Might be the end with my suspected HPD partner of 15ys. Tough times

[ClaritySeeker]

So my Mrs who I came here about 3 years back with bizzare flirting behaviour out and about I uncovered and emotional cheating - has since made life difficult attacking me at every opporunity it seems when I go out socialising. Calling me an alcoholic father etc despite coming home every night to my children unlike some father although I do like a few beers and sometimes a late one as have always to no real detriment.

Things have taken a turn for the worse lately when I was out late at my workshop unplanned when she woke and couldn't wait 5 mins for me to pick up the phone - with some pals (rarity now) when she turned up banging the door down and then slapping me infront of others.

We are in seperate parts of the house now and despite me trying to say "we both need to do better" (me not drinking to cope and her being more patient) all she seems to be able to do is point the finger!

I really have nowhere else to go now do I? 

A

[Pook075]

This is such a common problem in BPD relationships and to be honest, you're not going to like my answer here at all.  I'll share it anyway though.

If you could only pick one thing, which would you choose:

1) Having a happy marriage.
2) Always being right in arguments.

You talked about what you enjoy doing; a few beers from time to time with friends.  I don't see anything wrong with that...but your wife clearly does.  So what advice are you seeking here? 

I can tell you that you're right, to live your life how you want and it's what you deserve.  Or I can tell you that marriage is about sacrifice for the one we love.  If she's your priority, then stop drinking.

It all goes back to choosing one thing- being right, or being in a happy marriage.  Sometimes you don't get to have both and this feels like one of those situations.

Now, I will say that slapping you is overboard...any sort of violence is wrong.  We have to remember that your wife is mentally ill though and will respond badly when she feels insecure or abandoned.  You're not mentally ill so you have to lead in these sorts of things.  The drinking is a huge problem for her; maybe it stems from you having fun with others while she's alone.

You have to choose my friend and decide what you want.  There's a world where you can have a happy marriage and be right, but it's going to take some serious change.

[ForeverDad]

The concern when dealing with a deep personality issue is that even if you do what your spouse is clamoring for, will it stop there, or just move on to the next complaint?

I suspect there there is a lot of negativity in your spouse's behavior.  Resolving this one matter will probably not resolve things if one of the acting-out PDs is in play.  For a relationship to succeed and be healthy both spouses need to come together and work together to make their lives a success.  Can not just you or not just her but can the both of you do that?

[ClaritySeeker]

Appreciate the replies, the hardest thing is the switching and painting me all black on a fall out, especially now when I finally snapped and put her in her place to some degree. I provide well for my family and am not away much at all just the odd Friday/Sat night when kids have been put to bed and she is watching some drivel on TV and has maybe annoyed me with her shouting about something stupid.

Since I uncovered her behaviours a few years ago it has felt like instead of rebuilding trust she is out to get me.
More traits I guess unable to handle the shame of things - blame shifting?

I know the real answer is professional intervention is probably needed here or we are going to go around and around in circles.

I tried to get her help, but that failed and she seems to want to just point the finger at why me and her kids stress her out that is all the cause of everything..

Since the original post she has declared she wants to end it painting me completely black - I have felt some relief but something tells me she has not thought that one through and will switch again when the reality sinks in!

[ForeverDad]

You are dealing with multiple aspects of acting-out dysfunction.  Acting-in is where a person is more prone to harm oneself, acting-out is where the harmful behavior is expressed onto others.  In BPD patterns the closer the person is, the more harm experienced.  So spouses and immediate families are most exposed.

There are many here who have also experienced when the cyclical "painting all black" progresses into permanent "painting all black".  Precisely when that happens may be quite iffy since the cyclical reversals between "bad back to good" may or may not keep happening.  Typically the only positive outcome when that negativity becomes permanent happens is... ending the relationship.

Often the other person will prefer to keep the conflict continuing to higher and higher levels rather than agree to an end, almost as though they're feeding on it.  That is the unbalanced illogic of a disordered mind.  There are textbooks and endless examples describing BPD and other acting-out disorders... but though the patterns are explained it still does not make common sense.  That is why it is called a mental health disorder.  Can you wrap your mind about that chasm of sanity and normalcy versus abnormal?

Since you've tried to help your spouse and it hasn't worked -- not surprising since your spouse's perception of the emotional baggage of the relationship makes that nearly impossible -- and even seeking expert therapy has been refused, that seems to leaves one option left... you can decide or choose to end the relationship.

Please be aware that choosing to end the adult relationship via divorce can trigger even more overreactions.  Such times are referred to as extinction bursts where the other adds even more pressure and demands in a desperate effort to make you retreat back to the prior patterns of compliance and/or perpetual conflict.

