Why now? It has been a year

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I am so irritated with ex. I kicked him out a year ago. It has been a year almost to the day. When he first left, he showed no remorse. He stayed with his mother in another state for almost a month. When he came back to town, he was bragging to me about finding the love of his life and showing me her pictures and telling me how great she was and how much she inspired him. I did none of those things for him. At that point, we had been married for 17 friggin' years. It was like none of our history together mattered. It was as though the kids and I didn't exist and all he could talk about or think about was his latest love interest.

When I kicked him out, he didn't think about staying around to help with the kids. He left the state and I was left to figure out child care for the kids so that I could go to work. I am so very proud of my kids for how great they have handled all of this. They really stepped up and helped take up the slack. He seemed oblivious to it all.

Up until the last month, he expressed no real remorse. He didn't seem to care about much of anything. He didn't ask about the finances or how I was managing to get all of the bills paid or how I was getting groceries. None of that mattered to him. During that whole time, he was living rent free with a friend of his from his sex addict group. When his room mate was arrested, he was kicked out and lost his place to live. He did get a job and now has his own apartment and is starting to get on his feet.

The problem that I am having is that NOW, a year later, he is telling me how much he regrets everything he did. He is telling me how much he misses me and the kids. He is acting "responsible" and making sure that he gives me a portion of every paycheck he gets. He is taking some initiative on other practical matters involving shared financial responsibility. And, he is going to counseling.

I am glad that he is being more responsible. I am also hopping mad. Losing his family didn't seem to phase him a bit. His response was to go find somebody that inspired him. Losing his pedophile friend sure did seem to bother him and light a fire under his butt. Before anybody thinks I am name calling, he chose to live with somebody that was a registered sex offender. I am not going to go into any more detail but it baffles me why a man with FOUR daughters would choose to associate with somebody like that. I wouldn't let the kids visit him unless he came to our house. that didn't bother him. He perfectly understood why I limited his access to the kids and he was totally on board with it. He would rather live rent free with a convicted felon than have access to his kids?

I realize that I am rambling a bit. I am angry and it feels like his attempts to be nice and to be responsibly are adding to my anger. I keep wondering, "Why now? Why couldn't he have said and done some of these things years ago?" I cannot and will not ever take him back or even consider doing anything more than being a coparent. I don't even know how to react to him reaching out to me so much over "practical" matters. He didn't care about this stuff 3 months ago or 6 months ago or a year ago. It is infuriating.

[vortex of confusion]

I am so irritated with ex. I kicked him out a year ago. It has been a year almost to the day. When he first left, he showed no remorse. He stayed with his mother in another state for almost a month. When he came back to town, he was bragging to me about finding the love of his life and showing me her pictures and telling me how great she was and how much she inspired him. I did none of those things for him. At that point, we had been married for 17 friggin' years. It was like none of our history together mattered. It was as though the kids and I didn't exist and all he could talk about or think about was his latest love interest.

When I kicked him out, he didn't think about staying around to help with the kids. He left the state and I was left to figure out child care for the kids so that I could go to work. I am so very proud of my kids for how great they have handled all of this. They really stepped up and helped take up the slack. He seemed oblivious to it all.

Up until the last month, he expressed no real remorse. He didn't seem to care about much of anything. He didn't ask about the finances or how I was managing to get all of the bills paid or how I was getting groceries. None of that mattered to him. During that whole time, he was living rent free with a friend of his from his sex addict group. When his room mate was arrested, he was kicked out and lost his place to live. He did get a job and now has his own apartment and is starting to get on his feet.

The problem that I am having is that NOW, a year later, he is telling me how much he regrets everything he did. He is telling me how much he misses me and the kids. He is acting "responsible" and making sure that he gives me a portion of every paycheck he gets. He is taking some initiative on other practical matters involving shared financial responsibility. And, he is going to counseling.

I am glad that he is being more responsible. I am also hopping mad. Losing his family didn't seem to phase him a bit. His response was to go find somebody that inspired him. Losing his pedophile friend sure did seem to bother him and light a fire under his butt. Before anybody thinks I am name calling, he chose to live with somebody that was a registered sex offender. I am not going to go into any more detail but it baffles me why a man with FOUR daughters would choose to associate with somebody like that. I wouldn't let the kids visit him unless he came to our house. that didn't bother him. He perfectly understood why I limited his access to the kids and he was totally on board with it. He would rather live rent free with a convicted felon than have access to his kids?

I realize that I am rambling a bit. I am angry and it feels like his attempts to be nice and to be responsibly are adding to my anger. I keep wondering, "Why now? Why couldn't he have said and done some of these things years ago?" I cannot and will not ever take him back or even consider doing anything more than being a coparent. I don't even know how to react to him reaching out to me so much over "practical" matters. He didn't care about this stuff 3 months ago or 6 months ago or a year ago. It is infuriating.

[vortex of confusion]

I think the worst part of it all is that he is acting like I should be jumping for joy. It is the same "good boy" thing that he has done for years. It is like I am suddenly supposed to forget the last year.

The sad part is that I feel like I am being a mean b***h because I am not praising him or being thankful to him. I ask him a yes or no question and he starts going on and on and I cut him off with stuff like, "Stop, I don't want an explanation. I want a yes or a no. Did you pay that bill?"

Because we have kids together, I don't have much choice about dealing with him. I limit my contact as much as possible. Even though it has been a year with him out of the house, I still feel my body tense and I get these horrible feelings of anxiety when dealing with him. I wonder when these feelings of tension and anxiety will go away.

