Even when I won I lost

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I was thinking of all of the arguments she started over the years that were triggered by random things.  A lot of us already know if you argue with a person suffering from a PD there is no real victory. I remember that even if I proved my point or shut her down she would not forget and would restart the argument later. Basically what was the point of winning the earlier confrontation? Every argument drained me more and more. Overall just being in the situation was a losing proposition. It was  like fighting a war of slow attrition.

[Aesir]

I was thinking of all of the arguments she started over the years that were triggered by random things.  A lot of us already know if you argue with a person suffering from a PD there is no real victory. I remember that even if I proved my point or shut her down she would not forget and would restart the argument later. Basically what was the point of winning the earlier confrontation? Every argument drained me more and more. Overall just being in the situation was a losing proposition. It was  like fighting a war of slow attrition.

[lovecanbehard]

Yes, there was never a victory. I remember him one time telling me, "Can you ever just let me win? Can you just support me?" and it turned into a huge thing, after he had asked ME a question and I gave him the correct answer. In the relationship, I found myself suppressing my thoughts all the time. By the end, I was so fed up with it that I just spouted off what I felt and stopped holding back. Obviously, that didn't help our mounting issues but at least I felt "free".

[marti644]

Hi Aesir and lovecanbe hard,

I feel ya. All fights were my fault, even if it was clearly wasn't. My BPD-ex was rude to a staff-member at a fast-food joint. When I told her after we left how rude it was (it was over they way he "looked at her) we sat in silence in the car, between her accusations that I wasn't supporting her.

Because I was fed-up with this repeated situation I took her back to the car and told her that I think it was best we just both go home for the night. Her reaction was an explosion of rage, and she slammed the trunk of my car so hard I thought she would break it. I understand BPD abandonment issues alot more so her reaction makes alot of sense.

The next day when we met she was completely serene and acted as if the rage fit was completely acceptable, mentioning it only in passing and dodging any of my probes into her anger.

Such events recurred repeatedly and wore me paper thin. Thank God we are free of the "crazy making". Lovecanbehard I felt the same way at the end. In our last fight before she disappeared several days later I told her the truth of what I thought finally: "You're full of it".

[mevz]

Every time my ex made me to do something I didn't want to do, we'd have these longs arguments, with him crying, compelling, yelling, the whole works.

I would  argue, justify, beg... .in the end we did what he wanted. And every time when I told him he won, he would say this wasn't a victory, because just once he wanted to hear me agree with him without all the fights and hassles. Like you said, "Can't you just support me for once? Why do you always have to fight everything I ask for?"

  Hmmm, maybe because the stuff u ask for was irrational and stupid Sherlock!

It's amazing the stuff we put up with.

[blueblue12]

I also never won any of the fights, arguments, screaming matches, breaking stuff in the house, hitting me occasions, it was over the top and totally insane stuff. And I would always try and work out in the middle of the madness how did this start and how did it escalate so much... .if we were in a restaurant I would blame the wine, if we were at home I would blame myself, like I must have said something terrible to trigger this, but looking back on it, now I don't think it was my fault at all, I was just there and it was going to start at any point in any case.

The last time we had an episode, we were quietly eating at home, drinking some wine and she said something rude about my previous partner and I just said "oh don't say that" she got up, slam the table, all the stuff ended up on the floor (my cooking) and she just stormed off. She could not help herself and could not stop it. The walking on eggshells bit all over again for me, it was just ridiculous!

But here I am now feeling sorry for her, at the time I was just scared!

[Maboo]

This "winning or losing" thing was one of the hardest things for me in the relationship. I just couldn't wrap my head around this "win" thing. She used this phrase so many times... ."You won! ok?". She usually added "You broke me, you won... .".

Now for me it was constant losing. The fact that she saw us in some kind of a war in the first place, where a side wins when the other side loses, it was frustrating. Whenever I tried to explain that I can't see her "lose" as my "win", because I'm trying to consider us as one thing, not separate, she just wouldn't get it. The fact that she even thought that I was trying to "win", or so much worse, to "win" by "breaking her", made me very worried about how things work in her mind. If she think I do that during an argument, how does she see arguments in general? and how does she make decisions and claims during an argument? was she trying to "win" by making me "lose"? Did she really see it as some kind of a war?

