Thoughts on a potential letter

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Empty threats or coercive threats are bad. Consequences aren't the same thing.

How is your approach working for you?

[flourdust]

Empty threats or coercive threats are bad. Consequences aren't the same thing.

How is your approach working for you?

[GaGrl]

FF wife,

I’m brokenhearted over recent events in our marriage.  As I prayed for wisdom for head of  household decisions, I kept coming back to the serenity prayer.  My only addition to this prayer would be “God grant me serenity to accept  the things I cannot change and don’t understand”.

I’ve prayed for courage to change the things I can.

1.  Money will be split into three pots.  Money earned by you, by me and by us.  (bank name) will continue to be deposit location for “us” money (real estate income).  :)etails to follow before the weekend.

2.  I will be asking Dr (Psychologist name) for a referral to a family therapist.  I’m deeply concerned about our children’s ability to form and sustain healthy relationships in the future.  It would mean a lot to me if we could come together in this effort for our children’s future relationships.

Love,

FF

I see where you are going.  I don't understand how you are connecting #1 and #2 -- I think FFwife will also be confused.

Are you trying to say that you want the family in therapy because you are concerned that the children do not have a healthy marriage as a model for future relationships?  If so, say that.  Otherwise, it's just hanging out there as an undefined second issue.

[formflier]

1 & 2 are related because she stomped around the house "preaching" to the kids about how I was doing this and that to her about money (projection it appears).

This was after our "behind closed doors" meeting broke up... .she took a private conversation public and "educated" our children on their evil father... .same broken record. 

Not a christian, taker of money, doesn't love her (yes... .she said that to our children).  She did finally hush... .but it was a public staredown over "biblical obedience".  That what she was speaking about was not for the children.

If I had to pick one issue... I would stick with family T. 

FF

[formflier]

Empty threats or coercive threats are bad. Consequences aren't the same thing.

How is your approach working for you?

I'm going to say ok.  When a "line" gets defined... .I see a lot of behavior that I would identify as running up to the "fence" and daring me to say something... .and then she says she didn't break a rule... .therefore I am victimizing her.

Or... .as in the case this weekend... .she blew right past the line.   "Never again will money go to your parents without mutual agreement"  Or she didn't/couldn't remember in the heat of emotion.

Hope this makes sense...

FF

[formflier]

2.  I will be asking Dr (Psychologist name) for a referral to a family therapist.  I’m deeply that the model of Christian marriage we are presenting to our children will hurt their ability to form and sustain healthy relationships in the future.  It would mean a lot to me if we could come together in this effort to protect our children’s future relationships.
 

I think I like this a bit better.  Great suggestion!

Thoughts?

FF

[Fian]

I think I like this a bit better.  Great suggestion!

Thoughts?

FF

I like the revised version a lot better.  The original version didn't have enough explanation on why you thought it was an issue.

[GaGrl]

I agree... .much more clarity on the second version!

[Fian]

In the other thread you said that she is now taking action to put the money back into the account.  Does that change your response to her now?  Would you be better served by writing a letter explaining how her actions made you feel?  Embarrassment at payment refused, fear of trusting her to honor a prior commitment, worry about financial problems caused by insufficient funds.

[formflier]

The money is finally back in the account as of this morning.  Technically it was done yesterday afternoon but wasn't available until today.

This was after she said she would put it back Friday... .then put it back a week from now (this coming Friday), then texted me she would do it on Sunday... .  sigh.

Also (just because this is funny)... .she said she didn't give the money to her Dad.  I said I thought the account was only in her Dad's name.  Yes... but the money is "for" you... .so I'm giving it to you... .in my Dad's account.

Unfortunately... .I have to admit... .she got me with that one... .I sputtered and was obviously incredulous.  If that is the reaction she was after... .she got it in spades... .

Now... to Fian's question.  No... .the money going back doesn't change the response.  I suppose P could talk me out of it, but I doubt she will try.  She will certainly "tweak" my response.

My principle:  "Never again... " for me really means "never again... .".  My wife can claim she doesn't remember all she wants... .that's not a debate I will have with her.

FF

[Larmoyant]

The money is finally back in the account as of this morning.  Technically it was done yesterday afternoon but wasn't available until today.

This was after she said she would put it back Friday... .then put it back a week from now (this coming Friday), then texted me she would do it on Sunday... .  sigh.

.

She put it back so she listened. Maybe it was about control, maybe not, but she appears to have tried to understand where you were coming from, yet you don’t give her any credit. Where’s the empathy FF? She has BPD, or traits of. You are an intelligent person, you know the dynamics at play. My ex abused and emotionally tormented me yet somewhere deep inside I know that this came from a place of enormous suffering. Your story makes me feel so sad for both of you.