If you do end the marriage, keep in mind that you also need to be and remain as a very involved parent for your children.  Why?  They would benefit from living as much as possible of their lives in a stable and normal home with you, both for their benefit now as children as well as their lives as adults.  Some day they'll choose their own adult relationships and you don't want them to choose a spouse who is either aggressively demanding or passively compliant.

[kells76]

Tough times for sure... Really sorry your family is going through this stress right now.

Can you remind me how old your kids are, and how they're doing with the situation?

I agree with you that it would be great if your W decided to get some professional help. However, she has to make that decision for herself. There's no magic phrase that we know that will convince her to go -- just not under your control.

What is under your control is if you decide to get help for yourself. It sounds counterintuitive -- isn't she the one with BPD, right? -- but given that you can't change her, and that the situation is so stressful and unlivable, what that means is that change must start with you.

In our situation, my husband's kids' mom has many BPD traits, and she is married (last time I checked) to someone with strong NPD traits. There was absolutely nothing I could do to make them get the professional help they needed, but that didn't mean I had to just accept the dysfunction. I've been in therapy basically the whole time my H and I have been together, and I would not have survived without it. Getting therapy as a person without BPD is so important when there is someone with untreated BPD in your family system. It will help you parent more effectively, tackle what is a real problem, and learn to let go of some other things.

Consider finding a therapist or counselor for you... even just to help you sort out next steps in your relationship. Could really be worth it to feel like you have an ally in all this.

[ClaritySeeker]

Thanks. Appreciate the thought so more

7 and 10 they are.

The one blessing is due to her behaviours we never got married. Almost until she was uncovered acting in appropriately on a few occasions.

So I won't have to fold my business at least!

[ForeverDad]

If you do end the marriage, keep in mind that you also need to be and remain as a very involved parent for your children.  Why?  They would benefit from living as much as possible of their lives in a stable and normal home with you, both for their benefit now as children as well as their lives as adults.  Some day they'll choose their own adult relationships and you don't want them to choose a spouse who is either aggressively demanding or passively compliant.

Family or domestic court handles more than unwinding financial entanglements.  It also sets court orders impacting parenting, custody and schedules.  So if it comes to the point that you decide to end your adult relationship, you have the ability to seek the best possible custody/parenting order for your minor children - starting with an initial temp order during the process.  You may not be able to actually get what you consider to be the best temp order for the children but don't be discouraged, do your best to work toward getting the "least bad" initial and later orders.

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks. Appreciate the thought so more

7 and 10 they are.

The one blessing is due to her behaviours we never got married. Almost until she was uncovered acting in appropriately on a few occasions.

So I won't have to fold my business at least!

There could be common law marriage issues though, due to the length of time you've been together & cohabitating. 

If you're thinking things are coming to an end, there's some things you should do to protect yourself, and to be clear, these are things you do for yourself, on the DL.  Do not tell your partner you're doing them and make 100% sure they do not find out.  If your partner is BPD, and finds any objective proof you're on your way out (or considering it), it may well produce an explosive reaction, including them preemptively filing for divorce or trying to get you arrested in order to gain an advantage over you. 

1) Talk to an attorney; most will review your situation (i.e. living situation, years together, finances, children, who brings in the income, infidelity, etc.) and offer you a consultation for an hourly fee.  This is well worth the money.  I consider the $500 I spent for a legal consultation explaining my state's divorce rules & likely outcome if I filed to be the best money I've ever spent in my life.

2) If you have things you value that could become an issue, move them out of the pwBPD's reach.  I had caught my now ex-wife throwing away things I had saved (family heirlooms, photos, gifts from family members to me), so I packed these up and moved them to a storage unit I rented.  But obviously don't move things they might notice. 

3) Consider where you might go (including with your kids) if you have to file for divorce and moving out (temporarily) is the safest option for you.  investigate short term housing options in your area, and make a budget for these added costs.  If you can do it discreetly, put this money aside in an account your partner does not have access to. 

4) Document things: keep a journal (again: VERY discreetly) documenting abusive conduct, threats, infidelity, etc.  Even if you don't have objective evidence to corroborate events in it, a journal is more persuasive than mere allegations made in court.  It sounds like she slapped you in front of friends (?) yes?  The potential witnesses to the conduct would be something to note in the journal so you remember who to call as a witness in court if need be. 

[PeteWitsend]

...

Since I uncovered her behaviours a few years ago it has felt like instead of rebuilding trust she is out to get me.
More traits I guess unable to handle the shame of things - blame shifting?

