My son's fiance has BPD or BP

[SKYWonder]

This is my first post and I have just discovered this board.  I can use help in navigating a relationship with my grandbabies' mother.  My son and her have been together about 5 years in a very unhealthy relationship.  So unhealthy that she has called the cops to threaten him when she can't have her way so many times to where it has landed him in prison.  They have 2 kids together and he has tried to do whatever she says but nothing is good enough for her.  She is sad that her actions have caused this and still wants him in her life but she doesn't know how to stop the cycles that have created this mess.  I am torn between it all and trying to help her with the kids, my sweet grandkids.  I pay the rent, utilities, diapers, and car note, plus... at least 3000 a month.  She doesn't let me come over much - always has an excuse, doesn't accept my help to babysit or anything but always complains about her not being able to work because she has no babysitter.  I am about done with her ups and downs but have been overly patient with her because of her situation.  She is the reason for him being in jail, she is the reason for her situation and she has now loss her car because of an accident - someone hit her.
Despite all of this, I am still reaching out to help her - she cancels any appointments she makes with me to help or come over but she is always able to let me know when she needs more diapers or formula to be delivered at the blink of an eye because she didn't realize how low she was. I can't stand for the babies to go without basic needs so I buy whatever they need.  My son has been in jail for 3 months now and I have only seen the kids for about 3 times. Today I was going to go over but she just texted me that she is busy.  She asked me Saturday for 100.00 for a Vape and food for the baby.  I did tell her I didn't have it because I am tired of funding her when she can be so rude out of the blue.

Her mother had Bi-Polar and left her when she was 11 with her Dad and grandmother to raise her and her sister.  This has left her so scarred and I thought she had Bi-Polar as well but recently have read up on BPD.  BPD seems to describe her behaviors much better than BiPolar, but I am not a psychiatrist and can't diagnose her just trying to understand how to help her and be there for the babies.  Other than that, I would have left her alone.  I like the S.E.T. that I read about and will definitely use that to help.  My questions are how long do I continue to pay for so much without just telling her to leave the rent house and go back to her broken family who are her dad and stepmom living in a one bed room apt using dope to cope.  She really has no where to go if I didn't help but she is not letting me come to see the kids much.  I don't want to put a demand to see them because that would not be a nice visit.  My son realizes now how he got in this situation but he doesn't want to leave her without the support and he knows her family is not good. 

She threatens him and me when she gets sad as a way to cope. She blocks us off and on and then she apologizes so sweet and asks us for help.  She has gone to the doctor for help with medicine to control her emotions and she takes mirtazapine and sertraline.  I don't know if she is taking them regularly but she ran out and no one took her to go get a refill.  She got so mean that I went to get her refills for her and took them to her house.  She was thankful but it doesn't make sense how she goes back and forth knowing that I help her with so much.  I just have to realize when she sends those long threatening text messages that it is not really how she feels; she is just not herself and needs help.  Days later, she apologizes and acts so sweet.   

Does anyone experience the same? I am at my end....

Please let me hear from you...

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Sancho]

Hi SKYWonder and welcome
It sure sounds like BPD. It could also be bipolar as well. You are certainly doing it tough trying to navigate your way through this with 2 babies to consider!

Can I ask what incident landed your son in goal? Living with my DD who has BPD I can understand how one can be pushed to the brink. The mood swings, verbal - and perhaps physical - abuse can be constant, the need for constant attention etc is so demanding.

One of the experiences I have in relation to my BPD DD is being ‘cornered’. I have often wanted to walk away, but then I think about what happens then! I put in a boundary but circumstances change – and that boundary is not relevant any more.

I think you are at a point of looking at the situation and asking yourself ‘Where do I go from here?’ I think you need to take your time to think this through and work on how things can look going forward.

In some ways it also depends on what your son intends to do both in the short term and the long term. I think this would be the first step – finding out what his plans are and how he sees the situation working out from his perspective. Will he:
-   Go back and live with her and the children?
-   Decide he can’t live there and find a place for himself to live?
-   Come and live with you at least for a period of time?

If he lives separately, will he have regular times with the children coming to him or will that be blocked do you think?

