I Need a Dose of Truth - What About the Kids?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Hi,
I have been struggling - and yet generally succeeding - while getting healthy while still married to uBPDw.  I'm still stuck after two years deciding to stay or go, and how to approach either choice.  I'm asking for viewpoints of kids of a BPD mom, who stayed married or divorced.  What is it like? What should I do for the kids benefit?

My wife is uBPD, with traits more of the waif and hermit variety, and some avoidant traits mixed in.  She hasn't had a proper black-pitted-eyes of a "rage" in a year or so.  She is high functioning to the outside world - though she is willfully unemployed, and overwhelmed.  It seems to me that she is most often one or more of: sick, injured, depressed, stressed out, or on the edge.  Generally, I think of her as a walking-talking raw nerve.  Meanwhile, I've learned a lot about BPD and how to manage.  And I try to keep myself, and thereby the kids, safe and healthier than without me.   I'm still married as a sense of duty and contract, and over-developed religious dogma too, I'm afraid.  There's not love that I feel, or would miss if we separated.  I'm not afraid of, or avoiding, divorce anymore. 

My prior threads contain all kinds of details and stories.  If you desire to know more about my story those threads contain more details.  But, to summarize: I've got five kids, D18, D15, S12, D9, D6.  D18 is away at college, and seems to be very well adjusted.  D15 models some of the moody blame and rapid emotional reactivity of mom.  S12 is very profoundly affected, somewhat Aspergian, if not BPD with little emotional regulation, and rages and threats galore. D9 and D6 are two of the sweetest, happiest, and most sincere (and intense in the case of D6) kids I've met.  Although I've always been a very involved dad, I have been "born again" as a dad as I started to wake up about BPD in 2015 and I've been on a path of teaching and modeling emotional intelligence and mindful parenting. This has paid off the most with my relationship to the younger kids.
I have read dozens of books about BPD, divorce, parenting, and other mental health self-help issues.

I can say I'm trying to stay married in order to provide constant presence and stability for the kids.  Admittedly, it's logistically and financially simpler to stay married.  However, I also see the house as a toxic atmosphere - and regardless of my presence, it's harmful to the kids.  In my heart I believe I'm not going to be able to keep going forever like this. 

I'm asking for some community comments about what the kids of a BPD parent evaluate as the effects of their parents staying married, and/or getting divorced.  I am looking for certain truths or a litmus test to guide my decision.  This isn't emotional in that I feel love for mom, and I am not torn for that reason.  It's business now, and I want to do the best for me and the kids.
 
Are there key points to consider? 
Make or break elements I should look for? 
Can you speculate if your life was improved or degraded by your parents decision to stay or split?

Any perspective would help.  I really want to do what's right. Thanks in advance.

[peacebthejourney]

I'm a newbie so I'm not sure how helpful my reply will be.

I am the daughter of two alcoholic and abusive parents and my mother was most likely BPD. My father and mother stayed married. I am also the former wife of an abusive man who was diagnosed with BPD and narcissism at psychotic level. I had three children with my former husband, I ended up leaving with our children in order to protect the children from abuse. I also am married another man (not abusive or mentally ill) and am a stepmother to three.

I can say for sure that children do not fare well when they are raised by two parents who don't get help for serious issues. My siblings and I all were all deeply effected by the toxic home we grew up in. That said, my siblings and I have all had victories  in overcoming what we grew up with, in differing amounts due to personality differences and amount of time in therapy and motivation in practicing new behaviors.  One of my siblings, the youngest, was diagnosed with BPD at 18 years old.

People I've known who had one parent with a major issue and one parent who did their best to deal with it in healthy ways. Those children still grow up with issues but they have a little more trust and a little higher self-esteem than those who had no parent looking out for their well-being.

So far, the fact that I divorced my abusive husband and strived to create a healthy life for my children seems to bear mostly good fruit. They are all effected by their relationship with their dad being difficult. They all had some of the challenges typical of kids of divorced parents. At the same time, they are now adults seeking healthy lives, they all are kind and compassionate, they have made many good choices, they all are mature in self-awareness and in being responsible for their own actions.

My experience as a stepmother has taught me some more on this topic. Divorce is painful for all kids--whether or not abuse or mental illness are going on with one of the parents. My biological kids actually weathered the pain of divorce more smoothly than my stepkids, because they knew why the divorce happened and they knew their own lives improved after the divorce (abuse ended, life was no longer chaotic, they were no longer living in fear on a daily basis). My stepchildren were not given a good reason for the divorce of their parents and they could not easily see improvement in their lives--so their grief process was much longer.

I stayed in my first marriage for 14 years because I did not consider divorce an option. But when I left I did it for our children. I knew my children could not protect themselves and that I as a parent needed to take action for their well-being. Before I left, one of my sons was raging like his father and I told him that was not okay. He replied, "But Daddy does it." It was a painful day for me. I told my child, "Yes, that's true. But I'm not your daddy's mother and it is not my job to teach him how to behave, but I am your mother and it is my job to teach you." After we left, I found out my children knew far more about their father's illness and his violence than I thought they did. They had seen and heard things I tried to shield them from. Unbeknownst to me, my eldest child (7 when we left) had spent time debating whether to call the police because of her father's behavior with me. They had felt lots of stress they could not verbalize until after we were safely away. I had thought they were doing okay in a stressful home--after we left I saw that I had underestimated how much they were being harmed by our dysfunctional home.

As my children grew up, it became clear one of my sons had some of the issues my husband did. It has been nerve-wracking at times, but also rewarding to see that with him being part of a healthier family system he has recovered from mistakes and weaknesses with ultimate strength. He has addictive tendencies, a short temper and some narcissism leanings--but he has faced each of these issues and chooses to be a kind person and to steer his life away from drugs and alcohol because "he doesn't like how he behaves" when a substance is mixed with his temperament. He is 25 now and is growing into a fine young man. He has the tools to be able to examine his behavior and decide how he truly wants to live his life. None of my children ended up with BPD for which I am very grateful.

