Still Love Her, But She Moved On Fast - Any hope long term

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all,

I was in a long term relationship with someone diagnosed with BPD (untreated until the end). It was intense and deeply loving, we had some incredible times. She was my best friend, but also the person who hurt me the most.

The relationship was a rollercoaster with highs & lows, also steady periods. The lows were emotional chaos: a few suicide threats & self-harm, emotional coercion, and extreme pressure around marriage and kids. I often froze, appeased, or held back. Eventually, I ended things, even though I still loved her. I couldn't move forward in those conditions.

Two weeks later, she moved on and quickly escalated a new relationship, into our home, our bed. I felt destroyed. But part of me still misses her and wonders: is there ever a healthy path back from something like this?

Has anyone gone back after this kind of event? Did it work?

And what about the long term? She believes a solid commitment (marriage/kids) would fix everything, that not having it was the root of her distress. But I’m hesitant. That pressure was a big part of what broke me. Still, I wonder: could commitment actually stabilize things long-term? Or is that wishful thinking?

I'd really appreciate any insight or shared experience.

[BeachTree]

Hi all,

I was in a long term relationship with someone diagnosed with BPD (untreated until the end). It was intense and deeply loving, we had some incredible times. She was my best friend, but also the person who hurt me the most.

The relationship was a rollercoaster with highs & lows, also steady periods. The lows were emotional chaos: a few suicide threats & self-harm, emotional coercion, and extreme pressure around marriage and kids. I often froze, appeased, or held back. Eventually, I ended things, even though I still loved her. I couldn't move forward in those conditions.

Two weeks later, she moved on and quickly escalated a new relationship, into our home, our bed. I felt destroyed. But part of me still misses her and wonders: is there ever a healthy path back from something like this?

Has anyone gone back after this kind of event? Did it work?

And what about the long term? She believes a solid commitment (marriage/kids) would fix everything, that not having it was the root of her distress. But I’m hesitant. That pressure was a big part of what broke me. Still, I wonder: could commitment actually stabilize things long-term? Or is that wishful thinking?

I'd really appreciate any insight or shared experience.

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family.  So many of us have had this same story, yet it's still kind of eerie to hear someone else say something that I could have wrote about my relationship.

For your main question- is there a healthy path back?  There absolutely is if both of you choose that route.  Part of that is outside your control though and it would take work from both of you.

For your other question- could it work?  I hate to answer a question with a question, but BPD relationships ultimately come down to communication styles and validation.  A lot will come down to your ability to grow and understand what she's going through.  How much have you read about BPD so far?  And how long were you guys together?

[HurtAndTired]

Hi BeachTree,

Here's a little perspective from my experience. I have been with my dBPDw for 13 years. She put the pressure on me to move in, buy a house together, get married, have kids, all way before I was ready. I ended up doing all of those things, hoping that each of them would be the "one thing" that finally made her happy, that made her see that I was in it for the long haul. Unfortunately, each of those things only escalated her. It was as if she thought that the more I was "locked in" the more she could get away with mistreating me. Here I am now with a S4 who is absolutely wonderful, a house I love, but in a marriage that is abusive mentally, emotionally, and physically. I now am figuring out how I can not only safely exit the marriage, but also how I can protect S4 from Mom's dysregulation and unpredictable behavior. It will not be easy or cheap. I am afraid for myself and for him.

You ended the relationship because your gut was telling you something was off. Listen to your gut, it will never lead you down the wrong path. I ignored the misgivings in my gut to my detriment. Most of us here did. Your mind and heart will lie to you, your gut never will. It is your subconscious brain telling you something your conscious mind can't or won't acknowledge. Police and soldiers learn to listen to their gut for survival. Why do you think your gut was giving you danger signals?

The one place that we differ is that your exSO got into treatment. How long has she been in treatment? From what my therapist tells me, it takes years of hard work in, preferably DBT, therapy for there to be the chance of a real recovery/remission of BPD. If your SO has very quickly moved on with another man, I would say that it is a clear indication that she is still operating in "impulse brain" and has a long way to go before she can say that therapy is working for her. If you are really interested in being with her for the long-term, you need to let the therapy do its work before she will be in a place to be the kind of person who won't set off your internal alarm system. If you are ok with waiting, and ok with the fact she may never get there, you need to play the long game. Let her know that you are there for her, but stop it at that. Don't push because it will only cause her to pull back.