The other thing that I think is important is the age of the children. In my mind there is a big difference when children become school age because there are other people involved and are able to keep an eye out for the children’s welfare. In the stage before that they are really dependent on the ability of the major care giver – often with little or no support from other people. In fact a parent with BPD can isolate their children because if their children attach to someone else the abandonment experience is huge.

I am thinking I should just post this much, because I think answers to these questions are important before looking at issues of money, support etc. Going step by step is helpful in sorting things out I feel.
I hope you can post again and feel that you are supported. You have come to a place where we understand the chaos and complexity of the journey with someone who has BPD!
Thanks for posting . . .

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family.  I am so sorry you're going through this and my heart breaks for you.  My daughter is diagnosed BPD/bipolar and BPD seems prevalent in my ex-wife's family.  I understand this dynamic all too well and it's heartbreaking for everyone involved.

So unhealthy that she has called the cops to threaten him when she can't have her way so many times to where it has landed him in prison. 

Could I ask a little more about why your son is in jail?  There must have been something there for him to be arrested.  Is he awaiting trial still or has there already been a sentence?

I am torn between it all and trying to help her with the kids, my sweet grandkids.  I pay the rent, utilities, diapers, and car note, plus... at least 3000 a month. 

I don't want to sound insensitive, but you're enabling your daughter in law to do whatever she feels like on her own terms.  She gets all of the benefit and zero responsibility- why would she want anything to be different?  This feeds into her mental health challenges and emboldens her to be even more destructive.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't help her out at all, but where is her family?  Why are you carrying this burden alone?  And why are you allowing her to dictate the terms?

[SKYWonder]

Hello Sancho and Pook075,
    I am going to answer both of your questions:
 First, why is he in jail...

    My son is a computer geek and started his own business, which was great, but gave him little socialization and human contact.  His interactions with people were mostly online with people overseas in Australia and China for 2 years. So when he met his BPD girlfriend through a friend, it was exciting for him to have a girlfriend, and all her drama with other people and her family was just entertaining for him, and he thought it was just funny.  She was always in dramatic situations with others, which pushed her to him. He must have felt like a hero because he would save her from them. She moved from her Dad's to her Grandma's house. He didn't see these episodes as red flags at all.  He liked her spontaneous impulsivity, like buying a dog, but the craziest thing they did was drive to NY without planning. They didn't even pack clothes; they just drove a 2 sitter sports car to NY with no money for a week.  That was a nightmare at the beginning of their relationship.  I had no clue she was BPD at all because she never wanted to meet us. (At the most, I thought it was BiPolar because her mother had BP and left her when she was 11 years old.  She still does not have a relationship with her yet and she is now 22.) Just this month, I am learning more about BPD and it feels as though this fits her more. 

 I would just hear her on the phone talking to him, and he was just excited to have human contact.  I wish he could have left her alone when they came back from NY, because while they were there, she broke his windshield because she thought he was cheating.  She would threaten him and say she was going to call the police. She would always send me these long, terrible text messages that would arouse concern.  And now looking back, it is so easy to understand exactly what she was doing but at the moment it was very difficult. 

 Okay, to make a long story shorter, the threats went on and on for months. She got pregnant but was always having fits about something, and to get her way, she would threaten and scare him with the cops. It was ups and downs, more downs than anything, and now she is pregnant and insecure about everything. I hated her text messages in the middle of the night. She would start fights and jump on him, and he was so confused.  Then she did eventually called the cops and gave this story about him trying to leave her, which didn't make sense for him to fight her if he was leaving. He got an assault charge of a preg person because she bruises easily and with him restraining her and all...  He had a RO but she would apologize and cry how sorry she is and didn't want him to leave so they stayed together and got an apartment just before the baby was born.  But that was crazy too.  They had the baby and it got even worse.  She would be mad about any little thing he did or didn't do.  He would stay with us just to get away but whenever he tried to go back to the apartment she would holler and scream and call the cops. She is very pale and would bruise very easy so her story of what he did to her without him telling his side would always get him arrested.  He is a quiet and reserved person and was embarrassed to say she jumped him and they wouldn't even ask him.  They would just take him, at times, he would just run away before they came but it was too much.