There are no easy answers. A dysfunctional is painful and harmful to children. A divorce is a trauma to all children. At a certain point, a divorce is better than a toxic home environment if the children remain in the care of the healthier parent who is committed to getting help and building a healthy family life. But determining where that point is--that's difficult. Divorced kids with single parents are vulnerable in the world--predators and drug dealers and criminals easily spot them. So if you ultimately decide it is in your children's best interest to have the divorce, then you need to be aware of the vulnerability and be committed to providing a healthy environment as quickly as possible, by continuing to be a fully engaged parent and by seeking counseling for everyone including yourself. Just remember that kids cannot be relied on to let you know how stressed or abused they may feel until they are in a safe environment. No matter what you do, the road is challenging and painful. You can't ever undo that you bore children with a BPD spouse.

You're in a difficult position. I wish you all the best in figuring out what to do.

[flourdust]

I can only address this from the perspective of a parent. I hope that's helpful.

I separated from my BPDw about a year ago. We have one daughter, now 11. For the few years prior to the separation, the house was an increasingly toxic environment. She was exposed to near constant conflict, a mother who would often rage, storm off, threaten suicide, and sometimes physically abuse her. As the healthy parent, I was pretty much incapable of moderating her mother's behaviors, so my ability to provide any kind of safe space was limited. She often found herself in the middle, trying to mediate between us or being used by her mother as a confidant/therapist. She thought we were going to get divorced, and that scared her. She thought her mother would run away. Sometimes she had fantasies that she was in a different family. Her schoolwork suffered as she became withdrawn and sad at school. Her social life suffered, because it was difficult to give her opportunities when our house was a dangerous environment and her mother couldn't be relied on to be helpful.

The separation has been an enormous improvement. I have majority custody. Our time together is much more enjoyable and predictable. When it's time for dinner, we eat. In the past, her mother would storm off or demand to be brought dinner in bed or might make a scene at a restaurant. There's no walking on eggshells around the house. She knows that if something is scheduled or planned, it will happen, and it won't be upset by some kind of emotional explosion.

She's also able to act out in age-appropriate ways. She does typical tween stuff -- blowing off responsibilities to play on her phone, mouthing off to me, lying. I think she feels safe to do these things, because I impose predictable consequences, and the situation doesn't escalate out of control.

By contrast, her time with her mother (about 25% of the overnights, plus some after-school hours) is more chaotic. They can have a wonderful loving time together or an enormous fight, with her mother threatening to call 911 to have her taken away. Her mother can engage her in cooking a meal together or feed her nothing but fast food for a week. It's unpredictable, and when they get into conflict, it can ramp up to the point where it's physically unsafe.

That part is out of my control. What is in my control is what happens when she's back in my custody. I keep the environment calm and safe and stable, and I can see her sometimes leaving her mother's in a very distraught or angry state, but quickly reverting to a happier baseline when under my influence. This is something I wasn't able to do when we lived under the same roof.

This is how it looks to me at a year out. I hope this is helpful.

[Basenji]

I'm asking for some community comments about what the kids of a BPD parent evaluate as the effects of their parents staying married, and/or getting divorced.  I am looking for certain truths or a litmus test to guide my decision.  This isn't emotional in that I feel love for mom, and I am not torn for that reason.  It's business now, and I want to do the best for me and the kids.
 
Are there key points to consider?  
Make or break elements I should look for?  
Can you speculate if your life was improved or degraded by your parents decision to stay or split?

Any perspective would help.  I really want to do what's right. Thanks in advance.

I was the child of a uBPD mother who split from my father when I was about 8 years old. My uBPD mother then recruited myself into an adult role to make up for the loss of her partner. This can lead to what is technically called "emotional incest". If you're not across the topic, please may I recommend the book, "The Silent Partner". The consequences on me have been far reaching and prevailed for many years.

Please may I suggest that you consider the risk of such happening into account should your wife retain any custody as you evaluate your options? I'm not saying it's a reason to delay separating from your wife, but a psychological dynamic to be prepared for and perhaps to have a mitigation strategy ready to roll in the event of... .

As a general point, may I express a personal opinion that in the event of separation the borderline person may shift in their attitudes / behaviours: what you experience now may not be the measure of what could come: expressing emotional incest is just one possible outcome. Behaviours may be expressed differentially between the kids... .

In my own case, my father checked out after the separation. Switched off emotionally and / or was already endowed with traits of subclinical sociopathy. He wasn't there for me when I needed him most. I am assuming that in your own case you would be there for your children, be armed with an understanding of the borderline personality and be ready to handle what's to come!

As a child I had come to the conclusion it was better that my parents did separate because it removed the arguments, the anger, the discontent from the home. Other friends had parents who did not separate and went home to emotionally and psychologically draining home environments where the parents thought they were doing the right thing by not separating for the sake of the kids.  If home is not a happy place something has to change!

Kids also pick up on stuff. My parents always let me know that I was the cause of their malcontent by always fighting supposedly in my name rather than in the reality of their adult selfishness. If kids sense you are sticking around because of them, that may or may not itself have a negative impact on their perceptions of their family relationships and relationships in general.

But looking back the cost of separation on myself as a child in terms of then being subjected to abuse through emotional incest has been high. Buy maybe you  can control that outcome!

If I could wave a magic wand, I would keep children away from a borderline parent as the absolute priority, and have them cared for by the other parent or relative where such is able to provide a loving and stable home environment. I would fight tooth and claw to avoid children being exposed to the emotionally and psychologically divisive and insidious slow burn abuse meted out by the borderline. But that's me, and my experiences and perceptions may or may not be relevant to others.

