House of Cards

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I think I have been handling situations fairly well lately considering the dynamics in my home. I can control my behavior but I cannot control my wife's behavior or my step son's behavior (he is in his early 30s and has paranoid schizophrenia).

I know this is boring crap... .but much of it has to with manipulation and lack of empathy on her part

A couple of weeks ago my wife and I sat down to play a game of cards. While we were playing, the son comes up and begins pacing around the table, she asks him to either sit down or leave the room. He then begins harassing her for something and she would not give into him then he proceeds with his delusion crap of me accusing him of being a child molester. He would not quit and the atmosphere was getting a little tense. He was standing behind me on my left side and I asked him nicely if he needed to say something about me not to do it in my presence. I told him I know you believe what you believe about me but I don't have to listen to it. He screamed a hearty "F you" by faith at the top of his lungs and left the room.

My wife calmly sat at the table and was processing what happened and she was thinking her way through the situation. I listened to her point of view. She was saying things like OK he has a mental illness he cannot help what he thinks... .he has it way worse than we do... .for every "F you" there has to be a consequence. Ok we just need to pray about this and ask God to intervene. I did not at the moment begin praying. I said ok I need to express what I need a step further. I mentioned her thought of a consequence for every "F you" I said it needs to go a step further, I need him not to be saying that stuff around me. It began to fall apart from there when I expressed how it made me feel she did not want to hear it. She got mad that I didn't pray about it at that moment. I said I guess you can deal with it in your way and I will deal with it in my way since we are not in agreement with this this.  She said well I guess I will just go do my own thing tonight and you can go do your thing. I said sounds good to me. The only way to escape the two of them I either have to go into my room and shut the door or leave the house and go do something. I went in my room and stayed the rest of the night

I got up the next day and found the deck of cards in the trash can. She told me that she was never going to play cards with me again.

We are out at the store on monday and she sees a deck of cards and wants to buy a pack. I said I thought you never wanted to play with me again she said I think I do, I said maybe I don't want to. We just dropped it but she bought the cards. We kind of joked about it.

I get home last night and she want to play a game of cards. Inside Im like oh no what will happen with this game. every time we sit down to play a game something happens. She is OCD about shuffling. I let her shuffle her way. I look past the comments if I am doing something "wrong" there is a stack of discard that go next to the regular stack of cards. I reach over to straighten them. She raises her voice for me to move my hand. I overlook that. She told she truly gets aggravated because I do that. Im OK with all that.

Now that the hand is over it's her shuffle I hand her my hand of cards that consisted of 9 cards. she got pissed at me because I laid the cards on the table "wrong". Why did you lay the cards on the table face up? I said I just laid them there so you could see the high cards and distribute them in the deck like you like to do.
HER: I asked you to hand the to me in a stack.
ME: thought you would like to see all the high cards.
Her: don't you remember me asking you to hand me the cards a certain way
ME: I didn't think about it really, its just a few cards.
Me: you will be ok right?

she pushed the cards away in disgust, I left the room and we did not speak the rest of the night

My point of all this? she uses situations to control. It's either cards or its the dishwasher or whatever else is the "control item dugour".

There is no peace, if there is it is short lived. When I enforce boundaries the atmosphere remains tense. I know the card thing sounded trivial but it is the epitome of what goes on pretty much on a daily basis.

Normal things are not normal 

[byfaith]

I think I have been handling situations fairly well lately considering the dynamics in my home. I can control my behavior but I cannot control my wife's behavior or my step son's behavior (he is in his early 30s and has paranoid schizophrenia).

I know this is boring crap... .but much of it has to with manipulation and lack of empathy on her part

A couple of weeks ago my wife and I sat down to play a game of cards. While we were playing, the son comes up and begins pacing around the table, she asks him to either sit down or leave the room. He then begins harassing her for something and she would not give into him then he proceeds with his delusion crap of me accusing him of being a child molester. He would not quit and the atmosphere was getting a little tense. He was standing behind me on my left side and I asked him nicely if he needed to say something about me not to do it in my presence. I told him I know you believe what you believe about me but I don't have to listen to it. He screamed a hearty "F you" by faith at the top of his lungs and left the room.

