Connected The Dots Too Late

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello BPDFamily, this is my first post.
I'd like to share my story and get some advice.
Thank you in advance for your time and thoughts.

This relationship began a little over a year ago. Before that I was single for about a year and before that had a relatively pleasant and calm 2-year relationship with someone who I eventually identified was not 'the one' for me. Although that 2-year relationship worked, I was plagued with some doubt and never had a feeling of certainty. The doubts specifically were around how much I was attracted to them physically, life-style match, and depth of connection through my passions. At that time it was challenging to make a decision without 'certainty' that I would find someone that was a better match for me, but I could not keep leading this person on.

A year passes after that break-up, I'm single, I feel more confident in that decision, and open to a new relationship. Then someone who I was familiar with through my passions and mutual friends, and attracted to, admits to me one day that they have feelings for me. I'll refer to them as Lily just to make writing this out easier....

At this moment of confession, Lily was actually in a relationship and struggling with a similar indecision as I did in my previous relationship (about lifestyle, passion match, etc.). I shared my experiences and advice, and what helped me make a decision etc. And also confessed I had some feelings for her myself.

A little bit of time passes (weeks), we stay in touch, I eventually find out she has broken up. At that time I expected things to go slowly since she was just coming out of that relationship but somehow things started to progress quite quickly. There was a moment where she assured me that this break-up was a long time coming for her, that they weren't 'romantic' for almost a year up to that point etc etc.
My naive-ass trusted this and went along thinking 'yeah this is strange to not have that much time after their break-up being ready for something new, but hey I trust what they are saying and this feels right'.

In fact, things felt really really good. She was exactly what I was looking for, and we connected very deeply over many things. Passions, life-style, values, intellectual pursuits, many things. And it didn't quite feel like mirroring, there was a history of these interests on her end, it just felt like a really good match. We could spend a lot of time together and not get bored. Passionate romance. Everything. I was cautious at first, but eventually 'let go' and let myself trust and fully commit my heart (in a way I did not in the previous relationship).

A few months start going by, everything is okay. Somewhere in the middle she mentions she's still friends with her ex (without elaboration), and I understand and don't think too much of it because.. well I had an amicable break-up myself and was trusting at the time.

Then the first difficult incident occurs. A friend that I had known prior to meeting Lily, an empath type who I trusted deeply, happened to have a history with Lily. They had been best friends for many years, until at some point this friend distanced themselves from Lily. This friend, after finding out how serious I was about Lily, pulled me aside at a gathering and checked in with me how things were going. I got the sense there was some concern and questioned them. They were relatively vague at the time and referenced 'concerning patterns of behavior'.
This was challenging because on one hand I trusted this friend and believed they had my best interest at heart, on the other hand I also had no reason to be concerned about Lily at this point. I also couldn't just keep it to myself and 'be on the look out', so of course I was open and honest about what happened and told Lily.
This resulted in an extremely intense response (understandably) within Lily, feeling like this friend betrayed them and confusion over why they distanced over time. Generally hatred and seeing this friend as the devil (literally what Lily said).
This was confusing for me, and I also had to manage being a supportive partner, Lily was upset that I even considered or was concerned after receiving this heads-up from the friend. Eventually this all calms down. The only other information I got from the friend to clarify these patterns of behavior was their own experience of emotionally burning out after being Lily's main source of support for a long time.

A month later a second incident occurs which I realize in retrospect changed everything for me. There is a moment where Lily tells me that she still texts her ex. Every. Single. Day. She tells me this in a way that's open and assures me she will move forward in whichever was I feel comfortable. She brought it up because she had a talk with a friend who said that every day is a bit too much, but Lily felt a sense of pride about how different and unconventional their break-up had evolved.

I was shocked and confused. Why this level of frequency? What's the nature of their relationship? Are there any lingering feelings on either side? Overall a sense of betrayal, since I had a certain perception of our history at the time which turned out to be false (I did not know how close their connection still was).
After consultation with some close friends, one of which advised me that he "doesn't even text his best friends every day" I trusted my feelings a bit more and communicated how I felt to Lily and that it felt inappropriate.

Again, I was met with re-assurance and agreement. Lily even shared some of the texts openly, fostering some trust from me. But the texts seen happened to be the ex sharing feelings of inadequacy/loneliness/not feeling attractive/etc. essentially seeking some emotional support and reassurance.
That stuck with me and my trust began to erode over time and my doubt began to grow like a cancer.

