HRT impact on BPD and long time since I posted here...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi everyone,

It’s been a while since I last posted. I’ve continued reading here but haven’t had the bandwidth to write. A lot has happened, and I’m hoping to get some support, perspective, and grounding as I figure out next steps. A lot of ups and a lot of downs. A lot of self help books and therapy continues. Progress, not perfection

Some Major Events:

1. A significant crisis—72-hour psychiatric hold
In July my wife had an episode where she became highly dysregulated and made explicit suicidal threats. I had no choice but to call for help, and she was placed on a 72-hour psych hold. I surprised myself that I was able to do it. She was mad/sad/mixed about it. Her family supported me and agreed I had no choice. No follow up therapy or diagnosis came of it though but looking back on it she says now it was a wake up call.

The whole incident started after our 2nd couples therapy session with a therapist I found who specialized in BPD and emotional regulation. She was expensive and didn't take insurance but I was willing to give it a shot. I really liked her and my wife said she did as well. The therapist saw my wife dysregulated in session. She said we need to suspend couples therapy until my wife gets individual therapy and recommended her trying DBT. We only saw the therapist one more time. This was the 2nd therapist that outright said we couldn't do any couples therapy until my wife received individual. I've told my wife since that I won't return to couples therapy again until she gets her own. After that 2nd sessions my wife engaged me in a multi-hour, circular conversation, expressing intense distress about what I shared in therapy and other topics. Despite my efforts to stay calm and redirect the conversation to future sessions, she cycled through a series of grievances, interrogations, and accusations. It just continued the next day - she claimed I wasn’t showing enough love or support and said my involvement in CODA was pulling me away from her. She insisted I give it up, blaming it for the changes and how I set boundaries. Told me to only go to church for guidance and these other groups are toxic. It continued the next morning telling me hateful things, threatening to throw expensive items of mine in the pool and that's when she started saying she wanted to die, prayed God would take her on the way to work. She ended up going to work and I made sure she got there but early afternoon she was sending me messages that she wanted to kill herself. I was able to reach our therapist and she said I needed to call the police. I did and they reviewed the messages and determined she should be held in a psych facility.


2. Some behavioral shift after she stopped HRT (hormone replacement therapy)
I've been dealing with these extreme behaviors for the past 8-10 years, maybe more. This year things seemed to be escalating and getting crazier then ever. I mean I felt like there were times my wife was completely unhinged and psychotic was the only word that came to mind. Serious threats, following me around when I try to take space. Grabbing me or my things to prevent me from leaving the house. Over the past couple of months, I noticed a reduction in intensity. She seems better able to handle some situations. Not quite as sensitive. I mean the core is still there but my daughter and I both have noticed my wife is more stable emotionally. My wife was the one who actually came to me to say how different she's been feeling, how level and just is able to handle issues better then before. She says she looks back at how she was acting and said it wasn't acceptable and herself has used the word psychosis to describe her state. We came to the conclusion that part of the additional intensity this year was due to a double dose of her HRT treatment in January (pellet injections). She was previously receiving HRT every 3-4 months but because they messed up and she got a 2nd dose she didn't get another one (and still hasn't almost 12 months later).

Things are not perfect by any means but we (my daughter and I) have been able to settle our nervous systems somewhat. There are much fewer upsets and they're over more quickly and haven't gotten as extreme.

the past 8-10 years are just following my wife's hysterectomy. She's had a few different HRT treatments but ever since then it for sure when things got worse, and unhinged.

Where Things Stand Now

Despite some calmer months, we’re now at a crossroads:
My wife has recently decided to resume HRT—this time at a lower dose. She believes it will help with energy, libido, and physical well-being. I’m apprehensive because now looking back it's clear how HRT treatment would result in an uptick of dysregulated behavior. And she decided to do this on Dec 15 so right about christmas is when she'll have her first hormone spike I wager...

I’ve been doing my own work—therapy, journaling, Al-Anon/CoDA principles, reading Pete Walker - found out I really have some deeper CPTSD issues and have a terrible fawn 4F response, inner-child work, etc.—and I’ve noticed a huge shift in how much I’m able to detach from the chaos. But the core patterns in the relationship are still very much present.

Why I'm Posting Now

Financially things are not in a complete free fall but we're still in a terrible, financially unsecure place. $40k in high interest debt and zero savings. I've been able to stave off going further into the whole and at least staying level but that isn't sustainable. I sat with her a few weeks ago to show her my account (I have a personal account and we share a joint account). I wanted to be open and transparent. I was keeping my personal account private from her for a while because she spends everything to zero every single month. and it was how I initially was able to stop spending everything - I kept enough money in my account to cover expenses as they came up. She's been keeping her personal account private from me and going into next year I'm not going to be okay with the status quo. I put 95% of my income into everything and she puts maybe 30-40% of hers. Somehow she's always out of money but I know approx. what she earns and the household bills she pays. Based on that she blows through $3k-$4k every month. But when I spoke to her it was all about me being open and transparent with her.

I've used my therapist and ChatGPT to help me come up with a dialogue and approach to how to broach the topic of finance and having transparency, and a more fair and balanced approach to us supporting the household with prioritizing savings, debt and once we're in a stable place then start saving for travel/goals.

I was going to wait until after xmas but once I found out she was getting her HRT it couldn't wait. I NEED to do it before she gets that treatment, there's a small chance she'll be more open to discussions in her current state but the most likely end result is she'll dysregulate, call me controlling and refuse.

I want transparency and us to see each others finances and accounts. I want us both to review each others spending so we can both have trust and look at patters for both of us and determine how to plan better. My therapist, other support avenues and chatgpt all assure me I'm asking for very reasonable things in a marriage. And in fact her hiding her money and spending amounts to financial infidelity if not financial abuse. I'm expected to carry the weight while she continues to plan personal vacations and spend basically until her balance is zero.

I don't have high expectations and am bracing for a very difficult conversation and fallout afterwards. I want to be direct with expectations but be fair. I can only control myself so if she doesn't cooperate with sharing accounts or making changes (ultimately setting limits on her personal spending and contributing more to savings and debt payoff) then I have a backup plan which is to separate our finances. It will not be pretty for her. It will mean stopping payment for anything of hers, removing myself off our LLC and we'd have to file individually after this year which means we would both pay higher taxes, I would reduce how much I spend on eating out to 1/4 of what we spend now which means I might pay for once a month. She would be responsible for her own gas, tolls, apple purchases, and everything. It won't be pretty but I would be able to start making a dent. Of course I don't know how long that would last or be sustainable. It already doesn't feel like much of a marriage some time. I'm already resentful about the imbalance. It's just a step I need to take and gives me more information. Perhaps if I actually make it uncomfortable and stick with my boundaries consistently she may step up. Not holding my breath but trying to do things differently.

[campbembpd]

Hi everyone,

It’s been a while since I last posted. I’ve continued reading here but haven’t had the bandwidth to write. A lot has happened, and I’m hoping to get some support, perspective, and grounding as I figure out next steps. A lot of ups and a lot of downs. A lot of self help books and therapy continues. Progress, not perfection

Some Major Events:

1. A significant crisis—72-hour psychiatric hold
In July my wife had an episode where she became highly dysregulated and made explicit suicidal threats. I had no choice but to call for help, and she was placed on a 72-hour psych hold. I surprised myself that I was able to do it. She was mad/sad/mixed about it. Her family supported me and agreed I had no choice. No follow up therapy or diagnosis came of it though but looking back on it she says now it was a wake up call.

The whole incident started after our 2nd couples therapy session with a therapist I found who specialized in BPD and emotional regulation. She was expensive and didn't take insurance but I was willing to give it a shot. I really liked her and my wife said she did as well. The therapist saw my wife dysregulated in session. She said we need to suspend couples therapy until my wife gets individual therapy and recommended her trying DBT. We only saw the therapist one more time. This was the 2nd therapist that outright said we couldn't do any couples therapy until my wife received individual. I've told my wife since that I won't return to couples therapy again until she gets her own. After that 2nd sessions my wife engaged me in a multi-hour, circular conversation, expressing intense distress about what I shared in therapy and other topics. Despite my efforts to stay calm and redirect the conversation to future sessions, she cycled through a series of grievances, interrogations, and accusations. It just continued the next day - she claimed I wasn’t showing enough love or support and said my involvement in CODA was pulling me away from her. She insisted I give it up, blaming it for the changes and how I set boundaries. Told me to only go to church for guidance and these other groups are toxic. It continued the next morning telling me hateful things, threatening to throw expensive items of mine in the pool and that's when she started saying she wanted to die, prayed God would take her on the way to work. She ended up going to work and I made sure she got there but early afternoon she was sending me messages that she wanted to kill herself. I was able to reach our therapist and she said I needed to call the police. I did and they reviewed the messages and determined she should be held in a psych facility.