Even if you were to jump back into the relationship right now, nothing has materially changed on her part...yet. Keep the door open and let her walk back through, when and if she has done the work to ensure that things will be different this time. Remember, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

HurtAndTired

[ForeverDad]

That she quickly, within weeks, sought out another relationship is not a good sign.  Though that is often reported here by others.

It is often reported that some people with BPD traits are prone to jump out of and then into the next relationship too quickly.  Rebound relationships typically fail.  A person should give himself or herself time to recover and regain balance.  Recovery is a process, not an event.

We here in peer support, admittedly remote, recommend seeking a counselor or therapist to objectively delve into the whys and wherefores of the relationship and especially each person's issues.  As already mentioned, if she is to reach a measure of recovery, therapy would likely take a long time, even years, to find assurance of real progress.  And you can't do it for her.

Still, I wonder: could commitment actually stabilize things long-term? Or is that wishful thinking?

WYSIWYG - What you see is what you get.

Likely what she means by commitment is not the same as what you consider commitment.  When BPD traits are involved, the relationship often become volatile and imbalanced.  You may see it as commitment, but she may see it as you becoming obligated.  Marriage - and especially having kids - would be huge factors binding you two together.

BPD F.O.G. ... Fear, Obligation, Guilt

[BeachTree]

Thanks Pook075,

So many of us have had this same story, yet it's still kind of eerie to hear someone else say something that I could have wrote about my relationship

That's very interesting

For your main question- is there a healthy path back?  There absolutely is if both of you choose that route.  Part of that is outside your control though and it would take work from both of you.

I think realistically, we're probably past that, I don't think she'd want to try anymore. I probably wouldn't either.
Looking back, if I'd really pushed things before we broke up, I think we could have made it work together. But in the relationship, I just didn't have the space to think clearly. Insight on how we could move forward came after.

For your other question- could it work?  I hate to answer a question with a question, but BPD relationships ultimately come down to communication styles and validation.  A lot will come down to your ability to grow and understand what she's going through.  How much have you read about BPD so far?

I read a real lot after we broke up. I realised how I was falling into traps and fawning/appeasing a lot. I understand a lot now, that I would have loved to apply in the relationship, but I didn't get the chance. She jumped ship

[BeachTree]

Hi HurtAndTired,

Here's a little perspective from my experience. I have been with my dBPDw for 13 years. She put the pressure on me to move in, buy a house together, get married, have kids, all way before I was ready. I ended up doing all of those things, hoping that each of them would be the "one thing" that finally made her happy, that made her see that I was in it for the long haul. Unfortunately, each of those things only escalated her. It was as if she thought that the more I was "locked in" the more she could get away with mistreating me. Here I am now with a S4 who is absolutely wonderful, a house I love, but in a marriage that is abusive mentally, emotionally, and physically. I now am figuring out how I can not only safely exit the marriage, but also how I can protect S4 from Mom's dysregulation and unpredictable behavior. It will not be easy or cheap. I am afraid for myself and for him.

Oh my god that is so terrible, I'm so sorry you are in this situation.
That's a terrible trap, each time doing the "one thing" and it just escalates. I spoke to a psychologist and they said that's what usually happens, until they heal themselves internally.
She say's it's her trigger, and I can see that's definately true. Not having a baby is a huge trigger for her. But I feel you can't have a baby to fix something.

You ended the relationship because your gut was telling you something was off. Listen to your gut, it will never lead you down the wrong path. I ignored the misgivings in my gut to my detriment. Most of us here did. Your mind and heart will lie to you, your gut never will. It is your subconscious brain telling you something your conscious mind can't or won't acknowledge. Police and soldiers learn to listen to their gut for survival. Why do you think your gut was giving you danger signals?

Thankyou. That is very good advice. Every time I convinced myself to move forward, or she pushed me I got a very strong gut feel. It stopped me moving forward, but I did wonder if that was just me being scared of change.

