I’m itching to tell my HwuBPD that I want OUT.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I think, as a result of ongoing therapy, it’s getting harder to tolerate verbal abuse from my H.  Sadly, the only way out for me is to sell our co-op and purchase a cheap studio apartment, which will be extremely difficult and dangerous to try to pull off. My H has never been violent, but something like that could push him over the edge.

During  a recent visit from my husband’s biological adult son and his fiancé, I felt great!  I felt FREE!  I was able to be myself. I expressed myself freely, and engaged in many interesting conversations with our younger guests.  We exchanged ideas.  They even asked me my opinion on things.  We covered a million topics.  I was my vibrant, articulate, smart, and probably charming self.  I haven’t felt that good in a long time. 

Sadly, after they left to fly home (they live far from us), my H scolded me for talking too much!  He claimed I didn’t let him get a word in the edgewise.  I told him I wasn’t aware of this, and I didn’t understand why he felt he couldn’t simply contribute  to the conversation. He claimed I wouldn’t let him, which I think is absurd. Still, he was very angry with me. 

I’d also noted that whenever he did add something to some of our many conversations over the three days, it was ALWAYS NEGATIVE.  No matter what we were talking about, he would bring in the dark side.  At times, he’d even google the dark opinions and try to share them with us.   We all kind of ignored him. We’d respectfully glance at whatever he was showing us, but we’d continue our discussions, all of which were usually couched in a positive light.  We were all on the same page, mostly, looking at the bright side of things.
At times, I would try to be a mentor, imparting the wisdom of my many years on the planet. 

Apparently, we all had a great time, except for my H.  But you wouldn’t know it, until they left.

I agree with my dear friend who said my H was angry with me the whole time.  I was too charming and gracious.  I was too smart. I was too well-spoken. I was too engaging.  And worst of all, to my H, they were enjoying me, and vice versa. 

I think all of this added to my STRONG desire for FREEDOM. I need to be free to be me, in my own house.  But I’m not.  I’m stifled at every turn.  I’m sick of it. 

So that’s where I am.  I want out, but I fear his reaction. He thinks he’s a great husband.  He lives in an alternate universe. 

I have to sell, in order to get out.  I need the money, and unfortunately, I’ll need to split it with him, although I’m the one who bought this place.  But I refinanced with him. So it’s ok. I just want out. 

I’m not making any moves now, nor am I saying anything to him.  I’m biting my tongue.  But I don’t know how much longer I can take this. 

Thanks for letting me vent. 

Jazz

[JazzSinger]

I think, as a result of ongoing therapy, it’s getting harder to tolerate verbal abuse from my H.  Sadly, the only way out for me is to sell our co-op and purchase a cheap studio apartment, which will be extremely difficult and dangerous to try to pull off. My H has never been violent, but something like that could push him over the edge.

During  a recent visit from my husband’s biological adult son and his fiancé, I felt great!  I felt FREE!  I was able to be myself. I expressed myself freely, and engaged in many interesting conversations with our younger guests.  We exchanged ideas.  They even asked me my opinion on things.  We covered a million topics.  I was my vibrant, articulate, smart, and probably charming self.  I haven’t felt that good in a long time. 

Sadly, after they left to fly home (they live far from us), my H scolded me for talking too much!  He claimed I didn’t let him get a word in the edgewise.  I told him I wasn’t aware of this, and I didn’t understand why he felt he couldn’t simply contribute  to the conversation. He claimed I wouldn’t let him, which I think is absurd. Still, he was very angry with me. 

I’d also noted that whenever he did add something to some of our many conversations over the three days, it was ALWAYS NEGATIVE.  No matter what we were talking about, he would bring in the dark side.  At times, he’d even google the dark opinions and try to share them with us.   We all kind of ignored him. We’d respectfully glance at whatever he was showing us, but we’d continue our discussions, all of which were usually couched in a positive light.  We were all on the same page, mostly, looking at the bright side of things.
At times, I would try to be a mentor, imparting the wisdom of my many years on the planet. 

Apparently, we all had a great time, except for my H.  But you wouldn’t know it, until they left.

I agree with my dear friend who said my H was angry with me the whole time.  I was too charming and gracious.  I was too smart. I was too well-spoken. I was too engaging.  And worst of all, to my H, they were enjoying me, and vice versa. 