2. Some behavioral shift after she stopped HRT (hormone replacement therapy)
I've been dealing with these extreme behaviors for the past 8-10 years, maybe more. This year things seemed to be escalating and getting crazier then ever. I mean I felt like there were times my wife was completely unhinged and psychotic was the only word that came to mind. Serious threats, following me around when I try to take space. Grabbing me or my things to prevent me from leaving the house. Over the past couple of months, I noticed a reduction in intensity. She seems better able to handle some situations. Not quite as sensitive. I mean the core is still there but my daughter and I both have noticed my wife is more stable emotionally. My wife was the one who actually came to me to say how different she's been feeling, how level and just is able to handle issues better then before. She says she looks back at how she was acting and said it wasn't acceptable and herself has used the word psychosis to describe her state. We came to the conclusion that part of the additional intensity this year was due to a double dose of her HRT treatment in January (pellet injections). She was previously receiving HRT every 3-4 months but because they messed up and she got a 2nd dose she didn't get another one (and still hasn't almost 12 months later).

Things are not perfect by any means but we (my daughter and I) have been able to settle our nervous systems somewhat. There are much fewer upsets and they're over more quickly and haven't gotten as extreme.

the past 8-10 years are just following my wife's hysterectomy. She's had a few different HRT treatments but ever since then it for sure when things got worse, and unhinged.

Where Things Stand Now

Despite some calmer months, we’re now at a crossroads:
My wife has recently decided to resume HRT—this time at a lower dose. She believes it will help with energy, libido, and physical well-being. I’m apprehensive because now looking back it's clear how HRT treatment would result in an uptick of dysregulated behavior. And she decided to do this on Dec 15 so right about christmas is when she'll have her first hormone spike I wager...

I’ve been doing my own work—therapy, journaling, Al-Anon/CoDA principles, reading Pete Walker - found out I really have some deeper CPTSD issues and have a terrible fawn 4F response, inner-child work, etc.—and I’ve noticed a huge shift in how much I’m able to detach from the chaos. But the core patterns in the relationship are still very much present.

Why I'm Posting Now

Financially things are not in a complete free fall but we're still in a terrible, financially unsecure place. $40k in high interest debt and zero savings. I've been able to stave off going further into the whole and at least staying level but that isn't sustainable. I sat with her a few weeks ago to show her my account (I have a personal account and we share a joint account). I wanted to be open and transparent. I was keeping my personal account private from her for a while because she spends everything to zero every single month. and it was how I initially was able to stop spending everything - I kept enough money in my account to cover expenses as they came up. She's been keeping her personal account private from me and going into next year I'm not going to be okay with the status quo. I put 95% of my income into everything and she puts maybe 30-40% of hers. Somehow she's always out of money but I know approx. what she earns and the household bills she pays. Based on that she blows through $3k-$4k every month. But when I spoke to her it was all about me being open and transparent with her.

I've used my therapist and ChatGPT to help me come up with a dialogue and approach to how to broach the topic of finance and having transparency, and a more fair and balanced approach to us supporting the household with prioritizing savings, debt and once we're in a stable place then start saving for travel/goals.

I was going to wait until after xmas but once I found out she was getting her HRT it couldn't wait. I NEED to do it before she gets that treatment, there's a small chance she'll be more open to discussions in her current state but the most likely end result is she'll dysregulate, call me controlling and refuse.

I want transparency and us to see each others finances and accounts. I want us both to review each others spending so we can both have trust and look at patters for both of us and determine how to plan better. My therapist, other support avenues and chatgpt all assure me I'm asking for very reasonable things in a marriage. And in fact her hiding her money and spending amounts to financial infidelity if not financial abuse. I'm expected to carry the weight while she continues to plan personal vacations and spend basically until her balance is zero.

I don't have high expectations and am bracing for a very difficult conversation and fallout afterwards. I want to be direct with expectations but be fair. I can only control myself so if she doesn't cooperate with sharing accounts or making changes (ultimately setting limits on her personal spending and contributing more to savings and debt payoff) then I have a backup plan which is to separate our finances. It will not be pretty for her. It will mean stopping payment for anything of hers, removing myself off our LLC and we'd have to file individually after this year which means we would both pay higher taxes, I would reduce how much I spend on eating out to 1/4 of what we spend now which means I might pay for once a month. She would be responsible for her own gas, tolls, apple purchases, and everything. It won't be pretty but I would be able to start making a dent. Of course I don't know how long that would last or be sustainable. It already doesn't feel like much of a marriage some time. I'm already resentful about the imbalance. It's just a step I need to take and gives me more information. Perhaps if I actually make it uncomfortable and stick with my boundaries consistently she may step up. Not holding my breath but trying to do things differently.

[ForeverDad]

Separating your finances may be the next step, but is it enough from a legal standpoint?  Are your credit cards and other loan/mortgage accounts all separate, not joint?  From here it's hard remotely to know whether that would be enough to separate you legally from her spending habits.  Technically, divorce might sever most financial obligations but are you considering that option?

[Notwendy]

I’m not a lawyer but I think how credit card debt is managed depends on if one is in a community property state or not. Separating finances in a marriage may be worth consulting an attorney about.

My BPD mother’s spending was an issue in her marriage and later in her elder years.  Speaking to her rationally didn’t work - other family members tried too. It was difficult to understand but I think it must have been emotionally driven. While it makes sense for you to try to speak to her first-it may be that the separate finances are the way to protect some savings but it may depend on the laws in your state.

[campbembpd]

There is only so much I can do. I can't 'force' her to do anything financially. I can't make her contribute more.

My next steps are to:

1. Have the conversation stating what I need. i.e. mutual transparency, determining a more fair and balanced approach to supporting the household, saving and paying down debt. (either contribute proportionally based on income or determine an amount for us each to keep for personal no questions asked spending and have the rest go towards bills, savings or debts). We have mutual accountability to do that, visibility and access to each others income and spending and ensuring money is going where we agree to. Part of this is for her to put 20% of her LLC income towards taxes. She hasn't saved in the past and she's paying of a $5k tax bill from last year because of it.

2. Based on her response there will be a couple of avenues. The most unlikely scenario (but most ideal for us) I think is that she goes along with what I propose.

A - Her response is exactly what it's been before. She refuses both transparency or to contributing more and will keep the status quo.

B - She might say yes to transparency and show me everything. But ultimately she is unwilling to make any changes, contribute more, etc despite what we find in the patterns of spending, her contributions.

As far as next steps and separating finances the following I do have power over and would need to take steps to

Transparency but no change:
I stop paying for any personal items for her and reduce or eliminate paying for dining out (currently spend $600-$800 a month). I no longer pay for her gas, her tolls, separate our iphone apple accounts (currently I pay for apps, subscriptions on our iphones and we share an appleid). I no longer cover optional items but the biggest thing I can do is stopping to pay for dining out. Not as a punishment but because it's one of the only areas I can realistically cut back. there are a couple smaller bills of hers I pay that I would stop if she won't take them on. I would have to decide if I would keep paying items out of a joint account or setup a new personal account for monthly bills. I would cover the shared bills I currently do (can't force her to) but she would be responsible for her own expenses. I would prioritize emergency savings and paying down debt. It would be very distressing for her as she emotionally requires me taking her out weekly. That would stop or we would have to do cheap/free things unless she wants to pay. There also wouldn't be any money I would direct to a savings for travel or goals until some financial stability is established which could be a couple of years.

If she refuses transparency and won't change contributions:
If she won't share her financial information I would need to separate our finances for tax purposes because we are both on an LLC that she receives payment for. If I can't see her accounts to ensure accurate income information to file taxes then I would have no choice but to file jointly this year but would remove myself off the LLC in 2026 and future years we would have to file individually. Unfortunately this would mean more of a tax burden overall but she has outright said she doesn't want to claim all her income so I cannot trust that she is not committing tax evasion (which essentially puts me at risk because I'm the one giving the information to our accountant and we file jointly). this would happen as well if she won't change or I can't get verification that she's actually putting 20% into an account for business so that's covered.

There is a 3rd and probably some other options I'm not thinking of but she could refuse transparency and offer some token more contribution. I would have some grey area to deal with. I feel like I'm still dealing with a situation where there's financial infidelity - hiding income and spending.  Plus regardless unless I know what she's earning and can verify 20% of consulting income is in fact getting set aside I have to separate as much as I can.

Yes, I am considering divorce as an option. For me I want to express what I need, follow through with the consequences of that and make next step decisions based on that. I still hope she might come around if I'm consistent with my boundaries. If she doesn't come around things will likely get worse. I will continue to get more resentful of her, and she will get more resentful of me because I'm not treating her like the princess she thinks she is. Things will move towards a natural conclusion and I'm realistic that may mean divorce.

[Notwendy]

If you have been filing taxes as a married couple - how do you not know her earnings? They’d be reported on W2 and 1099 forms that you both submit? Curious how she’d keep that secret on joint filing - you both have to sign. I can see how she’s able to hide her expenses.

[campbembpd]

If you have been filing taxes as a married couple - how do you not know her earnings? They’d be reported on W2 and 1099 forms that you both submit? Curious how she’d keep that secret on joint filing - you both have to sign. I can see how she’s able to hide her expenses.

Excellent question - she does have 1 consulting job where she gets a 1099, a p/t employment where she gets a W2, but also had a private practice where clients typically pay via Zelle, Venmo or PayPal. That can be a significant source of income. That’s part of the LLC and I submit a spreadsheet with all the info to our accountant along with of course all the usual tax forms. Last year I had access to her accounts so I was able to download the transactions and reconcile in consulting income for the year. But that all consulting income goes into her personal accounts so unless she allows me access I have no idea of what she actually earned.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Camp-
I worked in the financial industry for years and volunteered counseling in financial literacy to people in transitional housing for numerous years.  There’s one thing I’m wondering that I’m not sure you mentioned; and I’m hoping this doesn’t upset you.