In your situation I would separate and then fight for custody on the basis of diminished capacity for a borderline to care for their children... .a very hard road to travel! And I stress a point of view derived from my personal experiences, which may not apply in your case... .

Whatever you decide please be bold and decisive! There may not be a "right" answer - simply doing something to advance the situation may be better than doing nothing!

Good luck!

[vortex of confusion]

My parents stayed married. There are times that I wish they hadn't because their relationship has always been so toxic. I am certain that mom is BPD. Dad has issues but not quite like mom's. I am glad that they stayed together because dad was able to shield me from my mother to a degree. If there is a chance that the BPD parent would get the kids, I think that staying might be in the best interest of the kids so that you can be there to shield them from the crazy. I know that my dad has told me that he took me under his wing because of how my mother treated my older siblings. The two of my siblings that were around my mom the most are the ones that have the most mental issues.

Since ex has left, my kids have improved drastically and they feel much safer in our home environment. I had to take action to show them that dad's behavior was NOT acceptable. That was only possible because I was able to keep the kids. I don't how I could have shielded them and protected them if there was a chance that he would try to take them.

[Basenji]

I recommend the book, "The Silent Partner".

Oops... .the correct title is "Silently Seduced" by Kenneth Adams.

[Harri]

Hi Sam.  It is good to see a Non parent asking questions and hopefully reading this board.

My parents stayed together for the "sake of the kids".  both my uBPD mother and non- but- had- problems- of- his- own father let my brother and I know they (supposedly) put our needs first and wanted us to have an intact family.  It is only in adulthood that i can see the selfishness inherent is saying such a thing to us.  My mother was afraid or maybe aware of her (in)ability to work and would lose the comfort of a roof, food, etc if they divorced.  My father, who admitted to me about 15 years ago that he knew my mother had issues, was reluctant to leave as he would have been on his own and he was pretty damned inept aside from being able to get a paycheck.  Kids who have been told that their parents stayed together for them often feel guilty and responsible for the parents very obvious misery and difficulties.  I wonder now why, if my parents really thought they were doing the best for us kids and did it from a place of morals and values, why they had to announce it to us repeatedly and why they seem to expect our understanding and gratitude from us for doing so?  Isn't that their job?   Isn't that the most basic part of parenting?  I'm not saying kids should not be grateful, but I am saying that to expect it seems hypocritical to me.

Emotional incest is quite common even when the parents stay together.  It happened with both my mother and my father.  My brother and I were the emotional partner for both my mom and dad.  It was bad.  I am not sure it would have been any worse with my mother if my father had left her.

I understand that many dads *here on the boards* want to stay for the kids for genuine reasons and are actively working on learning skills and learning to parent in a way that teaches kids boundaries and how to protect themselves in addition to believing they can lessen the crazy that get put on the kids by staying.  That is certainly better than those of us who were abandoned by our non parent (either through divorce, emotionally, or due to their own inability to be a healthy parent).  I guess what I am saying is that the work you are doing will help your kids whether you stay married or not... .I just believe your kids will be better off with even a part-time healthy parent who can provide a stress free place of even a place where they can decompress and learn and experience healthy love, acceptance, discipline and boundaries.  So even 50/50 custody is better than living in a powder keg of an environment with a person who can turn crazy angry or crazy loving at the drop of a hat.

The thing to remember is that regardless, your kids will be affected and damaged by having a BPD parent.  the extent of the damage will obviously vary according to the degree of disordered behavior, how effective the non parent and other supportive and healthy individuals in their life are, and the childs own resilience.

Often times people will talk about how well the child is doing and how much they love the disordered parent.  Kids are programmed from birth to love their primary caregiver (primarily the mom) so their love and how attached the kids are means nothing at all.  Kids can and often do attach to their abuser. the people who hurt them and threaten them the most.  They have to in order to survive.  please do not let the myth of motherhood, a childs love for a parent, and the supposed need for a parent, no matter how disordered, to be in a childs life to blind you to the realities.  That so called love and attachment may be nothing more than survival, trauma bond, or the stockholm syndrome.  Far too many people seem to confuse those with love or impose their own wish for a loving mother, intact family, religious doctrine, etc on people or situations are not worthy.

I have read where some parents state that their presence deflects the BPD crazy away from the kids.  Maybe *a little bit*, but even witnessing violence, anger, constant depression, neediness, anxiety, etc, is damaging.  From my reading and presence on various forums and boards over about 12 years it is all too common to hear that a lot of the abuse the kids experienced was done when the non parent was at work, or out, etc.  It is also common to hear that the non parent will often have more difficulty with the pwBPD after the kids grow up and move out, as if the kids are the ones who acted as a shield for the non parent.  I know it was that way for me and I know and several others.  You can't be there 24/7 and even if you could you are human not a machine.  Besides, how do you protect a child from a waifish or hermit type mother with depression, their victim-mentality coupled with the world is a scary place mindset?  How do you protect a child from someone, who like my mother, would and could decimate you with just a shameful tone, or a 9 month silent treatment when you were 9 or keep her from flinching away when the split black child got too close or when the split white child fell from grace?  How do you explain to a child that black and white thinking is not good and that their mom is projecting their own pain and shame on them?  Protecting a kid is not just protecting them from physical or sexual abuse... .it is the emotional abuse and the mind games that do the most damage.  

Maybe when someone can explain to me how you can keep those things from happening to a child and keep a kid safe, I may give more consideration and have more respect for BS like  "Preserving the Family" , "presenting a united front in parenting" , and "not bad-mouthing the disordered parent".

To sum it up, I think the best you or anyone who has a kid with a pwBPD is damage control through a whole lot of love, support, love, boundaries, love, education... .just make sure you know what healthy love and parenting really are.

I wish you and yours peace and the very best of luck Sam.  

