Update and looking for insights

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have been living separately from my BPD husband for close to three years now due to me not being able to handle his instability.

The goal was to slowly move back together and reintegrate as a family (we have two young children), while he worked on self-regulation. He has been attending individual therapy for at least two years, and has completed two rounds of group DBT therapy. Some of his problem behaviours that made me feel unsafe are random bouts of screaming, slamming doors, dissociating (his eyes become glazed over and it looks like he is "not there"). He can get a job, but inevitably quits the job when triggered and also goes on out of control spending sprees. He is unreliable - when calm, he is sweet, caring, take-charge, and is responsible, but when triggered, he does not fulfill any responsibilities or commitments. He ruins most holidays, vacations family outings etc. by having some sort of tantrum. He has a major problem with emailing and texting in a completely out of control manner, and sometimes sends these rants to my parents and siblings, which is highly embarrassing.

Despite him consistently going for therapy, and demonstrating more insight into himself and his past, he has never taken real ownership of his issues. Sometimes I wonder what he is actually talking about in therapy. He will say sorry after "losing it" and "I have a lot of work to do," but at the same time he does not show true accountability. He has told me many times that he knows he has a problem and that he is aggressive and that he has mental health problems, but he very often says "it's not my fault" or gives the impression that he is a victim of circumstances. Or he will say that it is mostly his fault, but only if it's also a little bit my fault . It's almost like his life goal is that things should not be his fault. I have never even used this language of "fault" at all - I would have liked if we could see it as a couples' project of helping him improve his mental health and therefore our relationship, but somehow he always brings it back to this language of whose fault it is.

Even after three years of trying to get our family back together, he always ends up behaving in a way that prevents us from moving forward - hard to tell if this is subconscious sabotage or not. As of late, he had been able to go longer before losing it, but inevitably the crash came again. Also, although he will say he understands that I moved out because I did not feel safe, at the same time he constantly accuses me of stealing the kids and of living separately from him. Which obviously makes no logical sense. It's very confusing - he seems to want to work on himself so we can live together, and at the same time, he never holds it together so we can move forward.

Over time, I have created more and more boundaries in order to be able to feel emotionally stable myself and be a healthy mother for my children. Some of my boundaries are - I will not communicate with him via texting or email at all ever, given his angry rants in these domains. If he screams over the phone, I hang up, or if in person, I leave. I also never depend on him for anything - if calm, I am happy for him to help out, but otherwise I am happy to do everything myself. I never leave him alone with the kids, as I am concerned about what would happen if he was triggered and started dissociating. Until this past fall, he was participating in our lives when calm and when dysregulated I just basically shut him out in the ways I described above. I have tried validating techniques, but somehow, they don't work for him or calm him down. It's almost like he needs the release in order to go on with life. So at this point, I've given up on that.

In the fall, there was a big shift. He had the longest streak of self-regulation that he had ever had, about 6 weeks, and I could see that he was really trying. Not to say he wasn't having challenges even within this period, but it was the best he ever was, and I felt hopeful. After this, he became triggered by something and crashed very badly, and basically said I have to move back home with him and refused to engage further. I was so disappointed when he lost it after the 6 weeks, and also I could foresee that his silence would likely last a while (he can go into silent/avoidant mode when very stressed). So I decided for the first time to just leave him be and not try to help him recover or rescue him. I figured it is his chance to take accountability if he is capable of doing so, without me pushing it on him. After a couple weeks of silence, he started sending physical letters, and has been doing this for months. I won't go into the specifics of what is in them, but they are mostly what I call fantasy based. He talks about how he is renovating our place so it will be nice for the kids (he seems to have "forgotten" they don't live there), tells the kids he misses them as though he is in a far away land etc. He has not once taken accountably or said he is sorry or addressed any serious issue. He talks about random businesses he is starting (fantasy) etc.

When he initially went silent, I decided that I was not going to respond to anything that was "nonsense" or fantasy. Since there was nothing real to respond to, there has been no back and forth communication for around 4 months now, during which time he has not seen the kids or asked to see them. Recently, I got a letter from him saying that he wanted to visit with them. This was the first real communication I have gotten from him that is not in the nonsense or fantasy category. I'm worried about reopening the cycle again, as he has not taken accountability or shown any insight into anything since he went silent months ago. It has been kind of shocking to me honestly how long his fantasy letters have lasted, without my intervention. I guess I was subconsciously doing an experiment to see how he behaves when left alone, and it is not pretty.

