On to Containment

[SoVeryConfused]

Hi,
One of the most stark things I'm noticing from our posts is how much this illness takes from parents emotionally and financially, and how often, it changes nothing (while untreated). This is a wake up call for me.

Over months, I have been validating, listening for the emotion first, not JADEing, answering the first calls of the day to give her a chance to be civil, etc. Instead, the behavior has gotten worse and more rage-filled.

For those reasons, and on the recommendation of my therapist, I'm trying to go very low contact. One response per day, only after work and only by text, responding to the most civil part of any text thread, if there is any. Why?

No amount of listening, gray rocking, or validating is calming the dysregulation. It returns to her favorite topics - I have never apologized. I don't support her  (I should know how and what to do), I am the cause of her problems, I ignored her in childhood, I parentified her, I abandoned her since middle school etc.

The other night, she asked me to come stay with her. I haven't seen her in months, so I agreed. Then she tells me to come at 10:30 pm instead. It's two hours away, so I say - sorry, that's late. But I will come in the morning. That led to raging about how I'm never there for her and twisting words that I said into something different. Mind you... she has called me every name in the book, and I was still going to go there.

I feel sad about moving to containment/low contact, but I can't see another way right now. I'm burnt out. You can only validate so much and hold off from JADE when they come at you with handfuls of grievances, one after the other.

I don't know if this is the right thing, but I'm out of ideas on how to engage with her. If others have gone this route, I would be interested in your experience. Thanks.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Pook075]

I don't know if this is the right thing, but I'm out of ideas on how to engage with her. If others have gone this route, I would be interested in your experience. Thanks.

For my relationship, it took a death of a close relative for my daughter to "hear me" and break past the fog that had always been there.  That was almost three years ago and our relationship has been completely different since then.

However, you're absolutely right.  There's nothing we can do if they're not mentally ready to actually hear us.  They have to realize there's a problem within before they can actually let the past die.  And there's no timetables for that, it's a personal journey for them.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I understand the frustration and despair, and that it's possible that with a little time and distance, you'll feel a tiny bit of relief from the onslaught.  But you still mourn the loss of your daughter to mental illness, and you wonder if she'll ever get the help she needs.

Let me guess, she's about 24-27, right?  And though she had outbursts when she was 16-23, now she seems to have gotten worse?  Maybe it's because the world is expecting her to act like an adult, and she's beginning to realize, she can't hack it.  I bet she started to have troubles "adulting" when she was 16-23, but in this day and age, young adults are basically treated like adolescents for a long time, and she "got away with" acting the way she did.  But by 24-27, the world expects her to be responsible for herself by now, and able to hit typical adult milestones like living independently, setting her own goals, managing money, having adult relationships, managing her schedule, planning meals, being civil with those around her, solving problems, managing her healthcare, insuring her own car/health/home, etc.  But that conflicts with her identity (poor little abused/mistreated child), and she resists taking responsibility.  Instead, she blames you.  For as long as she does this, she avoids taking the reins of her own life.

My BPD stepdaughter has gotten intensive treatment, but she's still resisting taking responsibility for her life.  While she has had some exposure to the real world (e.g. short-term jobs and firings, inability to sign a lease, running out of healthcare insurance, etc.), her underlying expectation is that her dad will not only rescue her, but continue to finance a resort-like lifestyle for her.  She still has a tendency to dredge up ancient grievances whenever she bumps up against the real world, such as not getting any job offers.  She has been desperate to move to an expensive city, thinking that if we set her up in yet another apartment, in yet another location, things will magically get better for her.  Her dad explained to her, her problems will still be exactly the same, no matter where she is.  Namely, that she will never be able to sign a lease without having income from a job.  That she has to manage a budget.  That for as long as she is doing entry-level work, she will likely have to live with roommates.  That most jobs involve some sort of commute.  That jobs involve work, and it's not always fun.  I have said to her, there's nobody preventing her from moving to the expensive city except for herself.  If she wants it, she has to make it happen.  Maybe it's not realistic this very minute, but if she worked at it, she could achieve it in a year if she really wanted.  But that's not what she wants to hear, because she's impatient, and her reaction is to retreat for a while, in avoidance.  She'll say it's too "stressful" to plan her life, or that I'm incredibly rude to say the only person preventing her from moving is herself.