After this there were two months where we continued to have many conversations about the nature of their relationship, and me trying to figure out my boundaries/discomfort. Certain events and her seeming hesitation to reduce the level of contact also affected my doubt/distrust. It got really really bad for me, even though to Lily's credit she did reduce contact and communicated the issue to her ex.
The distrust cancer kept growing as we worked through more discussions and I had feelings that there were inconsistencies to the story. There would be moments of feeling gaslit, there would be moments of "no we can't go through the texts to give you reassurance because that means you don't trust me and that means we have a bigger problem". Something was not adding up, a voice in my head and my gut kept telling me something is off.

At this moment I do something I'm not proud of. I look through her texts without permission.

This is my most painful discovery of betrayal. I find that what I was told over many months of the nature of their relationship was dishonest. I find an extremely deep connection that lasted the entire time of my relationship with Lily. Emotional support from both sides, occasional meet-ups, discussion of their relationship, etc. Definitely many things that are generally considered inappropriate level of friendship and conversation with an ex while in a new relationship, especially considering I did not know about these things.
This wasn't full blown conventional emotional cheating, there didn't seem to be any hint of wanting to be together again, the ex was eventually notified that Lily was in a relationship, etc. But still, very concerning to me, some expressions of loves, some reminiscing, but mostly just a really deep connection and Lily relying heavily on the ex as emotional support.

After I find this out, I'm sick. Physically and mentally. I took a few days to bring it up and remember throwing up. Couldn't sleep. Couldn't eat. Basically all the usual signs of betrayal trauma and shock.
I decide to tell her the truth, what I did and what I found and that I just wanted to understand and wanted to talk about it.

Can you guess what happened?
Rage and DARVO. I was told I was the one who still has feelings for my ex because I'm so paranoid of Lily having feelings for theirs.
Basically a big rupture, a lot of anger directed towards me.

The next four months were a living hell. We tried couples therapy with someone we both thought was really good choice at the time (he was good in many ways, but not a betrayal trauma, or cluster-b specialist which would have greatly helped).

I was struggling so hard just to understand Lily and the behaviors and what was going on. So confused. In so much pain from the betrayal. There was no validation or admission that there was any dishonesty for 4 months. My perception of Lily would sour at times but I held on to hope.
Lily would be extremely sensitive to any perceived criticism. Lots of defensiveness. Lots of emotional manipulation (what felt like at the time to me). Lots of very cruel and mean language directed towards me. Moments of peace where everything is fine, then another moment something would set off Lily and I would feel helpless. No room to express anything from 'my side', no room for logic. Only to concede, validate, or emotionally respond in a way that Lily was looking for. I was losing my own integrity through these conflicts, struggling to maintain a sense of self. Struggling to stick to my reality. Sometimes after conflicts she would seemingly feel some shame and apologize and say she wanted to be better, but when pressed about what she is apologizing for the response would be vague.

I struggled to cope with the fall-out of betrayal trauma. Not receiving the validation and accountability/recognition that I needed from Lily to move forward and re-build trust. I suspected she was un-able to confront that she did something really bad, because she already greatly thought badly of herself.

In fact, Lily struggled with feelings of worthlessness, emptiness, chronic depression, anxiety, sometimes panic attacks throughout her life. She told me she had childhood trauma from a sibling and nanny, and I suspected her father was emotionally unavailable in childhood due their war trauma.

Through trying to understand her and these experiences I thought for a time perhaps it is vulnerable narcissism.

Some other relevant patterns were: possibly unclear sense of self since Lily would frequently express that she didn't know what she was doing with her life and career (though in reality it had been relatively consistent). Ambitious dreams/goals that would fluctuate or I would be surprised to hear new ideas of future plans. Very strong opinions on social and political matters. Sometimes problems with anger (and clearly in moments of emotional dysregulation the anger was towards me). She had feelings of being un-lovable and would project that onto me "I don't think you love me", which was difficult to re-assure whilst working through betrayal trauma and all of these intense conflicts with averse aggressive communication strategies.
All of discounting, abandoning, threatening (self), blaming, belittling, lots of guilt-tripping, derailing were experienced.

