HRT impact on BPD and long time since I posted here...

[campbembpd]

So many great comments and helpful tips...

NW - you're right. Absolutely I knew it wasn't the HRT at the core, I really did. But had a glimmer of hope we could possibly have a dialogue. Now I am of the mind we will never be able to have healthy open conversations on certain subjects - finances and sex to start.

Things have as usual gone back to emotional baseline for her. I am consciously playing the game" and intentionally doing what I need to do to keep things peaceful through the holidays.

FD - yes and sadly I've experienced many of these bursts. The more time and more episodes that happen bring me closer to believing the marriage has little future... She adamantly says she won't do individual therapy so there's really no chance in her magically getting better.  she continues to press for couples therapy, saying I need to go if I want to save our marriage... but she won't go herself to save our marriage? We don't have a communication problem, she has a regulation problem and mental illness that she won't address and won't acknowledge. (every episode, including this latest is my fault for the timing, for triggering her, for recording her when she was being physically aggressive. She has no accountability - it's always been my fault for "making her feel this way").

CC43 - There 100% is a reason she's not being transparent. She's lying. She lies to me saying she has X amount saved up but she won't show me? I know she doesn't because I saw her balances recently. She looks at me wanting transparency and accountability as controlling. Any limits imposed are controlling. The only limit she wants is what she contributes to the household. And yes, I can only control myself so I am working on a details plan for January. I already have a personal account but will also be setting up personal savings, etc. She pays for her car, she pays our vehicle insurance and our power bill. She'll pay for some dinners our but that's is it for the household.

Come the new year it will be bad - she will no doubt freak out when I implement what I need to. I'm meeting with my accountant early Jan to help with adjusting my tax withholding and what the impacts will be to changing my filing to married filing single. She doesn't know this yet.

I will be separating everything from our iphone accounts to any bill that we don't need or is mostly hers to either her taking it over or me canceling it. I expect my take home pay will be reduced quite a bit when I change my taxes so I will likely need to reduce or eliminate any money towards things like eating out of the house for some time (this will make her the most angry as she 'needs' to go out twice a week, usually we alternate who pays). I'm going to cut every little corner I can to put more away to emergency savings and debt.

I do have an emergency bag packed with enough clothes and things for a few days ready to go.

I just started re-reading Splitting by Eddy.

I'm thinking through options like a safety deposit box, a PO box and/or storage unit. Thinking of when I might need to take that step. I'm ordering a couple more internal security cameras, one for the spare room which I'll move into if I need to.

Right now it's a lot of ABR (always be recording) and protecting myself. I'm thinking a lot more about what's best for me and the kids. This ain't it.

CC43 - I have a smidge of hope that my wife might seek treatment when things change because this will be a new level for her (me stopping payment for things, separating finances). Very doubtful but a slim hope. What is much more realistic is she will have more extinction bursts, become even more enraged and volatile then before (especially since she just got HRT yesterday) and things will come to a difficult conclusion. I think it's very possible I will have to call the police when she becomes physical or suicidal again and I will need to take the needed steps to protect the kids and myself legally at that point...

[PeteWitsend]

...While the pwBPD in my life wasn't intentionally destructive with possessions when she was raging, her prevailing attitude was not to care about anything in a passive-aggressive way.  ...

Yeah, there's like a "rich tapestry" of issues that seem to flow from BPD, and a lack of personal responsibility or a cavalier attitude toward other people's things, feelings, finances, etc. seems to be a hallmark of it.  It doesn't really matter why; it's wrong and not justifiable period.  Accepting their excuses contributes to the problem, as I see it now. 

In my case, the behavior from BPDxw was more destructive and mean spirited than thoughtless or ditsy.  I remember around the time she started living with me, I noticed she would pick apart the vinyl, faux-leather covering on my couch (it was admittedly not an expensive couch).  It bothered me, but I was too shocked by the behavior from someone I considered an adult - and my girlfriend - and the fact that she called it "cheap" to say anything. 