 

[Turkish]

Sam,  

It's God that you are asking these questions. You're considering all of the angles,  analyzing.  

Kids who have been told that their parents stayed together for them often feel guilty and responsible for the parents very obvious misery and difficulties.

I think this is very important.  Children should be told the truth, age appropriately, and this is more difficult in your case,  since you have quite a spread. On the other side,  they shouldn't also be told that you left for them,  even if this is partially true.  They might feel the need to rescue you, in a sense.  My personal opinion is that maybe this could be discussed of the kids are older,  if they bring it up,  but this is getting ahead of things.  Better to focus on the present.  

This is in the Family Law lessons.  Have you seen it?

3.02 | Is it better for the kids if I stay or leave?

T

[Notwendy]

I think the answer to this is as variable as pwBPD are. Some are able to hold a job and perform child care tasks. Some may just yell and have some rage issues, while others are seriously abusive.

I also think the answer to this involves the partner's values and what is the bottom line deal breaker for them. I have a couple: serial infidelity, significant dishonesty ( if I ask you if this dress makes me look fat the answer is "no"- no matter what, but if you repeatedly clean out the bank account- that's a problem). But my absolute deal breaker is how the kids are treated.

I tend to be a protective mama bear because of how I grew up with BPD mom and how her FOO and my father were so invested in protecting her, they allowed her to do anything she wanted - and refused to believe what we kids told them she did. We were subjected to emotional abuse on her part, then told it was because we didn't behave well- and we shouldn't cause her problems. So they were co-participants in this. Had they had boundaries around this, the problem may not have been allowed to happen for as long as it did.

My mother is also severely BPD in the emotional sense, but she has good social skills and in her day was very attractive ( and she still is for her age). She was raised in the era where a main goal for women was to get married and be a housewife. The problem is that this also masked her inability to hold a job if she needed to. She also isn't about to carry out the task of childcare and housework. I think she lacks "executive function"- the ability to mentally plan and carry out a task. I have seen her try to cook- and she seems lost, can't decide what pan to cook something in, how hot to set the oven. She compensated for that in several ways. Dad hired household help to do things, and once I was old enough, she would rage at me to do these things for her. So I just did them.

My parents stayed together. There were a number of reasons. As we got older, we'd ask my father why he put up with this. His answer was like yours- because she would get the kids in a custody case. But we eventually grew up and left home- and he didn't leave her. I think at this point he feared her ability to survive on her own and he was too honorable to do this to her. Although he didn't talk about her mental illness, I think at this point he realized it. Yet these reasons also eclipsed his own co-dependency and tendency to rescue her. We saw that our father was madly in love with her and was an equal participant in the issues between them. In between the drama, I believe they had some close times together, and I am glad that he had some happiness out of the relationship.

He was also willing to pay the emotional cost of this for her. When I set boundaries on her as an adult, she triangulated us. The cost of his relationship with her was his relationship with me. He chose her.

How did I fare? I think he did a pretty good job. He mainly raised us. We had what we needed materially. We kids did well in school. There were and are emotional issues- and as adults it is our task to work on those. But once we were independent adults we were able to leave and get away from the dysfunction we grew up with.

Which left the two of them. So, now, I will make the most important answer to "how will this affect the kids" with another question " how will this affect you" because ultimately, it will be just you and her together. Although it was hard to be a kid of a mother with BPD, it was also hard to watch how she treated my father when he got old and unable to do the things for her that he did. She wasn't accustomed to having to do things for herself. She didn't gain any parenting skills. So when Dad became less able to do, she took this personally. She assumed he was refusing. He wasn't refusing, he couldn't. Yet he was so invested in protecting her, he didn't allow people to come into the home to help him- like home health or meals on wheels. If a health care worker caught on to her dysfunction, they painted that worker black.

Staying for the kids was a noble reason, and I think, a real reason, but it wasn't the main reason. My father would have it no other way. I don't really think staying or leaving is the solution to co-dependency. IMHO, in the absence of abuse-whether or not one stays or leaves, working on that, demonstrating emotionally healthy relationship skills and boundaries- one being that child abuse is not tolerated-  is best for the kids in the long run.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Oh wow.  Thank you all for the responses. I know it probably brings up difficult feelings, and I really appreciate the openness - which is what I need.  You make great points, and the honesty carries across to me.  And I think you sense the catch-22 to staying or leaving.

I was, and am, held where I am because of the kids. I know that they suffer damage from mom's subtle influence, and to be fair, they suffered from my behavior years ago when I was really-pulled under, and depressed about marriage and life.  I've done a lot to fix me, and that's made a world of difference to the kids - I believe.  Getting distant (boundaries and literally moving to the basement) from my wife was a golden key to my mental health. I can somewhat imagine that for the kids to have a part-time house, with just dad and not mom, would be healthy and happy. Maybe I can be enough of a dad to "vaccinate" them from some of the toxicity.  I hope anyway.

A big problem is that, although times are changing for more equality, it is so often assumed that to get a divorce that means dad moves out and gets "visitation" - a term I refuse.  I'm not a visitor, I'm a dad, co-creator of the kids.  I can certainly demonstrate to a court that I'm involved, but, I couldn't convince anyone that mom is toxic to the kids. On the surface she's pious, high-functioning, and can act, persuade, and blame with the best of the BPD skill set.   Notwendy - this is well like you say that she can provide child care (not a good record for holding a job though)

I do not try to convince anyone, but, I wonder if anyone else would see any truth to what I feel about her internal nature.  I'm scared to lose more time with the kids.  Combined with a now vindictive shunned ex-wife - if I divorce - that could spell disaster to the kids' welfare.  I don't know if this is accurate, but I suspect a non who was a woman would have better odds of getting more custody, and more opportunity to nurture the kids towards a healthy life.  Whether that's true or not is irrelevant, but, I wonder what I could do to get at least a healthy share of custody.