I always tried my best to be empathic. When she was broken, I was broken, period. When I tried to make her realize that, it was like asking her to think of a color she never saw, that how it felt.

[Aesir]

  Hmmm, maybe because the stuff u ask for was irrational and stupid Sherlock!

It's amazing the stuff we put up with.

I've heard this before too.  She would say why did everything have to be my way. My response was because I at least have a reasonable plan as opposed to nothing or a one sided deal that benefits her.

[Aesir]

This "winning or losing" thing was one of the hardest things for me in the relationship. I just couldn't wrap my head around this "win" thing. She used this phrase so many times... ."You won! ok?". She usually added "You broke me, you won... .".

Now for me it was constant losing. The fact that she saw us in some kind of a war in the first place, where a side wins when the other side loses, it was frustrating. Whenever I tried to explain that I can't see her "lose" as my "win", because I'm trying to consider us as one thing, not separate, she just wouldn't get it. The fact that she even thought that I was trying to "win", or so much worse, to "win" by "breaking her", made me very worried about how things work in her mind. If she think I do that during an argument, how does she see arguments in general? and how does she make decisions and claims during an argument? was she trying to "win" by making me "lose"? Did she really see it as some kind of a war?

I always tried my best to be empathic. When she was broken, I was broken, period. When I tried to make her realize that, it was like asking her to think of a color she never saw, that how it felt.

In my experience my ex thought that by arguing and telling me off that she was being assertive and in a way winning. I think she wanted to defeat me because she was dominated by her mother. A battle by proxy of sorts.  

 In my opinion she was already broken and was trying to break or mold me too. When that didn't happen successfully the real drama began. Being emphatic broke down months ago because the depths of her misery, low self esteem and thin skin. I could not see us as being one because of her push/pull tactics. In the end it was due to her selfishness.

[once removed]

i had lots of drag out fights with my ex as well. ive probably never said nastier things to another person, or heard them from someone i loved.

this rings so true to me, even now:

7) Belief that if you say it louder you will be heard

We often feel that if we explain our point better, put it in writing, say it louder, or find the right words ... .we will be heard. People with BPD hear and read just fine. Everything that we have said has been physically heard. The issue is more about listening and engaging. When the relationship breaks down and emotions are flared, the ability to listen and engage diminishes greatly on all sides. And if we try to compensate by being more insistent it often just drives the interaction further into unhealthy territory. We may be seen as aggressive. We may be seen as weak and clingy. We may be seen as having poor boundaries and inviting selfish treatment. We may be offering ourselves up for punishment. It may be denial, it may be the inability to get past what they feel and want to say, or it may even be payback. This is one of the most difficult aspects of breaking up - there is no closure.

lets face it: couples fight. some more than others. some even fight more than average, but keep the health of their relationship, and their bond, above water.

in a healthy relationship however, fighting really shouldnt be seen as "winning or losing".

circular arguments. "kitchen sinking". small problems blowing up disproportionately. most of us were involved in these. it pays, coming out of these relationships, to learn the "fair fighting rules":we should consider them when it comes to the partners we choose, too.

• Focus on solving a problem/reaching a solution rather than venting your anger or winning a victory.

• Deal with one issue at a time. No fair piling several complaints into one session.

• Stay focused on the present. Bringing up the past isn't fair

• State the problem clearly - think through what your complaint is, make sure you have all the facts.

• Avoid blaming the other parent.

• Use an "I-message" to state how you feel. When the kids come back from spending time with you they are often hungry. I am worried that they aren't getting enough to eat at your house.

• Be willing to listen to what the other parent has to say. Summarize what you hear the other person saying. This is called paraphrasing or active listening.

• Focus on the problem - not the person.