I see now that it was part of the "grooming" process.  I knew even at this early stage in our relationship that if I had called it out and gotten angry over this pointless destruction of my property - AND RIGHTFULLY SO! - it would've been a fight.  She would've found a way to blame me for having "cheap" furniture, and tried to flip the script so that I was wrong for trying to make her accountable for her actions.  So I said nothing.  The lesson for both of us I guess was that if we were going to be together, this sort of thing was acceptable.  She could behave however she wanted to me, and I would accept it. 

At the time I really struggled to understand this sort of thing.  It was a foreign concept to me that someone who purportedly loved me and wanted to be with me would behave like that to me.  But I had a lot to learn...

[CC43]

Hi again,

My sister escaped with her young children from an abusive relationship with an uNPD that ended with domestic violence, which two of three young children witnessed. There were all sorts of signs and building tensions that preceded the altercation, but even so, my sister was was surprised by the extent of the drunken violence.  After getting the kids out of the house and settling her nerves (trying to remain calm for the sake of her children), she called the cops, who proceeded to remove her husband and countless leathal weapons from the household.  Shortly therafter she got a temporary restraining order, which fortunately was further extended.  I guess it's no surprise that in court, her ex alleged that SHE was the one who attacked HIM (which is totally delusional, and she had the bruise marks to prove it).  She was so frightened that he'd violate the restraining order that she fled the marital home just a couple days later.  She and her kids stayed with me for a night.  One of her kids thought she was having an adventurous vacation and exclaimed, "This is the best night of my life," and I almost cried.  Then they flew across the country to stay with my parents.  Once the kids were safe, my sister returned to her house, hired movers, took her stuff and put it in storage, leaving her husband's things behind.  Somehow, the movers understood this was a crisis situation and got the move scheduled right away, a day or two after she called.  Since her ex was subject to a restraining order, he didn't find out that she had abandoned the home until a few weeks later.

My sister probably didn't plan the "ideal" escape because she moved the kids out of state, and technically she didn't have the courts' or her husband's permission to do this.  But she felt her husband was too hostile and threatening, and that he might physically harm the kids, especially because he had kept all sorts of weapons around the house (semi-automatic weapons, pistols, a cross-bow, knives and hundreds of rounds).  As a person with undiagnosed NPD, he can be extremely conniving, manipulative and vindictive.  Since the altercation happened right before the time that Covid broke out, the courts shut down, and CPS grinded to a halt.  She basically got a couple "freebie" years with very limited interaction with the abusive husband/dad.  It was little surprise to me that he barely tried to telephone his own kids during those months.  It was also no surprise to me that he got let go from his job right after the altercation.  He was so dysfunctional (especially without my sister catering to his every need as she did when they were married) that he has remained unemployed ever since.

Anyway, there are some things you can do to prepare for a potential escape/separation, should the situation come to that.  I hope things don't get that bad for you, I really don't.  But by the same token, I think my sister knew in her gut that her marriage was falling apart, and that her husband suffered from severe, untreated mental illness.  I didn't see it at first, because I didn't live it.  She would share stories of behaviors that seemed really out there, almost incredible--I thought she was exaggerating, and suffering from the stress of young motherhood with triplets.  At the same time, I was dealing with emerging BPD in my own family, and I didn't really understand that at the time, either.  But now I think I understand what's going on, and the delusional behavioral patterns seem much clearer to me now.  I think there are so many similarities with BPD and NPD, it's almost scary, even though from the outside, the individuals in question seem very different!

I don't have all the answers, but there are centers for domestic violence that could point you in the right direction and perhaps provide good tips and resources.  It's probably very helpful if you have family nearby, as they could keep some of your things safe, and maybe provide lodging, plus logistical and moral support.  You might consider getting a cheap burner phone, a post office box, a safe deposit box and back-up computer if you think your wife is surveilling you, or worse, destroying your belongings and documentation.  And of course, get your finances under control.  Getting finances under control will make you feel more secure and calm.  I tend to think that money isn't just about buying things, but buying options and security.  Once you have more options and security, I bet things will start to feel a little easier for you.

