A more aggressive attorney?

[NewStart]

Hey all,

I have to say that I'm getting worried that my attorney isn't being aggressive enough or maybe I'm wrong?  I learned from my son that my wife told her kids that I'm bi-polar and come home high all the time?  She also put a life size doll with lipstick all crazy on it in my bed and the list of crazy stuff goes on and on?

What kind of effect does aggressive attorney have with BPD/NPD or does this just drive them to get even crazier?

Thanks,

NS

[takingandsending]

Hey NewStart.

How long have you been working with your attorney? Have you asked your current attorney how much experience he/she has working cases with a BPD spouse involved, what sorts of strategies they employ and what sorts of results they have obtained? If you hear vague answers, odds are he/she has no established strategy. If you hear specifics, you may have someone that can help you. You also can interview other lawyers in your area to see how they respond to those questions.

The parental alienation is concerning. The life size doll with lipstick thing is just weird. 

[NewStart]

Well I think mine came through with a good plan when I told him my concerns today.  He said we need to stand strong and take the offensive and just push for court date as then my uBPD/NPDw will have to put all her cards on the table and stop making threats.  He said he's seen it before and she will just drive up the attorney fees going in circles so get her to put up or shut up and get to court sooner than later.  He finished with don't be afraid that she'll be upset and try to take more as she was going to do that either way.

Thoughts on his strategy?

NS

[Mika1739]

Get the book Splitting: a guide to divorcing someone with BPD, hands down the best resource I've found.  If you apply Bill Eddys strategies it will change your whole approach for the better.  He talks about the perfect approach in everything with a BPD being the "assertive" approach.  Aggressive will backfire and passive will too, assertive is spot to be.  He gives tons of examples on what assertive looks and sounds like.  He also has great advice on how to pick a lawyer, good luck!

[formflier]

Hard to tell from the details you have given.

The more you can get nailed down before court... .the better.  However, the general strategy of getting them into court to show their cards is valid... .assuming you guys are prepared. 

If you rush to trial... but you aren't ready... .bad bad bad.  You aren't worried it they are ready.

Good luck... and read that book Splitting. 

FF

[NewStart]

[The more you can get nailed down before court... .the better.  However, the general strategy of getting them into court to show their cards is valid... .assuming you guys are prepared./quote]

My case is all financial and no custody so my attorney said we have to push a trial date as without that they can choose to withhold financials. Where once we file a request for discovery they can't play games and hold pieces back.  He said if we don't push this direction they can withhold info and then use it against us later.

My attorney said at this point this play makes sure we get ALL the financial info so we can have a solid plan moving forward.

Hope that's on point and I will talk to him about BPD specifically tomorrow, but he's already told me in a financial only case in a community property state, it's all law and not a whole lot of subjectivity so having all the financial facts will be critical to form a case.

Anyone out there go through process in community property state?

NS

[formflier]

Yes... .this makes sense to push for trial.  Especially if you can "prove" they are holding back on discovery.

Even if a "motion to compel" is produced... .there will be some time for them to comply.

But... generally speaking... .faster to trial means faster to discovery... .and faster to settlement.

FF

[NewStart]

But... generally speaking... .faster to trial means faster to discovery... .and faster to settlement.

This is my hope exactly and it feels like I've turned a page today and am feeling a bit better about things. 

Yes, she is going to most likely be vindictive and take everything she can, but I can't do anything about that other than be as prepared as possible.  The page I feel like I've turned is that I'm not going to engage her behaviors and I am going to be the nice person I am through this process and maybe, just maybe, as things approach settlement she will back off the gas a least a little and try to at least be somewhat fare.  Like our mediator (who she said was a crackpot) said, "In the best settlements unfortunately nobody really will feel like they came out a winner, but importantly nobody will feel like they got taken... ."

The crazy part is we're only at the financial settlement phase, I can't even begin to imagine what the real property split piece is going to look like?  She's already thrown things like my mountain bikes, skis and surfboards out there... .yeah, just to be punitive she's posturing like she's going to try to have a claim to assets like those... .with her, especially if the house/financial piece doesn't go as she planned, it's going to be a fight down every last random dish and spoon.

I've been thinking about how to broach the subject of BPD with my attorney, he already has heard the stories and thinks she off her rocker, but I haven't mentioned BPD specifically.  I

NS

[formflier]

Does she have a diagnosis? 

If so... .freely share that with your attorney.  With a good attorney client relationship... .the client should be wide open, attorney will be the filter about what gets disclosed to others.