• Brainstorm solutions. Be willing to compromise. Give a little to get a little.

• Choose the best solution that will work for everybody - especially your kids.

• Implement the solution. If it doesn't work, schedule another time to talk and pick another solution.

which of these in your relationships were you good at? which were you not so good at?

[Aesir]

i had lots of drag out fights with my ex as well. ive probably never said nastier things to another person, or heard them from someone i loved.

this rings so true to me, even now:

7) Belief that if you say it louder you will be heard

We often feel that if we explain our point better, put it in writing, say it louder, or find the right words ... .we will be heard. People with BPD hear and read just fine. Everything that we have said has been physically heard. The issue is more about listening and engaging. When the relationship breaks down and emotions are flared, the ability to listen and engage diminishes greatly on all sides. And if we try to compensate by being more insistent it often just drives the interaction further into unhealthy territory. We may be seen as aggressive. We may be seen as weak and clingy. We may be seen as having poor boundaries and inviting selfish treatment. We may be offering ourselves up for punishment. It may be denial, it may be the inability to get past what they feel and want to say, or it may even be payback. This is one of the most difficult aspects of breaking up - there is no closure.

lets face it: couples fight. some more than others. some even fight more than average, but keep the health of their relationship, and their bond, above water.

in a healthy relationship however, fighting really shouldnt be seen as "winning or losing".

circular arguments. "kitchen sinking". small problems blowing up disproportionately. most of us were involved in these. it pays, coming out of these relationships, to learn the "fair fighting rules":we should consider them when it comes to the partners we choose, too.

• Focus on solving a problem/reaching a solution rather than venting your anger or winning a victory.

• Deal with one issue at a time. No fair piling several complaints into one session.

• Stay focused on the present. Bringing up the past isn't fair

• State the problem clearly - think through what your complaint is, make sure you have all the facts.

• Avoid blaming the other parent.

• Use an "I-message" to state how you feel. When the kids come back from spending time with you they are often hungry. I am worried that they aren't getting enough to eat at your house.

• Be willing to listen to what the other parent has to say. Summarize what you hear the other person saying. This is called paraphrasing or active listening.

• Focus on the problem - not the person.

• Brainstorm solutions. Be willing to compromise. Give a little to get a little.

• Choose the best solution that will work for everybody - especially your kids.

• Implement the solution. If it doesn't work, schedule another time to talk and pick another solution.

which of these in your relationships were you good at? which were you not so good at?

I mainly was best at trying to focus on the problem and not the person and keeping things in the present. I would also try to move the focus away from blaming and try to be more constructive and highlight positive things and ideas. Overtime all of those efforts fell apart.

[Reforming]

If I'm honest I recognise that I can have a strong to need to win an argument.

My family of origin  don't hold grudges but they like to argue. I just assumed that this was a normal way to interact until I learned otherwise.

I think it's a dynamic that you can see in a plenty of relationships, especially when there's underlying issues that are not being addressed.

Arguing in itself isn't necessarily destructive. In fact many couples who argue actually function quite well.

What is important is how you argue

When you're just focussed on the need to win, to be right it really means trying to force someone else to accept your point of view. This erodes respect and trust and it doesn't allow much space for communication and compromise

I definitely was guilty of that sometimes.  

My ex went to the other extreme.

She would superficially avoid conflict by disowning her feelings  or needs but harbour anger and resentment that she wouldn't express verbally. Instead she expressed it covertly by behaving in ways that were very hurtful or invalidating.

I found it very difficult to confront this and she was so hypersensitive to anger that by the end of our relationship I felt I couldn't express anger at behaviour that was cruel or disrespectful.

PS Most of us like to win

Reforming

[Aesir]

I agree that arguing isn't always a destructive thing. In some ways it can bring certain issues to light and maybe those issues can be worked out. I agree that in the beginning I liked to win arguments , especially when I didn't start them and was attacked. But the issues  (both of ours) never went away and were never resolved so I really didn't win anything. I too could never get angry and had to hide my disapproval so not to set her off and make a situation worse.