Lily would also sometimes have trouble with assuming mal-intent in social settings and that would be tricky for me to navigate. Especially when I knew the other party. I would have trouble validating, and feeling like she wanted me to agree with her, while actually thinking "I don't think this person was out to get you". There were a couple situations where I saw a struggle to empathize and sacrifice personal needs for mutual friends with a child. Lily also had lots of health anxiety, random things would come up and require a lot of support and re-assurance that it's not the worst case scenario, will go away on its own. Generally lots of emotional support and advice required.
Tumultuous history of close friendships falling apart.

Eventually there was a moment where she came around and admitted some dishonesty, and there was even some effort to atone, with apologies and listening and validating to help with my betrayal trauma. Sometimes it felt genuine, sometimes not. Sometimes she would go back on the dishonesty piece and say she didn't want to be labeled as a liar, and it was strictly lying by omission etc.

Despite all of the above, I had also many incredible moments of good times, connection and love. I still saw so much compatibility and during the 'good times' felt very comfortable with Lily.

But all of this took a toll on me that was too great to bear. My motivations for life were falling apart. My progress in passions deteriorated. My friendships suffered. My connection with family suffered. I was just so consumed by this relationships and the problems and doubts and trauma I was dealing with.

As difficult as it was, I decided to break-up. I perceived my experiences and difficulties as a trauma-bond. Just enough good times to make it to the next dysregulated event. Un-able to go. Stuck in the FOG. Grieving the potential, the loss, grieving how much I had endured.

I kept reflecting on what I endured and if I can continue, and eventually made the decision to go. This was for my own health. Though I still struggled with the notion that perhaps I was losing the love of my life.

I broke-up with them a little over a week ago. It went okay. Sad. They expressed some regret, that they would have done things differently. That I was still the one for them. That they would need a lot of time to get over this. But they understood how much I was suffering and that I had to go for myself.
The next day they blocked me on social media, we went NC. I'm sure this was really hard on Lily, I do think they loved me a lot, and I loved them. I do think they are approaching this (what I heard from a mutual friend) with the perspective that we will not get back together in order to facilitate them moving on and healing.


I ruminate and ruminate and ruminate. I keep reading online. I keep trying to make sense of everything.

And then. I find a post on reddit about vulnerable narcissist break-ups and someone mentioned BPDLovedOnes.

I start reading about BPD and EVERYTHING CLICKED.
I consume all the resources, I find this forum, I watch all the videos, I realize I may have been wrong about the vulnerable narcissist suspicion.
Specifically there are moments of real empathy, and after reflection the emotionally dysregulated states did seem to be typically triggered by something perceived as abandonment, etc.

It's as if everything I was dealing with and trying to pattern match, all the puzzle pieces finally fit.

This provided a lot of relief over the confusion. A lot of things adding up and my experiences finally started to make sense.

But... at the same time... now I have a brand new struggle. How to move forward with this insight. A few options.

1. I carry on with my life and heal. Get back to normalcy, process things, etc.

2. I do not think anyone in her life has realized this before. She had been with an individual therapist for 6 years who I believe may not have been the best fit (they were mostly CBT and emphasized philosophy...) This insight may be life-changing for her, her family, her friends and relationships. How to proceed? Who to inform? What's ethical? I know it's not really my responsibility or burden but I can't help feeling like something can be done. Especially because I believe she WANTS to get better and alleviate her suffering.

3. I left because I was burnt-out for a long time and running on empty. I also lost hope mostly due to those dysregulated moments and their impact on me. Could the hope of improvement through the right treatment pull me back in for another attempt at building a life with the 'love of my life'? Do I have the capacity to commit to such a love? Or is it too risky for my own health?

 

[Naruto]

Hello BPDFamily, this is my first post.
I'd like to share my story and get some advice.
Thank you in advance for your time and thoughts.

This relationship began a little over a year ago. Before that I was single for about a year and before that had a relatively pleasant and calm 2-year relationship with someone who I eventually identified was not 'the one' for me. Although that 2-year relationship worked, I was plagued with some doubt and never had a feeling of certainty. The doubts specifically were around how much I was attracted to them physically, life-style match, and depth of connection through my passions. At that time it was challenging to make a decision without 'certainty' that I would find someone that was a better match for me, but I could not keep leading this person on.

A year passes after that break-up, I'm single, I feel more confident in that decision, and open to a new relationship. Then someone who I was familiar with through my passions and mutual friends, and attracted to, admits to me one day that they have feelings for me. I'll refer to them as Lily just to make writing this out easier....

At this moment of confession, Lily was actually in a relationship and struggling with a similar indecision as I did in my previous relationship (about lifestyle, passion match, etc.). I shared my experiences and advice, and what helped me make a decision etc. And also confessed I had some feelings for her myself.