If there is not diagnosis... .let him know it is "like" BPD... .or BPDish symptoms. 

Honestly... .diagnosis doesn't matter.  This is really just to give him a heads up that he has seen tip of the iceberg... and it will get "worse".

Listen... I get it this is emotional for you.  I do.  However... .it's just money and assets.  Is your life worth more than a protracted settlement?

My best buddy... .Naval Aviator as well... .got fed up with his crazy marriage.  His wife was "waifish"... .he was a rescuer... .seems to be common theme... .  Anyway... .

He has been very successful making money... .he figured that once he unburdened his life of the crazy woman... .he would be even more successful.  He was right.  Plus... he is much happier.  Over beers he said to me... .you can't put a price on happiness.  I shot back at him... .but you did in your divorce.  He agreed... and said it was over a 1/4 of a million that he paid out to her.  He could have "taken her to the cleaners"... .but he wanted it to be over.

I do think there was early posturing of taking her to cleaners... .followed by a "quick give up and move on". 

So... .he would say, you get nothing... .big drama because she wanted 8 things.  He would give 3-4 with agreement to move on.  Things went quickly.

Think about it... .once this is past... .what will your earning potential be?

FF

[NewStart]

Does she have a diagnosis?

She does not, but I lived with it and know what happened behind closed doors.  The crazy love bombing, the interview like process that I want through, the elevating me to a level that I had never been to (yeah, I was like "whaaaat?" but my bad I chose to ignore the red flags) then came the rages, being spit on, hit, accused of everything under the sun and then have it turned back on me.  The silent treatment, the isolation from friends and family, the financial control and then the brutal slow process of complete and total devaluation and now her desire to for all intensive purposes, destroy me.

I think I will go with the "un-diagnosed, but BPD like symptoms so please be aware of where this could go" tactic.

However... .it's just money and assets.  Is your life worth more than a protracted settlement?

It's NOT worth a protracted settlement, like my attorney said to me yesterday when we came up with our strategy, he said "you need to be done with this ASAP so you can move forward, the longer you're stuck around this woman the more it will cost you financially, mentally or worse".  He also told me to protect myself, make sure I'm not around her alone etc. as he believes she is unpredictable.

Think about it... .once this is past... .what will your earning potential be?

Well, that's what kind of sucks, I work for the government and have great benefits, but I don't make a ton of money and the home I've owned for 14 years had a basement apartment which helped me out tremendously with finances as it was about 1/6th of my overall income.  However, when she and her children moved in I tore it all out and converted the space so that program is gone... .it will be way more of a struggle financially, but I have to know that at least she will be out of my life and mental and physical stability will follow.

NS

NA

[ForeverDad]

Courts and lawyers usually are able to make settlements.  They prefer them too.  I've been in domestic court for 3 major actions.  Two did settle.  One was when her lawyer told her she'd lose and so she settled (minutes before the trial.  The other was when I was seeking custody and majority time.  We had a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) who wanted middle of the road outcome, my lawyer said the court would likely side with the GAL, so we settled for the GAL's terms.

What I'm saying is that settlements do happen, even in our high conflict cases.  But they're usually not early in a case, the ex is typically too entitled.  They happen closer to a major hearing or trial when the ex is under a bit of pressure.  (That's why we generally encourage members not to delay a hearing or suspend the case since  it may get action that delays would put off.)

The SPLITTING handbook encourages us to use attorneys who have practical strategies, are familiar with trials and more than ready to go to trial.  Experience counts.  Lawyers who are hand holders and forms filers are for the 85% of cases that don't have an obstructive, high conflict spouse involved.

[NewStart]

What I'm saying is that settlements do happen, even in our high conflict cases.  But they're usually not early in a case, the ex is typically too entitled.

This is what I'm really hoping for.  Right now my BPD/NPDw seems so empowered, so angry and so incredibly vindictive that the waiting game is hard.  My attorney keeps assuring me that her attorney is talking a much more conciliatory tone, but at home I'm under an almost constant passive aggressive barrage of comments and actions it's exhausting.

She keeps telling her attorney that I'm making things difficult in the home while all I am doing is trying to live in our house, then I get the email from her attorney to mine stating such.  Last night I was whistling while I was cooking and she told me to stop or she'd tell her attorney I was whistling just to annoy her?

The crazy part is, her behaviors really are meant to provoke?  For example, I'm talking with her three children this weekend and she comes in, sits down and just interjects, "Hey, those were pretty nice skis you were loading up, did you buy those while we were married or after the separation?  Because if it was while we were married 1/2 those are mine... .kind of like half your mountain bike is now mind!"... .then she just starts laughing... .