This sort of dovetails with what Notwendy mentions about whether or not you’re completely aware of the entirety of your W’s income for tax purposes.

*Are you certain that your wife does NOT have credit card availability and/or debt that you’re unaware of?  You may be able to run a credit report to confirm what you think you know.

In addition, and I’ll have to look up the phrase and meaning since I don’t absolutely recall, but it nearly applied to me during my divorce in 2011-2012… There was (in the U.S. at least) something like “the innocent spouse” clause.  This had to do with my not knowing what my exH was or was not reporting in terms of income while I was still attached to him; and he leaned toward financial dishonesty when no one was watching.  You may wish to look into that to protect yourself.

I know this is way beyond your topic of HRT, but there are ways for you to more easily work down your debt burden (without paying it ALL off) if you want to do that.  I’d be happy to discuss that with you.

Finally ON the HRT topic, I’ve been on an estrogen only patch since my total hysterectomy in 2004.  The patch has never caused mood swings for me. I was not in menopause when I had to have the surgery, so maybe that makes the difference?  I will say that when I get the blues, I take an OTC liquid iron/B complex supplement that was originally suggested by my gynecologist in 2004.  The stuff is so good.

Take good care.  It really does seem like you’re doing everything you possibly can.

Warmly,
Gems

[CC43]

Hi there,

From a financial perspective, I guess if I were in your shoes, I'd take control of what I can control.  That is, expecting your spouse to cooperate with a long-term, belt-tightening plan probably isn't going to work in practice.  My guess is, she might agree in theory to controlling spending, but when the time comes, she'll continue to spend just like she always has.  And she'll expect you to contribute and sacrifice today, while her increased contribution will be delayed in the future.  And then when the future comes, she'll renege, one way or another--she might argue she never made a deal with you in the first place.  Even if you have a written agreement, she'll probably rip it up, or have some sort of meltdown to force you to relent.  Is that how things have gone down to date?  If so, it's more likely than not that she'll continue to spend carelessly, and not contribute her fair share to the household expenses, no matter how transparent, earnest or reasonable you are.  Financial responsibility takes a lot of planning, determination and delayed gratification, and those are traits your spouse just doesn't have.  But YOU do.

If that's an accurate portrayal of reality, then what you can control is you.  You can make sure the household essentials are covered; anything your spouse ends up contributing is gravy.  You can completely cut out non-essential expenses for a time (start with six months), until you get your debt under control.  If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't spend any money whatsoever on vacations, restaurants or take-out, except for a very special day like your birthday.  Restaurants, convenience foods and travel are wants, not needs, and what you need right now is financial security.  If I were in your shoes, I'd also cut out entertainment, such as streaming services.  If your wife wants a streaming service, then she can pick up the tab.  It doesn't have to be forever.  You are prioritizing your financial security over entertainment.  In the meantime, you can explore free alternatives, such as checking out books or DVDs from the library, or inviting friends over for a pot-luck/game night, for example.

Given that pwBPD are erratic and prone to meltdowns, I'm not even sure if I would enter into a detailed discussion.  I think I'd just do it.  I'd stop paying for the streaming/cable service, and when she asks, I'd just state the truth:  "I have to reduce expenses because we have a huge amount of debt that's growing, not shrinking, and I can't continue spending on non-essentials."  I'd stop going to restaurants and buying take-out; I'd make dinner every night, and pack lunches to take to work.  If my spouse insisted on a weekly date night, then I'd cook a special meal, and bring out the candles and cloth napkins.  If she insists on a restaurant meal, then she can pay the bill.  I'd shop for a cheaper phone/data plan and sign up for it.  I'd cancel any subscriptions I'm not using, and explore cheaper options (or pauses) for ones I am using, such as a gym membership.  

[ForeverDad]

I will agree with gemsforeyes, HRT is probably not the cause of your troubles.  Yes, it can be part of the problem and it can trigger more troublesome issues but the core issue is the undiagnosed Borderline PD traits.  If she is not diligently addressing those perceptions and patterns, then it's not going to get better - at least not by much - and it could get worse.

I recall that after my child was born, my then-spouse behaved for over a year as though she had postpartum depression.  It was so difficult.  Then she quit breastfeeding and life was so much better for a couple months.  Then one of her friends called her a traitor and the march of ranting and raging continued and life worsened again.  In her case nursing a baby was a factor for a time, but underlying it all was the personality dysfunction. 

Fortunately, your children are adults and so custody and parenting issues so problematical for those of us with minor children shouldn't impact you as you try to separate at least part of your life from your spouse's life.

[Notwendy]

I'll be a third opinion on menopause and HRT. HRT forms and recommendations have changed over time. BPD mother went on HRT at menopause and due to finding risk factors with that particular type of HRT, they took her off. So I saw her both on it and off it and her BPD behaviors were there in both situations.

HRT has been revised, and newer forms that don't have the side effects from the previous forms are used. I know many women on it. It hasn't caused severe mood swings as far as I know.

What I did see with BPD mother is that her BPD behavior would vary over time. It was always there but less when there was less stress and increased with more stress- normal life stress like moving, or if she wasn't feeling well. If we think of BPD behaviors as maladaptive coping mechanisms, it would make sense there's more at times of stress and less when there isn't.

There was also the tendency to blame whatever external was going on for her behaviors. It's the hormones, it's the move, it's that someone upset her. This is projection and also feeling in victim perspective, and avoiding the shame of accountability and blame.

If she was coping with any stressor with her BPD behaviors- hormone changes could be considered one kind of stressor, but they aren't the cause of the BPD behaviors. Or the reason for her feeling how she feels could have nothing to do with the HRT but she assumes/projects it's the reason.

My guess is that your wife will react emotionally to the discussion on finances. If you do it before she starts HRT- you will then know it isn't due to the hormones. If you do it after, you won't know for certain. However, I agree with CC43- that talking about it to her may not be as effective as taking action with your own finances.

[Notwendy]

The money issues related to my mother's spending were long standing. I could not fully understand what drove her to doing this. I asked one of her nurses (when she was in assisted living) if she'd seen anything like this- and she thought it was on the level of addiction, uncontrollable. People will gamble, drink, shop, use drugs, even to the point of harm with these and BPD mother also spent to that point.

I think there was more to it though. BPD mother had a huge need for affirmation. She also had a sense of entitlement. This was an NPD aspect of her disorder. That the rules didn't apply to her. I could not imagine spending so much money that my spouse would be having financial stresses. I think your wife is aware that the money is uneven, I think my mother was too but I think this was one way she could feel special or cared for.

The idea of changing the fancy dinners out for a home cooked meal did not work with BPD mother. She seemed to like expensive things.

Mostly the money issues were my father's problem. We kids were still cared for- our basic needs were met. We had food, clothes, education. We didn't feel entitled to our parents' money but we also were aware of the stress over it and knew to not ask Dad for much.

When my father got ill, I became concerned about how BPD mother would handle the finances. I offered to help manage it. BPD mother refused and  told people I was forcing her to give me financial information. Since this felt like a threat to my own integrity, I backed away. BPD mother kept her financial information confidential. We had no idea about what she did with it.

Where this got difficult for me was that she later made me POA. I agreed because I felt it was safer for her to do so. She tended to trust strangers over her own family. It was better if family had access to her finances. However she still kept it all secret. I had no idea where her money was or what she had. We knew my father had planned for their retirement and left her a significant amount, we didn't know what or where. It was concerning because, if she needed me to act as her POA, I'd have no idea how to do that. I asked her several times- but she refused.

Some time later, we found a paper at her home that was a home equity loan. She had spent almost everything left to her and was spending down the value of her home.  We moved her to assisted living, sold the house, put the rest into her bank accounts and she promptly began overly spending it too. Since she was legally competent, none of us could stop her.

I understood then why my father couldn't stop her either. Your situation is different- my father earned the money in the family. With your dual incomes, if you control your part- she may not like it but she has her own income to spend if she likes. I agree with CC43 that the aspect you can control is your income. Your BPD wife already knows what she's doing probably isn't OK- but she does it anyway.

When you speak to your wife- make it about you, not her. Saying things like "I love you but I can't afford all the fancy dinners" and cut those out. Cut some of your own expenses too. This is standard advice. You do like Dave Ramsey with your money. Your wife will do what she does with hers. The money you save should go in an account that is only in your name, to protect it.

As to the LLC, eventually she will have to provide you access for tax time. If she's done that before, then she will likely do it again. If she refuses then, simply say you can't do the taxes without the information, she will need to file separatetly. File for an extention and then you can dissolve the LLC. But chances are when she actually has to give it to you, she probably will, but not before then.

[campbembpd]

Thanks for the responses and to be honest, I agree with most of what’s been responded from all of you…

As far as the HRT goes, that is definitely not the cause of her BPD symptoms. Unable to recognize that she has had symptoms throughout our relationship, ranging in severity. I mean, I absolutely recall having a lot of thoughts, especially about her sense of entitlement and ridiculous expectations when it came to money many years before her hysterectomy. At the time, I was so locked in my trauma responses I just constantly gave in. There were other things, the inability to be alone and fear of abandonment has been there throughout. The HRT I would say has exacerbated symptoms. It’s almost like putting some gasoline on the fire. But the fire is absolutely there regardless.