A little bit of time passes (weeks), we stay in touch, I eventually find out she has broken up. At that time I expected things to go slowly since she was just coming out of that relationship but somehow things started to progress quite quickly. There was a moment where she assured me that this break-up was a long time coming for her, that they weren't 'romantic' for almost a year up to that point etc etc.
My naive-ass trusted this and went along thinking 'yeah this is strange to not have that much time after their break-up being ready for something new, but hey I trust what they are saying and this feels right'.

In fact, things felt really really good. She was exactly what I was looking for, and we connected very deeply over many things. Passions, life-style, values, intellectual pursuits, many things. And it didn't quite feel like mirroring, there was a history of these interests on her end, it just felt like a really good match. We could spend a lot of time together and not get bored. Passionate romance. Everything. I was cautious at first, but eventually 'let go' and let myself trust and fully commit my heart (in a way I did not in the previous relationship).

A few months start going by, everything is okay. Somewhere in the middle she mentions she's still friends with her ex (without elaboration), and I understand and don't think too much of it because.. well I had an amicable break-up myself and was trusting at the time.

Then the first difficult incident occurs. A friend that I had known prior to meeting Lily, an empath type who I trusted deeply, happened to have a history with Lily. They had been best friends for many years, until at some point this friend distanced themselves from Lily. This friend, after finding out how serious I was about Lily, pulled me aside at a gathering and checked in with me how things were going. I got the sense there was some concern and questioned them. They were relatively vague at the time and referenced 'concerning patterns of behavior'.
This was challenging because on one hand I trusted this friend and believed they had my best interest at heart, on the other hand I also had no reason to be concerned about Lily at this point. I also couldn't just keep it to myself and 'be on the look out', so of course I was open and honest about what happened and told Lily.
This resulted in an extremely intense response (understandably) within Lily, feeling like this friend betrayed them and confusion over why they distanced over time. Generally hatred and seeing this friend as the devil (literally what Lily said).
This was confusing for me, and I also had to manage being a supportive partner, Lily was upset that I even considered or was concerned after receiving this heads-up from the friend. Eventually this all calms down. The only other information I got from the friend to clarify these patterns of behavior was their own experience of emotionally burning out after being Lily's main source of support for a long time.

A month later a second incident occurs which I realize in retrospect changed everything for me. There is a moment where Lily tells me that she still texts her ex. Every. Single. Day. She tells me this in a way that's open and assures me she will move forward in whichever was I feel comfortable. She brought it up because she had a talk with a friend who said that every day is a bit too much, but Lily felt a sense of pride about how different and unconventional their break-up had evolved.

I was shocked and confused. Why this level of frequency? What's the nature of their relationship? Are there any lingering feelings on either side? Overall a sense of betrayal, since I had a certain perception of our history at the time which turned out to be false (I did not know how close their connection still was).
After consultation with some close friends, one of which advised me that he "doesn't even text his best friends every day" I trusted my feelings a bit more and communicated how I felt to Lily and that it felt inappropriate.

Again, I was met with re-assurance and agreement. Lily even shared some of the texts openly, fostering some trust from me. But the texts seen happened to be the ex sharing feelings of inadequacy/loneliness/not feeling attractive/etc. essentially seeking some emotional support and reassurance.
That stuck with me and my trust began to erode over time and my doubt began to grow like a cancer.

After this there were two months where we continued to have many conversations about the nature of their relationship, and me trying to figure out my boundaries/discomfort. Certain events and her seeming hesitation to reduce the level of contact also affected my doubt/distrust. It got really really bad for me, even though to Lily's credit she did reduce contact and communicated the issue to her ex.
The distrust cancer kept growing as we worked through more discussions and I had feelings that there were inconsistencies to the story. There would be moments of feeling gaslit, there would be moments of "no we can't go through the texts to give you reassurance because that means you don't trust me and that means we have a bigger problem". Something was not adding up, a voice in my head and my gut kept telling me something is off.

At this moment I do something I'm not proud of. I look through her texts without permission.