My wife calmly sat at the table and was processing what happened and she was thinking her way through the situation. I listened to her point of view. She was saying things like OK he has a mental illness he cannot help what he thinks... .he has it way worse than we do... .for every "F you" there has to be a consequence. Ok we just need to pray about this and ask God to intervene. I did not at the moment begin praying. I said ok I need to express what I need a step further. I mentioned her thought of a consequence for every "F you" I said it needs to go a step further, I need him not to be saying that stuff around me. It began to fall apart from there when I expressed how it made me feel she did not want to hear it. She got mad that I didn't pray about it at that moment. I said I guess you can deal with it in your way and I will deal with it in my way since we are not in agreement with this this.  She said well I guess I will just go do my own thing tonight and you can go do your thing. I said sounds good to me. The only way to escape the two of them I either have to go into my room and shut the door or leave the house and go do something. I went in my room and stayed the rest of the night

I got up the next day and found the deck of cards in the trash can. She told me that she was never going to play cards with me again.

We are out at the store on monday and she sees a deck of cards and wants to buy a pack. I said I thought you never wanted to play with me again she said I think I do, I said maybe I don't want to. We just dropped it but she bought the cards. We kind of joked about it.

I get home last night and she want to play a game of cards. Inside Im like oh no what will happen with this game. every time we sit down to play a game something happens. She is OCD about shuffling. I let her shuffle her way. I look past the comments if I am doing something "wrong" there is a stack of discard that go next to the regular stack of cards. I reach over to straighten them. She raises her voice for me to move my hand. I overlook that. She told she truly gets aggravated because I do that. Im OK with all that.

Now that the hand is over it's her shuffle I hand her my hand of cards that consisted of 9 cards. she got pissed at me because I laid the cards on the table "wrong". Why did you lay the cards on the table face up? I said I just laid them there so you could see the high cards and distribute them in the deck like you like to do.
HER: I asked you to hand the to me in a stack.
ME: thought you would like to see all the high cards.
Her: don't you remember me asking you to hand me the cards a certain way
ME: I didn't think about it really, its just a few cards.
Me: you will be ok right?

she pushed the cards away in disgust, I left the room and we did not speak the rest of the night

My point of all this? she uses situations to control. It's either cards or its the dishwasher or whatever else is the "control item dugour".

There is no peace, if there is it is short lived. When I enforce boundaries the atmosphere remains tense. I know the card thing sounded trivial but it is the epitome of what goes on pretty much on a daily basis.

Normal things are not normal 

[formflier]

   

Welcome back to posting on the boards... .I applaud you for your self control and realization of what you have control over.   

In typical FF fashion... .I look for a "next step". 

Realizing that you only control you... .I would ask you to think about your use of humor.  Has that helped the r/s... .hurt... .or neutral?

What do you think would have happened if you suggested getting the cards out of the trash instead of spending money on new cards... .or potentially declined to play cards anymore and instead offered a different activity... .perhaps go for a walk... .do a craft together.

Big picture:  It seems obvious the son is THE issue... .(in military terms... the center of gravity)... .instead of dealing with that in a forthright manner, she appears to want to have "revelations" about relatively small issues... ."Oh... .there just needs to be a consequence about an FU"... .then things will be better.

Oh... .and Byfaith doesn't agree with my revelation... therefor Byfaith's non agreement is now THE issue... .  Bad Byfaith... .

Do you think have dysfunctional thought process analyzed correctly?

FF


 

[byfaith]

this is how it will play out... .I will get a text or a phone call today addressing the card situation and how it was my fault and if it wasn't for my mouth that we would be able to get through a game.

Honest to God I don't know what to say to her, I am bummed because I feel like a failure at communicating. Then I think to myself I can talk to the rest of the world and I do fine. I have managed a department and different personalities for the past 18 years but I suck at it at home. I'm frustrated is what I am.

are validation skills not easily learned by some? at times I think I am successful.

I am burned out in my mind

We are going back to mc. we go back for our second session tomorrow. It was my wife's idea to go back but somewhere down inside of me I think she is using it as a control tactic. Anytime the conversation goes to what I need or what I am feeling the crap hits the fan. I can deliver my thoughts in a monotone voice with no facial expression sighs or anything and it still would not be good enough

[byfaith]

you are spot on my friend... .as I was leaving the MC last week, my wife had already left and I mentioned to MC that we will be needing to discuss the son here soon and his response was YES he is the elephant in the room

[formflier]

Good post... .good insight... .thanks for being open...