Why was this not stopped?  Because within minutes she would be sweet on him again.  He would be in jail and she would be crying how sorry she is. As soon as he gets out on bond, she wants to see him. 

Okay so over and over again this happened.  New baby is growing and needs things and he is providing everything for the baby but she is still acting a fool. 

Mean while the court system takes a long time to finalize things and while waiting for them to have a trial or settle, the baby is involved with their relationship now.  She moved to stay with her grandma and stepgranddad in a trailer.   She stayed with them until she got mad with them and moved to her Dad and Stepmom in a one bedroom apartment.  Yes, she gets pregnant again and then he finds them a 3 bedroom house to move in.  They were in it good for 3 weeks and she found things to get mad about.  It is sad to think about no matter what is done, she is mean and mad but in between she apologizes and is so sweet again until she is not.

Court took 3 years and we wanted to go to trial but decided to just settle with 2 years in jail because a new judge came into office and the DA did not want probation - he was pushing for 5 years in jail.

So he is in jail because of her antics and they are in a rent house in his name because her family doesn't have a place for her and 2 babies.  He was told he would only be there for about 6 months to 9 months which he is going through the parole process now.  Hopefully he would get out soon.  It has been 4 months now.  I am paying the rent to help keep the place and because I would hate to see her move back to her Dad and Stepmom.  They use dope and give it to her to cope with BPD.
She has never worked and is always saying she is going to get a job. So with 2 babies - almost 3 years old and 6 months old- I am trying to make the best for them right now. 


Pook075, thanks for asking me about enabling.  That's why I am writing so that someone else can see what I don't see.  This is a long story over 4 years in the making and it is tough to write it all.  I am giving you pieces without all the details. If there is anything else you need to ask, please ask.  It is enlightening me as I write about it and empowering me to understand how this has happened.  How is it that it seems that I am taking care of her now while my dear son is in Jail.  As this was unfolding, he was more concerned about her than him going to jail...  For the first 3 months, he was in county jail and was able to talk with her everyday by videochat for at least 2 hours.  So they have been talking and if she needs anything, he will make sure she gets it.  He is really her therapy.  She depends on him heavily as she knows she has issues. She asked me to help her with a psychiatrist and didn't want to be diagnosed with BP because she was afraid to be like her mother and that they would take her kids away.  She has started taking medication for it and I have seen her pain.  I have grown to know her and have empathy for her.  So, as I am in this, I am trying to be hopeful that she can change.  I know now that when she has her moments of irrationality, that she is really having feelings of insecurity and abandonment.  I am learning to not respond and just be patient with her.  That is why I am doing what I am doing.  I want to be there for her and to let her know I am dependable.  She has been through so much instability, but now that she has my grandbabies, I want to help them be in a little bit more stable situation.  I don't want them to have to deal with her if she is living in a one-bedroom apartment with her mom and stepmom and sleeping in the living room on the sofa.  How will that produce a better outcome?

However,  it may be what is needed.  All in all, she is a sweet and kind person.  She is doing a good job keeping the house cleaned and taking care of the babies.  For these last 4 months, she has been fine with our relationship except once when she gotten in an accident last month.  She was hit but no one was hurt.  Her car is totaled now and she is upset about getting another one.  She got very upset with me about the child tax credit from taxes.  She started accusing me of stealing the money from the refund and saying she was going to report me to the IRS and you know how BPD works.  Irrational conversations, blocked me and then her grandmother texted me nastily about giving her money back to her.  Okay, you all... I have been spending my money on rent and utilities, etc.. and the tax refund has not come in yet.  I know and everyone knows this is an episode.  It would eventually end with an apology for misunderstanding so I respond just as nice as I can.  2 weeks later, BPD girlfriend apologized so sweetly and explained her mental behavior.  Does that count?  Does it make it better? No, but I do know she struggles with anxiety about abandonment.  I don't just want to abandon her.

