BPDs and NPDs successful: Why?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I've heard that usually that BPDs fail at relationships, however if it is to work, it is more likely to work if the other person in the relationship has NPD traits.

An NPD person would have a hard time with empathy, SET, mirroring and other types of skills that may be more likely to calm down a BPD partner.  If this is the case, then why would a BPD/NPD relationship potentially work in the long-term?  Wouldn't it be the most likely to fail?

Confused...

[captain5024]

I've heard that usually that BPDs fail at relationships, however if it is to work, it is more likely to work if the other person in the relationship has NPD traits.

An NPD person would have a hard time with empathy, SET, mirroring and other types of skills that may be more likely to calm down a BPD partner.  If this is the case, then why would a BPD/NPD relationship potentially work in the long-term?  Wouldn't it be the most likely to fail?

Confused...

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[Notwendy]

I have read that NPD and BPD tend to be more high drama and less stable. The connection is that it is intense and high drama but that may not last long term. However, both NPD and BPD are on a spectrum and what someone considers a relationship that "works" can vary so the relationships might too. Each relationship is unique. 

Where I think the attraction initually is that both NPD and BPD include love bombing, intensity, and mirroring, but over the long run, meeting each other's needs could be challenging.

I do know of one man with NPD who has been married a long time. They have kids, grandkids. I don't know if his wife has BPD or not. So it seems to vary in terms of ability for someone with either BPD or NPD to have long term relationships. I think each person needs to decide what works for them.

These are just my ideas about it. But perhaps there are professional resources- books, articles.

[kells76]

This is an excerpt from our thread on the book "The Narcissistic / Borderline Couple" (by Joan Lachkar, PhD):

...One may ask at this point what it is that bonds/binds or attracts such individuals together. It appears that two narcissists or two borderlines would never "make it" together or "do the dance," because of their dynamics and defenses. But together, these oppositional types seem to maintain a bond. I see each as the perfect counterpart for the other. For instance, the borderline holds to the fantasy that if he/she were better the other would meet his/her needs. The borderline's lack of impulse-control and the tendency to criticize and attack tends to cause the narcissist to withdraw. The withdrawal brings out the borderline's fears of abandonment and separateness which leads to more anxiety and attacks. In such a dyadic relationship, the narcissist is continually faced with his/her limitations threatening the image of perfection, beauty, entitlement, grandiosity, etc., and the struggle to turn to others in the external world for validation confirmation or approval. This withdrawal evokes profound anxiety in the borderline. The borderline, feeling threatened upon the potential loss of the narcissist, then attempts to win the narcissist back at any cost. The inclination of the borderline to subjugate self (be an "as if" personality) leads him/her to again reenact or play the role of the perfect mirroring self object for the narcissist and holds to the promise that he/she will improve ("do better". The narcissist then returns in light of this promise; however, the promise is impossible to keep due to the lack of impulse control in the borderline and the feelings of emptiness that are provoked by this pretense. Thus the cycle starts all over again.

...

It is important to recognize that in spite of the pain, these behaviors are not done on purpose; rather they are a replay or reenactment of early primitive infantile longings, yearnings and wishes expressing their current personal scenario that through repeating painful experiences over and over they will have a new, happy ending. Unfortunately, couples who rely heavily upon magical thinking and repetitive behaviors never learn from experience (Bion 1959, 1962, 1967; Lachkar, 1983, 1984, 1985) because conflict is not resolved through repetition.

Anything helpful in there?

[Notwendy]

This is interesting. I think this dynamic also happens between a pwBPD and a non who leans towards enabling/codependency. Add to this that the PD's can be mixed and both are on spectrum.

In the start of the relationship, both pwNPD and pwBPD can love bomb, idealize the partner and move quickly. However for the pwBPD- as the two get closer, there's the devauation phase. Both the non and the pwNPD would want the relationship to return to what is was but may respond differently. The pwNPD may withdraw, causing the pwBPD to fear abandonment and then increase the behaviors that attracted the pwNPD to bring the relationship back together. The non might either withdraw, and there would be the same reaction, or they'd increase their caretaking/enabling behavior to try to bring the pwBPD back to the "good side".

These situations are complicated and vary. BPD and NPD can coexist with other issues such as drug/alcohol use, abuse, infidelity- which increase instability of all relationships or they may not have any of these. The extremes of either BPD or NPD are problematic for all relationships. There's also the possibility of covert narcisism too.

Probably the best explanation is - why any two people stay together is not completely understood from the outside, and with the PD's overlapping, being on a spectrum and possibly co-existing with other issues, the label doesn't tell the whole picture. I think one factor is that- whatever is going on with any two people- a long term match probably means the relationship is meeting each of their needs for some reason. It may even be unconscious to them as well, if it's unresolved childhood issues.