The one place that we differ is that your exSO got into treatment. How long has she been in treatment? From what my therapist tells me, it takes years of hard work in, preferably DBT, therapy for there to be the chance of a real recovery/remission of BPD. If your SO has very quickly moved on with another man, I would say that it is a clear indication that she is still operating in "impulse brain" and has a long way to go before she can say that therapy is working for her. If you are really interested in being with her for the long-term, you need to let the therapy do its work before she will be in a place to be the kind of person who won't set off your internal alarm system. If you are ok with waiting, and ok with the fact she may never get there, you need to play the long game. Let her know that you are there for her, but stop it at that. Don't push because it will only cause her to pull back.

She's been in treatment for about 8 months. That's what I heard too, that it takes years. She believes she's in remission already and has reduced her treatment, that I was the cause of most of it. I think her actions show she's not in remission.

Even if you were to jump back into the relationship right now, nothing has materially changed on her part...yet. Keep the door open and let her walk back through, when and if she has done the work to ensure that things will be different this time.

Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen. I love her so much, and I know she still loves me. If we both took full accountability and had a joint plan, maybe, but I don't think it will happen.
The thing is, most of our relationship is really great. But the bad side is so bad, and she seems to bounce back like it's nothing, but it effects me much longer. She was always saying how much I was hurting her by not moving forward, but I see after we've broken up it's actually me that's been hurt much deeper.

Remember, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

A few people told me this!

[BeachTree]

Hi ForeverDad,

Thanks for your reply.

That she quickly, within weeks, sought out another relationship is not a good sign.  Though that is often reported here by others.

It is often reported that some people with BPD traits are prone to jump out of and then into the next relationship too quickly.  Rebound relationships typically fail.

 

Yes, it's a real shame she did that. But maybe it shows me the truth. That much of her "love" was actually need. I know there is real love, but the desperation, I think that is need.

We here in peer support, admittedly remote, recommend seeking a counselor or therapist to objectively delve into the whys and wherefores of the relationship and especially each person's issues.  As already mentioned, if she is to reach a measure of recovery, therapy would likely take a long time, even years, to find assurance of real progress.  And you can't do it for her.

She's very high functioning in society. Lots of friends, very likeable, great job. She is turbulent in all relationships, but people wouldn't believe the things that have happened behind closed door. To the outside it would have looked like this poor doting perfect girlfriend who's waiting for her boyfriend who's dragging his feet wasting her time. I think she would really try to display the illusion of progress in therapy to try to lock in a baby, she wouldn't be willing do to therapy for years first. She wants the baby now.
She is a great partner in so many way's. Not many women would put in half the effort she does. If only she could have controlled the bad stuff.

Excerpt
Still, I wonder: could commitment actually stabilize things long-term? Or is that wishful thinking?

WYSIWYG - What you see is what you get.

Likely what she means by commitment is not the same as what you consider commitment.  When BPD traits are involved, the relationship often become volatile and imbalanced.  You may see it as commitment, but she may see it as you becoming obligated.  Marriage - and especially having kids - would be huge factors binding you two together.

Wow. That's how proposing or having kids felt in the end, an obligation, not magical. It felt like I'd be doing it to relieve the pressure.

I do wonder if many BPD relationships stabilise and the BPD partner flourish with the right stability and support. I do wonder if I had known about a lot of this stuff early in the relationship and set firm boundaries, how things would have turned out. It either would have ended, or she would have been force to change. Either way, I wouldn't have been destroyed.

[Pook075]

I think realistically, we're probably past that, I don't think she'd want to try anymore. I probably wouldn't either.

For today, that's true...she doesn't want to try anymore.  But BPDs also go in cycles and circle back to what's familiar.  For her, the new relationship is amazing and the guy is perfect; until he's not.  Then she flees in a panic and cycles back around thinking about you once more.  That story has unfolded here hundreds of times with hundreds of members, and they all had the same past story as you.

When these relationships recycle, it starts all over again with high praise and unlimited love...she's the perfect partner once again.  Yet it doesn't last unless something else changes (you).  While you can't live up to those expectations, you can communicate more effectively to validate her emotions and help strengthen the relationship.  It's not easy though and ultimately, many of these relationships still fail.

I shared all of that to say this- you will probably have another opportunity and it might appear "perfect" at first glance.  That's something you'll have to prepare for either way.