At this point I'm just doing my best to be nice every day, let the threats roll off without engaging them and am hoping for this to conclude sooner than later.

NS   

   

[formflier]

 
Are you living in the house with her full time? 

I would suggest that your send something to your attorney... have him reword it and send to her attorney.

"Both parties agree to only discuss relationship status with their attorneys.  Parties agree to NOT discuss in the presence of children and in the marital home"

Likely good for both lawyers to somehow put a statement in there that they are lawyers and not relationship counselors and that perhaps a relationship counselor is needed to cool things while the lawyers focus on their professional responsibilities.

Note:  This likely won't help, but I think clearly communicating boundaries, roles and responsibilities is appropriate.

Hang in there man... .this is tough stuff.

FF

[NewStart]

Are you living in the house with her full time?

Unfortunately yes... .

I would suggest that your send something to your attorney... have him reword it and send to her attorney.

It's funny, I want to do that yet part of me is worried about the blow back I'll get from her when she get's upset that her attorney brought this to her attention, does that make sense?

[formflier]

Make sure you have a recorder app running on your phone when you are around her.

Much more important when she threatens you, that you disengage/ignore the threat to "tattle" on the attorney.

FF

[NewStart]

Much more important when she threatens you, that you disengage/ignore the threat to "tattle" on the attorney.

This has been my tactic.  Part of me thinks that somewhere under there is a human, someone who in the end will relent if even just a bit and settle this all with some modicum of fairness.

"Tattle" to her attorney, exactly.  Last night I was cooking dinner for myself and whistling, not loud, just in a good mood whistling and she storms in and tells me, "stop whistling or I'm contacting my attorney and telling him you're purposely doing it to annoy me!"... .yeah, that really happened?

NS

[formflier]

Since you guys are on the way to a divorce... .I would lean towards continuing to whistle.   

Recorder app... .very important... .please let me know you are doing this. 

FF

[NewStart]

Recorder app... .very important... .please let me know you are doing this.

Just added it to my phone!

Since you guys are on the way to a divorce... .I would lean towards continuing to whistle.

Hahaha, funny and totally get it, but not my style.  I've caught myself so many times wanting to do some passive aggressive move back to her yet in the moment I tell myself, "you're better than that... .when this is all over you'll still have your integrity... ."

NS

[formflier]

 
Umm... .I will admit that I don't totally understand passive aggressive, but I don't think continuing to whistle is PA.  Perhaps aggressive... .but not PA.

You could say... ."I'll listen to respectful requests... .otherwise I will continue to enjoy my whistle... ."

You have handed her the ball back... .(so to speak)... .provided a pathway to healthy resolution... .and "defended" your separateness from her.

Or... .you could use "snark".

"Oh my goodness... .I'm sorry... .I was time travelling in my mind and thinking of a time when I'm done with you... .I couldn't stop the happy tune from coming out... "

 

Yeah... .snark is better... .

FF

[ForeverDad]

She is taunting you, trying to goad you into a poor overreaction that would give her belief she could use that to promptly boot you out of the home (and gain possession) with a TRO or TPO.  Failing that, she's trying to make your life miserable, after all, it worked before and of course she'll keep trying tactics that worked before.

Don't do anything aggressive toward her, not even words.  Beware of even pushing her out of the way to exit the room or wherever.  That 'push' can transform into a planned scream and subsequent claim you shoved her against the wall, tossed her down the stairs, through the door and drove over her in the street.

[livednlearned]

I'm so sorry you have to live together while this all resolves. That's really hard, and takes a big toll.

How long does your lawyer anticipate this might take?

I'm talking with her three children this weekend and she comes in, sits down and just interjects, "Hey, those were pretty nice skis you were loading up, did you buy those while we were married or after the separation?  Because if it was while we were married 1/2 those are mine... .kind of like half your mountain bike is now mind!"... .then she just starts laughing... .

This is emotionally immature behavior. It's something you might expect from a child who both feels and has no real power, not an adult woman.

At this point I'm just doing my best to be nice every day, let the threats roll off without engaging them and am hoping for this to conclude sooner than later.

If you are walking around the house seeming calm and unfazed, she may feel angry at you simply because you are not dysregulated like she feels -- there may be a motive on her part to trip your trigger so that you will behave in similar ways, which would validate her own bad behavior.