A few thoughts...

this is how it will play out... .I will get a text or a phone call today addressing the card situation and how it was my fault and if it wasn't for my mouth that we would be able to get through a game.

Let's hope it is a text... .even if it is a phone call... take it and listen.  

Use the phrase... ."Can I relfect back to you?  I want to understand what you are saying"

If she says no... ."Ok... please let me know when I will be able to reflect back... .I've got to go now.  See you this evening."  End it...

If she says yes... "So... what I'm hearing you say is my mouth is solely responsible for our inability to get through a game.  :)o I have that right?"

was rinse repeat... . If she keeps adjusting... .hang with her.  If she says no... exit.

Honest to God I don't know what to say to her

Tried to help you out above with this.  At this point... .stick with your gameplan.  Stay neutral.  :)on't attempt validation.  Focus on avoiding invalidation.  Focus on listening.

, I am bummed because I feel like a failure at communicating.

In her eyes you are... .please avoid using her opinions or actions as any sort of measuring stick.  Let us know what you have said and done... .we can guide... .or your MC can guide.

Then I think to myself I can talk to the rest of the world and I do fine. I have managed a department and different personalities for the past 18 years but I suck at it at home.

Yep... .this is true.  Keep focus here.

I'm frustrated is what I am.

And you should be... .

are validation skills not easily learned by some? at times I think I am successful.

Certainly this is a foreign language to many of us... but it can be learned.

My take is that your wife doesn't want to be validated or is "too far gone" to "hear" validation.  In those cases... .focus on avoiding invalidation

I am burned out in my mind

As you should be... .

What is your self care routine?

We are going back to mc. we go back for our second session tomorrow. It was my wife's idea to go back but somewhere down inside of me I think she is using it as a control tactic. Anytime the conversation goes to what I need or what I am feeling the crap hits the fan. I can deliver my thoughts in a monotone voice with no facial expression sighs or anything and it still would not be good enough

Again... .spend less time figuring out your wife's "reasons" and more on her actions.  This is good thing.

I would express your concern in MC about not being able to talk about feelings and such.  Perhaps not in first few sessions... .take your cues from MC.

When it comes time to say it... .be succint... .tell it from your point of view... .in a non-accusatory way.  She will feel accused anyway... .but it does matter how you say it.  

Less words are better.

FF

[formflier]

I find it interesting how our life stories cross.

Guess who is meeting with Biblical Counselor today?

Yep... .my Psychologist is going to have a private sit down with him.  He is the head of the "women's ministry" at the church in addition to being a biblical counselor.

Goal is to see if there is anyway for secular and religious to work together.

Further goal is to understand how adjustments get made when, after a year under the "care" of the church her behavior is much worse  (teaching children I am not a Christian... .etc etc... )

Sigh...

FF

[byfaith]

I hope that goes well... .It is good that your BC is willing to even meet with the Psychologist. From what I remember about your P is that she has a Christian tone to her approach? If that is the case that will help, hopefully.

I have to ask you a quick question

If I ask her "can I reflect back to you?" that just means I am repeating what she has conveyed to me to let her know I have listened, correct? if she says yes

then I say to her

"So... what I'm hearing you say is my mouth is solely responsible for our inability to get through a game.  :)o I have that right?"

if she says yes. Where do I go with that? Do I say ok I hear what you are saying? If I don't agree with it, this is where I get messed up. If I say ok let me think

about this about this, I overthink it and then don't have the answer she wants.  If she says you should have just done what I wanted and everything would have

been fine.

This is on most everything, the card game scenario is just the latest example. If she hears me say " can I reflect back to you?" she will ask me who were you talking

too LOL!  I will try to use it anyway

[formflier]

if she says yes. Where do I go with that? Do I say ok I hear what you are saying? If I don't agree with it, this is where I get messed up. If I say ok let me think
 

https://youtu.be/qhEEiODlQME

The video is a very general overview, and yes it is likely that you wife is on the severe end of things. 