[captain5024]

This is an excerpt from our thread on the book "The Narcissistic / Borderline Couple" (by Joan Lachkar, PhD):

Anything helpful in there?

Helpful?  It is a eerily written biography of my relationship the last 4 years.

But, if the BPD is in a relationship with a non-NPD, isn't it likely a non-NPD would just leave (perhaps sooner than a NPD)?  In addition, does the BPD sub-consciously crave the abandonment fantasy, and that is why the NPD suits her?

[Notwendy]

From what I see here, ( and this is a non professional opinion- just observation) is that most of the partners with pwBPD are not NPD.

From my own perspective, the more stable configuration is pwBPD and a person who also has a poor sense of boundaries and leans towards enabling and co-dependency.

Or another reason for the pair up is that we tend to seek out someone with whom we match our family of origin dynamics if we were raised in a family where someone has BPD, co-dependency, or alcoholism (the dynamics are similar to a family where someone has BPD). The dynamics feel familiar to them.

These situations also exist on a spectrum.

I've read about some explanations in different books (can't cite all of them) that make sense. One is that we "match" our partners on an emotional level- (not necessarily the same issues but through our own emotional experiences) and another is about boundaries.

Also who we are attracted to and who we attract is influenced subconciously. Our family of origin is an influence.

Anyone may be initually attracted to someone with BPD. If someone has emotionally healthy boundaries, they may eventually feel a discomfort- a mismatch with the pwBPD and decide to not continue the relationship.

If someone has too strong boundaries- then it's possible that the only person who can "get by them" is someone who doesn't respect boundaries. Someone with emotionally healthy boundaries would sense the strong ones and respect that and stay away.

If someone has too weak boundaries they may continue in a relationship with someone with poor boundaries as this somehow matches them. They may feel something isn't right but they aren't secure in "trusting their gut".

For the pwNPD in a relationship with the pwBPD- they respond to the idealization phase, the effort the pwBPD puts in. They can elicit this if they pull back. For the pwBPD I don't think it's craving the abandonment. I think it's the fear of abandonment. There's an initial phase where the pwNPD is also love bombing and being the "ideal partner" too, and so the pwBPD gets attached and then is fearful when the pwNPD pulls back. So they are both in this push pull dynamic.

With the enabling caretaking spouse- I think they respond to the idealization phase and get attached. (I think anyone would- it's nice to be loved) So when the pwBPD makes a request, or is critical- they try to fix the situation to meet the needs of the pwBPD.

[captain5024]

Fascinating stuff here. 

I've been diagnosed with NPD (although I think I'm doing a lot better now after years and years of therapy and acknowledgement of this condition).  In addition, both of my parents were alcoholics and likely Cluster-B's.

Like my therapist says, I can only change myself.  But, I find the reasons "why" fascinating.

[Goodpal]

I can see how the connection would work well. I began dating my pwBPD right after I divorced my ex NPD partner. My pwBPD put me high up on a pedestal real quick and before long we were in a committed relationship.

Having done some work on myself I knew I did not want to get into a dysfunctional relationship again. I had healed a lot towards the end of my marriage but there were still some issues I needed to work on, plus I was grieving the loss of my old life. So in a lot of ways I was very narcissistic in my new relationship. I was taking all of the validation and love bombing but knowing wholeheartedly that I was not planning on staying forever. I don't believe I fit the full criteria for NPD but what I was doing was very narcissistic - taking the validation but not getting emotionally invested. That is what kept things going for years, and probably the secret to making this type of relationship work to some degree.

There were a couple of times throughout the relationship that I tried to start planning for the future. Oddly enough, although most of the time she was upset that we weren't progressing that when we were she would pull away. She sent me a long text about us needing to start building a future together and when I responded she backed off. That was very strange.

So in the end I think I just kept things in the idealization phase and never experienced the BPD cycle because subconsciously she probably knew I wasn't fully invested which is in essence very narcissistic. Most of the people on this site are fully emotionally invested in their pwBPD which means they get to experience the full cycle which inevitably leads to devaluation.

[Pook075]

Like my therapist says, I can only change myself.  But, I find the reasons "why" fascinating.

That's because at the end of the day, you have to make a choice.  Nobody can do that for you. 

It's true for every person in the entire world, we all make choices to stay in our habits or change.  Good habits like exercising or eating healthy- those are choices.  Bad habits like smoking or getting angry- those are choices.  We all are in the same boat in that regard.

Others around us can make suggestions, bribe us, scream at us, etc.  But it still comes down to us making a choice.