Having said all that, I think that in order for her to realize that she needs to be responsible and take control of her life, she needs to live a while in the real world.  For as long as she's living in the parental home and treating parents like a bottomless ATM, she is resolute in blaming her parents for all her problems.  But slowly, in the 24-27 age range, I think two things happen.  First, her peers are busy with their adult lives (working, training/studying advanced degrees, dating, living independently, and maybe even getting married and starting families), whereas she still lives like a dependent adolescent.  Her peers don't have time or energy for sleepovers, partying or lazing the summer away like they used to.  Idle time just isn't as fun anymore, and she starts to feel lonely and left behind.  Secondly, it gets harder and harder to blame parents for her circumstances, because she's the one making all the decisions, good or bad.  Though she might say it's her parents' fault for getting fired, she can't honestly believe that's true.  Well she might say it was her boss' fault, or her coworker's fault, but at least it's not the parents' fault!  She probably has lost most, if not all, of her friends because of her outbursts, because who honestly would put up with that sort of behavior?  Does this sound familiar?  As the years roll on and the real-life experiences build, she can't help but feel more and more miserable, left behind and downtrodden.  As she starts to confront reality, she might rage and deflect even more, because it distresses her so much.  But maybe the pressure will build enough for her to realize, she needs professional help to cope with life, because she's just not hacking it.  There's no clear timetable for this, but my thinking is, it's only possible if she's on her own.  Otherwise, she'll continue to blame you and make you responsible for her life.

[Notwendy]

I noticed with my BPD mother, she'd make a request that I'd agree to, and then make more, or move the requirements, or decide that something I did or didn't do "upset" her.  Or she'd agree to a plan and then change her mind.

I wonder if this is what your D did by changing the time to visit to an unreasonably late hour.

It seemed I couldn't succeed with her. She'd remain in victim perspective. Ironically, BPD affects the closest relationships the most.

This doesn't mean you have to toletate it. Since the people most affected are the ones who care the most, it's difficult emotionally. I did go LC with my BPD mother. I didn't want to. It's not a choice. It's a last resort.

I think there are dimensions to LC. It's not only limiting amount of contact. It's also about what we share and what we can tolerate. I would still call my mother but decide to not share personal emotional information, or engage in emotional conversations. I could "check in" with my own emotional state. Sometimes I was home after a long work day and not up for a phone call. Other times, I could be available if she wanted to speak on the phone.

LC could be a scheduled call- like once a week and not being available at other times. It might vary. You may not want to have much contact at all now and then change this later. LC is based on you, your feelings, and what you feel you are able to manage.

[CC43]

Hi again,

I might add to Notwendy's low contact approach to suggest that you take the control, rather than have your daughter dictate the terms.  If you want a conversation, you call according to your schedule.  You might allow your daughter to call or text whenever she wants, but you deal with her messages when the time is right for you, such as after your workday as you described.  After all, you are a parent, not some sort of emergency nanny/nurse/ATM.  You are available to provide wise counsel and be friendly, not to be a punching bag.  If she responds in a hostile manner, you can extricate yourself and let her have her fit on her own.  If she sends mean texts, you can pretend you didn't see them.

Similarly, if she wants to see you, you could decline to drive yourself, and insist that she come to you.  Because when you go to her, she changes the timing and/or terms and totally tires you out.  She probably won't like this very much, because she's used to bossing you around, but if she really wants to see you, she'll make the effort.  You could say, I'lI be home Saturday afternoon if you'd like to visit then.  Personally, I mimic this approach even when it comes to gifts and financial support for my diagnosed BPD stepdaughter.  If she wants a gift, or she wants my help, she has to come to me in person and act in a civil manner.  I won't mail her gifts anymore, because she never acknowledges them, and she probably throws them away anyway.  So if she wants a present or money, she has to come get it.  If she doesn't come, then that's fine, I'll put it away for later, or I'll give the gift/funds to somebody else.  I'm not wasting my time, money and effort if she's determined to be disagreeable/ungrateful/demanding.  If she stays away, I take a little breather and go about my life.  I worry about her of course, but I don't have to deal with her hostility from afar, or feel like I'm enabling and rewarding her entitled/demanding/hostile behavior.  Make sense?  Now, your daughter will probably stand you up a few times.  My BPD stepdaughter has stood me up more times than I can count.  But if the plan was for her to come to my home, I'm not really inconvenienced, and when I'm not inconvenienced, I don't feel like I'm mistreated, and it's easier not to be mad at her.  When she doesn't show up, she's indirectly telling me that she's stressed out and not doing very well.  But it can't be my fault anymore because I didn't do anything to cause her distress.  Maybe it's best that she start to learn to cope better on her own.

[SoVeryConfused]

She is 24. She's always had jobs. Always done great in school. Didn't struggle outwardly until college. We were close but also not close - I know that seems weird.

She stuck close to me, but also kept me out of her personal life. She didn't confide in me, and if I asked questions about friends, plans, etc., she would say - You don't know them. (Today, she blames me for not being more involved. ha.)

I now realize I parented out of fear even before these traits showed up. She never lost her temper or acted out, but she could be cold. For instance, I never had the password to her phone. She was a good kid, and we didn't want her to think we didn't trust her, so we never forced it. But I realize now I was afraid of asking or saying no to her, even in high school. It wasn't a conscious thing - it's what I see now, looking back.