My son for the first time tells me that he is in a better place in jail than to be with her in that house.  He says he can't be with her like this when he gets out.  I am hoping that he does understand better how to navigate this situation when he gets out.  I am hoping she gets the help she needs and he doesn't go to live with her or should I say, I hope that she doesn't talk him into moving with her.  I am hoping he has conditions to stay away although that didn't work the last time. (He had an ankle monitor to track him and he still ended up with her because of her manipulations.)  I am signing him up with a therapist as conditions for parole so that he can get himself to the place of realizing how she manipulates him and uses abusive words to control him.  He is planning on moving back to us so I don't know how long this rent house will be there for her.  I am just paying to get her to a more stable situation.  She really doesn't have a place and her family is very unstable.. (They fight with each other - the grandmother and the stepmom and her sister)

With all that, I don't want them together because of her BPD, however, I am hoping for good for her.  I am concerned about the children and don't know what would happen if I let go...

My son also said he wouldn't be able to see the kids if she moved with her family because she uses them as a weapon.  She calls him things like "dead beat dad" and vulgar things when he has provided everything for them all.

I know that was long but that was the shortest way to give you some history about it.  It is unfortunate that my son is in jail; however, it has been so much more peaceful and I have felt better these last 4 months with him in jail than ever in the last 4 years.  That is sad.  Before, I have gone to bed and in the middle of the night received text messages from BPD saying she is calling the cops again and then when i call him, he would be in a near by parking lot sleeping in his car because she would be mad at nothing or because he was on the computer where he works through the night.  She has torn up 2 TVs and 8 monitors, a 4000 dollar computer, 3 or 4 iphones and continues to threaten to tear up more things..  but let me end this... it is so much but at times it seems to be getting better although bad things happen and then get better.  My son does not express himself much at all but when he did he described the relationship like building a sand castle on the beach and the water crashing in and destroying it over and over again...

I need to know how to stop or if I should stop... and what happens when I stop... 

I mean, has the worst happened by my son being in jail? or for the next 18 years of my grandbabies living with someone who is not getting help.  Should I say forget the grands and just let what happens happen and don't be a part of their life? How would they feel when they grow up without this side of the family?  I know it happens everyday but hopefully I can be there for them and when they are able to remember, they will know I love them and have been there for them regardless.  They will be able to understand one day and see things differently.  When they do, I want them to know I was trying all that I could to make their life better.  I want them to say I remember when you would come by and give us things GiGi.  I remember your gifts. If I am not there, they wouldn't remember me at all. One Day they will understand their Mom's BPD and know that I cared for them...

Hopefully, you can understand a little bit more to help.

Thanks

[Pook075]

I don't just want to abandon her.

Thanks for talking that out and giving us more of the bigger picture- what a nightmare. 

As you said, you don't want to abandon her but at the same time, you don't want your son returning to her either since it feels like a familiar cycle.

However, I'd challenge you to look at this from a different angle.  What's best for you personally?  Not your son, not your daughter in law or the grandkids...but for you?

Because here's the thing- it would be great if she sought therapy and overcame so much of this.  And it's fantastic that you're showing her compassion and empathy.  But in the grand scheme of things, she has to choose to get better and nobody can force her to do that.  It's a massive step and requires so much work over a period of a few years.  Most never get there.

Again though, she has to choose.  Nobody can do that for her.

The same goes for your son- he loves her and he loves his kids.  Of course he'll want to reconcile and go back.  That seems to place you in the middle, but you can choose not to take that path.  That's why I asked what's best for you personally...you can't make decisions for anyone else.  But you can choose the best path for you that will help your mental health the most.

Right now, you're paying some serious expenses to support her and the grandbabies, to prevent her from going home to her parents.  And you listed several "valid" reasons to do that- to keep her away from drugs, to make sure she doesn't lose the kids, etc.  But here's something to consider.  What if your support is what's keeping her from getting actual help?

If you were to stop supporting her, she would take the nuclear option and cut you out of her life.  It would be very hard and it would be very ugly at first.  But at the same time, it's forcing her to choose what's best for her and the kids.  Maybe she chooses wrong, that's what everyone would expect given her past, and maybe things go badly for her.  But again, what if that's exactly what will need to happen for her to consider getting actual help?

I'm not saying to cut out support; that choice belongs to you and you alone.  I'm just trying to help you see more of the big picture here of what you're in control of...and of the things you have zero control over.  We all want to see her get better and we'd all love if they had a great life together.  But none of that is within our control.