I would resist engaging her at that level. She isn't going to stop her taunting, most likely. But you can prevent things from getting worse by not lowering yourself to her level, especially if she gets momentum from bad behavior if she sees she got a reaction out of you. It sounds like you are already doing this.  

Hopefully, things conclude relatively soon, though I would prepare for things to get drawn out. Even if court concludes swiftly, she will likely stonewall and obstruct on any item that requires her compliance, unless you have leverage that can be used, or contingencies that you wrote into the order.

[formflier]

Yeah... .snark is better... .
 

Hey... .to be clear... .this was a badly timed and conceived joke. 

Be sure NOT to hand her any ammo.  You already know she is good at "creating" ammo out of nothing, but that gets fairly obvious... .fairly quickly.  It appears both lawyers "get it".


Livednlearned made a great point about compliance.  Make sure orders are specific.  "Reasonable delay" is bad... .horrid.  30 minute delay with accompanying text message notifying you of the delay is much better. 

Best... .write in a consequence into the order.  That way, when you go back to court, all you need to "prove" is that the tightly defined parameters have been "busted".

Real life example.  My brother in law had it written in the order that when he pulled up to sister in laws house to pick up kids he would text, beep horn and kids would be out within 5 or 10 minutes (I don't remember exactly).  This was in addition to the order stating that kids were to be picked up and such and such time.

So... .order says kids are picked up at 3pm.  He pulls in at 3pm, texts and beeps and it would be "legal" for kids to walk out of door at 3:10. 

However, they were taking 20 minutes or longer.  SIL was the one causing it... .just to "show she can". 

The mistake BIL made was not writing a consequence in the order.

Expect this level of obstruction at every turn.

FF

[NewStart]

Hopefully, things conclude relatively soon, though I would prepare for things to get drawn out. Even if court concludes swiftly, she will likely stonewall and obstruct on any item that requires her compliance

The money and house will be the first part and the I'm hoping that the court process will help with the timeline on that... .but, personal property split... .well my fear is this will be a gong show as this woman is going to fight tooth and nail down to the last TV set, book, plate, surf board, bike, toothpick or whatever... .I can see that coming and unfortunately I think I'm just going to have to walk away from a lot just to get it over with... .

NS

[NewStart]

Expect this level of obstruction at every turn.

This is that part that is SO exhausting... .it just sucks the life out of you and makes me want to just give it all to her and walk away just to get some peace back in my life... .

NS

[formflier]

give it all to her and walk away just to get some peace back in my life... .
 

Listen... .big reality check.  

You can buy peace in your life... .

You can buy happiness...

It may not be at the price you want to pay... .or are even willing to pay... .but realize that this is possible.  

If you can get to a point of a "business decision"... .or look at it as if you are purchasing a car... .rather than an emotional "war"... "battle"... .whatever with an ex (stbx)... .I think you will conclude this much sooner, and get back to happiness.

I have told this story recently... but don't remember what thread... .I had a buddy that "bought" happiness to the tune of $250K that he didn't have to spend or likely could have "won", if he had the chance.

Granted... he was smart about it and minimized... .perhaps even eliminated cash payments to his ex over time.  I think what he got her to agree with was giving her a "free and clear" house and pay taxes and insurance for some period of time.  Plus bought her a minivan... .again delivered it free and clear.  I think he put in the agreement that she could not mortgage the house for a certain number of years.

Basically he wanted to be done.  He knew he would not get full custody.  He wanted some sort of stability when his kids were with mom.  He also knew it would p$ss him off to no end if he had to stroke her alimony checks... .month after month.

Now... .10 years later, his kids are teenagers, the ex is still in same house, so same basic routine of swapping kids for 10 years.  I'm not sure if same van is there or not.

Perhaps there is a creative thing you can offer that she would jump at.

FF

[livednlearned]

The money and house will be the first part and the I'm hoping that the court process will help with the timeline on that... .but, personal property split... .well my fear is this will be a gong show as this woman is going to fight tooth and nail down to the last TV set, book, plate, surf board, bike, toothpick or whatever... .I can see that coming and unfortunately I think I'm just going to have to walk away from a lot just to get it over with... .

Where are you in the court process? Do you have to go through mediation first? Will your case be heard before a judge?

Knowing this can help us help you figure out how to stage the negotiation process.

There are places where you can artificially inflate (or deflate) the values of your items knowing that she is going to haggle and obstruct and be BPD about things.

There is a little chess to all this. You have the ability to see 4 and 5 moves ahead -- her BPD is more likely to keep her focused on the immediate move.