Through all of the raging and name-calling, I've stayed engaged, picking up the phone right after, validating, going back and forth on the same grievances. I've apologized, but not in the "right" way. My husband, her dad, sent her a cute message the other night, but because he didn't call, she got mad and said she wants no relationship. The parameters for keeping her happy are very narrow.

You know what I mean? She says jump. We jump. She moves the mat so we crash, and then tells us to get up and jump somewhere else. It's maddening. 

The goal is that she will start to realize my access is contingent on civil communication only. And anything else gets silence. I hope I can stick with it. It was a nice two days where it was quiet, but I'm getting lots of calls and texts tonight - "What is your problem?" Doesn't sound like she's making the connection yet. Sigh.

[SoVeryConfused]

For my relationship, it took a death of a close relative for my daughter to "hear me" and break past the fog that had always been there.  That was almost three years ago and our relationship has been completely different since then.

However, you're absolutely right.  There's nothing we can do if they're not mentally ready to actually hear us.  They have to realize there's a problem within before they can actually let the past die.  And there's no timetables for that, it's a personal journey for them.

That's a sad fact, and one I am trying to radically accept.

[Notwendy]

She is 24. She's always had jobs. Always done great in school. Didn't struggle outwardly until college. We were close but also not close - I know that seems weird.

She stuck close to me, but also kept me out of her personal life. She didn't confide in me, and if I asked questions about friends, plans, etc., she would say - You don't know them. (Today, she blames me for not being more involved. ha.)

I now realize I parented out of fear even before these traits showed up.

You know what I mean? She says jump. We jump. She moves the mat so we crash, and then tells us to get up and jump somewhere else. It's maddening. 

The PD's can overlap. Do you think this is BPD or NPD or both? For someone as high functioning as this, and as cold, I wonder about NPD?

My BPD mother met criteria for both BPD and NPD. She had more of BPD- they were predominant and this is what led her to be lower functioning, even though she was intelligent. Her emotional issues and BPD were what affected her the most.

She could do well in school, but I don't think she could have held a job. In her era, women were not expected to but I don't think she could have managed the emotional aspect of one.

She was also emotionally cold, and didn't show empathy. She also could be hurtful- on purpose. These were NPD traits. I think this is one way she felt powerful as she was otherwise dependent on others (mainly my father). She was verbally abusive. Although I tried to do things the way she wanted- they weren't good enough. She'd find something that I did or didn't do that wasn't OK no matter what. We were afraid of her.

Yet, like your D, she had her moments of emotional vulnerability. She wanted us to be connected to her, but only on her terms, only if she had complete control. This doesn't work with other adults. We have our own schedules and responsibilities, so that led to her being angry and verbally abusive when we weren't completely compliant.

I also tried the "jump" when she says jump and being compliant in hopes that it might make things better between us but it didn't seem to do what I hoped it would. The only thing that seemed to work was to not engage in these conversations. It didn't change the way she thought and processed but she did learn that I wasn't going to engage in these kinds of conversations.

[CC43]

Hi again,

Notwendy asks an interesting question about overlapping behaviors of BPD and NPD and a potential dual diagnosis.  I have both a BPD and an uNPD in my life, and I'd agree that the NPD's behavior centers around control of others, tinged with meanness and/or retribution.  Now, I'm not saying that pwBPD don't exert an element of "control" with their behaviors.  Their behaviors do seem manipulative, but at the same time, the "manipulation" seems secondary to the primary issues of emotional dysfunction and emotional reactions that are extreme/inappropriate for the situation.  In contrast, with NPD, it's almost like they have a "sadistic" need to control others, in the sense that they seem to enjoy it when others are hurt and/or serving them.  The NPD in my life will literally wear others down until they submit to his demands, and if they don't do what he wants, he'll demand retribution, and he can be cold and calculating in going about that.  Another angle is that he expects others to follow rules (he thinks that others should be punished if they break the rules!), but he is exempt because he thinks he's special.  I've explained this to myself by thinking he demands A+ performance from everyone, while he only gives a D- effort in return (while expecting an A+ for himself!), and over time, people get tired of this, he loses all his friends, and he might lose is job, and then he wonders why he's alone.  The end result is similar for BPD--losing friends, feeling abandoned, low ability to function in certain areas of life--but the mechanism seems to be different.  The NPD seems much more cold and calculating, exploitative, with a longer-term focus, and he can control his emotions when he wants.  He seems devoid of any empathy for others, even for his own children or helpless creatures like pets.  He seems sadistically mean, as if he could plan the perfect revenge and get away with it, whereas the BPD is mean, but only because she is an emotional mess.  The NPD seems more "rational" if you believe the premise of his lies, whereas the BPD's logic is all twisted by emotions.  The BPD does seem to have empathy--she'll easily pick up on other people's feelings--but because she's an emotional mess, instead of showing empathy for someone else, she's "triggered," and she'll internalize the emotion and make the situation all about her.  The NPD has zero empathy whatsoever, because according to his world view, regular people are inferior.  He seems to derive pleasure from feeling superior to others and demonstrating that superiority, even if it means he hurts someone else.  I guess a main difference is that the BPD tends to hate herself, whereas the NPD thinks he's better than everyone else around him, and that he should be adored.