Anyway, my sister has been involved in her divorce battle for six years, and fortunately, the courts sided with her.  The NPD self-destructive behaviors ran their course, and thankfully, the professionals (CPS and judge) saw through his facade.  I think I have a few takeaways for you.  The first is, document, document document!  Recording conversations is a good start.  Try to get things in writing if you can, via texts or emails.  Second, the courts emphasize the welfare of the children.  Documentation of abusive/dangerous/violent behavior towards children carried the most weight, and that includes emotional abuse and parentification.  Third, CPS is expensive and slow, and it's important to get an experienced person assigned to your case should you go that route.  An inexperienced person might not have the ability to recognize the harmful BPD/NPF/addictive behaviors.  Fourth, as you probably know, pwNPD and pwBPD are notorious for not cooperating.  You might get a highly detailed a parenting plan, and there might be a detailed division of marital assets, but a key issue is non-compliance/non-cooperation on the part of pwBPD/NPD.  Enforcement of plans is costly in terms of legal fees, as well as the time it takes for a judge to make a ruling, let alone force compliance.  Therefore, you need to plan ahead for non-compliance/non-cooperation issues when it comes to separation and co-parenting.  I think courts try to be "too fair," thinking that adults will act like adults.  But pwBPD/NPD don't play fair.  Here's an example:  A "default" parenting/visitation plan might stipulate that parents exchange children at a specified time at a neutral location, halfway between the parents' homes.  That works if everyone shows up, on schedule.  But in my sister's case, her ex with NPD would be a no-show (with no advance warning) at half of the exchanges, and he'd be terribly late (45 minutes or more) the other times.  Driving three young kids to an exchange point, having them sitting, waiting and looking for dad, wondering if he will show up, asking if he's OK and why he doesn't want to see them, feels cruel.  Moreover, his lateness means they might miss their activities, their dinner is delayed (they are starving), they are restless/bored waiting in the car, etc.  It's really hard on kids when pwBPD/NPD are non-compliant.  You might think, well there's traffic, or he's busy.  Yes, you're reasonable.  But he's NOT.  He's unemployed and has a million excuses, but at the end of the day, he thinks he's SPECIAL and EXEMPT from rules, including being on time for his own kids.  He doesn't consider one bit how his behavior affects his kids, because the only thing that matters is what he wants.  Sound familiar?  It's because that's part of mental illness, and the courts just don't see that every day.  But you do.  So a way to combat this is to have a parenting plan that EXPECTS non-compliance.  One way to do this would be to insist that your ex drives to your house to pick up the kids.  If she's a no-show, then she loses visitation for the day.  In other words, make sure the kids don't suffer the consequences when your ex is non-compliant.

Finally, if you think your kids are suffering (they probably are if you are), you might consider trying therapy.  My sister arranged therapy from time to time, for whichever kid seemed to be struggling most.  She kept at it until she felt therapy wasn't helping anymore, and then she'd stop.  You might be able to investigate affordable therapy options as well.  The schools might be able to help you there.

[ForeverDad]

Since your marriage's future is in doubt, it would be wise for you to interview some family law attorneys so you can determine your legal standing in your local courts should there be more conflict.  Not just any lawyer will be up to the task of protecting you from the chaos, obstruction and sabotage a BPD spouse can and will cause.  So what counts is that your lawyer, if needed is experienced and proactive.

I sought my first lawyer after I had already separated.  Unfortunately she was from a neighboring county and new to the family law courts.  She admitted she was out of her depth and so named someone she respected in my county.  By then my ex had made "unsubstantiated" allegations for which I was unprepared.  I regret I didn't do my homework much earlier - choosing an experienced lawyer - and had to play catch up.  That's why I say it would be prudent to do legal consultations sooner than later, especially since you have no idea when you'll desperately need one.

This should be done privately and confidentially.  You have a right to privacy and confidentiality.  This is one of those situations where sharing too much information (TMI) can result in enabling your spouse to sabotage and obstruct you.

While yes you need to be open and above board on financial matters but even so you don't share all your strategies, again doing so too often exposes you to sabotage and obstruction.  Remember the old saying, Loose lips sink ships?  Don't sink your own ship.

[Notwendy]

It was a foreign concept to me that someone who purportedly loved me and wanted to be with me would behave like that to me.  But I had a lot to learn...