I think all of this added to my STRONG desire for FREEDOM. I need to be free to be me, in my own house.  But I’m not.  I’m stifled at every turn.  I’m sick of it. 

So that’s where I am.  I want out, but I fear his reaction. He thinks he’s a great husband.  He lives in an alternate universe. 

I have to sell, in order to get out.  I need the money, and unfortunately, I’ll need to split it with him, although I’m the one who bought this place.  But I refinanced with him. So it’s ok. I just want out. 

I’m not making any moves now, nor am I saying anything to him.  I’m biting my tongue.  But I don’t know how much longer I can take this. 

Thanks for letting me vent. 

Jazz

[ForeverDad]

I’d also noted that whenever he did add something to some of our many conversations over the three days, it was ALWAYS NEGATIVE.  No matter what we were talking about, he would bring in the dark side.  At times, he’d even google the dark opinions and try to share them with us.

We've all experienced that overwhelming negativity.  We wouldn't be here if the other had been consistently positive.  Hm, maybe that's part of what makes it a disorder, when a person is pathologically negative.

You are allowed to made decisions different than before.  That is, previously you were trying to stay and make it work, but you have a right to conclude it didn't work.

My first thought was that you must get your legal ducks in a row BEFORE telling him.  Interview* and select an experienced attorney you're comfortable with, find out what your rights are for your current residence and how much you may have to split, make sure you have an emergency GO bag, have the filing ready, perhaps combined with a TRO to reduce risk of DV, only then have him informed knowing you've done what you could to be safe.

* Privately and confidentially - you have a right to that privacy.

Just so you don't have to feel exposed overmuch having to inform your spouse, since conflict is a higher risk at separation time, here's what some have done:

I did not tell her I wanted a divorce.   I went away for a few days while she was served the papers, and my attorney wrote her a letter.

[CC43]

Well I'm glad you had such a nice visit with your young guests.  It must feel great to be like your old self.

Indeed, your husband only sees the negative side.  He feels left out whenever somebody else is talking or holding the spotlight, and he just can't hold the spotlight because of his negativity.  I call this the "permafrost" attitude, and I've seen it take over some of my loved ones.  While there may be such a thing as the adorable curmudgeon (think Andy Rooney, Mark Twain)--they present a relatable, quirky angle that your husband probably lacks.  Your husband is just a downer, and most people tire of hanging out with a downer pretty quickly.  In addition, I bet your husband has a very narrow range of interests and topics of conversation that he will engage with.  Once outside of that narrow range, he feels lost.  Moreover, when you show that you can engage with a wide range of topics, he feels not only left out, but jealous, plus a little incompetent.  Afterwards, he punishes you for that.  My husband (who doesn't have BPD but shares some of the traits) will "punish" me if it seems that I have a joyful, intelligent conversation with a near stranger.  He HATES that I seem to make friends easily, and he'll sometimes try to "sabotage" me by demanding we leave a party early, for example, and then accusing me of "flirting" or "ignoring" him,  throwing a little fit, all because I was having a good time socializing.  Or he'll accuse everyone of being too boring, and demanding how I can even stand to be with those people.  Just smiling too much could be a trigger.  With BPD, this behavior is an order of magnitude worse.

Even if you understand the behavior, it probably doesn't make you feel that much better, because you have to deal with it over and over again.  I just hope you continue to enjoy other people's company, because that's normal.

Hang in there Jazz, you've got this.

[MindfulBreath]

I feel you. It's often being around other, "normal" people that throws into sharp relief how dysfunctional our relationships are.

My BPDh is also EXTREMELY negative and has gone to great lengths to punish me in social situations when I'm "too friendly" to others (my interactions with gay men, in particular, seem to trigger him for some reason). At one point, he told me that he saw the expression of joy on my face when seeing close friends I hadn't seen in five years, and thought to himself "she doesn't look at me like that - she must not love me." He told me this after he'd mostly calmed down, after swearing at me, flipping me off, and leaving me with all of our luggage at the airport before finally coming back to at least get his bags.

I feel you. I want to feel safe expressing JOY! I want to LAUGH! I want to be with someone who also loves people and enjoys engaging in social interactions in an authentic way.

