it will just give her more opportunities to fabricate things to get upset about. I could not imagine going through my wife's phone, using GPS to track her location, or demanding that she send me selfies to prove where she was and who she was with. It would feel like a horrible invasion of her privacy. However, she demanded all of these things of me, and more, and at one point, I gave in to those demands to try to keep the peace. It did not work. It backfired, and her demands for access to all areas of my life only escalated and became more unreasonable. Even married people have a right to expect some degree of privacy in their lives. PwBPD have a real problem with this as they seek total enmeshment with a partner, where you no longer know where they end and you begin.

Keep being brave. You've got this!

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

I hope you can find a way to be brave for your boys too. Understandable that your wife feels triggered by behavior related to male sexuality, and while respectful and appropriate behavior is the expectation, of everyone, humans are hard wired for certain feelings and behaviors.

It would be sad if your boys were made to feel ashamed of their bodies and the normal changes at puberty, and their curiosity, due to your wife's emotional reactions, but also, you are their male role model. How you behave and feel about yourself will influence them. If you can gain confidence and boundaries it will help them too.

[ForeverDad]

This is one of my looking back posts from May 2010, 15 years ago.
"she had me conditioned to look down to the ground whenever any woman under age 65 came near.  And if I came to a red light, I couldn't glance at any woman crossing the street in front of me unless she was using a walker."

You've been conditioned and belittled over time, just like I was.  And, as in my case and so many other cases described here, whenever you cave and comply, it doesn't get any better, she just moves on to another criticism and demand.

Frankly, I don't see how she can ever stop herself.  Maybe you might manage to set a firm boundary on something but then she'd just change to yet another issue.  That's been your reality - and probably will be as long as the relationship continues.

Yes, she's threatened to make you move out if you don't comply, but don't expect her to follow through and end the marriage for your benefit.  More likely this is yet more coercion to erode your sense of self and continue crushing you.  She likes it the way you are, beaten down. You've been here for some 3 years and her pattern hasn't changed.  In other words, until you stop it - exiting the marriage - it won't stop.  Sorry.

[15years]

I think she finally broke me in the Instagram conflict, it might not be worth it to continue following my female friend there, even an AI chat said it might be the best solution to unfollow, even if I tried my best to describe my wife's tendency to be controlling.

[EyesUp]

@15yrs,

I brought my uBPDxw to a company holiday party - this was before we were married, and most people were +1, and I was glad to introduce my smart, attractive girlfriend to my colleagues...

Well, she was noticeably uncomfortable when I introduced her to female colleagues... She was particularly upset about one in particular, who she insisted was interested in me - it was the director of HR.  We left the party early and she calmed down.

Another time, we joined a group from work for drinks at a bar. My girlfriend was alternately silent or hostile - to everyone. We left early, she calmed down.

Another time we met a college friend - and her husband and kids - for dinner. My then-wife got up to use the bathroom and never came back - texted me from outside the restaurant saying "time to go" - I had to wrangle our kids and settle the bill while making excuses for my wife's disappearance. No explanation, no apology.

I was able to "forgive and forget" all of this and keep moving forward. The imbalance of these episodes didn't really come into focus for me until after a couple of years of post divorce therapy - and reading my journal.

My suggestion for you:  Keep a journal.

Make it concise - no long narratives, just the facts - much as you present the situation here. "April 25 - W wants to monitor Spotify" etc.

You may find that reviewing your history from time to time enables you to keep things in focus that you would otherwise let go. The goal is not necessarily to end the relationship - it's to empower yourself to keep tabs on reality!

I used a password protected app called Evernote, but there are lots of ways to do this.

It sounds like your W is monitoring your digital life, so you may need to find a way to be discrete.

btw, how does your W feel about you reviewing her social media / Spotify / activity, et al?   Is there a double standard?   That can be telling...

Hang in there.

[Notwendy]

I think she finally broke me in the Instagram conflict, it might not be worth it to continue following my female friend there, even an AI chat said it might be the best solution to unfollow, even if I tried my best to describe my wife's tendency to be controlling.

I watched my BPD mother do this kind of thing with my Dad over something she wanted.

Giving in to the current request- if that were the solution, it would be an easy one. If staying off IG and Spotify solved your wife's feelings, then to just delete them would do it. All would be well if that were it- right?

But from your posts over the past time here- you know it's not it. It's just "it" in the moment.

We experienced it too. In a conflict with BPD mother, she could escalate to the point where the other person would back down in order to stop her behavior. I think I have a pretty good idea of what went on over the IG.

You did mention there was some trauma for your wife as a teen. I don't have proof of any trauma for my BPD mother but from her behavior- I suspect something happened. One consequence of trauma is that it can be triggered, relived, unless the person is able to work at, be a part of the treatment.

This couldn't happen with my BPD mother because of how she projected it. She perceived it as people doing something to her- not her own trauma being triggered. Because she felt she was being hurt or attacked- she "fought back". But this reason doesn't excuse abusive behavior or mean anyone should be treated like that.

Since she was "seeing" her own trauma in her relationships- she would see it in situations that had nothing more to them other than they reminded her of it. So just going about what is ordinary activity might do it. We didn't want to see her upset, we also didn't want to have her angry at us so this resulted in being on guard, walking on eggshells.