I'm pretty thoroughly not co-dependent, but I am a very strong caretaker - tendencies which I try to manage.  I am certain that with no kids, I would burn the bridges and get divorced.  That makes me want to say that since I know I'm getting divorce when the kids are older, why wait to live life and see what happens?

Harri - thanks. I do see myself as "damage control" at times.  Your experience and wisdom is noted.  Thanks again.
Basenji - your magic wand analogy cuts like a knife.  That idea has great power.

Thanks again to all, and please keep commenting.  There's a lot for me to digest in here!
I'll do some thinking and feeling and follow up.

[flourdust]

If you're both high-functioning, then in more progressive states there may be a presumption of 50/50 custody. You should talk with an attorney to find out if that's likely in your state. Would 50/50 work for you?

[SamwizeGamgee]

50/50 would be golden for me.  I'm in a rural county (read: not progressive) and the lawyers give differing opinions on the outcome of custody. They're just getting over the Tender Years doctrine and mother knows best.  But, I do have hope that if I press for 50/50 it is a fight that might pay off.  She could cry and put on a sympathy act, or disregulate and melt down.

[Harri]

Hi again Sam!     Thanks for hearing me but I don't know if my words are wise or more bitter... .then again, is there a difference in this situation?  Hard to tell.  I realized I did not directly answer some of your questions and I want to give it a try.  I will say thanks to you tho for starting this thread.  It has helped me to see that I am the clearest I have ever been regarding what I think of my parents choices and how it affected me.  That in no way means I think I have an answer for what the right choice for others is, I just now know what I would have preferred and wanted if given the chance.

You asked:  What is it like? to have had parents that stayed together.    There was a weird coldness and a sense of just waiting for the next powder keg to go off.  The silence was tense and deafening.  My mother spent a lot of time sleeping, and it was on the couch in the living room or on the floor in the living area, causing me to have to step over her to get to the bathroom and my bedroom where I had to be quiet.  I was always tip-toeing around in an effort not to wake up her, not to set her off, not to be noticed

While there were a lot of fights and very scary rages from my mother, what still chills me the most is remembering her hostility and contempt which, when not raging, were wound tightly around all of us, holding us hostage in fear, shame and anxiety.

Watching and listening how my parents talked and interacted was strange and made it hard for me to have any sympathy or respect for my father.  My mother would snarl at him while he was eating (he was eating just fine) or when he would walk (he was 6'3" and stood tall but had knee and hip problems).  She would criticize how he breathed (somewhat loud and through his nose).  Those small criticisms said with a look or a facial expression are what chills me to remember.  My father would sigh, whine in return, cry, etc.  More often than not, he seemed relieved when all that energy was directed towards me.  I hated what my mother did to him but I was repulsed by the way he responded to it, and had far more respect for my mother than him.  In some ways I preferred the rages.

I mention that because it is so easy to focus on the obvious and loud, raging behaviors but it is really the smaller insidious, often waifish and hermitty behaviors that are harder to identify and defend against.  The look of contempt, calling out the non parents behavior as bad and 'educating the kids' that it is wrong and it is her duty as our mother to point that stuff out.  She would shread my father time and again (me too) both in the home and publicly and then take my brother and I aside and whine about how ashamed she was of him and how he did not compare to other husbands and fathers.  She did the same to me too, often holding court with my friends in attendance or telling them what a rotten kid I was because it was her duty to warn others about me. 

Parental alienation (PA) does not only happen in the case of divorce.  It can and often does happen when the parents stay together.  IMO, while the PA may ramp up after a divorce, it is more obvious and therefore easier to identify than when it happens in more subtle ways that are harder to pinpoint and occur on a daily basis.  You can't correct something you can barely see and you can't correct something when you are beaten down, deep in depression and so weary you will do anything to make it stop... .even allowing your own child to be a shield for you.  Besides, having time alone with the kids when they can relax will, again, IMO, give you a better chance of showing them the real you and allow them to come to their own conclusions.

Sam, I have followed your story as much as I can and I know how you have changed and grown and worked so hard to get healthy.  Your kids are lucky to have you.  Remember, my father had his own issues and both of my parents were from a much older generation so take what makes sense and leave the rest.  Try as I might, right now I can't seem to write anything more than cautionary tales for you here.

 

[Notwendy]

I think to wonder about the road not taken ( had my dad left mom) would be speculation. I am sure there would be pros and cons to that path as well. I think that this is a decision you could only make in the moment with the situation you have at hand.

I don't know if you had consulted a lawyer about what your custody situation might be.

Is your wife a danger to the kids? My mother isn't capable of caring for any dependent creature and she is a danger. That may have factored into my father's decision, but still, he did leave us with her. He had to work. My parents had child care when we were little ( thank goodness) but as teens, we were alone with her. She wasn't looking out for us, it was more the opposite- we were the "adults" in the home. By then, we knew how to cook, clean, and take care of ourselves.

Then there is your wife and her life. Is it fair to her to stay in a marriage that you know will end. Is it fair to you? I recall hearing my father say something about leaving while she was still young and attractive and could get a husband. She had no trouble doing that. But it would have been harder for her to do that in middle age in her era. He wan't getting any younger either- although he wasn't looking for another wife, as he got older, I did wish he had a companion who could have been supportive to him. But that was my wish, maybe not his.

This is my story, and not all pwBPD are as low functioning as my mother, but by my preteens, I think I was basically raising myself. In my FOO, I also took on the role of emotional caretaker and co-dependent to her.

Another question is that- a single person is likely to find a partner. If divorced, your kids may have another parent in the custodial home. That may or many not be a good thing for the kids. Yet also keep in mind that if there were to be any abuse, social services could get involved and you may get full custody if that were to happen.

I think a lawyer is in the best position to address these questions.