Gems - I’ll DM you because I’m absolutely interested in getting advice if you have any on paying down the debt…

CC43 - you hit a pretty spot on. And I pretty much agree with that assessment. Even if she agrees to something right now, it still gonna require long-term follow-through and self-control, which she doesn’t have. The only way a plan would work as if she really agreed to it which include an accountability and us looking at things every month. And again this is all pie in the sky stuff because I really don’t think she’s gonna go along with it. The end of the day, the only way I think it would work is if she agreed to have a personal account that her personal money was transferred to and that’s what she got to spend, and everything else was transferred out and considered not touchable. But again, I’d be less surprised to see pigs fly.

Notwendy - I really don’t expect her to react well but I figure if there is any chance of a slightly different interaction, it’s going to be now before her HRT. Of course it’s still kind of laughable because even if she agrees with something or doesn’t have a meltdown, her feelings and actions may change in the next weeks and months.

Unfortunately, even cutting out the non-essentials I really can’t make ends meet and pay down debt and save if I don’t have some sort of even minimal contribution from her that she’s making right now. As they say it’s better than nothing…

It’s really awful that I’m even having to make these decisions. It really does hit for me how it’s more like I’m dealing with a child than another adult. Long-term even making these changes I know it’s not sustainable. I’m not holding out a lot of hope, I’m just trying to make steps that I think are the best for our family and I’m going to control what I have control over. I mean, if it stays how it is long-term, then I think it really puts into question the viability of the relationship. I’ve made it very comfortable for her throughout our marriage, being codependent and having a fawn response. So I am also trying to take a level of responsibility for myself and my actions. I’ve let this continue for a long time without putting up solid boundaries or taking the steps. I definitely feel I owe it to myself and the marriage to at least take these next strong steps. Either the uncomfortableness will force her to make some changes, or it won’t. I’m definitely not blaming myself, but I am taking responsibility for my share of this, I in fact, don’t expect the conversation to go well. I don’t expect her to make changes, but I have to say the words and I actually have to follow through this time.

Wendy, just another thing on your response and talking about your mother and I’ve seen things you’ve written in the past. It honestly sounds like a lot of parallels with my wife. She’s definitely has a sense of entitlement. She uses a lot of phrases like she deserves XYZ. She definitely puts herself up on a pedestal. But yeah, no concept of finances. We even had a new thing come up this week where first she suggested we buy our daughter a new phone and just do a payment plan (which is essentially a three year payment so another thousand dollars in debt…) during the same sentence she talked about a medical bill that she’s gonna have to pay when she goes in for hormone therapy because she basically decided to stop paying her doctor. The agreed monthly fee that she was supposed to pay him for 8+ months. And she just cavalierly, said she might have to put it on a credit card… but I do have a lot of concerns long-term and the next months, this conversation and what happens really in the next three, six, 12 months is going to guide a lot of of my next decisions. I think I’ve mentioned before that we have an adult child with special needs. It’s very concerning for me because when I talked about, even trying to save up for his future, she just blows it off and says vague things like her family’s gonna make sure he’s taken care of, but there’s no plan. I’m pretty certain I’m gonna have to take the next steps of doing things like setting up a trust for my son and changing my life insurance beneficiaries so most of the money goes into a trust and not to her. I mean, I haven’t figured out if it’s half of the money or most of it but I’m gonna be doing a state planning for my son in case something happens to me or us. But at this point I 100% do not trust that if I passed away, and my wife got the substantial life insurance on me that there would be anything left in Five or 10 years, let alone when my son would need it later in life 

Thanks all

[CC43]

Hi there,

Just to follow up on some themes.

Regarding the new phone for your daughter, I'd say, let her keep her old one.  It's a luxury, not a necessity.  If your daughter is 13 or older and really wants a new phone, then she can do babysitting, dog walking, neighborhood yard work, extra chores or other age-appropriate jobs to earn the money for it.  A $1k phone is NOT in your family's budget right now.  I think it's not "cruel" at all to allow your daughter to work for what she wants.  I know I took on extra chores for an entire year, to save up enough money for my dream bicycle, which I purchased when I was a young teen.  I think I learned the value of hard work because of that.  And I can assure you, I really appreciated that bike, and I took exquisite care of it, too.

Regarding the feelings of entitlement, performative spending and lack of self-control in finances, I see evidence of that with the pwBPD and pwNPD in my life.  For example, my young adult BPD stepdaughter has spent thousands of dollars on elective cosmetic procedures whose results are invisible to me and her dad.  She prioritizes spending on cosmetic surgeries and other non-essentials, which detracts time, money and energy from what she should really be doing--namely, working.  (She's spending the money she got as a graduation gift, and the proceeds from selling the car her dad and I gave her.)  By the way, though she was diagnosed with BPD, her psychiatrist indicated she probably has narcissistic traits.

As for the upwNPD in my life (my ex-brother-in-law), I see a lot of similarities with your wife.  He is a compulsive spender.  The financial support he provides to his children puts them at the poverty line.  Meanwhile, he continues to order out all of his meals, and he buys so much stuff, he doesn't even know what he has ordered.  The imbalance of spending on himself vs. what he spends on his own children is so egregious that the family court actually pointed out the unfairness of the situation.  On top of that, he refused to participate in core parenting responsibilities, such as take his kids to their activities and doctor's appointments, and show up for parent-teacher conferences.  Meanwhile, he has lived in the marital home for six plus years, locking up my sister's equity.  He wouldn't qualify for a mortgage to buy her out of the house because he chooses to remain long-term unemployed (he lost his job a couple of weeks after he and my sister separated, and he never tried to find another one).  When the divorce ruling was made, he was supposed to put the house up for sale, and give my sister her share of the proceeds.  That was six months ago.  He hasn't been able to put the house on the market yet.  Why?  Because the realtor says he still has dozens of unopened boxes in the house of stuff he orderded online.  The realtor can't just throw his stuff away, especially if she doesn't know what it is.  But he is too lazy and/or disordered to sort through his purchases himself, or convince a family member to help him with that task.  My point being, his spending seems disordered, as he doesn't even bother to open his purchases . . .

That's a long-winded way of saying, maybe your spouse has a touch of NPD, and the excessive spending reflects a mix of lack of planning and self-control, plus entitlement, plus a need to project an image of superiority and status, no matter the cost to the family.  If that's the case, I think it's best you take control of what you can, to save yourself and your finances.  Relying on compliance from a disordered person who isn't in therapy is simply too unrealistic.  Even if their intentions are good, their insatiable needs override them.  I also wonder if they really know the difference between "needs" and "wants," because everything seems to be a "need" to them. 

[campbembpd]

CC43 - thanks for the note. I already said no to the phone. Not a need right now. And yes, 100% I don’t need to buy it for her. Shes 19 and works and in college.

I 100% believe my wife has some NPD traits as well. Extreme sense of entitlement, believes she deserves special treatment and the rules don’t apply to her. She brags a lot and exaggerates/lies about accomplishments, money. Facts are regularly distorted to make her look better. She also talks about herself constantly, well a lot. It’s interesting my therapy has allowed me to sit back and be more observant. Like I didn’t even realize it was happening but there are nights where nearly the whole night she spend talking about how great of a thing she did at work or was recognized. I mean hours and hours or repetitive talking, and I barely say a few words for the night.

She was offered a p/t job where she was contracting and I  was excited for her, we went out for dinner to celebrate. On the day she started I even bought some balloons and wrote a little congratulations card for when she got home. She was disappointed and treated me disgusted that she wasn’t being celebrated enough. Expected to be taken out for a big celebratory dinner or something (even though I already did weeks before to celebrate the offer).

I think that hits the nail in the head! For her every want is a need.

[Notwendy]

Unfortunately, even cutting out the non-essentials I really can’t make ends meet and pay down debt and save if I don’t have some sort of even minimal contribution from her that she’s making right now. As they say it’s better than nothing…

It’s really awful that I’m even having to make these decisions. It really does hit for me how it’s more like I’m dealing with a child than another adult.

But at this point I 100% do not trust that if I passed away, and my wife got the substantial life insurance on me that there would be anything left in Five or 10 years, let alone when my son would need it later in life 

I want to address these aspects of your post- in the hope that it will give you some ideas of how to best prepare for your son one day but also not just your son, but for you, your wife, and, the impact of the preparation- or lack of- or the potential financial and emotional effect of these dynamics on your daughter.

That your living expenses are in a situation where you need a contribution from your wife is concerning, because it relies on an unreliable person. I learned even by my teens to not rely on my BPD mother for anything. There are emotional aspects to money. One is power and control.

That you need her money for your combined life style puts you in a precarious situation. It may seem ludicrous to suggest that you make changes to live on your income alone-but it's a way of maintaining control of your own money and future and this makes a difference. Changes like this can not be done quickly. Start with what you can do. The obvious one is the fancy dinners out. It's not sensible to do that when in debt.

With a person who has NPD, controlling you with money puts them above you. Asking BPD mother for money (Dad earned it, but she controlled it) would give her license for humiliation and control. You would be "less" in her eyes. In your situation, you are a main contributor but the emotions, power, dynamics- with a BPD/NPD person aren't logical.