This is my most painful discovery of betrayal. I find that what I was told over many months of the nature of their relationship was dishonest. I find an extremely deep connection that lasted the entire time of my relationship with Lily. Emotional support from both sides, occasional meet-ups, discussion of their relationship, etc. Definitely many things that are generally considered inappropriate level of friendship and conversation with an ex while in a new relationship, especially considering I did not know about these things.
This wasn't full blown conventional emotional cheating, there didn't seem to be any hint of wanting to be together again, the ex was eventually notified that Lily was in a relationship, etc. But still, very concerning to me, some expressions of loves, some reminiscing, but mostly just a really deep connection and Lily relying heavily on the ex as emotional support.

After I find this out, I'm sick. Physically and mentally. I took a few days to bring it up and remember throwing up. Couldn't sleep. Couldn't eat. Basically all the usual signs of betrayal trauma and shock.
I decide to tell her the truth, what I did and what I found and that I just wanted to understand and wanted to talk about it.

Can you guess what happened?
Rage and DARVO. I was told I was the one who still has feelings for my ex because I'm so paranoid of Lily having feelings for theirs.
Basically a big rupture, a lot of anger directed towards me.

The next four months were a living hell. We tried couples therapy with someone we both thought was really good choice at the time (he was good in many ways, but not a betrayal trauma, or cluster-b specialist which would have greatly helped).

I was struggling so hard just to understand Lily and the behaviors and what was going on. So confused. In so much pain from the betrayal. There was no validation or admission that there was any dishonesty for 4 months. My perception of Lily would sour at times but I held on to hope.
Lily would be extremely sensitive to any perceived criticism. Lots of defensiveness. Lots of emotional manipulation (what felt like at the time to me). Lots of very cruel and mean language directed towards me. Moments of peace where everything is fine, then another moment something would set off Lily and I would feel helpless. No room to express anything from 'my side', no room for logic. Only to concede, validate, or emotionally respond in a way that Lily was looking for. I was losing my own integrity through these conflicts, struggling to maintain a sense of self. Struggling to stick to my reality. Sometimes after conflicts she would seemingly feel some shame and apologize and say she wanted to be better, but when pressed about what she is apologizing for the response would be vague.

I struggled to cope with the fall-out of betrayal trauma. Not receiving the validation and accountability/recognition that I needed from Lily to move forward and re-build trust. I suspected she was un-able to confront that she did something really bad, because she already greatly thought badly of herself.

In fact, Lily struggled with feelings of worthlessness, emptiness, chronic depression, anxiety, sometimes panic attacks throughout her life. She told me she had childhood trauma from a sibling and nanny, and I suspected her father was emotionally unavailable in childhood due their war trauma.

Through trying to understand her and these experiences I thought for a time perhaps it is vulnerable narcissism.

Some other relevant patterns were: possibly unclear sense of self since Lily would frequently express that she didn't know what she was doing with her life and career (though in reality it had been relatively consistent). Ambitious dreams/goals that would fluctuate or I would be surprised to hear new ideas of future plans. Very strong opinions on social and political matters. Sometimes problems with anger (and clearly in moments of emotional dysregulation the anger was towards me). She had feelings of being un-lovable and would project that onto me "I don't think you love me", which was difficult to re-assure whilst working through betrayal trauma and all of these intense conflicts with averse aggressive communication strategies.
All of discounting, abandoning, threatening (self), blaming, belittling, lots of guilt-tripping, derailing were experienced.

Lily would also sometimes have trouble with assuming mal-intent in social settings and that would be tricky for me to navigate. Especially when I knew the other party. I would have trouble validating, and feeling like she wanted me to agree with her, while actually thinking "I don't think this person was out to get you". There were a couple situations where I saw a struggle to empathize and sacrifice personal needs for mutual friends with a child. Lily also had lots of health anxiety, random things would come up and require a lot of support and re-assurance that it's not the worst case scenario, will go away on its own. Generally lots of emotional support and advice required.
Tumultuous history of close friendships falling apart.

Eventually there was a moment where she came around and admitted some dishonesty, and there was even some effort to atone, with apologies and listening and validating to help with my betrayal trauma. Sometimes it felt genuine, sometimes not. Sometimes she would go back on the dishonesty piece and say she didn't want to be labeled as a liar, and it was strictly lying by omission etc.

Despite all of the above, I had also many incredible moments of good times, connection and love. I still saw so much compatibility and during the 'good times' felt very comfortable with Lily.

But all of this took a toll on me that was too great to bear. My motivations for life were falling apart. My progress in passions deteriorated. My friendships suffered. My connection with family suffered. I was just so consumed by this relationships and the problems and doubts and trauma I was dealing with.