Just to let you know that you are not alone.

[JazzSinger]

Just so you don't have to feel exposed overmuch having to inform your spouse, since conflict is a higher risk at separation time, here's what some have done:

ForeverDad,

While I was planning to be clandestine about my search for a new place to live (without him), I realized it will be impossible. It’s because I will need to put our home on the market. I will need to show it, and sell it, so that I will have funds to buy a smaller place and live on my own, without his income. I’m retired, with limited funds.  Selling our apartment is the only way out.

Also, until I sell and have the money for a lawyer, I’m not going to be able to divorce him just yet.

It’s complicated, but I need to get OUT.  At the same time, I’m still in therapy. I’m still working on coping while I still live with him. I’m still developing my own life, outside of my home.  It’s the best I can do at this time.

I no longer love this man. He is not the man I married.  But I’m kind of stuck, for now. Still, I know I will find a way to live my golden years in peace. 

Thanks so much, ForeverDad.

[JazzSinger]

Well I'm glad you had such a nice visit with your young guests.  It must feel great to be like your old self.

Indeed, your husband only sees the negative side.  He feels left out whenever somebody else is talking or holding the spotlight, and he just can't hold the spotlight because of his negativity.  I call this the "permafrost" attitude, and I've seen it take over some of my loved ones.  While there may be such a thing as the adorable curmudgeon (think Andy Rooney, Mark Twain)--they present a relatable, quirky angle that your husband probably lacks.  Your husband is just a downer, and most people tire of hanging out with a downer pretty quickly.  In addition, I bet your husband has a very narrow range of interests and topics of conversation that he will engage with.  Once outside of that narrow range, he feels lost.  Moreover, when you show that you can engage with a wide range of topics, he feels not only left out, but jealous, plus a little incompetent.  Afterwards, he punishes you for that. 

CC43, you are spot in.

Indeed, my H couldn’t hold the spotlight with his endless negativity.  No one wanted to hear it, so we politely stayed in a positive mode, without being rude or dismissive.  His “Debbie Downer” remarks simply fell on deaf ears.

You’re so right when you say he’s limited in terms of topics he can discuss.  His topics are music,  and/or being a music teacher, period. He may talk politics, but only if he can beat up on people and “win” with his negative ideas.  I talked about everything under the sun with those young people.  (Well, they were middle aged, but that’s young to me.) It was the most enjoyable weekend I’ve had in years. So of course, I was punished for it.

I know what you mean about adorable curmudgeons.  You may have left out Bernie Sanders. My H is more like Ebenezer Scrooge. 

I’m hanging in there. Everyday, I pray that I can get out, and live in peace. In the meantime, I just work on coping and living my best life, outside of my home.

My fear is that I will experience dementia, because I’m always stifling myself. That’s not good. But this past weekend showed me that so far, I’ve still got it, thankfully.

Thanks so much for sharing and encouraging me. It means a lot.

Jazz

[JazzSinger]

I feel you. It's often being around other, "normal" people that throws into sharp relief how dysfunctional our relationships are.

My BPDh is also EXTREMELY negative and has gone to great lengths to punish me in social situations when I'm "too friendly" to others (my interactions with gay men, in particular, seem to trigger him for some reason). At one point, he told me that he saw the expression of joy on my face when seeing close friends I hadn't seen in five years, and thought to himself "she doesn't look at me like that - she must not love me." He told me this after he'd mostly calmed down, after swearing at me, flipping me off, and leaving me with all of our luggage at the airport before finally coming back to at least get his bags.

I feel you. I want to feel safe expressing JOY! I want to LAUGH! I want to be with someone who also loves people and enjoys engaging in social interactions in an authentic way.

Just to let you know that you are not alone.

Oh my goodness!  Mindfulbre, you definitely understand what I am dealing with.

Being around normal people, with him in the mix, was an eye-opener.  It really highlighted my dysfunctional life with my H. He too had a hissy fit and was very mean to me, after our guests left town. 

I’m so sorry  you had to deal with what you described.  Public embarrassment is the worst.  My H hides behind closed doors. 

I understand about wanting to feel SAFE to express joy. I only feel SAFE expressing joy around my friends. And of course, I have total freedom of expression with my therapist. 