That being said, it is still important to model empathy and listening.  Then eventually bring that up in counseling, this is what I'm trying to do (you to counselor) how can you help me be more vulnerable to my wife.

That should cue the counselor to give your wife some tips.

Back to my example:  She agrees... .yes you have it right.  Stay neutral to a big concerned.  "Ok... I can see this is very important.  Let me think this through.  Can we talk about this more tonight after dinner?"

Stay away from agree/disagree.

Thoughts? 

FF

[formflier]

When she tries to "jump to the fix"... .ask her to slow down so you can understand.

Let her know you are all about improving the relationship, but you want to understand her feelings first, then think deeply about what to do in order to improve.

Yep... .most of these "tactics" are designed to slow things down... .Get away from "reacting" and get to deliberate decisions.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

My point of all this? she uses situations to control. It's either cards or its the dishwasher or whatever else is the "control item dugour".

There is no peace, if there is it is short lived. When I enforce boundaries the atmosphere remains tense. I know the card thing sounded trivial but it is the epitome of what goes on pretty much on a daily basis.

You are right--it isn't about the cards.

It is about her making you "wrong" one way or another.

She's incredibly good at twisting things, creating circular arguments, etc.

You can't "win" at that game--if you go against it directly, you are JADEing, and invalidate her which only makes things worse.

You also don't "win" if you agree and apologize.

By the time she's blaming you, validation is really tough--she's not receptive, and you aren't sincere.

Try boundary enforcement instead--Simply remove yourself whenever she launches into blaming you for (whatever).

[formflier]

The good news... .boundary enforcement resulting in a tense atmosphere likely indicates that you are being effective in boundary enforcement.   

FF 

[byfaith]

thanks for the feed back... .umm well I was wrong on what she would do. She is detaching at the moment. Not sure if she thinks she is punishing me? She basically has not spoke to me yesterday or today. She shut herself in her room when I was home last night... .Ok more later... .just got a work email I have to address

more later

BF

[formflier]

  She is detaching at the moment. Not sure if she thinks she is punishing me? 

Or... .she has decided to delay communication... until she has something to communicate... .or can do it better.

This is potentially a good sign... .

FF

[byfaith]

some positives

She has not been on a texting rampage against me

She came to MC yesterday (he had to cancel appointment at last minute)

She is not saying anything negative toward me when I get home at night. It has been very subdued not much to say.

some negatives

was sitting in church wed night and she sent me a text. HER: I really don't need you to go with me tomorrow to drs, but thank you anyway. Ill probably go to (her friend) afterwards for a visit and cards
(IMO "and cards" was a dig on me for the card incident) I just texted back ok

earlier in the day I texted her and let her know I was still planning on going to the dr with her on thursday if she still wanted me to. I just needed to know so I could plan my work ( her response came 5 hours later)  in the past I would have wanted to go and comfort her etc... .she was having a nerve conduction test for carpal tunnel on both arms.

tuesday evening after the card incident she apparently got on her online game, well she spent a bunch of money on it. We have discussed this. She said she would stop spending on it. She cranks it up when she gets mad at me since jan 1 she has spent $220 on this game. She is forcing my hand on the money situation and the bank accounts. I am to the point that having a discussion on it does not work any longer and I will have to do what I need to do

ok right now I need to find a way to make things "better" going into the weekend. FF I believe your expression is "lean in"  that is what I am going to try and do.

I have found some material on Focus on the family for studying the Bible together as a married couple. I will present this to her instead of sitting down with a game or watching TV.

She comes to me and tries to discredit me as a christian leader in my home. If you need me to go into the fines points of her hypocrisy here I will BUT I will try to move in this direction with her and see how it goes. Some people are not wanting to be lead.

As the MC put it last week, if you are going to use the God card in your marriage at the end of the day if you are not applying those principles then what you are saying is all BS. He asked her at the beginning of the session why she wanted to stay married to me. Her first answer was " I believe God put us together, then it was "I do love you" then it was "I would be lost without you"

I asked her a couple of days later what she meant by "I would be lost without you" she said I depend on you... .I have always depended on someone.

My point here is that I will try to do my part... .it gets tuff when all this stuff is swirling around in my mind that is not going well.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?







 



 

[byfaith]

I just texted her a little while ago...