[GaGrl]

If what you are primarily trying to go after is family therapy, I think you are solid in taking the position that the role model your children are seeing of their parents' marriage is not your definition of a healthy Christian marriage, and you want the family to work on that.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the religious background might be, a marriage in which marital conflict is played out publicly (whether in front of children or shared with the couple's parents) is not the ideal.  My parents established a Christian family, and my former in-laws were Jewish, and neither set of parents would have carried out private conflict in front of the children (short of something mundane like, "I asked you to stop at the dry cleaners today."

[flourdust]

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the religious background might be, a marriage in which marital conflict is played out publicly (whether in front of children or shared with the couple's parents) is not the ideal.  My parents established a Christian family, and my former in-laws were Jewish, and neither set of parents would have carried out private conflict in front of the children (short of something mundane like, "I asked you to stop at the dry cleaners today."

Agreed. This isn't a religious issue, but it IS one that therapists and courts take pretty seriously. My biggest leverage with law enforcement, therapists, and the judge and custody evaluator has been that my ex won't (or can't) stop creating conflict in front of the kid.

None of these professionals care what we do to each other in private, as long as no laws are broken, but they take exposing children to this behavior very seriously.

[Fian]

What if you were just to visibly start recording her when she does it in front of the children?  That might make her pause.

[Grey Kitty]

If you want to send her some kind of letter, point #1 (not putting your money into a joint account) is valid, and it sounds like you are already taking actions to protect yourself financially, by both doing that, and reducing (as much as possible) your joint financial exposure to her family.

I'm not a fan of "kitchen sinking" things, so even though point #2 is bugging you as a direct result of issues around point #1, I don't see a good outcome from including it in the same letter.

Why do you need any letter to get family therapy, if you can arrange it and pay for it.

[formflier]

New draft after P appointment.  P... .like GK... .was against mixing messages.  Asked me what was most important... .clear answer is conflict in front of kids.  That I a moving to stop or limit their exposure.

Still moving forward on money stuff... but it is less important... .and I have time.  Changes may take hold at start of next month, but more likely start of the next.


Thoughts on this letter?



FF wife,

Thank you for putting the money back.

I’m brokenhearted over recent conflict in our marriage that our children have been exposed to.  I prayed for wisdom for head of household decisions.   

We should be aware of the role model that we are portraying for our children and how that will affect their view of a Christian marriage.   Pastor (name) instructed us not to have conflict in front of our kids until we can model Christ centered reconciliation.  Sadly, we are not able to provide this model.  It would me a lot to me if we could come together in an effort to protect our children’s future relationships. 

I will be asking Dr (name) for a referral to a family therapist so we can gain a better understanding of the effect of conflict on our children and strategies for healing.

Love,

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Having only one thing in the letter is far better. 

That said, when you have the good version/mood she doesn't do conflict in front of the kids, and knows better... .when you have the paranoid, dysregulated version/mood, does a request like this work?

Before you send the letter, let me ask you what your goal is... .

What ACTION are you hoping your wife will take when she reads it?

How likely do you think she is to take that action?

[GaGrl]

It may be that the best that comes of family therapy is an agreement on what FF will say to the children to mitigate the conflict.  THat is, if FF wife can reach a point that she agrees the conflict is unacceptable and that it is best that FF step in and shut it down.  could be highly unlikely.

[formflier]

What ACTION are you hoping your wife will take when she reads it?

How likely do you think she is to take that action?

"Come together for our children's future relationships... ." Other than that... .I won't be giving any direct "control" of my wife... .in other words... .I won't be the "expert".

I WILL do whatever a family T tells me to do... .whenever my wife starts "teaching" them odd things... .especially about me.  

My P has several colleagues in mind that would be excellent... and she can consult with.  This means we can skip the first month or so of a "brand new case" where a new T is trying to figure out What the heck is going on.  Another reason that having a senior P is a blessing to me and my family.  Very likely the strategy will be to send kids to their rooms.  More importantly is to try to defuse earlier.  

I won't say this... but wife can refuse to go to family T.  She can try to block kids from going.  The important part is that I will be going and will take whatever steps needed to take my kids.

Hopefully... .the calm rational wife that I sometimes have will realize that she has painted herself into an undefendable corner.  

Think of how would look to a judge.  Judge... my wife was teaching my kids that I am not a Christian, is also recorded teaching them xyz about me.  I'm concerned about the impact of this conflict on their future relationships.  Will you give me a court order so I can get my kids to family therapy?

I hope it doesn't come to that, but there is also a saying in poker... .you have to play the hand you are dealt.  I've been drawing from the deck hoping for a better hand for a while and honestly, I think I have a strong one at the moment.