...

There's a website I found after I got divorced that purports to explain relationship dynamics between men and "high conflict" women (the site is apparently down, but someone posted the workbook on scribd: https://www.scribd.com/document/360941730/The-Nicola-Method-Workbook, and there are a bunch of threads on reddit endorsing it).  I'd take it with a grain of salt, as the woman who created the site says she's not a psychologist, psychiatrist, or has any formal training in human behavior, but she's not selling anything, and it all seems logical to me.  it describes female behavior specifically, but I think it could apply to anyone with a behavioral disorder, regardless of gender.

Anyways, the gist of it is that when someone with a behavioral disorder feels negative personal emotions (guilt, weakness, insecurity), they "flip the script" in their minds by transferring the blame for these emotions to another (boyfriend, husband, etc.).  This results in them going from feelings of weakness or shame, to self-righteous anger.  They go from feeling vulnerable to feeling strong and in charge.  The feeling of control they get over the situation by escalating the emotional level with angry accusations and outbursts gets addicting, and so it becomes a pattern of learned behavior. 

The could explain why her behavior is getting more persistent now. 

In addition to describing the situation, she provides some techniques and tools for defusing the anger or deflecting it to "take the wind out of their sails."  Other tools are available on this site: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

But regardless, understanding the "why" of why they behave a certain way is mostly academic.  Understand your own wants and needs.  Focus on the behavior you don't like; it doesn't matter why it's occurring, you need it to stop.  If she won't stop it when you ask her to, or by using some of these self-help techniques, then you need to figure out your next steps, whatever those may be.  If the next step involves formally separating, then see my prior post.

[ClaritySeeker]

Thank you this is a rare place I feel understood and not questioning my own sanity at times.

Others have mentioned this common law thing, thankfully:

"it does not exist in the UK. In the UK, couples who live together without formalizing their relationship through marriage or civil partnership are known as cohabiting couples and have no general legal status, meaning they don't automatically have the same rights and responsibilities as married couples"

That is something I should be tremendously grateful of I guess with my own successful company.

The reality is I think I need to keep my own head strong and navigate away from this at the end of the day if she is wanting to end it mainly, its perhaps better I let it happen with as little drama as possible her thinking she is in control for the kids sake? ( as much as I want us to carry on as a family).

I feel more for the man who is in this not being so aware and married - count my blessings I guess.

[ForeverDad]

.... at the end of the day if she is wanting to end it mainly, its perhaps better I let it happen with as little drama as possible her thinking she is in control for the kids sake? ( as much as I want us to carry on as a family).

Here are a few hypothetical outcomes.  We don't know what will happen in your case but these are some of the scenarios we frequently hear.  Bear in mind that a common observation we've had here regarding negative incidents is, "If it's been threatened or even contemplated, it will happen, given enough time."

• What if all she does is keep threatening divorce but overall things still continue downhill?
• What if the other progresses from verbal outbursts to physical attacks?  Will you have proof or documentation you're not the aggressor?
• What if the other progresses from verbal outbursts with you but vents on the children too?  Will you have proof or documentation about what really happened?
• What if she really does file for separation and demands the kids, claiming DV?
• What if she really does file for separation and demands the kids, claiming you're an uninvolved parent?
• What if she really does file for separation and demands the kids, claiming child abuse?

In short, it is not wise to leave the course of events in a disordered person's hands.  Yes, we can't predict what another person will or will not do over time, yet we are wise to be prepared because all too often the disorder progresses to worse levels unless the person is in meaningful therapy and applies it in life and perceptions.  At least seek a few very private and totally confidential interviews with some lawyers or solicitors and have a plan or two or three in case things do go upside down.

[ClaritySeeker]

You've been through all of this I'm guessing?

[ClaritySeeker]

And like I said not married. No common law stuff here so on the upper hand in ways ..

[ForeverDad]

Yes, much of it, well, except for the claim of DV.  You see, we separated when she was arrested for Threat of DV.  So likely my ex was told she shouldn't accuse me of the same thing for which she was scrutinized.  (After a few continuances the case was dismissed.  That's another story.)  But she did try a few years later when I was seeking full custody.

I wrote what I did to emphasize that our cases usually get stuck on custody and parent schedule struggles.  That's where the pwBPD makes the worst scenes and and raises the scariest battle lines.  That's when you realize the financial aspects are quite straightforward, the bigger issue is the custody and parenting in future years.

My divorce case lasted about 2 years.  Even if we weren't married the custody and parenting issues still would have taken 2 years.