That gives you a strategic advantage and it can help make the process less stressful -- she will still do her thing but you will be prepared for it and while it will still be exasperating, at least you have a few moves in store that were planned in advance to offset her unreasonable demands.

What's the next thing to happen in your case? What has already taken place?

[NewStart]

Where are you in the court process? Do you have to go through mediation first? Will your case be heard before a judge?

Her side was stalling and making threats so my attorney said forget that, let's just put in for a court date and start the discovery process or this is going to go around in circles and they can choose to withhold whatever they want.

Yep, went through one mediation, she made an offer, I was going to possibly accept and she cancelled the second mediation and said all deals off the table.

Well, with her it could go all the way to trial, but I'm hoping we can come to some agreement, pick up our tinker-toys and go our separate ways... .but, yeah we'll see how that goes.

Perhaps there is a creative thing you can offer that she would jump at.

She wants my house and at first I was thinking #$! no I've owed this since 2004, my boys grew up here... .and now, I'm hoping that this could be the leverage point and it the dollar amount she offers me to buy me out is reasonable, I'd walk away and start fresh somewhere just to get her out of my life... .so maybe that's the creative thing, maybe... .

NS

[formflier]

I'm assuming you have a mortgage... .correct?

Make sure that before YOU leave the house and give up possession that SHE has either taken over responsibility for the loan... .or bought you out.

Bottom line... that your credit is no longer tied to the house.

That you name is no longer on house or tax bill (insurance, utilities... .all that) BEFORE you leave.

What happens if she promises to switch electric... but then doesn't.  If you call and cut it off... .in some states... .you could get in trouble, especially if she alleges you are her "landlord" and she is tenant.

I DO like the idea of you having a fresh start... .new surroundings and all that.

Focus on the "strategic advantage" livednlearned mentioned.  That is where to put your effort.  It sounds like you are pretty much doing this... .given your attorney's push for trial to "force" discovery... .and quit "messing around".

FF

[livednlearned]

Her side was stalling and making threats so my attorney said forget that, let's just put in for a court date and start the discovery process or this is going to go around in circles and they can choose to withhold whatever they want.

Your attorney is acting like a rational actor! That's great  

So, knowing that you might be willing to let go of the house -- that's leverage. You can use that to your advantage. Don't share this leverage with her, just use it when it's time.

Right now, she is excited about the letter of the law, and honestly, in family law court, that doesn't really exist. She is probably giddy about the prospect of the judge delivering justice, punishing you for all the bad things you did, with her blocking you every step of the way. This is nonsense. Best to ignore it.

Find out what you can about what the judge is like, and maybe even go sit in on a few cases if you're feeling anxious about what it will be like. Ask your L how he has handled cases like this before.

Ask people here how their spouses stonewalled the financial stuff and what they did that helped them move things forward. Not all of it will apply but you will get some good pointers and that on its own will help you get into a solutions-based mindset, which is psychologically better for your well-being.  

What kind of threats were being made? What will the discovery process entail? What are you most concerned about?

[NewStart]

Right now, she is excited about the letter of the law, and honestly, in family law court, that doesn't really exist. She is probably giddy about the prospect of the judge delivering justice, punishing you for all the bad things you did, with her blocking you every step of the way. This is nonsense. Best to ignore it.

I think she is very excited about the letter of the law, to the point everything is starting to add up as almost a premeditated scam. 

It will all have to come out in the discovery documents, but the claim right now is that she paid all of her premarital debt with our community funds while paying mine with money she kept sole and separate from before we were married.  If that is the case it's almost worst case scenario as she could be free and clear of all her debt yet claim I owe her back for any of my premarital debt that she paid off and for any money she might have spent on our home.

Next, she move all her money into FBO accounts which may render any of that money off limits in our case.

Obviously the waiting game on these answers have me not getting a whole lot of sleep... .if it all came together in a worst case scenario, she could get my home of 14 years free and clear and I could be saddled with debt and no equity... .

Now will that happen, lots would have to fall into place and I haven't been fully briefed on the law or what we have back from discovery at this time.  My attorney has been preparing for another trial this week so I most likely won't have answers until maybe next week.

Yup, that adds up to a little bit of stress... .and to think that someone would do that to another person... .after all I've done for her and her children... .and that all that could happen within only 2 1/2 years... .crazy... .

I have to stop "reading the tea leaves" and researching things on my own and wait for the real information from my attorney as all I'm doing is working myself up.

NS