You can not control if your wife contributes or not. The natural consequence of her not doing this is that the family lives on your salary alone. It may not be fair (but fair isn't a consideration here) and your wife won't like it but this is  what happens with money:  if one's expenses exceed income- the money will be gone.  It's better that your wife learns this now, because if this were to continue- the possible circumstances of two elderly parents in need, and a brother with special needs could fall on the shoulders of your daughter, who also may have her own family needs to consider at the same time.

What do you want for your daughter? Out of all of you, she is your least concern and that's good for her, but emotionally she still needs to know you care about her, even if she doesn't need your money. It also appears she has a moral core and won't let her elderly parents or brother lack basic needs but she also may have her own family to care for too. You've mentioned your concern for your son, but what about your daughter? While it's important to plan for your son's needs - it's also important to plan for yours (and your wife's should you stay together).

I was concerned that BPD mother would go through her money too quickly and then not have the savings in her own time of need. We would be willing to help an elderly parent who, through circumstances they could not control, was in need. This was different though. She did not have need. Her spending was the issue and she was keeping her own finances secret. While she didn't ask us for money as long as she had hers to spend- we were concerned about her running out. We didn't know how serious her circumstances were until we found out by accident that she had leveraged the equity in her home, and had few savings left.

She would not cooperate with any plan to be transparent, to budget. Asking her about money led to her accusing us of wanting it. I could not be involved with her finances if being accused of this. So when another reliable relative offered to help her with a budget- I was relieved. She agreed at first but then changed her mind.

The best gift my father left his children was not for us but for her, and it was one I was thankful for every day. He had put some of the money into a fund that paid a monthly sum which was sufficient to meet her needs. Eventually BPD mother allowed me to access this to cover her bills. However there was stress and drama and power struggle over what was "her money". While I had wished my parents had allowed me to help manage it earlier to avoid a financial crisis, I realized there'd be more of this, and it would not have been effective. I had no legal power over what she did with it. There was no way to control her, she was going to do what she was going to do.

Consider this idea when you plan for your savings. Such funds may come with different risks/benefits, so they probably should not be the entire of the savings but one also has to consider the circumstances and behavior of the person who has access to the funds. I am not a financial advisor but I think it's wise to work with one for planning for your circumstances.

I think it also helps to have a third person to point to as the decision maker with your finances. Rather than say "no more fancy dinners" it's "financial advise is to stop the dinners". It takes down the emotional aspect of the money decisions.

[ForeverDad]

What do you want for your daughter? Out of all of you, she is your least concern and that's good for her, but emotionally she still needs to know you care about her, even if she doesn't need your money.

From your daughter's perspective, she needs to see your example as one to follow in future years as she develops her own family relationships.  Will it be a "stuck" or appeasing example or one that was properly "in charge" in a reasonable but firm way?

However there was stress and drama and power struggle over what was "her money".

As my mother enlightened me when I was in my single years and my grandfather had given me $5, just the once, and asked me not to tell his wife, my step-grandmother... "Her money is her money, his money is their money."  He was retired but mom said she had so much money that she had to pay taxes on her savings interest.

I think it also helps to have a third person to point to as the decision maker with your finances. Rather than say "no more fancy dinners" it's "financial advise is to stop the dinners". It takes down the emotional aspect of the money decisions.

The unspoken reality, of course is that what you say has meant little if anything to her for years due to the mental dysfunction.  Sort of as Rodney Dangerfield would say, I get no respect.  This removes it from "I say..." to "The tough reality is..."

[campbembpd]

That your living expenses are in a situation where you need a contribution from your wife is concerning, because it relies on an unreliable person. I learned even by my teens to not rely on my BPD mother for anything. There are emotional aspects to money. One is power and control.

That you need her money for your combined life style puts you in a precarious situation. It may seem ludicrous to suggest that you make changes to live on your income alone-but it's a way of maintaining control of your own money and future and this makes a difference. Changes like this can not be done quickly. Start with what you can do. The obvious one is the fancy dinners out. It's not sensible to do that when in debt.

I could in fact 'get by' without her income if I cut out a couple of other non essentials but I just couldn't afford her car payment or any of her expenses. I could in theory pay all the bills but would then have very very little to put away for savings or paying down additional debt. The only other option would be seriously looking at moving. But wife wouldn't agree to this and since we're both on the mortgage and note, it's probably a step I would  have to take after divorcing. I mean if it got to the point where she pulled back on even the small contributions she's making now, that's what would happen.
[/quote]

What do you want for your daughter? Out of all of you, she is your least concern and that's good for her, but emotionally she still needs to know you care about her, even if she doesn't need your money. It also appears she has a moral core and won't let her elderly parents or brother lack basic needs but she also may have her own family to care for too. You've mentioned your concern for your son, but what about your daughter? While it's important to plan for your son's needs - it's also important to plan for yours (and your wife's should you stay together).

I definitely want better for my daughter. I don't want her to have my traits or my wifes! We have a good open relationship and my encouragement has gotten her into therapy for the trauma she's lived through. My hope and prayer is her getting this therapy early on will help her deal in ways I never did until now in my late 40s... She's shared with me some of what she talks about with her therapist and they're talking about boundaries. My daughter also opened to me that based on what my she shared with the therapist, her therapist told her she suspects her mom may have something called borderline personality disorder. I've never shared that name/term with my daughter but makes sense that her therapist honed in on that after just a few sessions... makes me feel encouraged that they're on a good track.

Also - I am absolutely trying to be a better role model. Through discussion and modeling show her (at least moving forward) that setting healthy boundaries are necessary and okay and if mom reacts poorly then that doesn't change the need for boundaries, it's not our job to fix her or do what she wants to appease her. My daughter is one of my key motivations for doing things differently and better.

I think it also helps to have a third person to point to as the decision maker with your finances. Rather than say "no more fancy dinners" it's "financial advise is to stop the dinners". It takes down the emotional aspect of the money decisions.

Yeah I did try that and we saw a financial counselor a few years back. But the result was the same sort of dysregulation that occurred during every couples therapist session. So I'm not inclined to go back to a financial advisor unless she gets individual therapy. At a bare minimum I wouldn't go back to a financial counselor without full transparency of her finances so we can review spending patterns and bring everything to the table. But again - her shame/abandonment/other BPD traits won't allow her to take feedback so no real point unless she gets help IMO.


[/quote]

[Notwendy]

Everything you are doing for your daughter is helpful. I also wanted to emphasize that taking care of your finances is helpful to her. Hopefully it will be a long time from now but there is a time when parents retire, income stops, and they may have care needs.

Elder care in the US is not covered by Medicare and Social Security is not sufficient support for all of an elderly person's needs. Caring for elderly parents is a challenge even in normal situations but for most adult children- they want to be of assistance in some capacity. For aging parents who care about their children- they also don't wish to cause their children emotional or financial distress. Ideally, it's a cooperative situation.

The situation with my mother is that she didn't care, just like she didn't care that her spending cause my father stress and just like your wife isn't willing to cooperate with you, or a financial adviser, she won't cooperate with your D either.

If you aren't able to put the brakes on your wife's spending, neither can your D, neither can anyone. Nobody could stop my mother's spending. The only boundary you can have is on your own money.

Taking care of your finances is taking care of your D, because she won't want to see either of you be in need or go without.

[campbembpd]

Everything you are doing for your daughter is helpful. I also wanted to emphasize that taking care of your finances is helpful to her. Hopefully it will be a long time from now but there is a time when parents retire, income stops, and they may have care needs.

Elder care in the US is not covered by Medicare and Social Security is not sufficient support for all of an elderly person's needs. Caring for elderly parents is a challenge even in normal situations but for most adult children- they want to be of assistance in some capacity. For aging parents who care about their children- they also don't wish to cause their children emotional or financial distress. Ideally, it's a cooperative situation.

The situation with my mother is that she didn't care, just like she didn't care that her spending cause my father stress and just like your wife isn't willing to cooperate with you, or a financial adviser, she won't cooperate with your D either.

If you aren't able to put the brakes on your wife's spending, neither can your D, neither can anyone. Nobody could stop my mother's spending. The only boundary you can have is on your own money.

Taking care of your finances is taking care of your D, because she won't want to see either of you be in need or go without.

Absolutely and it's not that far away when our retirement will be around the corner!

Speaking of parents not wanting to distress their children - my mother... I've been seeing scary parallels between my wife and mother (sense of entitlement, inability to handle stress to name a few). My mother has put awful burdens on a couple of my siblings...