I'm not sure what exactly I am asking from this forum, and maybe this is just me having the opportunity to express what I've been through. I have so many conflicting emotions - while I am frustrated and upset at him, I also feel really bad for him that he is this "damaged", for lack of a better word. And I can see it more clearly now that I have left him alone and been totally disengaged in his cycles while observing from a safe distance. I did respond to his request about visiting with the kids (the first letter I replied to given that it was the first "normal" thing he said) and told him I will think about what makes sense and is in their best interests. This was done in a voicemail, as he did not answer the phone, and I am guessing he is too scared to do so. Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be in their best interests? I would love for them to have a healthy relationship with their father - that was my intention the whole time in separating from my husband - but I am scared of letting him back in to our lives given that I don't see any real change in him over the past months. I guess I was really wishing and hoping that if I left him alone, maybe he would show more capacity than he has done until now. And yes, I know that this almost certainly triggered his sense of abandonment, but somehow you can never win with BPD - engagement in the cycle doesn't work and disengagement doesn't work either.

[Horselover]

I have been living separately from my BPD husband for close to three years now due to me not being able to handle his instability.

The goal was to slowly move back together and reintegrate as a family (we have two young children), while he worked on self-regulation. He has been attending individual therapy for at least two years, and has completed two rounds of group DBT therapy. Some of his problem behaviours that made me feel unsafe are random bouts of screaming, slamming doors, dissociating (his eyes become glazed over and it looks like he is "not there"). He can get a job, but inevitably quits the job when triggered and also goes on out of control spending sprees. He is unreliable - when calm, he is sweet, caring, take-charge, and is responsible, but when triggered, he does not fulfill any responsibilities or commitments. He ruins most holidays, vacations family outings etc. by having some sort of tantrum. He has a major problem with emailing and texting in a completely out of control manner, and sometimes sends these rants to my parents and siblings, which is highly embarrassing.

Despite him consistently going for therapy, and demonstrating more insight into himself and his past, he has never taken real ownership of his issues. Sometimes I wonder what he is actually talking about in therapy. He will say sorry after "losing it" and "I have a lot of work to do," but at the same time he does not show true accountability. He has told me many times that he knows he has a problem and that he is aggressive and that he has mental health problems, but he very often says "it's not my fault" or gives the impression that he is a victim of circumstances. Or he will say that it is mostly his fault, but only if it's also a little bit my fault . It's almost like his life goal is that things should not be his fault. I have never even used this language of "fault" at all - I would have liked if we could see it as a couples' project of helping him improve his mental health and therefore our relationship, but somehow he always brings it back to this language of whose fault it is.

Even after three years of trying to get our family back together, he always ends up behaving in a way that prevents us from moving forward - hard to tell if this is subconscious sabotage or not. As of late, he had been able to go longer before losing it, but inevitably the crash came again. Also, although he will say he understands that I moved out because I did not feel safe, at the same time he constantly accuses me of stealing the kids and of living separately from him. Which obviously makes no logical sense. It's very confusing - he seems to want to work on himself so we can live together, and at the same time, he never holds it together so we can move forward.

Over time, I have created more and more boundaries in order to be able to feel emotionally stable myself and be a healthy mother for my children. Some of my boundaries are - I will not communicate with him via texting or email at all ever, given his angry rants in these domains. If he screams over the phone, I hang up, or if in person, I leave. I also never depend on him for anything - if calm, I am happy for him to help out, but otherwise I am happy to do everything myself. I never leave him alone with the kids, as I am concerned about what would happen if he was triggered and started dissociating. Until this past fall, he was participating in our lives when calm and when dysregulated I just basically shut him out in the ways I described above. I have tried validating techniques, but somehow, they don't work for him or calm him down. It's almost like he needs the release in order to go on with life. So at this point, I've given up on that.

In the fall, there was a big shift. He had the longest streak of self-regulation that he had ever had, about 6 weeks, and I could see that he was really trying. Not to say he wasn't having challenges even within this period, but it was the best he ever was, and I felt hopeful. After this, he became triggered by something and crashed very badly, and basically said I have to move back home with him and refused to engage further. I was so disappointed when he lost it after the 6 weeks, and also I could foresee that his silence would likely last a while (he can go into silent/avoidant mode when very stressed). So I decided for the first time to just leave him be and not try to help him recover or rescue him. I figured it is his chance to take accountability if he is capable of doing so, without me pushing it on him. After a couple weeks of silence, he started sending physical letters, and has been doing this for months. I won't go into the specifics of what is in them, but they are mostly what I call fantasy based. He talks about how he is renovating our place so it will be nice for the kids (he seems to have "forgotten" they don't live there), tells the kids he misses them as though he is in a far away land etc. He has not once taken accountably or said he is sorry or addressed any serious issue. He talks about random businesses he is starting (fantasy) etc.

When he initially went silent, I decided that I was not going to respond to anything that was "nonsense" or fantasy. Since there was nothing real to respond to, there has been no back and forth communication for around 4 months now, during which time he has not seen the kids or asked to see them. Recently, I got a letter from him saying that he wanted to visit with them. This was the first real communication I have gotten from him that is not in the nonsense or fantasy category. I'm worried about reopening the cycle again, as he has not taken accountability or shown any insight into anything since he went silent months ago. It has been kind of shocking to me honestly how long his fantasy letters have lasted, without my intervention. I guess I was subconsciously doing an experiment to see how he behaves when left alone, and it is not pretty.

I'm not sure what exactly I am asking from this forum, and maybe this is just me having the opportunity to express what I've been through. I have so many conflicting emotions - while I am frustrated and upset at him, I also feel really bad for him that he is this "damaged", for lack of a better word. And I can see it more clearly now that I have left him alone and been totally disengaged in his cycles while observing from a safe distance. I did respond to his request about visiting with the kids (the first letter I replied to given that it was the first "normal" thing he said) and told him I will think about what makes sense and is in their best interests. This was done in a voicemail, as he did not answer the phone, and I am guessing he is too scared to do so. Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be in their best interests? I would love for them to have a healthy relationship with their father - that was my intention the whole time in separating from my husband - but I am scared of letting him back in to our lives given that I don't see any real change in him over the past months. I guess I was really wishing and hoping that if I left him alone, maybe he would show more capacity than he has done until now. And yes, I know that this almost certainly triggered his sense of abandonment, but somehow you can never win with BPD - engagement in the cycle doesn't work and disengagement doesn't work either.

[Pook075]

I'm so sorry that you've been on this journey for so long and sort of stuck in limbo waiting for something to change.  I experienced that with my daughter and ex wife (both BPD) and parts of your story reminded me of each of them in different ways.  For my kid, she's always been so quick to explode when she's unstable.  DBT therapy has helped her tremendously and it's changed how she communicates a lot, but she still becomes unstable and toxic at times. 

For me, I think the key is less about her always being stable and more how I can help her work through her emotional rollercoaster as quickly as possible.

Part of the problem is the intense shame my daughter and ex feel at times; they both obsess over it and try to over-analyze everything.  But because they're doing it emotionally, their feelings are all over the place and their thinking is disordered.  They know things are their fault but because their mind is working in overdrive to find a solution, what they thought five minutes ago is no longer "fact" as they try to make sense of something that actually doesn't make any sense at all. 

Blaming me means that it's not their fault, and in some ways helps them self-regulate.  But once they tell that lie to themselves so many times, it reaps havoc on the relationship.  The real problem, of course, is mental illness.

You asked only one direct question- should dad see the kids?  I think he absolutely should...for him and for the kids.  Yet if you said, "Okay, let's meet at the McDonalds by your house with the big playground on Tuesday at 7 PM," his mind is going to obsess until that time and you're probably not going to get the best version of him.  Why?  Because he will be so scared of messing it all up, that he will inevitably mess it all up within his mind before even getting to McDonalds.  Or maybe he won't show at all due to shame and dysregulation.

The method I've adopted in communicating with my ex and my kid is apologizing for their hurt feelings and reinforcing that by telling them that I've never meant to intentionally hurt them.  You want your husband to be accountable for his mis-steps, which is what we all want, but that's literally the hardest thing in the world for him to do because of the way he processes information.  It makes sense to him at face value but after thinking about it for an hour, a week, etc, all the thoughts get jumbled and blame comes into the equation.

My advice is to get past the blame part entirely- he's flawed and you are too (he's infinitely more flawed...but we're not blaming so pretend I didn't say that).  Instead, focus on being in the moment between two flawed people who want to have the best intentions for one another.  At the first sign of spiraling, instead of leaving (or hanging up, etc) try to lean in and say it's okay.  Calm him down and reassure him that it's okay, misunderstandings happen.  And reinforce that you'd never mean to hurt his feelings.

If things still go sideways, then do what you're already doing.  I do exactly the same thing.  But I always make the effort to "save" the moment by de-escalating and letting her mind "reset" before going nuclear.  By doing this, the blowouts are far less frequent and I only see their worst maybe once per year.  Most of the time, we skip the blowouts entirely by focusing on each other and letting the moment pass.

For all the other things you mentioned, him not being able to keep a job, him lashing out to family, etc...all of that is a byproduct of not doing that one thing I just mentioned correctly.  The worst place he can be is alone in his thoughts while feeling abandoned or just a failure in general.  That's because what he's really looking for is acceptance.  You feel like you can't fully accept him until he's better....but he'll never get better until you accept him.  So there has to be a middle ground for the relationship to have a chance.  Does that make sense?

[ForeverDad]

However you decide to handle the separation or possible divorce, and whether he is self-sabotaging, worrying, triggering himself or whatever, I would suggest you make any visitation as reduced-stressful as possible.  As previously commented, maybe a schedule might not always work since his mental state doesn't run on a schedule.  Perhaps having planned visits leaves too much time for expecting that next date to find him in a good place mentally.  Playing it by ear, watching for one of his good (or less bad) days and having brief visits might be a strategy that works for him.  Courts generally don't favor such flexible (vague) visitation arrangements but he might be willing to join you in settling on such terms.

On a pragmatic note, he's been in therapy for a few years and there might not be much improvement for even more years.  Sort of, reality.  You might not want to lock him into overnights or entire weekends since that might be more than he can handle.

And of course the children shouldn't be stuck in the middle on his bad days.

[sm1981]

I don't have any advice but a lot resonates with me, it's sad seeing similar patterns play out for someone else.  Accountability is what I've been looking for but it seems an impossible task for my pwBPD.  He's started therapy recently and he did say interesting thing that came out of it was he felt blamed a lot as a child.  Subsequently he now can't seem to take blame well or (as you said) will take the majority of the blame as long as I'm held responsible for some too, and that says "everything wrong in the relationship must be his fault" - with the tone being -he's the poor blamed victim.

I've probably not been any help but I hear you and it's hard

[CC43]

Hi there,

I commend you for imposing healthy boundaries for you and the kids.  It does seem like your man has made some progress, in that he seemed to have stabilized for a good stretch.  Yet with BPD, the negative, victim mindset is deeply ingrained.  I think that's the worst part of BPD, because it renders him seemingly powerless over his own life.  He spends a ton of mental bandwidth blaming others, concocting narratives--often delusional ones--where he's the victim and others are to blame for all his problems.  The huge problems with cultivating this narrative are getting stuck in the distant past, the damage it does to his key relationships, and his lack of accountability over his own life.  It seems he missed the key memo of adulthood:  he's responsible for himself now.  It's like he's still waiting for others to make his life better, and he's constantly disappointed by that.  Does that sound about right?

Now it's possible that continued therapy will help him stabilize for successively longer and longer periods.  I've seen this happen with the pwBPD in my life.  Alas, slip-ups happen too.  I guess some questions are:  When he dysregulates, have the intensity and duration of the outbursts reduced?  Does he get back "on track" more quickly, and resume his forward momentum while continuing therapy?  Or is he getting completely derailed?  Is he taking baby steps towards accepting responsibility for his life, letting go of the victim mindset in some aspects of his life?  Look, I wouldn't expect an apology from him--guilt and shame are huge triggers--but I think I would expect the blaming tirades to lessen in frequency, intensity and duration.  That would be progress in my opinion.  Other indicators of progress would be resumption of some friendships with buddies, say from his job or gym.  Then I'd say, renewed attempts at employment would show some progress.  Sure, he might quit or get fired, but once again, does he get back "on track" quickly, with another job?  Could he keep that one for a few months?  Baby steps.