[Panda39]

I agree with others here the decision is yours to make based on your particular situation.

I am also not the child of a BPDmom, I'm here because of my SO's uBPDxw and they share two daughters.  I am also divorced from an alcoholic and was in a co-dependent marriage.

Is staying in a dysfunctional relationship hard?  Is leaving a dysfunctional relationship hard?

Choose your "hard".

I come down on the "leave" side of things. 

In my own case I stayed married 20years because financially I felt I had no other option but to stay.  I did my best to provide as much normalcy as I could for my son... .but that didn't change the fact that his dad was drunk in his basement man-cave, or that he would become an argumentative mean drunk, or that he would drive drunk. 

Having drunk dad is not very conducive to developing a bond with him, or having your friends over to your house.  After I left my marriage my son who tried to stay under the radar in our intact family began to express anxiety and has had to deal with and see a therapist for social anxiety.  He is very anti drugs and alcohol so he's not modeling his dad... .so that leaves my example which was codependency up until I left 6 years ago.  I don't know if or when this will appear in his life. 

My leaving was a catalyst for all of us to leave a dysfunctional dynamic and things improved for everyone. 

My ex lost his son, his house, his wife, had his 3rd DUI, went to work smelling of alcohol, lost his job, lost his retirement to pay for attorneys related to the DUI... .he hit rock bottom.  He finally acknowledged he had a problem and has been sober about 5 years now.

I was happier, healthier, spending time with friends and not living with the dread of coming home to drunk man... .hoping he was passed out instead of looking for a fight.

My son was free of all the tension in the house and saw that people can change for the better.  He saw his dad every other weekend for a while but it dropped off by their choice... .there is no real bond between the two of them they are friendly but don't see each other much.

My SO and his daughters went through the wringer.  The divorce took 2 years, involved the kids spying on dad, uBPDex using the kids to make false allegations of abuse, parental alienation, evictions, a missed year in school etc... .

I think both girls understood their mom had problems, but never thought she would turn on them and she did in big ways.  Both girls voted with their feet and moved in with dad full-time, both are doing well in school, 1 daughter continues therapy, the other one is closing in on finishing college and moving out on her own. The stability of living with their dad the last two years has been incredibly helpful for both girls.  I've seen them show resiliency, develop healthier friendships, and healthier ways of coping when things get hard.   They know they have a save place to live, that dad will take care of their needs (with no mind games), and they can rely on him (no false promises).

D20 is very low contact with her mother and D15 will talk with her on the phone/text but doesn't see her in person very often.  Each is having the relationship with her that they feel comfortable with and their dad and I support that. 

You have my 2 cents.

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks for everything.
This thread has cracked open some tough feelings for myself. I am on good behavior all the time at home, and that makes it easier for my wife to regulate, and i think she hasn't really scared the kids for a while now.  I know that if she blows up again, I'll have my witness right there that it's time to go. 

But, here I am, still in an unhappy marriage for almost 20 year because I don't want to hurt her feelings. 

I've got a lot more thinking on this to do, and I'll post again later.  But, I quickly wanted to thank everyone for sharing.

[Basenji]

But, here I am, still in an unhappy marriage for almost 20 year because I don't want to hurt her feelings.  

Maybe that's the real issue?

For all of us who have been challenged by a relationship with a borderline person... .we only really take control once we have deconstructed our emotional response of guilt, and stop being driven by the risk of "hurting their feelings"!

I sent my ageing 85 year old mother power of attorney documents to fill in at her leisure - she has refused to even consider setting up such a facility (and in the UK the papers need to be lodged month ahead of any possible trigger for use since they take weeks to be processed): when I suggested to her best friend that it would be prudent for mother to set up the power of attorney for the future I was told that I had "hurt" her by sending her the papers!

If I do something that mother doesn't like she goes on about how hurtful I have been! She brings up events from decades ago and whines on about how hurtful I was at that time... .

Clearly, we can't progress if we are driven by a concern about hurting a borderline through our well considered and otherwise reasonable behaviours and actions.

We are going to "hurt" and disappoint the borderline whatever we do!

We cannot be driven by such a concern: it validates the negative cycle, it promotes our entrapment, it provides yet more time for the insidious psychological damage to fester in ourselves and other affected family members!

We can only break free by detaching ourselves emotionally from the borderline, and stepping outside of the gameplay, and being sufficiently self aware to recognise when our decisions are logically robust versus tainted by emotional / psychological intrusion.

May I also suggest a further point of view - a decision to leave will likely have to be made irrespective of the perceptions of the children. It may just have to be that they will only really understand when they are older and wiser. Any possible temptation to seek validation from them may need to be tempered against the need to put their welfare first and explain later... .when my father left I assumed he was the bad guy... .then when I travelled alone for 3 months as an 18 year before going to college the distance allowed me to see that in fact it had been mother who had been divisive all along and my opinions swung completely in favour of my father... .

(... .yet, father did nothing to protect me from my uBPD mother and when I look back on events as a 54 year old (my father died 2 years ago) I realise that much of my anger towards him was because he did nothing top stop the abusive behaviours and when I sought help from him he denied there was a problem).

Be strong! 

 

[lpheal]

I just want to share I am struggling with the same question, and I really appreciate all of the responses people have contributed here. I know what I need to do, but I'm now trying to figure out how and when.

I guess I also want some idea as to what could happen, so once I make the decision I keep moving forward and don't get pulled back in to the same situation.

[Notwendy]

Clearly, we can't progress if we are driven by a concern about hurting a borderline through our well considered and otherwise reasonable behaviours and actions.

We are going to "hurt" and disappoint the borderline whatever we do


Exactly. I also agree that some decisions - the kids will not likely fully understand until they are adults.

I loved my father. When he died, I felt orphaned. I have a mother, but that mother has not acted like a parent to me, so I don't think I know what it is like to have a "mommy" but I did have a "daddy".