It's also confusing when it's one's own mother. I concluded that she was overwhelmed with her own emotional needs. I don't know the actual motivation for her behavior, or had the ability to love anyone in the sense most people perceive love. Maybe her perspective of love was different.

She was purposely destructive but also held on to possessions if people wanted them.

She'd point to an item in her house, ask if we wanted it, and then decide to not let us have it. We didn't want her to think we only visited her to get something- and perhaps she was holding on to things because of a fear of abandonment. So we'd try to reassure her and said we aren't here for your things, we just want to visit you. She seemed irritated when we said this. So we decided to say yes to something, if that is what she wanted us to do, but she didn't give them to us when we did.

I think a main aspect of her behavior that impacted a relationship with her was that she lied and was secretive- this was deliberate and I think it met her need to feel in control. It's impossible to have any trust in this situation. Yes, her past behavior was difficult but that can't be changed. We didn't dwell on that. It was the current behavior. It wasn't only over material things- it was that we couldn't tell if what she said was true or not.

While there are similarities with my BPD mother, there are also differences in the situations with campenbpd's. One is that my mother didn't work outside the home and couldn't work, but your wife is able to do that. In this regard, she is higher functioning than my mother was.

There's also the difference in era. My parents married when most women didn't work outside the home, so we don't know what may have been possible if she had some work training, and workplace opportunities were available to women then. I think this could have been a factor in my father's concern for her if he had left the marriage.

If someone can manage employment, this shows they know how to behave on the job and meet responsibilities on their own.

In any divorce, finances are considered and some kind of alimony is worked out if there's a discrepancy in who earns what. So is custody and child support but that isn't an issue with adult children.

Another difference is that there's a special needs child to consider. Once we were grown and not financially dependent, - all of my father's income was available for the two of them.

When considering if your wife will go to therapy or not- also consider if the therapy is effective. It wasn't effective with BPD mother. Therapy isn't a fast process so consider a time interval to assess this.

[campbembpd]

Thanks again all, I did speak with a couple of lawyers last year. Neither of them were  familiar  with personality disorders. It was frustrating because one of them. I specifically called because she had awe’re experts on personality disorders. It was frustrating cause one of them. I specifically called because she had a website and had a blog with a couple mentions of high conflict personalities but when I talked to her, she was oblivious to NPD or BPD.

And they were very few attorneys that didn’t charge a fee for an initial consultation… but I have started going through and making a list of several more to contact. If we do head down the path of divorce, I am still hanging onto some hope that we could work through some mediation. Fact this we don’t have many assets to speak of, aside from the house, and of course the debts. That’ll be the biggest thing. I’m fine with splitting everything down the middle. We have no minors to deal with custody issues, the biggest thing is my adult disabled send and his guardianship. Oh and of course, spousal support. It was helpful to talk to the attorneys about spouse support, and the law surrounding that. During some of our episodes, she’s thrown out some ridiculous numbers of what she thinks she would get. There’s actually calculations based on the difference of our incomes, etc. So I’ve already done the calculation and it’s less than half of what she thinks she would get.  Naturally, she’ll feel entitled to receive more and will be surprised that she may actually have to actually support herself…

[Notwendy]

If we do head down the path of divorce, I am still hanging onto some hope that we could work through some mediation. Fact this we don’t have many assets to speak of, aside from the house, and of course the debts. That’ll be the biggest thing. I’m fine with splitting everything down the middle. We have no minors to deal with custody issues, the biggest thing is my adult disabled send and his guardianship. Oh and of course, spousal support. f…

As Dr. Phil has said many times on his show (and he's right with this one)- the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Considering how your wife reacts over any discussion about finances- I think the possibility of mediation is remote to zero. What is more likely is a contentious situation.

Your lawyer will be interacting with you, to protect your interest in a divorce. Your wife's lawyer will be interacting with her for her best interest. I am not experienced with this- other posters may have better advice- but I think they focus on the law and defending your rights. That your wife has a PD is more likely to make the situation more contentious and longer but the lawyers will do what their job requires. IMHO what to look for is their competence and experience in contentious, high conflict divorces in case this would be the outcome.