As difficult as it was, I decided to break-up. I perceived my experiences and difficulties as a trauma-bond. Just enough good times to make it to the next dysregulated event. Un-able to go. Stuck in the FOG. Grieving the potential, the loss, grieving how much I had endured.

I kept reflecting on what I endured and if I can continue, and eventually made the decision to go. This was for my own health. Though I still struggled with the notion that perhaps I was losing the love of my life.

I broke-up with them a little over a week ago. It went okay. Sad. They expressed some regret, that they would have done things differently. That I was still the one for them. That they would need a lot of time to get over this. But they understood how much I was suffering and that I had to go for myself.
The next day they blocked me on social media, we went NC. I'm sure this was really hard on Lily, I do think they loved me a lot, and I loved them. I do think they are approaching this (what I heard from a mutual friend) with the perspective that we will not get back together in order to facilitate them moving on and healing.


I ruminate and ruminate and ruminate. I keep reading online. I keep trying to make sense of everything.

And then. I find a post on reddit about vulnerable narcissist break-ups and someone mentioned BPDLovedOnes.

I start reading about BPD and EVERYTHING CLICKED.
I consume all the resources, I find this forum, I watch all the videos, I realize I may have been wrong about the vulnerable narcissist suspicion.
Specifically there are moments of real empathy, and after reflection the emotionally dysregulated states did seem to be typically triggered by something perceived as abandonment, etc.

It's as if everything I was dealing with and trying to pattern match, all the puzzle pieces finally fit.

This provided a lot of relief over the confusion. A lot of things adding up and my experiences finally started to make sense.

But... at the same time... now I have a brand new struggle. How to move forward with this insight. A few options.

1. I carry on with my life and heal. Get back to normalcy, process things, etc.

2. I do not think anyone in her life has realized this before. She had been with an individual therapist for 6 years who I believe may not have been the best fit (they were mostly CBT and emphasized philosophy...) This insight may be life-changing for her, her family, her friends and relationships. How to proceed? Who to inform? What's ethical? I know it's not really my responsibility or burden but I can't help feeling like something can be done. Especially because I believe she WANTS to get better and alleviate her suffering.

3. I left because I was burnt-out for a long time and running on empty. I also lost hope mostly due to those dysregulated moments and their impact on me. Could the hope of improvement through the right treatment pull me back in for another attempt at building a life with the 'love of my life'? Do I have the capacity to commit to such a love? Or is it too risky for my own health?

 

[Naruto]

Also the TL;DR is:

- Recently broke up with someone I was with for just over a year
- It was everything I was looking for in a partner initially
- But certain things happened that were very confusing to deal with

- I was betrayed, found out they had a connection with their ex that was too close and misrepresented (texting every day, emotional support, etc.)
- Was confused, both by this betrayal and their DARVO response

- Struggled to heal and endure many emotionally dysregulated moments
- Experienced lots of conflict where she utilized averse aggressive strategies, resulting in significant psychological harm to me

- After 8 months of trying to heal from the betrayal trauma and endure emotionally dysregulated moments I made a decision to break-up for my own health.
- I was running on empty, and it was affecting my life. I also had to face the facts of what I endured and whether it would improve in the future (her behavioral patterns) (hope).

- A week post-break up I keep ruminating and have a light-bulb moment connecting all the patterns and realize it was BPD (more on the patterns, behaviors above).

- Now I have to figure out what to do with this insight:

A) Nothing, keep healing and move on.

B) Insight may be useful for the health of her, her family, her friends, etc. The impact of the right treatment could be life-altering. She had an individual therapist for 6 years (not a good fit for BPD imo), and she also seems eager to alleviate her suffering. Some elements of introspection were witnessed, but more-so the inability during triggering to regulate.

C) The relationship was legitimately a really good match for me. Lifestyle, passions, values, attraction, spending time together, etc. This is why it was hard to let go and face the facts. But after the light bulb moment, seeing how it is probably BPD, and with the idea that with the right treatment it may improve: this affects the lost hope that I had leading to the break-up. So I'm considering whether I'm capable of such a love, and whether the risk to me is worth it.
She went NC with me shortly after the break-up to facilitate her own healing and getting over it.

[HoratioX]

You shouldn't blame yourself. When you cross paths with someone with a profound mental or emotional illness like BPD (or CPTSD, anxiety, etc.), you want to ascribe their thoughts and actions to someone who is healthy. That's just normal. We assume people are healthy until we learn otherwise.