Despite the fact that he was co-dependent with her, he really was a good dad to me. But I don't know if he had to live with us to have been that dad.

For those of you who are concerned about time with kids, I know that pwBPD vary, but my mother had little tolerance for time with kids. I understand that in a divorce situation, the parent may stick to custody divisions in order to "punish" the pwBPD. My parents were not divorced- but weekends and school breaks were not tolerated by my mother, so it was dad who got us out of the house ( she stayed there). During longer breaks we stayed with his FOO. Those were the best times.

Dad took us to the zoo, the park, out to eat, helped with homework, consoled me when I experienced my first boyfriend break up, helped me get ready for my wedding ( usually a mom does that but my mother was off somewhere). Dad was also a hands on grampa to my kids- doing similar things with them- reading bedtime stories, taking them to the park, playing games with them.

I think it is important to have these kinds of experiences as a dad. Yes, a lot of parenting is routine. Kids aren't likely to remember that the great dinner they ate started with a trip to the grocery store- but they will understand it later. I think one can be a hands on parent, or not - whether one lives with the kids or not. My mother was home every day, but not engaged with us as a mother.

There are many reasons for divorce. Some dads divorce over another woman, and in that case, there is competition for time with the kids. Mom is going to be BPD no matter what. However, as a father, you do have a choice of what kind of father to be. Even in divorce- do you choose to live close to the kids, be available to pick them up after school, take them on weekends, school breaks, and put off dating until they are older? That may factor in to whether the decision to stay or leave impacts the kids in a negative way.

[Panda39]

But, here I am, still in an unhappy marriage for almost 20 year because I don't want to hurt her feelings. 

This may be partially your own nature, or the way you were raised... .to be polite... .but I would also ask you to consider that in the last 20 years of marriage that this is what you've been conditioned to do. This is part of the dysfunctional dynamic... .Walking on Eggshells.

This dynamic can have its effect.  Both of my SO's daughters can be emotionally needy, why? IMO because the entire family was focused on the emotional needs of their uBPDmom, no wonder they are emotionally needy when they came in 2nd at best.

Why are your feelings and the feelings of your children less important than hers?

Of course divorce is painful, it is in the best of circumstances all any of us can to is try to be as kind as we can when we can, but it is a time to put your needs and the needs of your children in the forefront. 

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

Yes.  I just can't articulate the "abuse" I've suffered as well as so many others.  My wife is what I think of as a subtle abuser, nothing so flagrant as many stories here.  It leaves me wondering how bad it really is for them, or me. 

However, thanks to some of the thinking here and on this specific topic, I am refreshing my ideas to not stay married for the kids' sake, but to maybe get divorced (for my sake) - and thereby make things better for the kids. 

I note that I didn't say divorce for the kids - whether I stay or go, I want to not think of them as the reason.  I feel that shifts responsibility for a problem they didn't ask for, and didn't create.  I think that's a healthy way to look at it.

And Panda - You've hit on something I want to think about more.  My kids have episodes of highly emotional drama, especially my 12 yo son and 15 yo daughter.  I dismiss a portion of it as normal teenage angst, but, I can see a connection of having a mom that is totally self-absorbed / overwhelmed / sacred and a dad who is spread thin and who, in the past, could barely keep his own act together because of mom's needs and unbalance.  Sure, who's tending the kids?  Light bulb moment for me.  Thanks.

[Notwendy]

By 12 I was an adult in the house, yet she was the parent and I had to listen to her. By the time a kid is a teen, they have a pretty good idea of what is appropriate behavior and what isn't, and "listening" to a parent who behaved like an out of control 4 year old didn't make sense to me, yet, I had to.

But something else happened that I think was not appropriate at all was that, my mother looked to me for advice and as a confidant- and she had no boundaries about what was appropriate to discuss. So, if you didn't guess this already- she discussed her sex life with my father with me. I was about 14 when this started.

My father would never do such a thing, and don't know if he was aware of it but he must have had some clue as I did ask him some strange questions about what I heard from mom. Despite the fact that my parents had painted me black- as a problem teen at home, I was actually a pretty good kid. Yes, I am sure I had emotional outbursts at home considering what was going on there.

At school, it was like a double life- good student, well liked, participated in school clubs/activities, college bound. Nobody would have had a clue that anything was going on at home. School and friends were my happy place.

Life at home was all about mom. Mom's needs, mom's moods, mom's feelings, keeping mom happy 24/7. Dad had to work, and so we were left to be mom's emotional caretakers. Mom was the center of the universe. My sibs and I say we were more like accessories to our parents, not children. If we were useful to them, they approved of us, if not, we were raged at and painted black.

I don't know if this is pertinent to you, but after decades of this, this became a way of life for them. My father used to fight her- they would have huge arguments, but eventually he chose a path of compliance. You mentioned staying for the kids, which he said he did too. But I think also, we were a reality check for them- which both antagonized their situation- since we didn't buy into her behavior- and also kept some perspective in the house. Once we grew up, it was him and her and IMHO, they became even more enmeshed. Although I always saw him as the saner one, I also question that perspective. He was all about her, they may have been the same people. I know he loved me as a kid. As an adult, his relationship with me was contingent on whether I complied with her wishes or not. Eventually she tried to do to my teen kids what she did with me- make them her confidants. No way would I allow that. I set boundaries. This along with some disagreements over his care when he was older caused friction for them- she painted me black, he went along with it. By the time he died, I think I was disowned. This left me wondering if we kids even mattered to them as individuals or if, it was all about her always and as kids we didn't know any different.

One wonders about the road not taken, so if they had divorced, there would likely be things I would have wished were different. He may have had time with us- without her in the picture, and so focused on us instead of the issues and drama between them. I had glimpses of this in college. He sometimes had business trips near my school and would take me out to lunch or dinner. One on one with my Dad was really special. This was before cell phones when, even if he was out with me, she called him every 5 minutes.