For your wife, it seems that anything with possible suggestive sexual content creates distress for her. So her reaction is to stop whatever it is. While something like porn is an obvious issue- this has gone beyond that- to the point where any female- a colleague, your child's teacher, a pop star, or TV show becomes a possible issue.

I just hope that you can hold on to your own sense of reality- that this is your wife's emotions driving this and that you are choosing to unfollow this person to not continue the conflict over this.

I also agree to not say anything to the former co-worker. A part of work relationships is to not get too personal. Your colleague is not responsible for your marital issues- and so likely doesn't want to hear about them or cause any issues with your wife. Just unfollow if you choose to.

[EyesUp]

To follow NotWendy's suggestion - there are tools in IG and other social apps that allow you to restrict or otherwise reduce engagement with an account without blocking or unfollowing the account. 

This type of feature exists, in part, to enable people to discretely disengage without notifying the account in question.

Perhaps this is a way to thread the needle?

i.e., don't raise concerns with a colleague, and reduce whatever is triggering to your W?

[PeteWitsend]

I experienced a lot of this. 

I finally put my foot down and told BPDxw she wasn't allowed to look at my phone anymore.  She didn't like it, and complained about it, but grudgingly went along, which somewhat surprised me.

I was largely able to minimize phone- and internet-related fights by changing the settings on my phone, such as:
- set the notifications to not give pop up/banner notices. 
- unless you're expecting calls, emails, or texts you have to take at home, I would just set it to silent, and no vibration.  This is what I did, after noticing that if I got a bunch of texts - which 99% of the time was male friends talking about sports - it would trigger BPDxw and she'd start angrily demanding to know who was texting me.   
- delete calls and texts from the record if you know the pwBPD is going to get upset over them
- view a lot of websites, such as BPDfamily, on the inPrivate or similar setting on your browser. 

Remember to close out browser windows; even if you look at something on private mode; if you left it open, the person can switch to private mode and see what's there.  I noticed a couple times BPDxw would ask to use my phone for some fake reason, and immediately check "inPrivate browsing" to see what I had been looking at (nothing was ever there), and start snooping through my texts and phone history.  She didn't even try to pretend the reason she asked to use my phone was valid. 

[zachira]

It seems that what may likely be the key to being less affected by your wife blaming you for how she feels is to work on separating your emotions from hers and own what belongs to you. This is extremely challenging because when in the constant presence of a person overwhelmed by their own emotions, we often take on these emotions as if they were are own. This is more likely to happen in close relationships in which we are constantly blamed for how the other person feels when they are emotionally overwhelmed.   

[CC43]

I think on this question of how long someone can punish you for something, the answer might be, for as long as you allow them.  Part of a healthy relationship is forgiveness, learning to move on, and accepting that we're human after all.  Your spouse clearly doesn't want to move on.  In fact, if the incidents happened long ago and didn't actually harm anyone, then I think, you must be an awesome husband, because she really had to dig deep in the archive to dredge up supposed dirt on you and lord it over your head.  My first thought is, is that her worst complaint?  I mean, if she has a husband who provides, who chooses to stay with her every day, who didn't have an affair, doesn't do drugs, hasn't been in jail, doesn't abuse her and is probably an all-around nice guy, then she ought not to be so hung up on watching some porn, especially if you apologized and don't do it in front of her or instead of engaging with her.

I will say that when spouses try to be too controlling--if they have BPD or not--it can be very toxic.  A healthy relationship is supposed to be a partnership, not a master/slave relationship.  Examples of excessive control are forbidding you to see friends and family, surveilling your phone and online activity, and incessant calls/texts whenever you leave the household.  I've experienced some of those behaviors with my husband, who doesn't even have BPD.  But it's important to have boundaries, and reclaim your rights as an adult, because if even if you "give in" to her outrageous demands, my opinion is that it does not help at all.  Rather, it emboldens her to try to control you even more.  Now I'm not saying you should watch porn every day in retaliation.  But I think you shouldn't submit to her stalking you or surveilling your every move, because that feels like treating you worse than a 12-year-old.  If she doesn't trust you, then that's her problem.

Now, I will grant you that your wife probably feels very insecure, which is typical for BPD.  Maybe you need to remind her that you chose her over all other women when you married her.  You choose to be with her every day.  You sincerely apologized for hurting her feelings by watching porn, but you didn't mean to hurt her feelings.  If she can't accept an apology, then that's her choice as an adult.  I know, that's using logic, when at the core is her emotional dysregulation.  My bet is, there's something else going on that is stressing her out, and she's taking it out on you by dredging up the porn accusations.  She might even be feeding off of the distress she's causing you with her accusations; she likes to see your guilt and contrition.  My advice would be to stay calm, repeat the apology ("I didn't mean to hurt your feelings") and then go about your day.  If she wants to scream, pout or be passive-aggressive, then let her.  Give her an "adult time out" until she calms down.  But don't let her exact retribution in the form of surveillance, control or punishment.  You can't change the past, and she'll either learn to accept that or not.

Just my two cents.