Does that make any sense?

[Sancho]

Hi SkyWonder and thanks for the response.

So much of what you describe is what I have experienced - only from the other side of the coin. My DD with BPD was involved with a young man for many years. They lived with me for a period of time - and police were called a couple of times.

They had been separated for some time when I gathered DD was seeing him again. Over a period of a few short weeks things got seriously bad. The final episode took place over a few days. DD phoned me to come and get her - by the time I was well and truly on the way she phoned to say not to worry about coming.

The final day DD rang in the morning asking to be picked up and telling me where she was - which was quite some distance from where he was staying. Same thing - I'm on the way and she rings to say not to come.

In the evening of that day she rang again asking me to call the police (she was at his place). I told her she had to call them herself. She did this and they came. The result was he has been gaoled for some time.

It is quite a dilemma for me. DD was away from him and I was on my way. I know she gets huge abandonment issues whenever there is a breakup - so to avoid that she chose to go back. She then goes on with her life - and the young man is goaled.

The thing is that nobody knows the full story as I do. Just as you know the full story of what is happening in your situation. My DD's emotional abuse doesn't get told in these situations.

I am glad there is talk of your son getting support to understand his situation - and for his side of the story to be told. Hopefully it will also mean that he can find a way to separate - and also have access to his children, though I think they will become of pawn in the emotional turmoil of their mum's life.

Take your time to think it all through and decide what boundaries you can put in place and sustain.

Do you think your son would live with you for a while?

[SKYWonder]

Do you think your son would live with you for a while?

I do hope he will live with us for as long as he needs to in order to get established without her pulling him down.  We took all of his computers and equipment from his house the day that he reported to jail. She tears things up, and we didn't want them to get messed up.

Thank you Sancho for your perspective and sharing your experience with your DD.  Does she get therapy?  If so, is she taking medicine to help?  Has she acknowledged her part in what happened? It is good that kids are not involved. 

This is a great time for me to set my boundaries.  This week she has told me she wanted me to schedule one or two days a week to come and take the kids so I am going to see how that plays out
 next week.   

In the therapy program my son will be participating in, they will help him with custody and regaining his rights with his children so I am really happy about that. 

He was moved to a different facility last week and will not be able to contact anyone for at least 30 days.  I am hoping this is a good way for him to get his hooks away from her.  I would be thrilled if he came back and didn't want to have anything to do with her.

Thank you, Pook075 for your perspective.  That is correct, I don't control her getting better, or if she will get better.  Chances are, if she gets better, it will be a long road.  I do have control of my mental health.  I have control of what I want to allow and how long I will allow it.  I will choose what is best for me personally.  I like that!  At the end of the day it is about my mental health and my physical health.  I can't run myself down trying to control something out of my range.

I am expecting my son to be home in July or August at the latest so that is when I will stop the rent.  They will have to decide on the rest. And if he is not home by then, I will let her know I am done.

Thank you all for your support. 

[Sancho]

Hi SKYWonder
The fact that I knew my DD so well was important in making decisions - and yes there is a child involved and she is 15 now. So I understand the complexity of making decisions when there are children involved.

I think that all the theory around our decisions has to be framed to each individual situation. So my DD is low functioning and would be unlikely to hold down a job. She is extremely anxious about everything so can't make a phone call to make an appointment, only will have a doctor's appointment when there is a crisis. While she struggles to control her mood swings, they are very intense so she is often unable to. This means she has few friends that she can rely on or who understand her.

She is also very, very impulsive.

DD has been on medication when she was hospitalized on 2 occasions. She didn't keep follow up appointments, and failed to go to her GP to get repeat scripts. I fought long and hard to get her to take some meds - and I did succeed a couple of times - but it didn't last.

My situation is different to yours because I am dealing with a BPD Dd and you have your son's involvement in your situation.

Of course over the years I have had many thoughts go through my head about what I should do. Sometimes I would put up a boundary, only to find that the effect on my gd was terrible and DD was not capable of working her way through things.

So I started to look carefully at all the possible consequences of anything I was thinking of doing. I didn't assume anything.