ME: Good Morning I want to let you know that I found something for you and me. Studying the Bible as a married couple. I would like to share that with you.

Her: I ve been starring at the text you sent me for 12 min. It's a nice text , but I'm confused.

I look at the "I'm confused" as trying to bait me into a discussion of what I have done "wrong" the past few days.

[formflier]

Solid moves.  

"Lean in... " and when (yes there will be a when) she bats you away... .be nonchalant.  If she sends you a "5" on a (1-10) scale of "get away from me"... .give her back a 2.  Same for when she does the "come here".  

You are the leader... .drive towards neutrality.  Why neutraility?  pwBPD don't have skills to deal with "extreme"... .or frankly... .even normal emotional swings/events.

For the "God thing".  You know she will try to twist scripture.  :)on't disagree or correct.  Practice variations of reflecting back to her... and then finish open ended... .

"What is it that you want me to understand from how you see things... ."


Somehow work into your leadership a challenge verse.  I would ask to you prayerfully consider

1 Peter 1 verse 13 (Below is from NIV)

Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.


The idea that I would hope you can continue to demonstrate and gently... .gently... .remind her of is to be "alert and sober"

Practically speaking... this works well with advice her to "slow down so I can get on the train" (non to pwBPD).

Note:  Keep clear in your mind what is abuse... .and when the line is crossed... .exit... .immediately.  No justification.  This DOES mean that you "tolerate" outbursts and unreasonableness, weird arguments... .twisted logic.  (My "what do you want me to understand... ." phrase is aimed at twisted logic).

They will likely not admit to twisted logic... .but stop arguing.  Validate that this stuff is hard... .move along.  :)O NOT "make" her admit she is wrong.

Quick FF story, especially for religious types out there:  I am NOT into predestination.  I believe we have free will.  Yep... you guessed it... .my wife has run off on a tangent lately that there are "the elect" that are going to heaven and the rest that are not... .no matter what they do.

I don't directly confront and say it's wrong... .I sort of muse aloud rhetorically... ."So... .do our decisions in this life matter?"... .then I keep listening.  

I can totally see how pwBPD like theories that basically say their decisions and actions don't matter... .

Sigh...

FF

[formflier]

Her: I ve been starring at the text you sent me for 12 min. It's a nice text , but I'm confused.

 

No response needed... .

[byfaith]

I did not respond

get another text

HER: Id like us to make an appt with the pastor

HER: How does that sound?

Me: Fine

NOTE: since nov of 2012 she has been to church a total of 4 times  the last 3 times have been in the last month and 1/2.

My wife has not been part of a church or regular exposure to Bible teaching since she was 16 years old. She is 55. My wife is the type that watches everyone else and decides whether they are a good christian or not and deals with them accordingly. About 3 1/2 years go she sent my mom an anonymous letter scathing her for certain behaviors... .calling her rude, vindictive, nasty... .at the end she used some reference to hell as if that is where she believed my mom was going.

As far as I am concerned she wants to get me in the pastors office to "blame" me for this and that. It could get ugly.

I KNOW I can't focus on what I think she wants to do... .but she seems to be rallying troops "to her side" as she wades into coming into the fellowship of the church.

[flourdust]

"I'm confused." = I'm suspicious and paranoid. You're up to something. I don't know what, but I know it's some kind of attempt to control me.

"I'd like to set up an appointment with the pastor." = So I need to get you before you get me. Here's my counterattack!

[Grey Kitty]

Her: I ve been starring at the text you sent me for 12 min. It's a nice text , but I'm confused.

Two choices from there that I'd consider in your shoes... .

She's upset about something obviously... .perhaps there is something you can validate? 'Tho validation by text message is really hard; I'd pass on this opportunity and wait for one that might work better later; not to worry, there are thousands of opportunities to validate!

Or in the words of one of my best and wisest friends... .

"There isn't a a question, so I don't have to answer it"

Seriously... .there is a bit of dangling bait begging you to provoke a fight... .but there isn't a single valid question that needs your response in that!

[byfaith]

FD,

I can agree somewhat... .She has asked me before to study the Bible with her yet she does not go to church, she does not read her Bible on her own it's like she wants to hold something against me if I don't do these things as she sees fit (control) She has done nothing to prime herself to "receive" the Word.