[Notwendy]

I think she finally broke me.

I think we relate these posts to our own experiences and this one stood out to me. I believe it. My BPD mother could escalate to the point where anyone would give in to what she wanted, just to get her behaviors to stop.

BPD is on a spectrum and each relationship is different- so we don't tell posters what to do for that reason. It is possible for someone's spouse to feel insecure and want to monitor social media activity because of that, and that may be controlling but is it abusive?

I'm not looking at only the topic of being on IG with a female co-worker. If a marital issue was solved by deleting a connection with someone on social media- if only it was that easy.

I'm looking at the pattern. Emotions, past trauma, are triggered in the person with BPD by something in the present by someone close to them (intentional or not). The emotions are not perceived as being internal but are projected on to the person or some "solution"- either needs the person to do something, or aquire something, or stop doing something. The emotions are unbearable and the only perceived relief is the desired action or object. A request is made and if not comlplied with immediately, the behaviors escalate until the person gives in.

This is reinforcing to both. The pwBPD gets what they want and believing it will be the solution, may have some temporary relief from the distress. But it is temporary as the perceived solution isn't the solution for the unresolved trauma or emotions. The other person also gets temporary relief from the behaviors. These are self reinforcing behaviors and so, this cycle continues.

How long to tolerate the cyclic behavior- that is individual too.

I hope this board can at least be a source of validation for how it feels to be in this situation.

[Notwendy]

To add-the cycle doesn't stop as long as both people are engaged in it. It works for both of you, as it temporary relieves your wife of her emotions and temporary relieves you of the discomfort of her behavior. However, even with the advice here on this board- you are the one to decide on what to do about the situation.

I observed this situation with my father, but he would have had to be the one to take action.

This is one reason we don't post "run" messages. The person needs to decide this for themselves.

[PeteWitsend]

...

This is reinforcing to both. The pwBPD gets what they want and believing it will be the solution, may have some temporary relief from the distress. But it is temporary as the perceived solution isn't the solution for the unresolved trauma or emotions. The other person also gets temporary relief from the behaviors. These are self reinforcing behaviors and so, this cycle continues. ...

Sometimes the non-disordered partner feels like complete disclosure is the solution, i.e. "if I show and tell him/her everything, then they will trust me, or can eventually learn to trust me."  But as you note above, this is impossible, because the pwBPD is not being upfront about the real issue, either because they refuse to get help, or they simply can't recognize it.

So it's almost like the nons have to throw the normal rules for human interaction out the window and have separate rules for the pwBPD.  Whereas being honest and upfront with a partner builds trust over time, with a pwBPD, it's just opening the door to further abuse and control. 

There was a story in the news here a couple years ago, about a father (an American medical doctor), and his ex-wife (a Brazilian woman from a wealthy family), who after divorce had kidnapped their son and kept him in Brazil, protected by her family, and despite some extensive wrangling in court, the father had been unable to get his son back.  Brazil is a signatory to the Hague convention, and I guess the family in Brazil had enough clout to defy an international treaty.   In order to see his son, the father had to travel there, and the family kept him under supervision the entire time.  Eventually her parents visited the U.S. for a shopping trip, and were detained and charged with kidnapping, but eventually released (different rules for rich people!).

Anyhow, in the local reporting on it, they would note that the father had admitted during the U.S. divorce proceedings that he had a "porn addiction," and as part of the divorce settlement had to show he got treated for it.  Whatever. by all appearances he was a successful doctor, and had also according to the record, had no other legal issues, so I wouldn't be surprised if the "addiction" was a lot of embellishment on her part.  I'm assuming she forced him to admit that in some way, just to use against him, offering some disingenuous concession from her, because the record against her behavior was otherwise pretty damning.  But at least the "porn addiction" thing gave her some basis to point the finger back at him.

For this reason, I'd be careful ever admitting anything personally embarrassing or damaging to a pwBPD.  like the Miranda Warning the police give says "anything you say can be used against you."  And then you have to ask, is your behavior really a problem?  Nobody's perfect and lots of people look at porn... quite often, given the internet statistics on it.  Why let the pwBPD drag you down that path?  And finally it's not like the pwBPD is ever upfront about their behavior when entering into the committed relationship.  Do they ever say "Oh, by the way, I am BPD.  Here's what that means.  Take some time to read about it, and visit www.bpdfamily.com to read lots of horrific accounts of how pwBPD treat their partners, family members and close friends, then let me know if you still want to do this."?  Doubtful!

[Notwendy]

Another example is that my parents shared one email account. Anything I said to my father was shared with BPD mother. They had a house phone and if I called, she'd pick up the extension and listen. Sometimes I'd call, he'd pick up
and if she then picked up the phone, he'd hang up.

When his health got worse and home health nurses would visit, BPD mother would sit by the door and listened.

Clearly, this had nothing to do with any "other woman". What I think BPD mother was concerned about is that- he might say something about her that may have suggested "issues".

All forms of over controlling are about managing anxiety. If she monitored conversations, she'd feel sure we weren't discussing her. Or she'd control something even if it didn't make sense.

But again it was up to my father to decide to change this and I know it was a challenging situation.