[BeachTree]

Hi Pook075,

For today, that's true...she doesn't want to try anymore.  But BPDs also go in cycles and circle back to what's familiar.  For her, the new relationship is amazing and the guy is perfect; until he's not.  Then she flees in a panic and cycles back around thinking about you once more.  That story has unfolded here hundreds of times with hundreds of members, and they all had the same past story as you.

Ah good point. I think having a baby is above all for her though, so I think she'll really try to lock this guy down. Although she says she's trying not forcing things and "going with the flow".

I shared all of that to say this- you will probably have another opportunity and it might appear "perfect" at first glance.  That's something you'll have to prepare for either way.

Hmm good to keep in mind. It does seem like she's unsure whether she made the right decision. Either that or she's just saying that to try to keep me tethered. I really have trouble trusting what she says since we broke up.

[SnailShell]

Hi ForeverDad,

Thanks for your reply.
  

Yes, it's a real shame she did that. But maybe it shows me the truth. That much of her "love" was actually need. I know there is real love, but the desperation, I think that is need.

She's very high functioning in society. Lots of friends, very likeable, great job. She is turbulent in all relationships, but people wouldn't believe the things that have happened behind closed door. To the outside it would have looked like this poor doting perfect girlfriend who's waiting for her boyfriend who's dragging his feet wasting her time. I think she would really try to display the illusion of progress in therapy to try to lock in a baby, she wouldn't be willing do to therapy for years first. She wants the baby now.
She is a great partner in so many way's. Not many women would put in half the effort she does. If only she could have controlled the bad stuff.

Wow. That's how proposing or having kids felt in the end, an obligation, not magical. It felt like I'd be doing it to relieve the pressure.

I do wonder if many BPD relationships stabilise and the BPD partner flourish with the right stability and support. I do wonder if I had known about a lot of this stuff early in the relationship and set firm boundaries, how things would have turned out. It either would have ended, or she would have been force to change. Either way, I wouldn't have been destroyed.

Just to jump in a little - that thought at the end:

“maybe if…”

seems to catch a lot of people out.

 ‘Maybe if’ a person should listen to, is the :

‘Maybe if her BPD is well positioned to respond to treatment; and she seeks treatment, takes it completely seriously, and has a genuinely excellent therapist… AND she takes enough time.’

Even then, it might be hard.

I guess my point is - it’s not a ‘if only circumstances were different’; or ‘if only people were supported more’ thing.

It’s a “Will she seek out the support which actually is already available?” thing.

Because the truth is, even with an army of 1000 highly trained psychologists coming around to stabilise things every five minutes, it’d only be like holding the broken teapot together without glue. The moment the help stops in this scenario, the person falls into their actual state again (and if they’re ill, they’ll maybe even fight against the help too).

I have a feeling that there’s a reverse rule which could probably be applied to these situations:

The more she wants a baby and marriage, the less she should have it (within reason).

I’m not talking about planned, discerned childbirth in the context of a secure relationship; I’m talking about that desperation factor.

I think people (with or without bpd) need to be comfortable and calm within themselves before they ‘get the marriage thing’.

You can want it, and even really REALLY want it… but when it becomes a driven need to have it… that’s when there’s kind of a problem, y’know?

And marriage doesn’t cure that… nor do babies… if anything it might make things worse…

[HurtAndTired]

It does seem like she's unsure whether she made the right decision. Either that or she's just saying that to try to keep me tethered. I really have trouble trusting what she says since we broke up.

The fact that you have trouble trusting what she says is a major red flag. Trust is the single most important factor in a successful relationship, and what is most often lacking in relationships with pwBPD. Add to this that your ex wants a child ASAP and this becomes an extremely volatile mix. Lack of trust makes parenting incredibly difficult and is very detrimental to the child. This is the reality that I am now facing. How do you model healthy relationships for a young child when everything that you do or say can and is questioned or doubted? How does the tension between the parents when there is a lack of trust affect the child? Putting yourself in a dysfunctional relationship is a personal choice, putting a child in the middle of it ups the ante by subjecting an innocent soul to this dysfunction. I would advise to proceed with caution until you feel like you can trust her and that she can trust you, consistently and as a default.

[ForeverDad]

I think she would really try to display the illusion of progress in therapy to try to lock in a baby, she wouldn't be willing do to therapy for years first. She wants the baby now.