[CC43]

Considering how your wife reacts over any discussion about finances- I think the possibility of mediation is remote to zero. What is more likely is a contentious situation.

I was planning to respond similarly.  Mediation might be a cheaper option for some couples, where there's an expectation from both parties of reaching a reasonable/equitable agreement in a timely manner with the help of an impartial mediator.  But the negotiations must proceed in good faith.  I think pwBPD are unable to negotiate in good faith, as they don't play fair, and many of their behaviors aren't even rational.  Trust me, if you think your wife is difficult now, she will be even more difficult in a divorce process.

I imagine that high-conflict couples typically go the lawyer route, and that they reach a settlement before going to trial.

My sister's high-conflict, uNPD ex was uncooperative with the separation process--including with his own lawyers, because several of his lawyers quit.  He was a no-show at court on a couple of occassions.  That means added time and expense, and a prolongation of the divorce process, which is highly stressful, draining and expensive.  My sister's case was one of the very uncommon ones that actually had to go to a trial, because her ex NPD wouldn't agree to any settlement proposal, nor make any counterproposal.  Like your wife, he refused to produce financials, he refused to abide by the parenting plan, and he had a million excuses for non-performance during the entire process.  He didn't negotiate in good faith.  The courts found him to be in contempt, he was that uncooperative.  The result?  Six years later, and the divorce still isn't finalized, and he still hasn't sold the marital home which he occupies.

From what you describe, I think mediation isn't feasible.  If I were you, I'd seek out an experienced lawyer who has some expertise with very high-conflict individuals.  From what you describe, your wife is very high-conflict.

[ForeverDad]

Thanks again all, I did speak with a couple of lawyers last year. Neither of them were familiar  with personality disorders. It was frustrating because one of them... had a blog with a couple mentions of high conflict personalities but when I talked to her, she was oblivious to NPD or BPD.

I had a two year divorce and was in and out of family court for another six years.  Court studiously ignored the obvious mental health issues.  As did CPS, police, children's hospital, etc.  They all danced around the core issue and looked at only their slice of responsibility.  The unstated expectation was that it would eventually fix itself.

Even my lawyer, as practical and experienced as he was, ignored my concerns that that I was dealing with a Personality Disordered ex-spouse.  Yes, he did call her batsh-t crazy, but like most everyone else in the system PDs were never voiced.

The only exception was our last magistrate.  Fortunately she was no-nonsense and didn't put up with my ex's antics.  Unfortunately, we had her only at the end of my eight years in and out of family court.  While she did lambast my ex for disparaging me in my son's presence, did grant most of the solutions I sought in my petition and even said my ex needed counseling, she stopped short of ordering counseling.

There was a lesson there.  Family court does not try to fix the adult litigants.  It deals with them - mostly - as they are.  We would do well to follow that pattern.  Its court orders are what we would otherwise call Boundaries.

If we do head down the path of divorce, I am still hanging onto some hope that we could work through some mediation.

Fortunately most of your issues are financial except for the long term guardianship of your needs but grown son.  There are calculations for alimony but beware of agreeing to open ended orders.  They tend to continue for longer than appropriate.  In decades past long marriages could end up with permanent alimony, not so much today.  (One member long ago said his former state may still be an exception.)

The point is that today spousal support during a divorce or alimony afterward is seen more as interim support while the financially disadvantaged ex transitions to life after marriage.

Be aware that laws in the USA changed a few years ago.  The income earner now pays support and the income taxes, not the recipient who earns less and may be in a lower tax bracket.  The government wants its cut.

In my own divorce my ex easily agreed to a financial split since she was possessively focused on the custody and parenting issues.  But she balked on the parenting.  There was a chasm between our perceptions so the mediator agreed that mediation had failed.  I learned a lesson then... It's okay if mediation fails.  That is better than agreeing to lousy terms.  In our cases mediation often does fail and the litigants simply return to court and report mediation failed.  The good thing for you is that court has calculations to handle the financial issues.  However, be careful not to let the court walk all over you when trying to find a quick fix.