Still, I rise, once I’m out of the house.

Thanks so much for sharing.  I wish you peace and joy.

Jazz

[awakened23]

I understand about wanting to feel SAFE to express joy.

Hello JazzSinger, I can relate to your situation and constant negativity.

I also can relate very well to the need to feel safe in expressing joy. I am able to express unbridled joy only in the absence of my uBPDw. When I experience joy interacting with others and it happens in the presence of my UBPDw, my mind is trained to hold back in my expression due to the fear of what may follow. If the happy connection is with a person of the opposite gender, there would be a post event-comment of me having a crush on that person or being attracted, if it is with a person of the same gender post event-comment would be that I may be gay (I am straight), or if it were with a once-close friend or relative I haven't met in a long time something negative to sabotage the re-connection of that relationship. Sometimes, happiness is not even expressed explicitly but sub-conciously shows in our facial expression and uBPDw would catch it and deride later on. I think the freedom and ability to express joy freely without fear is fundamental to our ability to thrive in life.  Yes we are capable of suppressing such emotions if certain situations demand it however being constantly under such self-imposed control can depress us.

This discussion has certainly helped me reflect on my own life and I think I am going to work on a new boundary in our relationship - that I will not hold back my joy in any interaction with others - and will deal with whatever post event negativity is thrown at me.

[JazzSinger]

Hello JazzSinger, I can relate to your situation and constant negativity.


 I think the freedom and ability to express joy freely without fear is fundamental to our ability to thrive in life.  Yes we are capable of suppressing such emotions if certain situations demand it however being constantly under such self-imposed control can depress us.

This discussion has certainly helped me reflect on my own life and I think I am going to work on a new boundary in our relationship - that I will not hold back my joy in any interaction with others - and will deal with whatever post event negativity is thrown at me.

Awakened23,

Thanks for sharing with me.  Indeed, our circumstances are similar.  I feel for you.

I definitely support not holding back joy in any interactions with others.  I think it might be damaging beyond what we can imagine. Plus, you are entitled to your joy.  It’s a wonderful human experience that you shouldn’t miss out on.

After being verbally beaten up for having a good time expressing myself with others, I decided I will not clam up, the next time we’re in a group setting.  Because if I do that, I’ll have no joy, except when he’s not around. 

In my case, because I’m a woman of a certain age, I feel like I’m inviting dementia, whenever I stifle myself.  I believe I am inviting brain fog. 

To counteract the fact that I can never fully express myself at home, I always put a lot of lunches with friends on my calendar. I also text a lot with friends, but it’s not the same as face-to-face, free expression.  I even enjoy tiny interactions with strangers.  I drink in every opportunity to speak freely and express myself openly. 

I get out of the house a lot too.  It’s very important that I’m around people who appreciate me.  I suggest you do it as often as you can.

Thanks again for sharing. 

Jazz

[PeteWitsend]

ForeverDad,

While I was planning to be clandestine about my search for a new place to live (without him), I realized it will be impossible. It’s because I will need to put our home on the market. I will need to show it, and sell it, so that I will have funds to buy a smaller place and live on my own, without his income. I’m retired, with limited funds.  Selling our apartment is the only way out.

Also, until I sell and have the money for a lawyer, I’m not going to be able to divorce him just yet.

...

Usually, assuming the home or your real property is owned jointly, either one partner buys it from the other in divorce or the court orders it to be sold with the proceeds split between the parties.

The family law/divorce procedures differ from place to place, so you need to consult with a lawyer. 

It would probably serve you well to get a reference to a good local attorney, and meet with them for an hour to see how things would likely go in your case.  Most attorneys will offer you an hourly rate for a quick consultation (anywhere from $200-$500).  I did this when BPDxw was telling me she would get the house and I'd get to see our daughter "one night a week," and claiming she knew the law and there was no way I'd get anything more than that.  It turned out she was being very dishonest (as usual), and getting a legal opinion helped me plan a way through.  I consider it the best $$$ I ever spent!

[JazzSinger]

Usually, assuming the home or your real property is owned jointly, either one partner buys it from the other in divorce or the court orders it to be sold with the proceeds split between the parties.

getting a legal opinion helped me plan a way through.  I consider it the best $$$ I ever spent!