So- your future children may not feel the same as I do - if you stay or leave- but what would I say to my dad if her were a younger man? I would say- Dad do what is best for you, so I could have that dad- the authentic dad- not the overwhelmed dad he was when mom was around demanding his attention. "best for dad" could have been a number of decisions- whether he stayed or left- but I do think self care is an important concept.

But I would also caution him about any other relationships. I would tell him that the fact that he chose someone like my mother would likely mean he was attracted to this kind of relationship. If he replaced her with someone else and they had similar issues, then divorcing my mother would have only added more drama to our family. Resources like we have now were not available back then, but if they were , I would hope he would stay single for a while- get some therapy- and hopefully make a different choice if he remarried.

[Basenji]

However, thanks to some of the thinking here and on this specific topic, I am refreshing my ideas to not stay married for the kids' sake, but to maybe get divorced (for my sake) - and thereby make things better for the kids. 

I've been trying to think through how I would make a decision where there is no obvious pathway... .so just ideas here... .

Is it possible to build some sort of logical framework?

There are basically three parties - you, your partner, the kids.

You want an improved outcome for all of you in an ideal world: a"win" for each party.

The problem is that it is hard to see how to arrive at a win-win-win situation. Also the options may be inter-dependent and the outcomes unpredictable.

So you may need to prioritise... .for example:

1. WIN for you
2. WIN for the kids
3. WIN for the partner

You may have to come first (as already discussed) since that empowers you to deliver a win for the kids. Arguably the kids' needs supersede those of your wife since they need to be insulated from the negative impacts of having a borderline parent. You partner may be in third spot by default, but that doesn't mean you can't find ways to seek to help her too (although if you do leave home, abandonment issues may surface with gusto).

So... .goal one: how do you achieve a win for yourself... .each option has a benefit and a cost and possible filter down effects on achieving goal two and three.

For example, maybe it goes (just hypothetically here) ... .benefits of leave home include it may improve your happiness, ability to look after the kids... costs may include provoking an abandonment response in your partner which will rock the boat when trying to work together for the welfare of the kids

Goal two: how you achieve a win for the kids... .if you leave you may get the benefits of the opportunity to create a safe and happy environment for them, the family focus can shift to their welfare (rather than the borderline parent's) where arguably it should be, since you have the win of being happier from goal one you can provide for their needs... .costs may include having to fight for greater custody / access, having to liaise with a borderline person who will may have a strong reaction to the change you are creating, having to accept that the kids are not old enough to understand / validate your decisions just yet, etc.

Goal three: how do you achieve a win for your partner... .a change in family circumstances may provide the breakthrough crisis point for your partner to have to confront her reality and seek professional help (accepting this may very hard for her), you might attempt to set in place a network of support for her (although responsibility for her welfare should lie with her), be a facilitator of change... .costs may include the risk of re-entering a cycle of entrapment, your partner not being willing to accept her condition or be prepared for change, etc.

I have no idea if this helps at all... .obviously, the examples are entirely hypothetical and may or may not apply for your situation.

I do, however, often find that when faced with complex decisions it helps to map out the goals / options / outcomes. I'm a visual person so I will take a piece of paper and start drawing out the links between people, or issues (a "mind map". I often get friends who have a problem to do the same. Sometimes it helps to untangle the clashing ideas that spin round and round in the brain!

Hopefully the above is of some help and not misplaced!   

[SamwizeGamgee]

These comments are all great.  I did get a little clarity a little while ago when I wrote down what I see as the four paths in my decision. And that felt good being able to see it and work each step.  My four paths are
1. Stay indefinitely
2. Stay short term
3. Work collaboratively on separation
4. Leave unilaterally through preemptive strike divorce
The fifth would be to achieve a happy marriage and enjoy it, but, time has taught enough to me to not look at that.  Each path has advantages, and some profound disadvantages.
I will start charting a mind-map.  Thanks.
@notwendy, your experience gives me glimpses into my kids life.  
... .and darn it, that road not taken idea gives one pause.  I wonder how much damage is done already. How much can I change for the better?  And how?

[Notwendy]

Kids' response to a parent with BPD is as variable as pw BPD are. Certain things like gender, birth order, gender of BPD parent, and the different roles taken on ( golden child, scapegoat) and the general resiliency of the child all influence how this affects a child.

I will say that none of us kids are really in a bad mental state thankfully. We have jobs, friends, families and we get along. If I could credit what led to our resilience, it was that we had other role models in our lives and the positive attention we got from my dad when he could give it.  My mother was not interested in child care. School breaks were a strain on her- having kids home all day was miserable for her. My father's family welcomed us in these times and we stayed with them. Dad's extended family and his parents gave us a reprieve from the drama and were loving adults in our lives.

Having this for your kids could be family, but it could be a church group, scouts, summer camp, school clubs- any group where there are solid role models and leaders that can set examples for kids, and who care about them.

Loving stable adults can do a lot to mitigate the effects of a BPD parent. Yet adult children need to take on the responsibility for getting help. It doesn't help me now to blame my parents for anything- I have sought out counseling and 12 step groups to work on my own emotional growth. So one lesson for anyone- is that it is OK to seek help and that emotional growth is a good path to take.

I am thinking one thing you can do now is set that example by doing this yourself. My kids are aware of how I grew up. I try not to badmouth my mother to them but I have explained BPD to them and taught them how to interact with her. They see that I attend co-dependency meetings. I have always taught them that they can do this too if they ever feel they want to. I didn't think keeping family secrets did any good- or hiding that parents may need help themselves, so I am open- with boundaries of course as they are kids- about the fact that my mother is a challenge to me and that I take charge of working on myself to deal with that.