It is so different for those whose BPD child is quite capable in many other areas of life - perhaps able to hold down a good job, manage a household etc.

When my DD was around 14 or so we went to a paediatrician who plainly acknowledged that my DD would struggle due to her low functioning. But he also said that my of the symptoms of BPD can lessen in the 4th decade ie when someone is in their 30s - and I am seeing something of this now DD is nearly 35.

Of course the BPD traits are still there, but I really have noticed a lessening of intensity - especially in relation to anger.

Such a complex, difficult road we walk!

[SKYWonder]

Thank you Sancho,  this board is so very helpful.  What you just said about your DD and the doctor appointments was even very helpful. It sounded as though you were talking exactly about my son's gfwBPD.  This just helps me not be so frustrated with things that I see.  I didn't understand so many things that she did or would say.  I was so happy to finally meet her in the beginning, and was trying to have a normal get-to-know-you relationship with her, but didn't understand why she would act weird and get upset for simple things.  We were walking on eggshells if she ever would come around because any little gesture would make her want to leave.  She finally showed up to our big family gathering for Christmas last year and everyone was so happy to see her and meet the babies for the first time.  Literally, she was there 5 minutes and got so angry at my son because someone was sending her a spam text message.  She blamed him and took her babies and left threatening to call the cops. (For what?- This is why he is in Jail- she would call the cops whenever she got mad at him)  She didn't want him to come with her and was screaming vulgar things.  She threatened to go back home and tear up his computer equipment. At first, it was the best Christmas ever when I saw them come through the door, but it quickly turned out to be the worst. It was disheartening because my family members didn't know her and why she was mad. It makes us feel like we actually did something wrong. When I would try to explain things to her or help out, she would scream at me and curse me out.  I had never ever dealt with anyone like that before and it would really make me feel terrible. Now that I know BPD is behind it, I can look at her episodes a little bit different; not just totally excuse her and allow her to act that way, but it helps me not take things personally. 
I can step back and protect myself from her abusive behavior without engaging with her. I may block her by phone calls or texts and just don't respond.  When she calms down and may want to apologize and have a decent conversation, I can talk with her.

I  do hope that my son can find a way to distance himself from her when he gets out.  I am more relaxed and at ease without being concerned with how they are doing (or just thinking of how she is doing with my son.)

[Pook075]

I didn't understand so many things that she did or would say. 

Can you name any particular events recently that we could talk out some?  We'd love to get you some practical advice on how to better handle these situations when they come up.

[Sancho]

Hi SKYWonder
I should have mentioned about 'blaming' and BPD because without understanding that it is part of BPD you can feel as though you are in the middle of a nightmare.

A person with BPD often has a 'target of blame'. In you case that target is your son - and sometimes yourself.

I am the target of blame for my BPD one. It is so extraordinary at times that it is hard to believe that someone doesn't see how ridiculous it all is. Your post has a good example:

She blamed him and took her babies and left threatening to call the cops. (All this because of a spam text). At this point she would be on high alert - due to being among the family - and anything will trigger blame to that person.

There is a lot of information around on why BPD people blame someone else. It is to do with:
- they can interpret a casual sentence, a look, body language etc as someone having 'a go' at them - blaming them
-they have a very, very fragile sense of 'self', so they can't accept what they interpret as criticism
- so they boomerang that feeling onto the 'target of blame' - or it can be others depending on the circumstances - and the main target is often the person who is the most supportive, most caring or them.

This is also why it is pretty unusual for someone with BPD - once again depending on how functioning rationally they are able to be - to accept responsibility or apologise for something. To acknowledge something as their fault is too painful - the self is too fragile to be able - like most of us - to say 'ok I messed up, but I can put that behind me'. They often can't do that. They just go over and over what has happened in their mind, pointing out to themselves how it was someone else's fault. Thus keeping the little concept of 'self' that they do have intact.

I hope this helps. Before I learnt about BPD I was being tossed around trying to make sense of it all. Now that I do have an understanding -always learning about this! - I find I am able to predict DD's response to things and then decide how I wish to proceed with whatever it is I am thinking of doing/saying.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders