Update and looking for insights

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have been living separately from my BPD husband for close to three years now due to me not being able to handle his instability.

The goal was to slowly move back together and reintegrate as a family (we have two young children), while he worked on self-regulation. He has been attending individual therapy for at least two years, and has completed two rounds of group DBT therapy. Some of his problem behaviours that made me feel unsafe are random bouts of screaming, slamming doors, dissociating (his eyes become glazed over and it looks like he is "not there"). He can get a job, but inevitably quits the job when triggered and also goes on out of control spending sprees. He is unreliable - when calm, he is sweet, caring, take-charge, and is responsible, but when triggered, he does not fulfill any responsibilities or commitments. He ruins most holidays, vacations family outings etc. by having some sort of tantrum. He has a major problem with emailing and texting in a completely out of control manner, and sometimes sends these rants to my parents and siblings, which is highly embarrassing.

Despite him consistently going for therapy, and demonstrating more insight into himself and his past, he has never taken real ownership of his issues. Sometimes I wonder what he is actually talking about in therapy. He will say sorry after "losing it" and "I have a lot of work to do," but at the same time he does not show true accountability. He has told me many times that he knows he has a problem and that he is aggressive and that he has mental health problems, but he very often says "it's not my fault" or gives the impression that he is a victim of circumstances. Or he will say that it is mostly his fault, but only if it's also a little bit my fault . It's almost like his life goal is that things should not be his fault. I have never even used this language of "fault" at all - I would have liked if we could see it as a couples' project of helping him improve his mental health and therefore our relationship, but somehow he always brings it back to this language of whose fault it is.

Even after three years of trying to get our family back together, he always ends up behaving in a way that prevents us from moving forward - hard to tell if this is subconscious sabotage or not. As of late, he had been able to go longer before losing it, but inevitably the crash came again. Also, although he will say he understands that I moved out because I did not feel safe, at the same time he constantly accuses me of stealing the kids and of living separately from him. Which obviously makes no logical sense. It's very confusing - he seems to want to work on himself so we can live together, and at the same time, he never holds it together so we can move forward.

Over time, I have created more and more boundaries in order to be able to feel emotionally stable myself and be a healthy mother for my children. Some of my boundaries are - I will not communicate with him via texting or email at all ever, given his angry rants in these domains. If he screams over the phone, I hang up, or if in person, I leave. I also never depend on him for anything - if calm, I am happy for him to help out, but otherwise I am happy to do everything myself. I never leave him alone with the kids, as I am concerned about what would happen if he was triggered and started dissociating. Until this past fall, he was participating in our lives when calm and when dysregulated I just basically shut him out in the ways I described above. I have tried validating techniques, but somehow, they don't work for him or calm him down. It's almost like he needs the release in order to go on with life. So at this point, I've given up on that.

In the fall, there was a big shift. He had the longest streak of self-regulation that he had ever had, about 6 weeks, and I could see that he was really trying. Not to say he wasn't having challenges even within this period, but it was the best he ever was, and I felt hopeful. After this, he became triggered by something and crashed very badly, and basically said I have to move back home with him and refused to engage further. I was so disappointed when he lost it after the 6 weeks, and also I could foresee that his silence would likely last a while (he can go into silent/avoidant mode when very stressed). So I decided for the first time to just leave him be and not try to help him recover or rescue him. I figured it is his chance to take accountability if he is capable of doing so, without me pushing it on him. After a couple weeks of silence, he started sending physical letters, and has been doing this for months. I won't go into the specifics of what is in them, but they are mostly what I call fantasy based. He talks about how he is renovating our place so it will be nice for the kids (he seems to have "forgotten" they don't live there), tells the kids he misses them as though he is in a far away land etc. He has not once taken accountably or said he is sorry or addressed any serious issue. He talks about random businesses he is starting (fantasy) etc.

When he initially went silent, I decided that I was not going to respond to anything that was "nonsense" or fantasy. Since there was nothing real to respond to, there has been no back and forth communication for around 4 months now, during which time he has not seen the kids or asked to see them. Recently, I got a letter from him saying that he wanted to visit with them. This was the first real communication I have gotten from him that is not in the nonsense or fantasy category. I'm worried about reopening the cycle again, as he has not taken accountability or shown any insight into anything since he went silent months ago. It has been kind of shocking to me honestly how long his fantasy letters have lasted, without my intervention. I guess I was subconsciously doing an experiment to see how he behaves when left alone, and it is not pretty.

I'm not sure what exactly I am asking from this forum, and maybe this is just me having the opportunity to express what I've been through. I have so many conflicting emotions - while I am frustrated and upset at him, I also feel really bad for him that he is this "damaged", for lack of a better word. And I can see it more clearly now that I have left him alone and been totally disengaged in his cycles while observing from a safe distance. I did respond to his request about visiting with the kids (the first letter I replied to given that it was the first "normal" thing he said) and told him I will think about what makes sense and is in their best interests. This was done in a voicemail, as he did not answer the phone, and I am guessing he is too scared to do so. Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be in their best interests? I would love for them to have a healthy relationship with their father - that was my intention the whole time in separating from my husband - but I am scared of letting him back in to our lives given that I don't see any real change in him over the past months. I guess I was really wishing and hoping that if I left him alone, maybe he would show more capacity than he has done until now. And yes, I know that this almost certainly triggered his sense of abandonment, but somehow you can never win with BPD - engagement in the cycle doesn't work and disengagement doesn't work either.

[Horselover]

I have been living separately from my BPD husband for close to three years now due to me not being able to handle his instability.

The goal was to slowly move back together and reintegrate as a family (we have two young children), while he worked on self-regulation. He has been attending individual therapy for at least two years, and has completed two rounds of group DBT therapy. Some of his problem behaviours that made me feel unsafe are random bouts of screaming, slamming doors, dissociating (his eyes become glazed over and it looks like he is "not there"). He can get a job, but inevitably quits the job when triggered and also goes on out of control spending sprees. He is unreliable - when calm, he is sweet, caring, take-charge, and is responsible, but when triggered, he does not fulfill any responsibilities or commitments. He ruins most holidays, vacations family outings etc. by having some sort of tantrum. He has a major problem with emailing and texting in a completely out of control manner, and sometimes sends these rants to my parents and siblings, which is highly embarrassing.

Despite him consistently going for therapy, and demonstrating more insight into himself and his past, he has never taken real ownership of his issues. Sometimes I wonder what he is actually talking about in therapy. He will say sorry after "losing it" and "I have a lot of work to do," but at the same time he does not show true accountability. He has told me many times that he knows he has a problem and that he is aggressive and that he has mental health problems, but he very often says "it's not my fault" or gives the impression that he is a victim of circumstances. Or he will say that it is mostly his fault, but only if it's also a little bit my fault . It's almost like his life goal is that things should not be his fault. I have never even used this language of "fault" at all - I would have liked if we could see it as a couples' project of helping him improve his mental health and therefore our relationship, but somehow he always brings it back to this language of whose fault it is.

Even after three years of trying to get our family back together, he always ends up behaving in a way that prevents us from moving forward - hard to tell if this is subconscious sabotage or not. As of late, he had been able to go longer before losing it, but inevitably the crash came again. Also, although he will say he understands that I moved out because I did not feel safe, at the same time he constantly accuses me of stealing the kids and of living separately from him. Which obviously makes no logical sense. It's very confusing - he seems to want to work on himself so we can live together, and at the same time, he never holds it together so we can move forward.

Over time, I have created more and more boundaries in order to be able to feel emotionally stable myself and be a healthy mother for my children. Some of my boundaries are - I will not communicate with him via texting or email at all ever, given his angry rants in these domains. If he screams over the phone, I hang up, or if in person, I leave. I also never depend on him for anything - if calm, I am happy for him to help out, but otherwise I am happy to do everything myself. I never leave him alone with the kids, as I am concerned about what would happen if he was triggered and started dissociating. Until this past fall, he was participating in our lives when calm and when dysregulated I just basically shut him out in the ways I described above. I have tried validating techniques, but somehow, they don't work for him or calm him down. It's almost like he needs the release in order to go on with life. So at this point, I've given up on that.

In the fall, there was a big shift. He had the longest streak of self-regulation that he had ever had, about 6 weeks, and I could see that he was really trying. Not to say he wasn't having challenges even within this period, but it was the best he ever was, and I felt hopeful. After this, he became triggered by something and crashed very badly, and basically said I have to move back home with him and refused to engage further. I was so disappointed when he lost it after the 6 weeks, and also I could foresee that his silence would likely last a while (he can go into silent/avoidant mode when very stressed). So I decided for the first time to just leave him be and not try to help him recover or rescue him. I figured it is his chance to take accountability if he is capable of doing so, without me pushing it on him. After a couple weeks of silence, he started sending physical letters, and has been doing this for months. I won't go into the specifics of what is in them, but they are mostly what I call fantasy based. He talks about how he is renovating our place so it will be nice for the kids (he seems to have "forgotten" they don't live there), tells the kids he misses them as though he is in a far away land etc. He has not once taken accountably or said he is sorry or addressed any serious issue. He talks about random businesses he is starting (fantasy) etc.

When he initially went silent, I decided that I was not going to respond to anything that was "nonsense" or fantasy. Since there was nothing real to respond to, there has been no back and forth communication for around 4 months now, during which time he has not seen the kids or asked to see them. Recently, I got a letter from him saying that he wanted to visit with them. This was the first real communication I have gotten from him that is not in the nonsense or fantasy category. I'm worried about reopening the cycle again, as he has not taken accountability or shown any insight into anything since he went silent months ago. It has been kind of shocking to me honestly how long his fantasy letters have lasted, without my intervention. I guess I was subconsciously doing an experiment to see how he behaves when left alone, and it is not pretty.

I'm not sure what exactly I am asking from this forum, and maybe this is just me having the opportunity to express what I've been through. I have so many conflicting emotions - while I am frustrated and upset at him, I also feel really bad for him that he is this "damaged", for lack of a better word. And I can see it more clearly now that I have left him alone and been totally disengaged in his cycles while observing from a safe distance. I did respond to his request about visiting with the kids (the first letter I replied to given that it was the first "normal" thing he said) and told him I will think about what makes sense and is in their best interests. This was done in a voicemail, as he did not answer the phone, and I am guessing he is too scared to do so. Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be in their best interests? I would love for them to have a healthy relationship with their father - that was my intention the whole time in separating from my husband - but I am scared of letting him back in to our lives given that I don't see any real change in him over the past months. I guess I was really wishing and hoping that if I left him alone, maybe he would show more capacity than he has done until now. And yes, I know that this almost certainly triggered his sense of abandonment, but somehow you can never win with BPD - engagement in the cycle doesn't work and disengagement doesn't work either.

[Pook075]

I'm so sorry that you've been on this journey for so long and sort of stuck in limbo waiting for something to change.  I experienced that with my daughter and ex wife (both BPD) and parts of your story reminded me of each of them in different ways.  For my kid, she's always been so quick to explode when she's unstable.  DBT therapy has helped her tremendously and it's changed how she communicates a lot, but she still becomes unstable and toxic at times. 

For me, I think the key is less about her always being stable and more how I can help her work through her emotional rollercoaster as quickly as possible.

Part of the problem is the intense shame my daughter and ex feel at times; they both obsess over it and try to over-analyze everything.  But because they're doing it emotionally, their feelings are all over the place and their thinking is disordered.  They know things are their fault but because their mind is working in overdrive to find a solution, what they thought five minutes ago is no longer "fact" as they try to make sense of something that actually doesn't make any sense at all. 

Blaming me means that it's not their fault, and in some ways helps them self-regulate.  But once they tell that lie to themselves so many times, it reaps havoc on the relationship.  The real problem, of course, is mental illness.

You asked only one direct question- should dad see the kids?  I think he absolutely should...for him and for the kids.  Yet if you said, "Okay, let's meet at the McDonalds by your house with the big playground on Tuesday at 7 PM," his mind is going to obsess until that time and you're probably not going to get the best version of him.  Why?  Because he will be so scared of messing it all up, that he will inevitably mess it all up within his mind before even getting to McDonalds.  Or maybe he won't show at all due to shame and dysregulation.

The method I've adopted in communicating with my ex and my kid is apologizing for their hurt feelings and reinforcing that by telling them that I've never meant to intentionally hurt them.  You want your husband to be accountable for his mis-steps, which is what we all want, but that's literally the hardest thing in the world for him to do because of the way he processes information.  It makes sense to him at face value but after thinking about it for an hour, a week, etc, all the thoughts get jumbled and blame comes into the equation.

My advice is to get past the blame part entirely- he's flawed and you are too (he's infinitely more flawed...but we're not blaming so pretend I didn't say that).  Instead, focus on being in the moment between two flawed people who want to have the best intentions for one another.  At the first sign of spiraling, instead of leaving (or hanging up, etc) try to lean in and say it's okay.  Calm him down and reassure him that it's okay, misunderstandings happen.  And reinforce that you'd never mean to hurt his feelings.

If things still go sideways, then do what you're already doing.  I do exactly the same thing.  But I always make the effort to "save" the moment by de-escalating and letting her mind "reset" before going nuclear.  By doing this, the blowouts are far less frequent and I only see their worst maybe once per year.  Most of the time, we skip the blowouts entirely by focusing on each other and letting the moment pass.

For all the other things you mentioned, him not being able to keep a job, him lashing out to family, etc...all of that is a byproduct of not doing that one thing I just mentioned correctly.  The worst place he can be is alone in his thoughts while feeling abandoned or just a failure in general.  That's because what he's really looking for is acceptance.  You feel like you can't fully accept him until he's better....but he'll never get better until you accept him.  So there has to be a middle ground for the relationship to have a chance.  Does that make sense?

[ForeverDad]

However you decide to handle the separation or possible divorce, and whether he is self-sabotaging, worrying, triggering himself or whatever, I would suggest you make any visitation as reduced-stressful as possible.  As previously commented, maybe a schedule might not always work since his mental state doesn't run on a schedule.  Perhaps having planned visits leaves too much time for expecting that next date to find him in a good place mentally.  Playing it by ear, watching for one of his good (or less bad) days and having brief visits might be a strategy that works for him.  Courts generally don't favor such flexible (vague) visitation arrangements but he might be willing to join you in settling on such terms.

On a pragmatic note, he's been in therapy for a few years and there might not be much improvement for even more years.  Sort of, reality.  You might not want to lock him into overnights or entire weekends since that might be more than he can handle.

And of course the children shouldn't be stuck in the middle on his bad days.

[sm1981]

I don't have any advice but a lot resonates with me, it's sad seeing similar patterns play out for someone else.  Accountability is what I've been looking for but it seems an impossible task for my pwBPD.  He's started therapy recently and he did say interesting thing that came out of it was he felt blamed a lot as a child.  Subsequently he now can't seem to take blame well or (as you said) will take the majority of the blame as long as I'm held responsible for some too, and that says "everything wrong in the relationship must be his fault" - with the tone being -he's the poor blamed victim.

I've probably not been any help but I hear you and it's hard

[CC43]

Hi there,

I commend you for imposing healthy boundaries for you and the kids.  It does seem like your man has made some progress, in that he seemed to have stabilized for a good stretch.  Yet with BPD, the negative, victim mindset is deeply ingrained.  I think that's the worst part of BPD, because it renders him seemingly powerless over his own life.  He spends a ton of mental bandwidth blaming others, concocting narratives--often delusional ones--where he's the victim and others are to blame for all his problems.  The huge problems with cultivating this narrative are getting stuck in the distant past, the damage it does to his key relationships, and his lack of accountability over his own life.  It seems he missed the key memo of adulthood:  he's responsible for himself now.  It's like he's still waiting for others to make his life better, and he's constantly disappointed by that.  Does that sound about right?

Now it's possible that continued therapy will help him stabilize for successively longer and longer periods.  I've seen this happen with the pwBPD in my life.  Alas, slip-ups happen too.  I guess some questions are:  When he dysregulates, have the intensity and duration of the outbursts reduced?  Does he get back "on track" more quickly, and resume his forward momentum while continuing therapy?  Or is he getting completely derailed?  Is he taking baby steps towards accepting responsibility for his life, letting go of the victim mindset in some aspects of his life?  Look, I wouldn't expect an apology from him--guilt and shame are huge triggers--but I think I would expect the blaming tirades to lessen in frequency, intensity and duration.  That would be progress in my opinion.  Other indicators of progress would be resumption of some friendships with buddies, say from his job or gym.  Then I'd say, renewed attempts at employment would show some progress.  Sure, he might quit or get fired, but once again, does he get back "on track" quickly, with another job?  Could he keep that one for a few months?  Baby steps.

[Horselover]

Thank you all for your replies and insights.

Pook075, I have a few follow up thoughts and questions.

I guess that in regard to my kids, one thing I really struggle with is feeling like I need to shield them from my husband. I know he says he loves them, and he acts really sweet and caring with them when not dysregulated, but the bottom line is that this isn't how I define love. Love means being there for someone, being unselfish, being reliable. So he can send them all the postcards in the world saying "I love you" and "I miss you", but I find it shocking that he is their dad and did not ask to see them for 4 months! I feel like I need to protect my kids from this kind of love, which is more like a transient feeling of attachment or warmth than real parental love.

I'm not saying my perspective is "right" and I understand that my husband has a serious mental illness, but that's how it feels on my end. And if I am honest, that's how his love feels for me. Like he has a warmth or attachment for me, but there is nothing there in terms of the true meaning of love. So while I feel like I can "handle it" (obviously I find it very sad, even though I can accept that this is the reality),  I just feel so terrible for my kids that this is who their father is. I'm also very worried that he is going to ruin them somehow by constantly appearing and disappearing in their lives, so then I think maybe it would just be better if he didn't see them at all.

If I do proceed with a visit (and I most likely will, despite my feelings), as I can understand why there are also benefits to having a relationship with one's father, even if very imperfect, I hear your concerns (and Forever Dad) about having a planned visit scheduled. But then how do I go about this if we can't schedule it? I am totally out of touch with my husband at this point - I haven't talked to him in 4 months, as all communication, if you can call it that, has been through him sending me and the kids physical letters and me leaving him a couple voicemails about things that needed to be taken care of.   

Now, about your suggestion for de-escalating things before I need to leave or hang up, I have never been able to do this. I really commend you for figuring out how to accomplish this with your ex and daughter. I'm not sure if it's because I'm just not as good at doing it as you are (which is entirely possible), or if my husband is a bit different than them. To me, it seems that he does not respond so much to me saying I do not want to hurt his feelings or any sort of efforts to calm him down once he is ramping up. What he does seem to want is for me to do whatever he is asking for. It's more about me following his request than validating his feelings or soothing him. And the problem is that when is starting to get dysregulated, his requests are often things that I can't do or really don't want to do (like for example, once he started losing it because we didn't have a couch at the time in our new place, and he needed us to buy one "RIGHT NOW"). There is one thing he does do when becoming dysregulated that is not a request - he suddenly starts saying he can't fulfill an obligation (ie let's say we were supposed to go out together as a family), and then starts screaming about how he can't do it (the obligation) and it's not his fault because we don't live together. In this case, I'm never sure how to respond, and I hang up the phone or leave. If you have any further thoughts, or suggestions, I would be interested to hear them!

I also wanted to add that my husband himself has told me that when he is dysregulated, there is nothing I can say or do that will stop him except apologize and say I'm wrong and basically do what he asks. It's almost like once he gets the feeling of pressure rising, he wants to lose it to release that pressure.

I was interested in something you said at the end of your post, that my husband is looking for acceptance. And I can't accept him until he is better, and he can't get better until I accept him. I thought about this for a while, as I think this is an interesting point. I'm not so sure I would describe it so much as me not accepting him (I'm not denying that I don't accept him, but that's not the way I would have described it). It's more that I am literally afraid of him. It's like living with a fire that randomly bursts into flame, and it makes me feel so unstable - financially, physically, emotionally, mentally. He knows very well that I am afraid of him, and I'm sure this makes him feel even more ashamed. But how do I accept him "as is" if I am so mistrustful of him? It's not so much that I am judging him as a bad person (again, I'm not saying I'm not at all judgmental, but I don't think this is the primary issue), it's that I can't accept him as is because I am scared to be around the burning fire. So how can I accept him under these conditions, and how can he get better under these conditions?

I always go back and forth in my mind if there is just an inherent problem that can't be resolved - his needs and my needs are simply incompatible, so the relationship just can't work. BPD is so awful -it's like there is no way of winning.

One more thing - Forever Dad, you talked about how therapy might not help for more years. Is there any way to assess at all if therapy is helping within the first few years, or if the therapist is good, or if my husband is doing any work in therapy? Should I be seeing slow, gradual improvements over time, or I shouldn't be seeing any improvements until quite a few years have passed? Or is every pwBPD different, and every path looks different?  All I know, is that when I read stories that people with BPD have written about their healing journeys, there often seems to be a moment where they take accountability and realize their lives can't go on like this anymore. And then they decide to really put in the work to get better. Not to say that they don't slip up after, but the desire doesn't leave them. This has certainly not happened with my husband, so it makes me feel like this is all hopeless, despite him attending therapy consistently.

[Pook075]

Pook075, I have a few follow up thoughts and questions.

I guess that in regard to my kids, one thing I really struggle with is feeling like I need to shield them from my husband. I know he says he loves them, and he acts really sweet and caring with them when not dysregulated, but the bottom line is that this isn't how I define love. Love means being there for someone, being unselfish, being reliable. So he can send them all the postcards in the world saying "I love you" and "I miss you", but I find it shocking that he is their dad and did not ask to see them for 4 months! I feel like I need to protect my kids from this kind of love, which is more like a transient feeling of attachment or warmth than real parental love.

I'm not saying my perspective is "right" and I understand that my husband has a serious mental illness, but that's how it feels on my end. And if I am honest, that's how his love feels for me. Like he has a warmth or attachment for me, but there is nothing there in terms of the true meaning of love. So while I feel like I can "handle it" (obviously I find it very sad, even though I can accept that this is the reality),  I just feel so terrible for my kids that this is who their father is. I'm also very worried that he is going to ruin them somehow by constantly appearing and disappearing in their lives, so then I think maybe it would just be better if he didn't see them at all.

Hi Horselover!  Thanks for replying and I'm glad we've given you some things to think about.

You are 100% right, these relationships are often not fair and it doesn't feel like true love at times.  I'd do things for my ex all the time and when she was in the right mindset, she'd do things for me as well and show appreciation.  Yet when she was depressed, all of that stopped and I felt like I was single living with a roommate.  I felt so alone during those times.

I can also understand wanting to shelter the kids from future disappointment.  It's a balancing act for sure, but remember that you don't know why dad didn't ask to see the kids.  Part of it was probably shame- he felt terrible inside and had no idea how to come to terms with that.  Part of it was probably instability- he couldn't figure out what he wanted or what he should do.  He wants the marriage back, but how?  He can't hold a job and he can't support his family.  These kinds of thoughts eat at him and since there are no answers when you're allowing depression to defeat you, he doesn't see a path forward.

The way to defeat depression is to get up, to get moving on in life, to actively work through it until you're not depressed anymore.  BPDs can really struggle to find this mindset though.

If I do proceed with a visit (and I most likely will, despite my feelings), as I can understand why there are also benefits to having a relationship with one's father, even if very imperfect, I hear your concerns (and Forever Dad) about having a planned visit scheduled. But then how do I go about this if we can't schedule it? I am totally out of touch with my husband at this point - I haven't talked to him in 4 months, as all communication, if you can call it that, has been through him sending me and the kids physical letters and me leaving him a couple voicemails about things that needed to be taken care of.   

There has to be some level of communication- could you write him a letter back to sort of break the ice?  In that letter, you could point out that you still care about him and that the kids miss him.  You could also say that you'd like to find a way to resume communications, but you're not interested in arguing or blaming.  You'd just like to do what's best for the kids in this situation if he's willing to talk.

In the first correspondence, you should keep it goal oriented and try your best to avoid blame.  You know his issues, he knows his issues, so there's no reason to start with that.  This keeps the pressure low and makes it easy to respond.

Now, about your suggestion for de-escalating things before I need to leave or hang up, I have never been able to do this. I really commend you for figuring out how to accomplish this with your ex and daughter. I'm not sure if it's because I'm just not as good at doing it as you are (which is entirely possible), or if my husband is a bit different than them. To me, it seems that he does not respond so much to me saying I do not want to hurt his feelings or any sort of efforts to calm him down once he is ramping up. What he does seem to want is for me to do whatever he is asking for. It's more about me following his request than validating his feelings or soothing him. And the problem is that when is starting to get dysregulated, his requests are often things that I can't do or really don't want to do (like for example, once he started losing it because we didn't have a couch at the time in our new place, and he needed us to buy one "RIGHT NOW"). There is one thing he does do when becoming dysregulated that is not a request - he suddenly starts saying he can't fulfill an obligation (ie let's say we were supposed to go out together as a family), and then starts screaming about how he can't do it (the obligation) and it's not his fault because we don't live together. In this case, I'm never sure how to respond, and I hang up the phone or leave. If you have any further thoughts, or suggestions, I would be interested to hear them!

I also wanted to add that my husband himself has told me that when he is dysregulated, there is nothing I can say or do that will stop him except apologize and say I'm wrong and basically do what he asks. It's almost like once he gets the feeling of pressure rising, he wants to lose it to release that pressure.

First off, none of this is intuitive.  If I'm mad at you (or vise versa) maybe we say a few things we shouldn't, but eventually one of us realizes that we were both wrong and we apologize.  Then we forget about it entirely and move on.

For BPD's, they start to become dysregulated and their emotions take over.  Go back to our pretend argument for a second, but add in that someone you cared about passed away that day, your car won't start, there's no groceries in the house, kids are screaming for food, and you were fired from your job via text message.  Then I come to you and say a few ugly things...that argument feels different, right? 

That's more aligned with how your husband feels when he's dysregulated, it's like the entire world is collapsing on him and nobody could possibly understand the pain and frustration he's dealing with.  So he says, "Do this, get that, go take care of this thing....".  But does that solve the actual problem?  No, not at all.  The problem is mental illness and him having a mental breakdown, so getting him coffee or running an errand doesn't fix anything. 

And if you focus on the requests, the stuff he says, then you never get to the actual root of the problem.

Again, this is highly counter-intuitive stuff...we don't just know how to see and react to mental illness.  We learn it over time and we get it wrong more than we get it right.  You can't focus on your husband's words when he's unstable.  Instead, you must focus on his emotions and help him calm down enough to exit the disordered state.

I was interested in something you said at the end of your post, that my husband is looking for acceptance. And I can't accept him until he is better, and he can't get better until I accept him. I thought about this for a while, as I think this is an interesting point. I'm not so sure I would describe it so much as me not accepting him (I'm not denying that I don't accept him, but that's not the way I would have described it). It's more that I am literally afraid of him. It's like living with a fire that randomly bursts into flame, and it makes me feel so unstable - financially, physically, emotionally, mentally. He knows very well that I am afraid of him, and I'm sure this makes him feel even more ashamed. But how do I accept him "as is" if I am so mistrustful of him? It's not so much that I am judging him as a bad person (again, I'm not saying I'm not at all judgmental, but I don't think this is the primary issue), it's that I can't accept him as is because I am scared to be around the burning fire. So how can I accept him under these conditions, and how can he get better under these conditions?

I always go back and forth in my mind if there is just an inherent problem that can't be resolved - his needs and my needs are simply incompatible, so the relationship just can't work. BPD is so awful -it's like there is no way of winning.

To be honest, most BPD relationships fail for this very point...how do you trust someone that's not stable?  If you let them back in your life, how long until they do the next thing that breaks your heart?

I don't think anyone here can answer this directly other than to say that he is your husband and because you have children, he will be involved in your life forever.  I personally would set the bar low in terms of expectations- can we get to a place where we can have a calm phone conversation for 10 minutes? 

At the same time though, I'd also keep in mind that BPDs recycle relationships.  Eventually he will love-bomb you all over again and act like the best dad in the world.  In the moment it will all be true because he's happy, life is perfect, and he has his family again.  But the other stuff we've talked about here will come into play more than ever- can you make it last by communicating in a different way to help him remain stable?  Can he get serious about therapy and recovery?  There's so many "ifs" there.

For now though, I think baby steps is the perfect recipe.  Find a way to communicate and work through problems in a healthy way.  That's it.  We can figure out what step two is once step one is complete.

[Horselover]

Thanks again Pook075 for your reply.

Everything you are saying makes sense.

The thing is, I've done all this before - cycling between periods of calm, followed by dysregulation, followed by me reaching out and helping my husband come back to stability. The thing is, something snapped in me after his last cycle and I just don't want to do these cycles anymore. I don't want to rescue him.

It's not because the relationship is unfair, I honestly can come to terms with the fact that his contributions may look a lot less than mine  (e.g., taking care of kids, employment, household chores). I can even come to terms with the fact that he doesn't love me the same way as partners do in a healthy relationship, and it looks different because of his mental illness. I can come to terms with the fact that I am often very embarrassed by his behaviour and that he is unreliable. I can even handle the fact that I can't trust him (I'm not talking about cheating here - that I could not handle - I mean can't trust him to babysit or to be consistent or have a job etc.). I am happy to  support him as he heals, even if it takes years. I am ok with living separately for years if that's what it takes, even if people think we are pretty strange for adopting this arrangement.

What I can't handle anymore is living like I am in a minefield, where an explosion can go off at any second and derail my stability. My psych just can't take it, and then I find myself not being able to talk care of our children and be there for them the way I want. It's too scary to live in a minefield. So yes, I know how to stop the current cycle - reach out to him and say the kind words you suggested - I have done this countless times before. I just don't want to anymore. Not because it's unfair, as I said before, I am ok with unfair. Because by being the rescuer, I feel like I am constantly perpetuating the cycle. I just don't want to participate in the dance of the cycle anymore.

I could handle it if there was a baseline accountability, and he slipped up, even if initially he slipped up often. I guess that's what I am waiting for - to see if he can pull it together by his own initiation. He has all the resources he needs to pull it together at his fingertips - a therapist he likes, a community that would be there for him, me. He is an adult, and it is his responsibility, and I will be there all the way if he does. So when he reached out to see the kids, I am ok with responding and setting up a visit if it's good for them to see him. But I don't want to bear the responsibility for whether or not the visit works out - if he can pull himself together and make it happen, great. If not, I just want to leave him be and see if he can figure it out.

What I am saying probably doesn't make sense in the realm of BPD, but that's where I'm at. Thanks for listening . I am open to further suggestions and comments (and even being told that my approach doesn't make sense )

[Pook075]

What I am saying probably doesn't make sense in the realm of BPD, but that's where I'm at. Thanks for listening . I am open to further suggestions and comments (and even being told that my approach doesn't make sense )

No, what you're saying makes perfect sense.  With my BPD daughter in her teens, I lived in constant fear of what would come next.  Not what happened, not what I expected to happen, but the unknown of it all and constantly adapting...it was exhausting and I ended up having a heart attack from the stress of it all in my early 40's.

In short, I couldn't do it anymore...I hated feeling that way and never actually being in control of anything.

So whatever you do moving forward, it has to involve not getting to that place where the wheels can fall off the bus at anytime.  That means you have to be mentally prepared going into any interaction and until you have that confidence, I wouldn't do anything further (other than respond appropriately when he reaches out).

Let me ask a question- have you told him specifically what you just told me?  Because if you ever got to the point of replying with a letter, that's exactly what it should be.  Not, "You did this and caused that..." but more along the lines of "I stayed so stressed out all the time and I struggled to be a great mom and work full time because of it.  I never knew what to expect or how to handle things when we were struggling.  It made me so upset not knowing how to help or how to even function myself."

Notice how I wrote that- it was all about me, my feelings, my thoughts, etc.  I didn't blame him or challenge him, and my goal of the letter would be to say what I never could before. 

Could that be a place to start?  You don't have to answer now, take some time to think it through what you really want and need out of all this.  We're going to talk this out on your timelines, at your pace.

[Horselover]

Hi again,

Pook175, I'm sorry you had to deal with all that when your daughter was in her teens. It sounds so incredibly stressful, and scary that it reached a point where you actually had a heart attack. My understanding is that she is more stable now? I'm curious how that happened. I'm also curious if you have any thoughts on why my husband can't seem to keep it together despite attending individual therapy and DBT.

In the interim of my last post, and without any further communication from me, my husband has already sent further letters basically saying he really wants to see the kids and also that he wants to only communicate through letters (ie doesn't want to see them). He also said he is coming up with a written plan for how to see them more (this is common for him - he creates a grandiose plan for the next few months, writes it out in a chart format, does it for a few days and then forgets about it). Whatever the case, his emotions are clearly all over the place. I did send him a letter yesterday, which I assume he has not seen yet, saying that I think the kids would benefit from spending time with him in a structured visit, explained the parameters, and said he can suggest a day/time/place etc. I know you all said my husband could easily not show up etc., and I agree that is very true, but I think my goal here is not to manage him. It's to respond only when he makes appropriate requests, come up with parameters I am comfortable with, and give him the opportunity to follow through. It is then his choice what to do. In the past, my goal was to try to make the meeting work (or whatever it was we were working on). So this is a shift on my end.

Regarding your suggestion of writing a letters expressing my feelings without blaming him, firstly, I think I would only talk about the relationship if he makes the first move. Meaning, says something appropriate about moving forward in this domain. So far, he has said things about the relationship, but nothing that was appropriate or really deserved a response (I don't mean deserved as in owed to him, I just mean something that makes sense to reply to). I would consider your idea of expressing my feelings, but in the past, he hasn't been very responsive to my feelings or "I statements". I used to use them in the beginning of our marriage, and he wasn't even able to process that someone else had a feeling aside from him. Like if he NEEDS A COUCH NOW, it doesn't really matter how I feel about it, it's an emergency!!!! Like call 911!!! And get the couch NOW!!

What are my needs in all this...hmmm...I need him to take the initiative to help himself without me rescuing him or being a part of his chaotic cycle. I can support him and accept him as a person struggling with mental illness, but I need him at the foundation to be responsible for himself. I know this is a tall order, and we can't really control someone else. At minimum, though, I can control if I participate in the cycle. At least I think I can?

[Pook075]

I'm sorry you had to deal with all that when your daughter was in her teens. It sounds so incredibly stressful, and scary that it reached a point where you actually had a heart attack. My understanding is that she is more stable now? I'm curious how that happened. I'm also curious if you have any thoughts on why my husband can't seem to keep it together despite attending individual therapy and DBT.

My daughter was in treatment from early teenage years through her early 20's, and nothing changed because my kid didn't try to change.  She used appointments to complain about others and talk through her feelings, without taking any accountability.  Maybe these sessions made her feel validated, but they weren't moving her towards getting better because she viewed her problems as external.

Around 23, she had a relationship fall apart largely due to her own mistakes.  Long story short, she was best friends with her partner's best friend and eventually professed her love for that person.  It did not go well and it ruined her relationship with the partner and the best friend.  She spent several weeks in a mental institution and for the first time in her life, she realized that the problems were within.  And she hated it so much that she finally started working on how to change that.

Over the next year, she went through DBT with a focus on how it applies to her life.  She already knew all this stuff from the previous decade, but always felt like it didn't apply to her and she only needed to say what a therapist wanted to hear.  This time though, she wanted actual change because she was tired of having her heart broken.  It led to us reconciling and a whole lot changed very quickly...once she was actually ready for it.

At 27, my kid is still sick.  However, she has the tools to actively realize when she's in a bad place and she'll reach out for appropriate help.  She can also talk out her problems a lot more directly these days, which makes a huge difference all by itself.  There are still occasionally terrible days but they're a lot less often and tend to pass much faster without a trip to a facility.  She's been hospitalized just once in the past three years and that was voluntary inpatient for a few days.

In the interim of my last post, and without any further communication from me, my husband has already sent further letters basically saying he really wants to see the kids and also that he wants to only communicate through letters (ie doesn't want to see them). He also said he is coming up with a written plan for how to see them more (this is common for him - he creates a grandiose plan for the next few months, writes it out in a chart format, does it for a few days and then forgets about it). Whatever the case, his emotions are clearly all over the place. I did send him a letter yesterday, which I assume he has not seen yet, saying that I think the kids would benefit from spending time with him in a structured visit, explained the parameters, and said he can suggest a day/time/place etc. I know you all said my husband could easily not show up etc., and I agree that is very true, but I think my goal here is not to manage him. It's to respond only when he makes appropriate requests, come up with parameters I am comfortable with, and give him the opportunity to follow through. It is then his choice what to do. In the past, my goal was to try to make the meeting work (or whatever it was we were working on). So this is a shift on my end.

That sounds like a good plan since he is ultimately accountable for the planning and the follow through.  I'm not sure if I would tell the kids though until the day of the meeting to temper expectations.

Regarding your suggestion of writing a letters expressing my feelings without blaming him, firstly, I think I would only talk about the relationship if he makes the first move. Meaning, says something appropriate about moving forward in this domain. So far, he has said things about the relationship, but nothing that was appropriate or really deserved a response (I don't mean deserved as in owed to him, I just mean something that makes sense to reply to). I would consider your idea of expressing my feelings, but in the past, he hasn't been very responsive to my feelings or "I statements". I used to use them in the beginning of our marriage, and he wasn't even able to process that someone else had a feeling aside from him. Like if he NEEDS A COUCH NOW, it doesn't really matter how I feel about it, it's an emergency!!!! Like call 911!!! And get the couch NOW!!

If he's in a disordered state, that's not the time to talk about anything serious (especially household purchases) since he's not fully grasping what would be involved.  I remember my BPD ex wife used to get nervous/depressed/whatever and say, "We need a beach trip, let's pack up and go to the beach for the week!"  And I'd plan a beach trip, regardless if we could afford it or not.  That's a really bad strategy for dealing with mental health and it ensured that we stayed in hopeless debt across our entire marriage.

The better goal in those situations would be to let them come to the conclusion that buying a couch today is logistically impossible.  Where will we get it?  How will we pay for it?  How will we get it home?  They can't find these answers without calming down and thinking logically.  Maybe it brings them out of their manic mindset.

What are my needs in all this...hmmm...I need him to take the initiative to help himself without me rescuing him or being a part of his chaotic cycle. I can support him and accept him as a person struggling with mental illness, but I need him at the foundation to be responsible for himself. I know this is a tall order, and we can't really control someone else. At minimum, though, I can control if I participate in the cycle. At least I think I can?

Those are your needs in terms of your husband's needs.  Forget about him for a moment.  What do you need?  What makes you feel fulfilled and at peace?  It could be anything from visiting friends/family to taking a pottery class or taking a daily walk in the park with the kids (or without the kids, this is about you!). 

Whether you fully reconcile or divorce, your physical/mental needs should be a priority regardless.  The more you find you, the easier it will be to let go of stress, have a healthy outlook, and deal with the problems in your marriage.  Your husband's problems will always be there in some capacity, so that can't define what you need because that's a life with zero control. 

[CC43]

I could handle it if there was a baseline accountability, and he slipped up, even if initially he slipped up often. I guess that's what I am waiting for - to see if he can pull it together by his own initiation. He has all the resources he needs to pull it together at his fingertips - a therapist he likes, a community that would be there for him, me. He is an adult, and it is his responsibility, and I will be there all the way if he does. So when he reached out to see the kids, I am ok with responding and setting up a visit if it's good for them to see him. But I don't want to bear the responsibility for whether or not the visit works out - if he can pull himself together and make it happen, great. If not, I just want to leave him be and see if he can figure it out.

Hi Horselover,

I think you're onto something here.  I can relate to an ongoing underlying concern about the ability of the pwBPD in my life to pull herself together of her own accord.  I'd like to share with you a subtle mind-shift I made a while back.  You see, historically, the pwBPD in my life would mess up (and give up!) as well as show significant signs of distress.  An example might be, she'd lose her job, fight with her roommates, have a meltdown and move in with her dad and me.  Obviously she was torn up about the situation and her life in general.  And her dad and I would try to help, by consoling her, helping her to get back on her feet, helping her move her stuff, offering to help her search for jobs, giving her money so she wouldn't go without, trying to do something fun/nice to ease her funk, etc.  Typically she'd accept the "help," but the positive effects were only temporary.  Why?  Because virtually all the effort was coming from her dad and me.  She was basically a passive recipient of good will.  And when the good will dried up, nothing changed, she was still stuck.

So here's the mind shift I made.  I had to acknowledge that I couldn't fix her problems, and I wasn't responsible for them, either.  By doing too much, I was probably getting in her way of taking responsibility for her own life, for pulling herself together so to speak.  That was hard for me, because I'm naturally a doer and a generally helpful person.  In contrast, she tends to be a dreamer, full of intention, but with seemingly little practical experience, let alone follow through.  Historically, she'd declare her intentions and half-expect others to fulfill them for her.  "I want to move to the city / I'm going to be an artist / I need plastic surgery / I going to move abroad to Paris / I'm going to volunteer in Gaza."  The "old me" would ask practical questions.  The "old me" would offer tips, suggestions and potential contacts.  The "old me" would gently caution about the practicalities, e.g. the expense, administrative burdens, logistics, safety considerations.  In essence, anything the "old me" did short of making her (delusional) dream come true, probably made her feel both incompetent and disappointed.  So now my mindset is, if she really wants something, she'll make it happen for herself.  Now my response is something along the lines of, "I can see why you'd want that.  It sounds really cool."  And that's about it.  At first, I think she was shocked that nobody was making her big dreams come true.  But when she discovered that nobody was going to make her life happen for her, eventually she started doing things for herself.  And I think that shows remarkable progress.

So my advice on something like visitation would be for you to provide (safe and reasonable) access to the kids, and that's it.  I think your husband should be the one to make visitation happen.  He should come up with the plan, ask for your consent, make the arrangements and then follow through.  Sure, he can vocalize his intentions as much as he wants (I want to take the kids to Disney . . . I want to call the kids every day).  My response would be something like, "I'm sure the kids would like that."  But let him come up with workable dates and times (e.g. not during school), tickets, accommodations, the works.  He needs to be the one to make it happen.  Sure, he might talk about it to the kids, and if he doesn't follow through, they are going to be disappointed, but they probably already know he's like that . . . talking about big plans but not necessarily making them happen.  I don't think you can prevent your husband from vocalizing his big dreams to the kids when he's with them.  But what you can do is push the responsibility to him to make visitation / phone calls happen.  It may be that when he is faced with the onus of planning and executution, he doesn't see or talk with the kids that much.  But my opinion is, though it's sad, it's probably a reflection of the reality that your husband isn't in a good enough place to reliably execute on basic plans, and therefore contact with the kids is probably not ideal.  Does that make sense? 

[Horselover]

Thanks to both of you for your replies, and for sharing your experiences with your loved ones with BPD. What you both shared is actually helpful information for me.

Pook075, it's very interesting that your daughter was in treatment for quite a few years without taking accountability, and then there was a triggering event that made her actually want to put in the work to get better. I especially relate to the part about her knowing all the DBT terms but not putting them into practice and also using her sessions for validation. With my husband, I started to realize that it's not about being in treatment that helps, it is really wanting to heal, which he hasn't demonstrated yet. That is obviously not in my control, and any potential catalyst for change that spurs this desire (ie a life changing event) is not in my control either. So I think it makes sense for me to relinquish control (which was an illusion anyway), stop trying so hard to "make it work", and just leave my husband to figure it out for himself or not. Rather than continually trying to rescue him, or get him a better therapist, or ponder how to talk to him so he will follow through etc.

In regard to my needs, since this latest "silence period " from my husband started about 4 months ago, I have been really focusing on myself now that I am not sucked into the drama cycle anymore. I don't necessarily have time or capacity to do everything I want to, as I am essentially a single mother to two toddlers (I would LOVE to take a pottery class!! I just can't at the moment). But I live life to the fullest with my children doing whatever makes us all healthy, happy and fulfilled. I admit that it is hard at times to ignore the background worry about my husband and the future, which I think is normal given my situation. But I do try my best to keep it in the background of my mind, and I also don't talk about any issues in front of my kids, as I want them to feel as secure as possible.

CC43, your story with your pwBPD is also enlightening, as it shows what I finally came to conclude - that rescuing and trying to "fix" the pwBPD does not help and just perpetuates the cycle. As stated before, we can't control if they work on themselves or not, and at least it gives us some peace if we stop trying to hard, at the expense of our own mental health. Also, if there is any possibility of them getting better, I think it would be safe to conclude that it would most likely happen not from us rescuing them, but from them figuring things out for themselves. I don't necessarily regret the years of initial work I put in to help get him into therapy, explain to him why DBT would be a good therapy modality for him etc., as I think that was not called rescuing yet and was actually beneficial. But at a certain point, now that the resources are in place, I need to let him find his wings to fly - or if he can't fly, I don't want to be on his back while he falls to the ground!

I guess what weighs the most on my mind now is what to do regarding my future? How long is it reasonable to wait for him and see if he can figure it out? I know this not a question that anyone can really answer for me, but that's what I'm grappling with now. For the people whose pwBPD is a child, there's really no question like this, as there is no "moving on". For those in a relationship, it's a bit different.

[Pook075]

Pook075, it's very interesting that your daughter was in treatment for quite a few years without taking accountability, and then there was a triggering event that made her actually want to put in the work to get better. I especially relate to the part about her knowing all the DBT terms but not putting them into practice and also using her sessions for validation. With my husband, I started to realize that it's not about being in treatment that helps, it is really wanting to heal, which he hasn't demonstrated yet. That is obviously not in my control, and any potential catalyst for change that spurs this desire (ie a life changing event) is not in my control either. So I think it makes sense for me to relinquish control (which was an illusion anyway), stop trying so hard to "make it work", and just leave my husband to figure it out for himself or not. Rather than continually trying to rescue him, or get him a better therapist, or ponder how to talk to him so he will follow through etc.

I agree completely, you can only control you (and to some extent, the kids since they're little).  Your husband must control your husband and what you're doing is making it plainly clear that he has to make a choice.  That alone could be your catalyst and I really hope that it is someday.  Until then though, you have to continue living your life and not worry about what he might do.

In regard to my needs, since this latest "silence period " from my husband started about 4 months ago, I have been really focusing on myself now that I am not sucked into the drama cycle anymore. I don't necessarily have time or capacity to do everything I want to, as I am essentially a single mother to two toddlers (I would LOVE to take a pottery class!! I just can't at the moment). But I live life to the fullest with my children doing whatever makes us all healthy, happy and fulfilled. I admit that it is hard at times to ignore the background worry about my husband and the future, which I think is normal given my situation. But I do try my best to keep it in the background of my mind, and I also don't talk about any issues in front of my kids, as I want them to feel as secure as possible.

Hey, that's awesome- it sounds like you've adjusted well over the past few months.  You seem to be doing everything right and have the priorities in order (you, then the kids).  All this stuff takes time and four months is such a short period of your life.  It will get easier, I promise!