Through therapy and now doing some work on CPTSD I realized how much my mother (and father) created some early and developmental childhood trauma. The environment developed in me the type of trauma response (fawning) ripe for someone with BPD and/or NPD such as my wife. I have very little memory of my childhood before I was 13. Even my teen years are pretty spotty. I've talked a lot with my sister who has pretty clear memories of our childhood house. She described the house and my mom as expecting a lot of perfection. She was upset if we didn't behave as expected, especially in public. My sister had a lot of memories of my mom being upset with my dad because she had a certain sense of entitlement, wanting finer things then my dad (a carpenter who worked out of town on construction projects a lot) could provide. Like I said I don't have a ton of memories but I do know the belt was a frequent punishment we would get if my mom was upset. We'd get it when dad got home. I have memories of being slapped because I wasn't ready for church on time. We grew up in a mormon household. No offense to mormons, many of my extended family are still active and they're fantastic, but for me I believe it absolutely had an impact / contribution to creating conditions leading to CPTSD. Being instilled with conditional worthiness lead to chronic shame, it was a culture of obedience where I learned autonomy is a sin, learned emotional suppression, fear based indoctrination, and other areas that were not healthy in hindsight. I stopped going to the church in my early teens. My parents were pretty absent (i.e. neglectful) and dealing with their own issues and eventually their divorce also in my early teens. I always felt like I raised myself and was parentified very early on. I was using alcohol at 13, experimenting with drugs at 14. I was very very lucky to have a couple of friends that eventually steered me right. I'm trying to process a lot of unprocessed grief and anger for the neglect. I don't get it and it pisses me off. I have a son and daughter, I would have known if they were drinking or doing drugs as teenagers. I was involved. I don't know how it's not possible, which makes me realize how much neglect was occurring. I used to be proud of the fact that I got my first real job when I was 14. Looking back it was seriously messed up. I was working as a line cook in a family restaurant. I would work till close which was sometimes midnight or 1am. The staff would pay for drinks that would be set aside for after the restaurant and bar closed and I was drinking right along with them then would take a taxi home at 2am. I was smoking pot, hash, started smoking cigarettes when I was 14. Looking back I'm like WTF? I didn't have parents... there was not one conversation with me ever about what to do after graduating high school. Except I didn't graduate. I was doing drugs, working jobs and dropped out stupidly at 17. I went back a couple years later to get my GED. On my own many years later I got my university education.

After my parents split my dad got full custody. Mom didn't want to have us kids, she was burnt out and went on to try to live her best life. She was partying I think, but we moved out of the country. My dad did do the best he could with 4 kids but there's still a lot of crap that shouldn't have happened. I bounced back and forth a few times between where my dad lived in California and my mom in western Canada. There was no stability. Like I said I had a couple of good friends that helped me get some sort of good path thank God. I had an interest in computers and a friend helped me get a job, a really good job with a technology company and that changed my trajectory.

Looking back it was very predictable for what would happen to me relationship wise. The first girl that was seriously interested in me in my early 20s I latched onto (my now wife). I had only had casual flings before that, no serious girlfriends. Ugh. I didn't know what I was getting into but saw a few red flags early on... one of the biggest I recall was my then girlfriend would not infrequently go out with her girlfriends to the bar, get drunk then come over to my place at 1am to wake me up and pick a fight with me. Just random fights then she wouldn't remember what she was mad about the next morning. The thing is I didn't know that was strange, I didn't know what a normal relationship looked like. I think I was so damaged that I wanted someone, anyone that showed love to me and I was going to to anything to make it last, put up with anything and divorce was never going to be an option because of how messed up my parents were with it.

Talk about crazy... Shortly after I got married, my mother and father rekindled their romantic relationship after both being re-married to others and divorced. My parents re-married after being apart for about 10 years. My dad wasn't happy long term however and was actually planning to leave my mom but he got really sick, and not sure if it was good or bad but at least she was there to help out the last few years of his life.

My dad passed away when my mom was 62, this was about 11 years ago. She declared she was retiring and decided to retire and start taking her social security early (which meant less per month). There was nothing wrong with her and she didn't have a large retirement account or anything. She could have worked and we all were like WTF mom, you should be working while you're still healthy, etc. We were all worried about her financial well being, I don't know everything but I know my dad didn't have much to leave her. Funny parallel here is the irony of how much my wife would bitch to me about my mom and the burden she was putting on her kids to take care of her by quitting work at 62. Meanwhile my wife at this time was in her early 40s, well educated and was refusing to do any work other then 5-10 hours of private consulting and would complain when I asked her to pay her own $300 HRT monthly payment, the only bill she was helping with. And still today dealing with my wife's sense of entitlement and putting an extreme financial burden on her family, namely me. This is just one of the many things my wife has complained to me about re: my mother where I see the exact same quality/trait/behavior in my wife. A little scary...

When my dad passed, my sister offered my mom to come live with her and her family. But things went south quick... My brother and I have had a very low bar of expectation with my mom. We knew not to expect much. We knew there was likely to be a complaint if there was an activity done with mom. Things are just very difficult for her, she often complains and it's made us not want to include her in a lot of things in the past. When living with my sister my mom despite not working was often not up to going out to the grandkids events, she would snap at them frequently when they came into her room. According to my sis she had a very bad attitude. After a few years my sister felt like she had to ask my mom to leave. Their relationship was soured to the point where my sister didn't talk to my mom for years. They talk now only after my mom got cancer but their relationship was never the same.

After my sisters place, my brother offered to take her in. Fortunately he works in medical and is the 'well off' sibling. He built a mother-in-law detached suite where my mom has lived for 8 years. He was able to do it financially and the separation of her own fully self contained 'apartment' I think made it manageable for them.

So yeah... I worry about this kind of thing happening with my wife. I'm trying to take care of my end of things long term but have no idea what my wife is going to do if our marriage doesn't work out. I really don't think she can control her spending. All she seems to care about is today. She's not able to delay gratification.

[Notwendy]

Speaking of parents not wanting to distress their children - my mother... I've been seeing scary parallels between my wife and mother (sense of entitlement, inability to handle stress to name a few). My mother has put awful burdens on a couple of my siblings...

So yeah... I worry about this kind of thing happening with my wife. I'm trying to take care of my end of things long term but have no idea what my wife is going to do if our marriage doesn't work out. I really don't think she can control her spending. All she seems to care about is today. She's not able to delay gratification.

It is good you are in therapy. Our family of origin does influence who we are with as a partner. I have had to work on my own freeze and fawn, co-dependent tendencies.

Attempting to change BPD mother's spending was impossible. I tried, her family members tried. It did feel like dealing with an addict who couldn't manage being cut of from her supply. But she also didn't seem to have a real concept of money- because her needs, and many wants, had been provided for, regardless of what she spent. When my father was working, if she spent money, there was more.

Eventually though- after retirement, the inflow of money changes and people need to learn how to manage that. The reality is that- if your wife continues her spending after retirement, the result could be dire. BPD mother had a monthly sum of money and in addition, she spent all her savings, and then, the house- without us knowing it. I don't know if she ever intended to tell us. But speaking to her, she seemed to not understand the consequences of what she did.

Her funds were so low, that she was in danger of the house being repossessed by the bank. And she was elderly, and needed assisted living help. What I had assumed was that- by the time she needed this, we could sell the house and use that money to pay for help for her. But now, unknown to us, she'd leveraged the house too.

Seeing my concern over this, she cornered me, insinuating I was after the house as an inheritance. My reply to her was "I don't care if the bank takes the house then, I care if the bank takes the house now, while you are in it". She acted shocked, she had no idea the bank could do that.

The only thing that stopped her spending was low funds in her account. I even consulted an attorney to see if I could intervene, but as long as she was legally competent, we could not. We'd not have let her go without essentials,  but we had to have a boundary, and BPD mother would challenge boundaries.

She'd call me with requests for things she didn't need. Items it would be draconian to refuse her. She'd call and say she was cold and needed a blanket or a sweater. But she had several blankets and sweaters. Truly, I'd have loved to give her a blanket, or a sweater, if I thought she'd actually like it, but I had seen this dynamic enough to know that this wasn't about a blanket. She didn't want a blanket. This was a manipulation.

With money though- there is a boundary. If all the money is spent, there's none left. If you leverage the house, the bank can take it. While your concern for your wife is how she could manage, at some point, there is a limit. Consider is it better for her to learn it now, while the two of you are working and independent?

[campbembpd]

Wanted to give an update. After putting off and putting off having a financial discussion with my wife before she got her HRT treatment (scheduled for today)  it all hit the fan yesterday.

I’ve been ruminating for a long time on this, well over a month, probably a couple of months at least. Trying to figure out the best timing, the best phrasing, how could I possibly do this with the least potential fallout. I know I know, this is no life and certainly not a healthy relationship. The goal seemed simple enough, get aligned on finances and prioritize, emergency savings and getting some debt paid down. I had been having a lot of anxiety, outright fear, and sleepless nights thinking about this conversation. It’s a conversation. I’ve tried to have many times over the years. I was holding onto a whisper of Hope that she might be receptive because she had been so far removed from her last HRT treatment almost a year ago in January.

I think a big part of my fear is that it would go the same as it had gone before, badly, and what that would mean for our relationship. That if it resulted in her spiraling, it would be irrefutable how ill she actually is, and she probably will not ever get better.

A few days ago, we had gone out on a family event to A theme park decorated for Christmas. This type of environment is nearly always a big trigger with my wife. Most visits like this have multiple times where she’s snapping at one of the kids or impatient or upset if there is an alcohol available. None of that happened this day. Again, she’s almost a year away from her HRT and in many respects, she’s been more level and able to handle distress in some cases. I was actually almost in tears after this day at the park. I couldn’t remember how many years it had been since we had a trip like this where there wasn’t some sort of blowout. The next day she even said to me that she feels good and balanced and she’s a little nervous about this HRT treatment. She said she wants me to remember how she is because this is the real her. She said if she gets her hormone treatment and she starts acting out, she said she will absolutely not do it again, but we’ll need to just make it through this few months.