Wow. That's how proposing or having kids felt in the end, an obligation, not magical. It felt like I'd be doing it to relieve the pressure.

While most women do crave a mate and children, her mental health issues are  .

Marriage would likely keep you two together longer, but would it be a healthy and functional relationship?  You'd likely feel stuck all too soon and then what?  You'd likely feel obligated and put off ending the marriage with a divorce.

Having children would be even more distressing.  Divorce ends an adult relationship but parenting is forever.  Divorce just sets boundaries on custody and parenting schedule issues until the children are grown.  Think too how children would be impacted by an untreated parent during their entire childhood and beyond.

In my case my spouse also had father issues.  Our marriage was becoming more dysfunctional but then I had the clueless idea a child would make her happier, watching a child discover the joys of life.  Instead, she obsessed over him and drew away from me.  That's when I learned how intense her father issues were.  I came face to face with a reality...

Having a child does not fix serious mental health issues, rather it introduces vastly more complications since now there are custody and parenting issues added to all the other difficulties.

[eightdays]

The root of her distress is not external.   I filed for divorce a year ago, and it has been an ugly, expensive, drawn out war with no end date that is going to result in us never speaking again.   I wouldn't knowingly marry a disordered person again, even with a prenup.

[BeachTree]

Hi SnailShell,

“maybe if…”

seems to catch a lot of people out.

I this is exactly where I am. If only this, If only I that.
I cannot stop. I've learnt so much think if only I could have know back then, if only I could have given it one more shot.

It’s a “Will she seek out the support which actually is already available?” thing.

Once I forced her, to go, and she got diagnosed. Her attitude changed, she was enthusiastic with treatment and happy that she finally knew what was wrong with her. But importantly, the pressure on me didn't stop, it just got moved back a few months.
However, now we are broken up she's reduced the treatment. She say's she's suddenly better without me.
Ironically, I'm sure I'll be getting a lot more psychology to get over the effects of the breakup, than she is to manage her condition

Because the truth is, even with an army of 1000 highly trained psychologists coming around to stabilise things every five minutes, it’d only be like holding the broken teapot together without glue. The moment the help stops in this scenario, the person falls into their actual state again (and if they’re ill, they’ll maybe even fight against the help too).

She is quite high functioning. She can go months without anything major then blowup big time.

And marriage doesn’t cure that… nor do babies… if anything it might make things worse…

That's my gut feel.

[BeachTree]

Hi HurtAndTired,

The fact that you have trouble trusting what she says is a major red flag. Trust is the single most important factor in a successful relationship, and what is most often lacking in relationships with pwBPD. Add to this that your ex wants a child ASAP and this becomes an extremely volatile mix. Lack of trust makes parenting incredibly difficult and is very detrimental to the child. This is the reality that I am now facing. How do you model healthy relationships for a young child when everything that you do or say can and is questioned or doubted? How does the tension between the parents when there is a lack of trust affect the child? Putting yourself in a dysfunctional relationship is a personal choice, putting a child in the middle of it ups the ante by subjecting an innocent soul to this dysfunction. I would advise to proceed with caution until you feel like you can trust her and that she can trust you, consistently and as a default.

Yes, not a good environment to bring a kid into.

I used to trust her. But her actions the last year have destroyed that. She used to trust me, but me promising things and pulling out destroyed that.

At the end of the relationship, I was disposing of condoms where she couldn't find them. She got really angry at me because it showed a lack of trust, saying do you think she'd stoop so low. Then I found out my concerns were correct, she'd discussed stealing sperm with a friend.
Intellectually I know this is so wrong and a complete deal breaker in my head to even think about this. But for some reason with her it's not a dealbreaker for me.

[BeachTree]

Hi ForeverDad,

While most women do crave a mate and children, her mental health issues are  Red flag/bad  Red flag/bad

I felt really bad holding off marriage and kids. I felt trapped either way, cave in agree under pressure and hope for the best, or leave destroy her and lose the hope I had for our relationship. I know to the outside it looked like I was wasting her time, but I was constantly under siege. I think if I know what I know now, perhaps it could have been steered in a better direction.

Think too how children would be impacted by an untreated parent during their entire childhood and beyond.

I think that's why she is the way she is. Her mother is off the charts.