When that person is working actively against your finding out they are mentally or emotionally ill, the problem gets worse. How are you to determine what their true nature is when they are hiding it? And people with extreme mental or emotionally illnesses like this are highly skilled at hiding them from others.  So, blaming yourself for being gas lit and blindsided isn't fair to you. It isn't fair to anyone who has been in that situation.

Now, once you do know, if you continue to stay in that relationship, well, the issue of blame can shift. If you walk down the street and are mugged, no one should be able to say you could have foreseen it. But if you walk down a street full of signs that say muggers are out and you, yourself, have been mugged on that street before and you get mugged again, well, it's not vogue to "blame the victim" these days, but it's a little tough to say you weren't warned.

It sounds like now you're in that phase between after being conned into the relationship, disoriented by it, and then feeling you had to get out of it. You're sad because you're missing the good things and what might have been. If so, this is the period where you must be both strong and realistic -- strong in the sense of staying NC and realistic in the sense of not letting the comparatively few good things overshadow the comparatively bad things in that relationship.

You -- like many of us -- were in a relationship with a consummate liar and cheat. That is their nature. It may be the result of their illness, but that doesn't matter. It will manifest itself in precisely the same behaviors again and again. If you were to get back with them, it will happen again. If there ex is back with them, it is happening now.

Someone with this kind of mental or emotional illness is chaotic in actions but entirely predictable in behavior. Count yourself fortunate to have found out early and before any significant ties were bound between you and her (or them, as you say). Move on. Be free. Be happy. Recognize that while you suffered, you also dodged a bullet.

[Pook075]

Hello Naruto and welcome to the family.  I'm so sorry you're going through this and I hope writing all of that out brought a little healing with it.  Sometimes it really helps to just vent when you're around others who have had very similar experiences.

From the choices you gave for moving forward, option b (or option 2 from the initial thread) will turn into the nuclear option.  I went down the same path you did and was excited to discover a label for my ex, but telling her was essentially the last serious conversation we had in terms of a chance to reconcile.  She felt so betrayed, so angry, that she didn't talk to me for months.

The diagnosis was correct, by the way.  It was 100% BPD.  That part doesn't matter at all though.

For someone to get help, they have to be actively seeking help and want to put in the work to improve.  A counselor or therapist is going to work only as hard as the patient because they're just as powerless as you are to make lasting change.  Lily must want that for herself and be willing to put in the work.

Because think about this.  Let's roleplay for a second.  I say, "Naruto, I think you're a psychopath."

How do you respond?  How would anyone respond to that when they're being told something like that?  It's going to be very ugly almost 100% of the time.

For my ex wife, she started crying uncontrollably and said, "I'm not crazy, why do you think I'm crazy?"  Unfortunately, I shared that before finding this site almost three years ago.  When I told others what I did, they told me what I'm telling you.  It's a very bad move and it won't work like you think it will.

Now, if you want to mention it to one of her parents, that's a different story.  It would still probably lead back to you though and you'll receive scorched earth.  But at least her family will have an idea about it. 

Honestly though, it's probably already been mentioned and suspected.  Ask your old friend, she has insight and will probably tell you the truth.  It sounds like her relationship ended exactly as your did, and exactly as the ex boyfriend's did. 

It's that circular pattern of destruction and it continues until she wants it to change through real work.  Nothing else can change that though and it take serious efforts over a period of a few years.

[Naruto]

Hi HoratioX and Pook075. Thank you so much for reading and replying and offering your thoughts. I sincerely appreciate it, and it's really helpful to know I'm not alone.

There's some new development that I wanted to share.
I came across Lily's blog today and noticed a new entry from April 24.
It's a reflection on the relationship and herself.

It has a couple things that I want to summarize.
1. Some intro philosophy on relationship goals and living a good life
2. Reflection on the pain of the break-up: it's devastating, painful, but Lily chooses to see purpose in it and with positivity.
3. Reflection on positive: Lily opened up her heart like never before. Loved unconditionally through my imperfections. Quote about love beginning when we see the flaws but choose to stay...

IMPORTANT:
4. Reflection on her own shortcomings and contribution to the fall of the relationship:
- lack of self-love
- weak personal boundaries
- Acknowledgement that during times of hurt Lily lashes out, acknowledgment that this is learned behavior from parents, and that they actually just want tenderness and affection.
- Lily says she needs to do additional work to regulate emotions and communicate effectively
- Acknowledgement of abandonment fears and anxious attachment. Sees that she needs reassurance a lot, and that this sometimes manifests in extreme actions. Relation to childhood experiences.
- Reflection on therapy experiences and the work done thus far. The intensity of years of realizing your own trauma and shortcomings.
- Recognition that they do not want to take it out on others.