This is about my kids futures... .I choose to act to protect that.

Last thought for now:  P and I had discussion about mentioning Biblical Counselor.  Basic thought was that if we mention one of them... .we should mention both.  Also to clarify that BC has spoken clearly about conflict in front of kids... .which he has.

FF
 

[formflier]

It may be that the best that comes of family therapy is an agreement on what FF will say to the children to mitigate the conflict.  THat is, if FF wife can reach a point that she agrees the conflict is unacceptable and that it is best that FF step in and shut it down.  could be highly unlikely.

Yes... .something along these lines. 

We all know that nothing I do will be "right".  I am seriously interested in the "best" way. 

This past Sunday there was a public standoff... .that I "won" by telling my wife it was a matter of Biblical obedience to stop talking about this in front of the kids.  Then several times I said the word "hush".

She did eventually comply.

P has said it would likely have been better for me to say that Pastor XYZ said this was not for kids to hear.  "Kid's... .go to your room and shut the door".  Basically to focus on controlling kids... .rather than my wife.

Again... .know there is no right answer.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I see your situation with your wife as being stuck in between two models of the world, and her flipping from one to the other.

In one, she's a "modern" woman, working and having her own autonomy--and her own opinions.

In the other, she wants you to be the head of the household and for her role to be supportive and subservient--and obedient.

It's like she can't agree to one or the other and that's got to be really confusing to you.

I like what your P suggested--about utilizing the Pastor's direction. It bothers me to think that you would tell your wife "Hush" in front of the children. To me that's not good role modeling in front of them; it sets the boys up as feeling like they're more important than girls and the girls will feel like they don't have a right to their opinions in front of boys, particularly their future partners.

[Grey Kitty]

"Come together for our children's future relationships... ."

Uhm, let me re-phrase that: "Be healthy and stop dysregulating, and being paranoid about me for our children"

Can you see how asking for this won't do you any good at all? Either she is already there, or she's unreachable and unpersuadable. There's not much inbetween with your wife!

You said it here:

Hopefully... .the calm rational wife that I sometimes have will realize that she has painted herself into an undefendable corner. 

How's that hoping for the calm rational wife been working out for you so far? 

Focus on this instead:

wife can refuse to go to family T.  She can try to block kids from going.  The important part is that I will be going and will take whatever steps needed to take my kids.

You state it in negative, but at least there are two concrete actions your wife can take:

1. Go to family T.
2. Support (or at least not resist) your children going to family T.

Rethink what you want to say, perhaps using techniques like S.E.T. asking your wife to agree to one or both of these things directly.

[Cat Familiar]

I like what your P suggested--about utilizing the Pastor's direction. It bothers me to think that you would tell your wife "Hush" in front of the children. To me that's not good role modeling in front of them; it sets the boys up as feeling like they're more important than girls and the girls will feel like they don't have a right to their opinions in front of boys, particularly their future partners.

I know that your marriage is modeled on a type of Christian marriage where the husband is designated as the leader. At times, your wife seems OK with that, while at other times, she's openly hostile and disrespectful of your position.

What concerns me is that your daughters are observing/learning a dysfunctional dance and I think you're absolutely right to find a good family therapist.

My concern extends to the thought that in dating relationships this might lead to them not feeling secure in their own right to their bodies; you know that teenage boys, on hormonal overdrive, can be very persuasive. If girls believe that men are always to be obeyed, this could lead to problems... .

[formflier]

  If girls believe that men are always to be obeyed, this could lead to problems... .

Yep... .I talk a lot about that with my girls.

In fact, I present it as "the most important "earthly" decision you will make in life... is who your husband will be"

Because... .that choice will determine a lot about how their lives will go and how their children (my grandchildren) will be raised.

We talk a lot about women "lowering their standards" and the impact that has had on society.  It should not be easy for some boy (yeah... kinda a tone there... .) to win my daughters heart. 

Unfortunately... most guys will figure out the "minimum" and stay there.  Why try harder than you have to.

Kinda got off track there... .but yes... .the gap between what I want and try to teach to my daughters... .and what they are seeing... .is horrifying to me... .

FF

[empath]

Kinda got off track there... .but yes... .the gap between what I want and try to teach to my daughters... .and what they are seeing... .is horrifying to me... .

I think there may also be a disconnect with what you really believe and want to live out in your life and what you are doing, especially related to beliefs and practice of your faith. I know it can be tempting to use the system to your benefit - the ends justify the means kind of thing. But the things that we do form what we believe as well.

[Meili]

This thread has reached its posting limit and will be locked. Feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread. Thanks for your participation.