In my case my spouse also had father issues.  Our marriage was becoming more dysfunctional but then I had the clueless idea a child would make her happier, watching a child discover the joys of life.  Instead, she obsessed over him and drew away from me.  That's when I learned how intense her father issues were.  I came face to face with a reality...

Having a child does not fix serious mental health issues, rather it introduces vastly more complications since now there are custody and parenting issues added to all the other difficulties.

Yes she thought having a kid would resolve her issues. Since that was her main trigger. I feel it's a huge risk to bet on that. From what you and others say, it only amplifies things. Thanks for sharing your experience, hearing things like that make me more confident in my decision. I'm sorry to hear, it sounds really tough.

I do have doubts thought. An ex-girlfriend of mine (who was completely stable mentally) also pressured me hard for marriage and things escalated. I do wonder if it's the same thing with my current partner, except she is less stable mentally and exponentially more triggered by this. If that was the case, it's a real shame, because apart from these issues our relationship was great.

[BeachTree]

Hi eightdays,

The root of her distress is not external.   

I think that is about the best summary possible.
I do get drawn into thinking about external "triggers", but at the end of the day, the problem is within. I'm told it nothing externally will ever be enough, it will morph to the next thing.

I filed for divorce a year ago, and it has been an ugly, expensive, drawn out war with no end date that is going to result in us never speaking again.   I wouldn't knowingly marry a disordered person again, even with a prenup.

Very sorry to hear, that is a terrible end to a relationship, and thanks for the warning. It sounds like a really big risk if I had of gone forward. I wish I left the relationship much earlier now, but I guess I tried.

[once removed]

To the outside it would have looked like this poor doting perfect girlfriend who's waiting for her boyfriend who's dragging his feet wasting her time.

but isnt there truth to this?

if you set aside whomevers issues, isnt it the source of conflict?

she pushes aggressively for a commitment you arent prepared to make, but the relationship persisted in a sort of status quo, "too good to leave, too bad to stay".

I do have doubts thought. An ex-girlfriend of mine (who was completely stable mentally) also pressured me hard for marriage and things escalated. I do wonder if it's the same thing with my current partner, except she is less stable mentally and exponentially more triggered by this. If that was the case, it's a real shame, because apart from these issues our relationship was great.

this is the definition of "too good to leave, too bad to stay".

it looked the same in my own relationship. sure i wanted to be with her. sure, i wanted to marry her. but i knew, deep down, it was never going to happen, given the instability of our relationship, and ultimately, after a similar status quo, she realized that too, and jumped ship to someone who was committed to her.

i think a lesson for lots of us is less learning to identify dysfunction in someone else, and more learning to spot a dead end relationship, and make the hard decision to walk away.

which is ultimately what you did do, if not completely.

Two weeks later, she moved on and quickly escalated a new relationship, into our home, our bed. I felt destroyed. But part of me still misses her and wonders

this would rock anyones world, and psychologically speaking, would create doubts/second thoughts/what ifs. it rocked mine, too. suddenly, i was idealizing her, after having had one foot out of the relationship for many months, if not longer.

is there ever a healthy path back from something like this?

I understand a lot now, that I would have loved to apply in the relationship, but I didn't get the chance.

the simple answer to your doubts is that yes, you could have improved the relationship. so could i. thats the gift of hindsight: if we look for it, and we should, we can always find lessons, find ways we could have improved. though the relationship ended some 14 years ago now, and is ancient history, i can, to this day, learn lessons and see ways in which i could have coped better, been a better partner, less dysfunctional, less high conflict. all things that will benefit you and i immensely in the future.

but at the end of the day, none of that means the relationship would have been fulfilling, or that the two of you were meant to be. therapy cant do that. all the love in the world cant do that.

i think what you are experiencing today, is the fall out of a relationship that was too good to leave, too bad to stay, and existed in that state until it imploded.

[BeachTree]

Hi once removed,

but isnt there truth to this?

if you set aside whomevers issues, isnt it the source of conflict?

she pushes aggressively for a commitment you arent prepared to make, but the relationship persisted in a sort of status quo, "too good to leave, too bad to stay".