PeteWitsend,

This is very sound advice.  A few hundred bucks for some legal advice will be money well spent.

Bt the way, I’m definitely at my wit’s  end as well.

Thanks sooo much for the advice.

Jazz

[PeteWitsend]

PeteWitsend,

This is very sound advice.  A few hundred bucks for some legal advice will be money well spent.

Bt the way, I’m definitely at my wit’s  end as well.

Thanks sooo much for the advice.

Jazz

You're welcome.  I know you're facing a daunting situation.  I'd add that whatever you decide to do, you can break it into steps or smaller parts to make it easier to deal with. 

In a "normal" divorce, each party can sometimes still sort-of rely on the other party to help out as they separate, but that's not the case here.  You have to have a plan to separate, file for divorce, and get settled on your own without the other party's help, and indeed, with them perhaps trying to prevent you from doing it, or even getting violent in doing so.  Break it into steps, and go from there.

[JazzSinger]

You're welcome.  I know you're facing a daunting situation.  I'd add that whatever you decide to do, you can break it into steps or smaller parts to make it easier to deal with. 

In a "normal" divorce, each party can sometimes still sort-of rely on the other party to help out as they separate, but that's not the case here.  You have to have a plan to separate, file for divorce, and get settled on your own without the other party's help, and indeed, with them perhaps trying to prevent you from doing it, or even getting violent in doing so.  Break it into steps, and go from there.

PeteWitsend,

This is so helpful!

I will break it into small pieces, as you suggest.  I need to take baby steps, because the task feels so daunting. 

Indeed, it would be wonderful to be able to sit down and plan things out with him.  But of course, that’s not doable.  I must do it all on my own, and mostly without his knowledge. 

I’d be lying if I said I’m not scared.  I’m terrified.  But I MUST save myself.  I MUST have peace, in my golden years. I MUST remind myself…

  If not now, when?

I cannot thank you enough.

Jazz

[MindfulBreath]

When I experience joy interacting with others and it happens in the presence of my UBPDw, my mind is trained to hold back in my expression due to the fear of what may follow. If the happy connection is with a person of the opposite gender, there would be a post event-comment of me having a crush on that person or being attracted, if it is with a person of the same gender post event-comment would be that I may be gay (I am straight), or if it were with a once-close friend or relative I haven't met in a long time something negative to sabotage the re-connection of that relationship. Sometimes, happiness is not even expressed explicitly but sub-conciously shows in our facial expression and uBPDw would catch it and deride later on. I think the freedom and ability to express joy freely without fear is fundamental to our ability to thrive in life. 

OH MY GOODNESS my BPDh ALSO accuses me of being a Lesbian if I pay too much attention to other women and accuses me of wanting to sleep with gay men. He has admitted to scrutinizing pictures of me with other people vs. him because he believes that I look happier with and am more attracted to them than him.

Ridiculous. I agree with you - I will also NOT suppress my joy anymore!!!! Joyful, expressive people unite!

[JazzSinger]

OH MY GOODNESS my BPDh ALSO accuses me of being a Lesbian if I pay too much attention to other women and accuses me of wanting to sleep with gay men. He has admitted to scrutinizing pictures of me with other people vs. him because he believes that I look happier with and am more attracted to them than him.

Ridiculous. I agree with you - I will also NOT suppress my joy anymore!!!! Joyful, expressive people unite!

Oh my!

Mindfulbreath, that’s outrageous! I’m so sorry you’re having to go through that. 

I found that after feeling joyful and speaking freely with our weekend guests, my “punishment” only lasted two days. It was a hard two days, and I felt like running out of the house the whole time, even when his mouth wasn’t moving.

But he did not break me.  First off, I understood that he had a hard time, because I was shining all weekend. Second, he had to try to regulate himself, because he’d just gone through a weekend where he was NOT the center of attention, and he couldn’t control anyone, including me.  I think having that knowledge helped me through the two days of punishment. . 

Bottom line, holding back in the company of others isn’t worth it.  I feel like there would be punishment either way.  They always find SOMETHING.

Enjoy your life as best you can.

Be safe, and thank you for sharing.

Jazz