I'd add that there are many overlapping traits, too.  Projection is one.  Blame-shifting and avoidance of responsibility is another--neither will apologize.  Having a favorite person and "grooming" them, but then quickly discarding them over something seemingly trivial is another.  Needing to be the center of attention is another.  Seeming manipulative is another.  Delusional thinking is another.  I'll add that the BPD tends to be delusional about how others wronged and victimized her, whereas the NPD tends to be delusional in his grandiose thought about himself, and about how he deserves special treatment.  They seem similar, and yet different, in multiple dimensions!

I guess my takeaway is that if left untreated, BPD and NPD are very hard to live with.  BPD seems like it's worse, because the core tenet is a very negative outlook on life, whereas the NPD has a positive self-image most of the time.  But when a BPD hits bottom, she's more likely to realize she needs to get some help to cope with her intense feelings, and if she's committed to therapy, she can start to turn things around.  But I have serious doubts that a pwNPD would ever admit he could use some therapeutic support.  He's convinced he's better than everyone else, including psychologists.  He just doesn't see that he has a problem.

[Notwendy]

I found that figuring out my BPD mother was confusing. She did have aspect of both, with BPD being predominant.

I actually found BPD on the internet when looking up NPD. There was a person in our community who was classic NPD. He was difficult to deal with, so I looked up NPD for some ideas.

While reading about it, I thought "this sounds like my mother but not quite like her". There was a link to BPD and when I read it, she fit all the criteria.

In addition to the BPD criteria, she had no empathy. She seemed to enjoy being in control. She had a sense of entitlement.

What was different from the person with NPD that I know is that, along with his sense of superiority- he was powerful in the business he owned and financially successful. My BPD mother could not have held a job and was a dependent person.

And this seemed to fit as well, but for my BPD mother it seemed a mix of both: I guess a main difference is that the BPD tends to hate herself, whereas the NPD thinks he's better than everyone else around him, and that he should be adored.

[SoVeryConfused]

This is such an interesting conversation! And something to consider. I read your comments and re-read them.

I don't see NPD in my child, other than being high functioning. I believe the symptoms I do see were triggered by a TBI (concussion), daily pot use, and then us being gone over the winter months.

I believe the TBI may have affected the frontal cortex leading to frustrating physical and mental health issues. Then, as she struggled, we left for two months. I knew of the injury, but I truly thought she would like the winter place. She never did and demanded I return. And that has remained her position. I should not leave.

For a brief time after this, she lived with us. And we had no problems. Isn't that interesting? We talked a bit about things, and I thought we were on the way to healing.

However, once she moved out, was in a new job in a new city, that didn't make her happy either, and I believe it's made her sadder. We've tried - we ask to visit. We try to make plans. We ask her to come back to our hometown and visit. And instead - she just tells us all the ways we fail her.

Very emotional and very hard on herself. Seems more like BPD?

I'm essentially very low- no-contact, waiting for a civil text to respond to. It has not come. Tonight, she got her dad to get me on the phone. I was not ready.

She questioned why I wasn't communicating. I said - Our conversations haven't been civil, and they are hurtful, so I was taking a break unless they are civil. She asked - How can you know if you won't pick up. I responded - I'm waiting first for a civil text to start.

She hung up, but then sent me texts that made me feel so sad. About how I don't ask her about medical things, if she got her new job, or about anything. It's true - because we haven't had one normal conversation.

I question myself - is this limited contact the right thing? But then, the little communication I get is blaming and name-calling, which is not how an adult should treat another. This is such a brutal situation for us all.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SoVeryConfused]

The BPD does seem to have empathy--she'll easily pick up on other people's feelings--but because she's an emotional mess, instead of showing empathy for someone else, she's "triggered," and she'll internalize the emotion and make the situation all about her... 

I'll add that the BPD tends to be delusional about how others wronged and victimized her...

BPD seems like it's worse, because the core tenet is a very negative outlook on life...

...He's convinced he's better than everyone else, including psychologists.  He just doesn't see that he has a problem.

This ^^ is what resonated with me. My child often doesn't believe doctors, saying they are not good at their jobs and dismissing their advice. She doesn't think she's better; she just doesn't like what they say.