There is truth to this story. But the outside world doesn't see the double bind. I was never free to make an uncoerced choice. Commit due to pressure and hope for the best. Or leave someone you love who is unstable and tells you they wouldn't want to live if you left.
That's not a safe space to make life decisions.

it looked the same in my own relationship. sure i wanted to be with her. sure, i wanted to marry her. but i knew, deep down, it was never going to happen, given the instability of our relationship, and ultimately, after a similar status quo, she realized that too, and jumped ship to someone who was committed to her.

i think a lesson for lots of us is less learning to identify dysfunction in someone else, and more learning to spot a dead end relationship, and make the hard decision to walk away.

Do you mind if I ask how things worked out for her?
To be honest, I thought I was the problem for most of the relationship. I thought the problem was I couldn't make a decision. It's only now that I'm out, I see I was never in the right place to make a clear headed decision.

this would rock anyones world, and psychologically speaking, would create doubts/second thoughts/what ifs. it rocked mine, too. suddenly, i was idealizing her, after having had one foot out of the relationship for many months, if not longer.

That is what destroyed me. This is what made me think the relationship was never what she said it was.
After I'd stepped away, the pressure reduced, I was already wanting to come back with a plan to improve our relationship. This happening, particularly after all the things she said in the breakup about wanting me to come back, destroyed me. And it made the pull to come back extreme. Even though logically this is not something I would accept from anyone in normal circumstances.
I accepted a lot with her that, I wouldn't accept from them. As my friends/family pointed out, I wouldn't accept the way she talks to me about these things from anyone, but I did with her.

the simple answer to your doubts is that yes, you could have improved the relationship. so could i. thats the gift of hindsight: if we look for it, and we should, we can always find lessons, find ways we could have improved. though the relationship ended some 14 years ago now, and is ancient history, i can, to this day, learn lessons and see ways in which i could have coped better, been a better partner, less dysfunctional, less high conflict. all things that will benefit you and i immensely in the future.

but at the end of the day, none of that means the relationship would have been fulfilling, or that the two of you were meant to be. therapy cant do that. all the love in the world cant do that.

It's definitely pushed me to the extreme and I've learnt things that will help me that I never would have known about myself otherwise. It's also set me back a long way in life.
We were not high conflict, very low conflict most of the time.
I really wonder how it would have been if she had security from me. She says that me not giving her certainty and commitment is the problem, and that's possible. Most people seem to say, because the problem is internal not external, it would just transform to something else.

[once removed]

There is truth to this story. But the outside world doesn't see the double bind. I was never free to make an uncoerced choice.

of course.

i dont mean to minimize your experience, but to simplify the conflict. it is likely that youll face this sort of imbalance again.

Do you mind if I ask how things worked out for her?

i dont know very much.

i know the relationship after me lasted about 4 years. i know that things were volatile in the beginning, and that she was behaving in ways unusual to her. i know she got into her dream job, and became a teacher.

To be honest, I thought I was the problem for most of the relationship. I thought the problem was I couldn't make a decision. It's only now that I'm out, I see I was never in the right place to make a clear headed decision.

i think the point that im making is that good mental health is hard, and can involve emotionally hard decisions. you (we all) dont want to find ourself in a powerless place.

That is what destroyed me. This is what made me think the relationship was never what she said it was.

its a lot like being cheated on, in the sense that intellectually, it says more about the person doing it than the person its done to, but it doesnt feel that way. it feels like a total erasure.

the truth is complicated. its a coping mechanism. one that, no matter how much its about her, still hurts immensely.

I really wonder how it would have been if she had security from me. She says that me not giving her certainty and commitment is the problem, and that's possible. Most people seem to say, because the problem is internal not external, it would just transform to something else.

would it make you feel better to know that deep seated insecurity isnt something that another person (you) can cure?

i wouldnt stop there, though. i think the issue is bigger than "everything would have been peachy if you committed" vs "nope, even if you committed, she wouldnt have been secure."

at the end of the day, you were two people with irreconcilable differences. she wanted (demanded) more commitment, you werent prepared to offer it, but the relationship persisted in that state, until it imploded. thats the outcome in a relationship thats "too good to leave, too bad to stay".

thats the lesson, i think, or a lesson. when we find ourselves in hot water, if we feel powerless, if we defer hard choices, life can kick our ass. it happens; its not to beat yourself up about, but to learn from and take into future relationships.