That gave me a little hope so yesterday morning we were chatting while she was at work. And I just calmly said to her that I wanted to set aside some sometime that night to chat about finances and talk about a few things going into the new year. That was it, she was on a freefall spiral after that. Immediately she got defensive asking me what she’s done wrong, she said she she thought everything was great and we had write financed some debt this year so what am I so worried about. I immediately regretted bringing it up over the phone and I said I didn’t want to get into all the details but I said I didn’t want to talk about having transparency moving forward with our finances. I said my side of things is open to her, I’ve shared my account transactions and every detail of every dollar that’s coming in and where it’s going. She lost it and ultimately said absolutely not, she’s not gonna be transparent, and she’s not ready for that. (She found out about six months ago that I had a personal account she did not know about. This was an account that I set money aside to pay for bills and things that came up, it was not for my personal entertainment. I agreed 100% that I should not keep finances from her and we need to be transparent about everything. Ishowed her all the transactions so she knew where the money was going, but she uses this as a weapon to justify why she doesn’t have to be transparent with me.).

At that point once she said she wasn’t gonna be transparent. I said there’s really not much point moving forward with any conversation conversation then because I can’t really plan unless there’s transparency…

All the usual kind of things happened, she was getting angry over the phone, so I said I was done with the conversation and tried to take space. A barrage of text followed. She tried to call me like nine times in a row.

After she got home, it’s so much of a blur, but it was just a crazy spiral and complete BPD episode. I was working in my home office and then she came in and started taking out the gifts that I bought her for Christmas saying we need to take them back and she started trying to take them out of the office and I had to get them back in. She disconnected my work computer and my personal laptop and took them out of the office. She’s threatened to destroy my property before so I didn’t know what she was doing so I turned on the video camera.  Then she took my phone so she could delete the video. I was able to get my phone back without Incident, but as soon as I got it back in my hand, she looked like an animal that was about to attack and tried to nearly tackle me for the phone. I just kept saying I need space from you and I turn on the video recorder again, I said I just want space. Please give me space and she followed me into the spare room. She grabbed a bunch of clothes from my closet and took them out to the pool saying she was going to throw them in the pool. She didn’t realize her daughter was out there so when she came outside with all my clothes, my daughter was scared and upset asking her. What the heck she was doing. She just put my clothes on the ground instead.

I tried to close the door to the spare room and she pushed her way in before I could shut it then was a human barrier blocking me in the door and I just stood back as far as I could from her with a recorder on telling her that I wanted to take space and she needs to go to the bedroom. Oh, I almost forgot she had grabbed the neck of my T-shirt and pulled it so hard that it ruined the elastic in the neck, effectively turning the T-shirt into a work shirt. I told her if she continued to be physically aggressive I was gonna have to call the police. That’s when she really lost it! She started to tackle me to wrestle the phone for me and was acting out of her mind. Because I have already called the police on her and she had to go to a 72 hour cycle, she says it’s one of her biggest fears and triggers to think about going back there again. (But obviously she can’t compute that all she had to do was go take some space and let me stay away from her.)

I mean, she finally burned herself out after a while, and it was able to maintain some distance in the office. But she really upset her daughter, she upset her special-needs son. I was in the room comforting my son and she comes in and says something like do you want me to leave? Do you want me to leave and never come back to our son! I did voice record at all. I try not to have any sort of a conversation with her without that turned on

I stayed with my son in the other room, watching a movie with him and calmed them down. My wife stayed retreated in the bedroom, I don’t think she ate anything all day, but drank almost a bottle of wine then got high on marijuana..

I don’t regret what this showed me. I regret this had to happen right before Christmas. I really wished I could’ve waited till after the new year, but I really needed to see how she was gonna act before her HRT treatment. Like she said she wants me to remember that this is the real her, well this is the real her.

During the back-and-forth and all escalation and she continued to talk about us needing to go back to couples therapy. I said that’s really not an option as she won’t go to individual therapy. She says she knows she probably needs some individual therapy, but she said she won’t go, she said she hates therapy and it’s too hard and she won’t do it. Then she said most of the trauma she has to have therapy about is because of what I’ve done to her our whole marriage (of course).

Again, I really hate that this happened right before Christmas and I really still wanna try to make this a decent happy Christmas for my kids. I am admittedly trying to smooth things over today, but I’m doing it intentionally. I want things to be calm for Christmas and New Year’s because it’s gonna get really rough afterwards… I did tell her during the conversations that I’m gonna have to make some changes in the new year. I didn’t go into what. But I’m already putting things into motion. I have an appointment with my accountant to talk about how to separate myself from her financially from a tax perspective. I’m already reworking the budget and will basically be cutting out almost any extras such as eating out will be almost minimal, and I think I mentioned it in one of my other post that any sort of personal expense that I’m paying for is gonna stop. It’s gonna be really bad so she’s not gonna take a while but I need to play nice right now to get through Christmas and New Year’s.

She did make a very generous offer of helping out a few hundred dollars more a month! I said that’s fine and the household needs more of a contribution so I’ll definitely accept it but I still can’t really do planning unless we’re both willing to be transparent and cut cost.

100% it became clear that any talk about finances. She takes us a threat and says that I’m being controlling. Which is obviously ironic and projection. Because hiding her income and spending and not willing to work with me, is really the controlling aspect…

This doesn’t bode well for our future. I have to be somewhat strategic about a few things. But financially, she’s gonna flip her lid in the new year when I implement these changes. I’m gonna start putting money away into an emergency savings and into an account that I have access to in the event. I do need to contact an attorney. I’m just making a list of all the things I need to start doing in the new year. I’m sad and I’m angry, I hate that this is my life and I have to make these decisions. I hate that I feel so weak sometimes and that I’m so broken that I’ve lived with this as long as I have. I feel scared at the prospect of starting my life over at almost 50 years old. I’m scared of these smear campaign that she’ll no doubt try to implement. I’ve read splitting by Bill Eddie a few times, but probably need to reread that…

[Notwendy]

Yikes. I'm so sorry this happened. My BPD mother would do these kinds of things too, go ballistic, trash property in the house. She also drank and used some prescription drugs.

We were also afraid when she was around alcohol in public in case she drank and acted out.

I recall that Dad got a bonus at work and hid it from her. I know why he did it- the same reason you hid the extra account- not to be deceitful but because he needed it to pay bills. I was about the same age as your D when this happened.

Although you may feel the pressure to make Christmas special- sometimes it's at special occasions that were more stress on BPD mother and she tended to act out. Reducing stress is OK. The kids would be happy making popcorn and watching a movie on TV with you.

[Notwendy]

At least now you know it's not the HRT that is the reason for her reaction

[ForeverDad]

This was an extinction burst, trying to get you to retreat back in appeasing/passive mode while also venting her emotional overreactions.

I and many others here have "been there, experienced that."  I used to buy computer mice in bulk since my ex's rages were so frequent.  One time she threw our young child's computer onto the garage floor and bent it all up.  Do try to keep backups of all your electronic data, accounts, programs, and conflict documentation in safe places - preferably offsite - where she cannot access or destroy, whether physically or electronically.

No one can predict how this will eventually turn out.  There is a chance she will see the need for counseling, perhaps going together, and long term meaningful therapy.

On the other hand this could be an indicator that the marriage has little future.  No one can predict the precise outcome.  Let me be clear, whatever else happens or doesn't happen, you will still be a parent and father no matter the short term discord.  While you do care for her and her future as a person, you have greater priorities... your children and yourself.

[CC43]

Hi again,

It's unfortunate that your wife acted horrifically when you tried to discuss finances, and I'm sorry how terrible that must make you feel.  My opinion is that she is showing her true colors.  She's stonewalling in an aggressive way, with threats, destructive tendencies and projection (accusing you of being controlling), anything and everything to keep her finances secret so that she can continue to spend however she pleases.  I think there's a reason she's not being transparent, which is that she's hiding something from you.  It could be out-of-control, narcissistic spending, or it could be worse, like debts she hasn't told you about, or maybe spending on things she knows you would disapprove of.  The best-case scenario is that she wants all the money she earns for herself, and when she's in a good mood, she'll decide to help with some household expenses.  But more often than not, she'll employ her BPD tactics to maintain the status quo, by dredging up all sorts of excuses (This is too stressful! I don't want to talk about this!  Everything is fine the way it is!) and/or accusations (You don't make enough money! I do all the work! You're lying! You're controlling! You're wasting money fixing the house when it's fine! You're mean to me! You're cheap!  You're depriving me and the kids! You want all the money for yourself! You're hiding money from me!).  From what I'm reading, I think the reality is:

*You can't rely on her to contribute towards the household expenses in a meaningful way.
*If she has access to any money, she's going to spend it, because she perceives all her wants to be urgent needs.
*If she thinks you have money, she's going to try to coerce you to spend it on what she "needs," one way or another.
*Even if she agrees to be transparent in principle, it's likely that in practice, she'll renege.
*Even if she agrees to be more prudent in principle, it's likely that in practice, she'll renege.
*She will try to impose rules and obligations on you, but she believes she's exempt (a classic narcissistic tendency--rules for thee but not for me).