Then some other things and a recognition that there are defensive mechanisms of criticism and defensiveness that she is aware of. As well as being negative, but she wants to be a positive person.
Okay that's mostly all.


It seems like a very genuine reflection and also confirms some of the suspicions I had around self-awareness and ability to reflect throughout the relationship.

Now I'm really faced with a tough question. Again, I think I connected the dots too late, for the duration of the relationship I was so confused why she was like this, is it NPD? Does it not change? etc. But then AFTER the break-up everything connects and I realize 99% likelihood it is BPD.
Given the self-awareness and reflections in the blog, and my own new awareness, it seems I have more hopium to try again.

BUT I am SO wary of all the stories. We both suffered a lot. Is it too risky? Will it be the same? If it's different will I still suffer too much?
This is so tough

[once removed]

Now I'm really faced with a tough question. Again, I think I connected the dots too late, for the duration of the relationship I was so confused why she was like this, is it NPD? Does it not change? etc. But then AFTER the break-up everything connects and I realize 99% likelihood it is BPD.
Given the self-awareness and reflections in the blog, and my own new awareness, it seems I have more hopium to try again.

BUT I am SO wary of all the stories. We both suffered a lot. Is it too risky? Will it be the same? If it's different will I still suffer too much?
This is so tough

set aside bpd, or npd, for a moment. youre looking for signs and confirmation of particular pathology to guide your decision making. it may be confusing matters more than helping.

lilys blog post is about reflection and insight into the relationship, what went wrong, and lessons to be learned/do differently in future relationships. its recovery/healing focused. it might be good to do start with your own version of that exercise.

theres something about this relationship that didnt work on a fundamental level. was it her, was it you, was it simply both of you together (incompatibility)? you tried couples counseling; it didnt bridge this gap.

whether there is hope for the relationship (or determining to walk away from it) hinges on identifying what was broken about it, the work that would be required to change the trajectory of the relationship into healthier territory, and whether or not thats realistically possible. the outcome doesnt hinge on a diagnosis or lackthereof; at best, it informs your approach.

who were you in this relationship? who do you want to be?

were mistakes made on your end? what were they? what have you learned from them, and what would you do differently? how might that have affected the outcome, or affect a future outcome?

who was she (your perspective) in this relationship? how did it differ from you, how did it differ from what you want in a partner?

what would she say about it (her perspective)? whether you agree with it or not, what do you imagine (or what did she actually communicate) was wrong with the relationship from her side?

this will help give you clarity going forward, whether you decide you want to try again, or want to move on.

pathology: is she, isnt she, which might she be?

if she has been in individual therapy for six years, and hasnt received a diagnosis, it is unlikely that she would reach the threshold for a diagnosis of a personality disorder. it may be that she has traits - even significant or pathological (chronic, long term, showing up in multiple aspects of her life and affecting her level of functioning) traits. but that in trying to figure out which category her behavior fits (people with bpd and npd are capable of insight and self reflection - and insight and self reflection do not ensure compatibility), you may be overlooking the behaviors themselves, their impact on the relationship, and whether or not she is someone who is ultimately compatible with you.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder

it also suggests that bringing this information to light, with her or her family, even with the best of intentions, may be off, and would be seen as a significant intrusion. breaking up with someone, then telling them you think they have a personality disorder, with the hope that it may bring you back together, is not likely to work out in the way you would hope. both of you bringing outsiders into the relationship was a recurring theme and way of dealing with conflict that did damage over time - learn from that.

also important: she has signaled she accepts the breakup and is actively taking steps to detach from it and heal. if you decide you want to get back together, it would be best to lead with what youve learned about you, and why things would be different this time, as opposed to what was/is wrong with her. she would want and need incentive to return, just like you.

and if, ultimately, you decide to keep walking away, exploring all of this will help you re-affirm your position.

[SinisterComplex]

My friend I will give you my own welcome to the fam as well. 

You are definitely not alone. Also, the more put in the more you will get back in return so don't worry about being wordy or saying too much. This is a different place and we encourage sharing more. You are safe and among friends here.

Please be kind to you and don't forget to take care of YOU.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-