Meeting with Pastor... .My pastor knows that my wife has issues but he will probably take the point of view such as Formflier's BC did. I would say that my pastor will place the responsibility at the feet of both but he will lean more of placing the burden on me.

Personally I don't believe most pastors are equipped to deal with these situations and I am not holding that against my pastor. That is why I am leary of going to my pastor. pwBPD traits can be very decieving even to a spiritual leader

[formflier]

HER: Id like us to make an appt with the pastor

HER: How does that sound?

Me: Fine
 

While you answered the question... .you didn't clarify things.

Send her this text... stay open...

"How do you see this meeting being arranged?"

Or some version of that.

FF

[formflier]

  My pastor knows that my wife has issues but he will probably take the point of view such as Formflier's BC did. I would say that my pastor will place the responsibility at the feet of both but he will lean more of placing the burden on me.
 

Do you go to church regularly?  Are you a member?

Does the step son go to church?  Member?

Have you guys ever talked to pastor before... .jointly?  Has she ever talked to him alone?

Have you talked to him alone?

Trying to nail down dynamic some... .

Does he consider himself a pastor... .or a "biblical counselor"... .both? 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

As far as I am concerned she wants to get me in the pastors office to "blame" me for this and that. It could get ugly.

I KNOW I can't focus on what I think she wants to do... .but she seems to be rallying troops "to her side" as she wades into coming into the fellowship of the church.

Trust yourself. Trust your faith.

If she does the impossible and somehow convinces the entire congregation of "her side", you still have the power to choose to do the right thing for yourself. (Not that it would ever happen!)

And trust that the people who matter will catch on to what is really happening, and won't judge you instantly as being in the wrong.

[formflier]

And... .we can focus on getting some verses in your head... .and on tip of your tongue... .to "slow things down"... .if she wants to go off to the races.

I'm certainly interested in your answers to my questions... .and right now I have an assumption that you pastor is at least "fleet average" (Navy term for competent) and sorting through stuff.

At the moment I feel confident to tell you... ."not to worry about it... ."

You know how much she has been to church and read her Bible... .it seems like not much.  There is no chance... .none... .that a pwBPD with that little actual knowledge can put on a "smear campaign" and bamboozle a "fleet average" pastor and group of church goers.  

My wife has been over halfway through the training to be a Biblical Counselor (I've been a bit further), she reads the Bible voraciously but tends to prefer reading books that others write about the Bible.  Those whose worldviews she agrees with... .

She is very comfortable with terms... .verses and all that.  When not dysregulated she is very convincing that an "incident" was a "one off" thing for her and she "just needs forgiveness"...

Anyway... .don't overthink or overanalyze... . Is there any chance your wife can "talk the talk" in a manipulative way for an hour straight with a Pastor... .and convince him?

FF

[byfaith]

Do you go to church regularly? Yes sir, I lead the music  Are you a member? Yes for 17 years

Does the step son go to church? No, but I invite him  Member? No

Have you guys ever talked to pastor before... .jointly? not yet  Has she ever talked to him alone? yes to him and his wife at the same time

Have you talked to him alone? yes, several times. sometime just to vent. The last time she wanted to meet with him jointly I steered away from it because I told him it would cause issues but I am not avoiding this time.

Trying to nail down dynamic some... .

Does he consider himself a pastor... .or a "biblical counselor"... .both? Pastor, he has never tagged himself BC. The Bible says that that a pastor should also be apt to teach... .so teaching or counseling biblical precepts would come with the territory 

[formflier]

Don't save herself from her idea... .

Meet with pastor... .let her go off on her tangents... whatever they may be.

I think you should have 2-3 changes that you "as head of household" propose.   Very simplistic... but effective ideas. 

Do NOT go to counseling to "debate" with your wife... .or even "disagree" with her worldview... or her "version" of events... .

My take:  You will be ok doing this... .

FF

[byfaith]

Is there any chance your wife can "talk the talk" in a manipulative way for an hour straight with a Pastor... .and convince him?

probably not, I would hope that he would be more discerning than that at least by knowing her history as far as church involvement goes, you are probably right I am over thinking it

From my standpoint I am worried that I am getting a harder heart than I have had in the past, maybe it's just that I am more aware of what it really is