If you agree with that assessment, I think you take control of what you can control, which is you and your spending.  Since your wife is making money, and she is spending freely, I think she can start paying for her own things, including her phone, car and entertainment.  I wouldn't discuss your plans in detail, because your wife doesn't play fair when it comes to discussions.  She's telling you, she doesn't want to hear it; she thinks the status quo is fine for her; she doesn't want to change!  You are the one who has to change, right?  I think you should just stop paying for her stuff, and hand her the bills she should be responsible for (her car, her car insurance, etc.).  She can choose for herself whether she pays those bills or not.  It's more than fair, because I bet you pay for your car/insurance/entertainment, right?  She can pay for hers.

Since she appears to be hostile, I'd recommend taking some steps to protect yourself.  Go ahead and open another private bank account--you are entitled to your own account, especially when your wife has her own account(s)!  Financial security trumps the ideal of transparency in your case.  I personally think it's common for spouses to manage their own accounts, while also sharing a joint account for certain joint expenses.  I do not see that as unusual, but rather prudent, expedient and convenient.  Don't tell her about your plans, just do it.  At this point you don't owe it to her to be transparent, because it's harmful to your family.  You know full well that if your wife finds out you have built up some savings, she's going to coerce you to spend in an unhealthy way.  You can keep your plans to yourself, in the name of your own safety and that of your children.

If your wife is destructive with your property, then I'd definitely recommend keeping copies of important records in a safe place.  That could be at a relative's house, a safe deposit box or maybe a workplace if you had a private (locked) office.  For very little money, I purchased an external hard drive and a fire-proof safe.  Every year (the first week in January in fact), I make a point of backing up/copying all my important computer documents onto the external hard drive.  I have a spreadsheet with account information and passwords which I include in that back-up (NOT in the cloud, just in a private file).  In addition, I make a computer scan of the fronts and backs of all the cards in my wallet, just so I know what cards/accounts I currently have, the account numbers and the phone numbers.  I back up certain pictures and videos, too.  All these files get copied, and the hard drive goes into the portable, fireproof safe, which I store in a safe place.  On top of that, I recommend dual authentication on all your financial accounts.  That means that in addition to a username and a password, you'd need your phone to access your account.  If your wife can take your phone without your consent, then maybe you consider dual authentication by some other means, such as a special key which you keep hidden.  This is good practice generally, and especially for accounts where you have a meaningful amount of money flows. 

[ForeverDad]

Most of us here were not prepared for an end to our marriages, we were so focused on struggling to deal with the day to day chaos and discord.

However much we wish that somehow your marriage can be made successful, we would be remiss if we didn't advise you to educate yourself on what to do should should your efforts fail.  Not after it fails but before that cataclysm occurs.

There's an excellent handbook, one of many books on our Book Reviews board.  Privately and confidentially get William Eddy's inexpensive Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  It doesn't replace having a counselor, peer support or even a local experienced and proactive family law attorney, but it does help a non-BPD to avoid common pitfalls and traps that can trip us up in the legal system.

[Notwendy]

This was an extinction burst, trying to get you to retreat back in appeasing/passive mode while also venting her emotional overreactions.

FD is correct and so, in order to not reinforce the behavior- you need to be able to hold to your plan.

I think waiting until the beginning of the year is a good idea- due to Christmas- as you don't want to be dealing with this behavior over the holidays, and also because it's good to take some time to plan.

The behavior continues if it works for her and it does. BPD mother called it "a scene" and we all knew what that was. Sometimes, she'd say "do this or I will cause a scene". Sometimes the scenes were due to her dysregulating but she seemed to be aware that she did them.

She also strategically destroyed or sequestered property on purpose. If she knew we were attached to something- that would be the target. BPD mother had an NPD streak to her and could be deliberately hurtful on purpose.

It came down to accepting that anything she had access to could be potentially destroyed. Anything important to us had to be kept away from her. Living in the same house- it's impossible to do this with everything, but with things that are essential- they need to be secured.

In addition to a bank account in your name, get yourself a safe deposit box. Put important papers like birth certificates, passport, valuables in the box.

Emotionally prepare for the extinction burst, because you will have to hold firm to your plan no matter what her reaction is. Keep a packed bag with a change of clothes, toothbrush, etc as you may need to go to a hotel in the middle of it- and maybe your kids do too.

As FD said- it is possible that the marriage isn't viable, because holding a boundary like this when there's shared property- marital property- and shared living space may not be possible. With my mother- there was no controlling her or getting her to cooperate. Whatever she had access to, she did what she wanted with it. 

An alternative is to keep doing what you are doing and let the consequences happen. I think my father just resigned himself to her doing what she wanted, and compensated for it by restricting his own spending. There wasn't any other way to coexist with her.

[PeteWitsend]

...
In addition to a bank account in your name, get yourself a safe deposit box. Put important papers like birth certificates, passport, valuables in the box.

...

If you need more space than that, you can also rent a storage unit.  I did mine on the DL (paid cash monthly, and used my work address).  But note that they might still send things to your home, because these places are typically owned by some corporate entity & will auto-send marketing crap. I got an ad for insurance coverage of storage units, which BPDxw actually found, but laughed off as "weird junk mail." I was relieved because she was usually extremely suspicious of everything. 

Anyways, a 6' x 6' x 6' unit was all I needed for the most pressing stuff.  A couple times I had caught BPDxw throwing away family heirlooms of mine, photos, etc., so I packed this all up and put it in the storage unit.  And there were other things she said she hated (for example, an old rocking chair I kept in my home office that my parents bought when I was born) and she didn't want in "her" house. 

It turned out she didn't go as nuclear as I expected when I packed my things up and moved out, but she was at work, and we agreed on when I'd do it.  It was still handy to have the storage unit as a place to temporarily hold things while I moved out.   

If it comes to that in your case, make your peace with things you might have to abandon/leave for her, like furniture.  Don't agonize over small stuff.  Focus on the big picture of getting yourself out, your kids cared for - however possession ends up - and move on with your life.

I knew I could replace furniture, and household stuff, but I wanted to keep mementos, family heirlooms, old pictures, etc. for myself and for posterity. 

[PeteWitsend]

...

The behavior continues if it works for her and it does. BPD mother called it "a scene" and we all knew what that was. Sometimes, she'd say "do this or I will cause a scene". Sometimes the scenes were due to her dysregulating but she seemed to be aware that she did them.

She also strategically destroyed or sequestered property on purpose. If she knew we were attached to something- that would be the target. BPD mother had an NPD streak to her and could be deliberately hurtful on purpose.

...

I think this provides a good guide to what you want to protect: keep an eye on removing things/safeguarding things that you ex could use as leverage against you. 

E.g. "Shut up and stop asking me to do X, or I'll throw all these things away/destroy/shred when you're not here."

If there are things you care about, those have to be gone.  You want to be in a position where you can say "Go ahead, I don't care" and let her rage, without having leverage against you.  Let her cut holes in the couch.  Let her smash all the plates in the kitchen.  After all, you were prepared to let her have those!  She's only destroying her own things.  Take pictures and document any destruction. 

A property settlement most likely happens in mediation, and even if those pics wouldn't be admitted in court, it's possible you could show them to a mediator and they can force a more favorable settlement. 

[CC43]

If there are things you care about, those have to be gone.  You want to be in a position where you can say "Go ahead, I don't care" and let her rage, without having leverage against you. 

I almost got to that point, which I called CHANS (Can't Have Anything Nice Syndrome) and/or CHAOS (Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome).  While the pwBPD in my life wasn't intentionally destructive with possessions when she was raging, her prevailing attitude was not to care about anything in a passive-aggressive way.  She said as much:  I don't care.  She'd leave the house with the front door or garage door wide open, with heat escaping and practically inviting robbers inside.  I assume she thought, she needed to get back in, and she couldn't be bothered to take a key.  Either that or she was extremely skatterbrained (possibly brain-addled by marijuana); she'd say that too:  I'm skatterbrained. She'd leave food and food trash everywhere.  She'd get nailpolish and makeup products all over furniture, carpeting, furnishings and bedding, some irreparably stained/bleached out.  Used sanitary napkins would be strewn on the floor.  Bodily fluids all over the toilet, typically unflushed.  Wet towels on wood furniture.  Freezer door left open, melted ice dripping on the floor.  Food/drink spills just left on the floor or carpet.  Ugly stains on new clothes; she seemed to think clothes were disposable and would just ask for money to buy new clothes.  Dangerous moments like microwaving metal and starting a small fire in the microwave.  Some of my nice things permanently "borrowed" and never returned.  Drawers pulled completely out of dressers, chairs overturned, clutter piled high on her bed, rendering her furniture basically useless in any conventional sense.  In short, she couldn't be trusted or unsupervised in my house for extended periods.  I felt I couldn't go on summer vacations, when she'd stay at my house full-time.  It was just too risky.  I stopped buying nice things, for fear that they would be damaged.  It wasn't worth the stress worrying about it.  I know things are just things, but by the same token, it felt really stressful and depressing to live in CHAOS, as if I was forced to live in a dirty college dorm whenever she was around.

It wasn't until she got treatment for BPD and became more stabilized that I could trust her in my house, sort of.  I think she also needed some serious practice living on her own, to experience the direct consequences of ruining her belongings and living quarters with her careless attitude and apparent incompetence.  When her dad and I weren't there to clean things up for her, her place would quickly become a dump.  In a way, the state of her living quarters (and her person) were a reflection of her mental state--a complete mess.

Come to think of it, I think the very first sign of some "remission" of BPD was when she started taking better care of her things, person and living environment.