[jhkbuzz]

Wow, vortex. I've followed your story for a long time. This is something. I'm not sure what, though.

I have all sorts of random thoughts. That you're not done processing your anger. That something about the way he's "manned up" feels manipulative to you - as though you're supposed to respond to all his positive behavior with ego strokes for him - and you deeply resent it. That you're still trying to make sense of a mental illness, forgetting that his rapid changes of behavior towards you are part of the illness.  That he sounds like a young child - no forethought, no planning, no real empathy. That your outrage is like mine was - the "little girl" inside me who wept and wept and wept - bewildered and devastated that someone who said they loved me could treat me with such utter contempt. 

A year is not a long time at all. I was still messy at a year.

Keep your boundaries strong; take care of you.   

[vortex of confusion]

Thank you  jhkbuzz!

That you're not done processing your anger.

I don't think that I am anywhere close to being done processing my anger. I feel like I am just now to a point where I can say with completely certainty that I am angry. I am hopping mad. I feel cheated. I feel hurt. I feel a million different feelings all rolled into one.

That something about the way he's "manned up" feels manipulative to you

Yes, it feels very manipulative. I know how he has operated in the past. When he finally gets around to doing something positive, he will use that as leverage to say, "See, I am doing all of this stuff that you said I wasn't doing." And, I know that he will use it to gain sympathy. He will tell people all about the great things he is doing now and will make sure that everybody knows that I am still not letting him come back home and that he is just a victim.

The other day, he had dinner at my house because he wanted to visit with the kids. I had a salad and he remarked, "Oh, that is really good salad. I got some of that at the food pantry when I went." I know how he operates. He gave the kids and I his last dime and then went around telling everybody that he was giving everything to us and was eating at the food pantry.

When I brought up the fact that he chose to live with a registered sex offender, his response was, "I didn't have any other choice." At one point I told him, "Um, you had other choices. You could have come back from your mother's house and treated the kids and I with respect. Instead, you came home flaunting some other woman in my face and telling me how great she was and how horrible I am."

And he has to remind me all the time how he won't let anybody say anything bad about me. Like I am supposed to find that reassuring or something. I don't even know how it came up but he said something about his ex room mate bashing me every time he communicated with me while he lived there. I didn't even ask all of the burning questions that were going through my head. I just let it go.

as though you're supposed to respond to all his positive behavior with ego strokes for him - and you deeply resent it.

Oh yes, I deeply resent it. I think it is a bunch of hogwash that he wants to "man up" at his own discretion and on his own timeline. And I am supposed to jump for joy. Now that he has manned up, I can hear it coming. I know him well enough to know that at some point he is going to use this against me to prove that I was impatient and I just didn't give him enough time. I have heard it all before. He loved to tell me how impatient I am. I find the idea that I am impatient quite laughable.

Yet, I still feel like he has no clue how much I have had to endure. He has no friggin' clue how stressful it has been to work two jobs, care for 4 kids, and keep all of the bills paid, along with food on the table. Where are my ego strokes? Where are my pats on the back? Where is the acknowledgement for me and my kids? The kids have had to go without a lot in the last year.

That you're still trying to make sense of a mental illness, forgetting that his rapid changes of behavior towards you are part of the illness.  That he sounds like a young child - no forethought, no planning, no real empathy. That your outrage is like mine was - the "little girl" inside me who wept and wept and wept - bewildered and devastated that someone who said they loved me could treat me with such utter contempt.

Yes! There is definitely a little girl inside me screaming, "Why couldn't he love me? How could he do this to me? How could he do this to his kids?" I have started seeing a counselor. I am hoping that it will help.

A year is not a long time at all. I was still messy at a year.

Thank you for this! I feel like I should be done and over with it by now. Most days are okay. It is just those times when I have to deal with him. It has been a year and I still get physical symptoms from being around him. When he visited the other day, I felt like I had been hit by a bus. After he left, I started feeling fine.

Keep your boundaries strong; take care of you.  

It is becoming easier and easier to keep my boundaries strong. When he starts his crap, I will cut him off. He has tried guilt tripping me to which I start asking him about the things that he did. I ask him point blank: "When I was sick and crying in the bathtub and throwing up and telling you I didn't want to do it, did you or did you not rub my back with such love and reassure me that I would have fun and that I would enjoy being with another man?" To which he responds, "yeah, I did that."

There were other completely heinous things that he has done that he likes to forget about when guilt tripping me. I turn it around on him. I can't let him suck me back into the fog with his good boy act. He is soo good at the whole good boy thing.

[jhkbuzz]

I'm headed out the door - but a couple of quick questions:

1.  Are you divorced? If not, do you hold out any hope of reconciliation? If you don't want to reconcile, are you planning to divorce him? If so, when? If not, why not?

2.  Do you HAVE to have all these interactions with him? I understand that you have children, but inviting him over for dinner isn't something I think I'd do. You are all "churned up" because, perhaps, you are interacting with him more than you need to?... .

Just some more random thoughts.

I had a grown (step) daughter by the time my ex and I split up - so I can maintain that relationship without any contact with my ex.

Your posting made me think about the conditions under which I'd agree to have casual or friendly contact with my ex. Honestly, there aren't any. Sometimes I wish I could be the "bigger" person because I know she has significant mental health issues... .but I guess I'm not wishing hard enough.    I have no respect left for her - and I can't imagine how distasteful it would be for me to interact with her on a regular basis.

And I say this with very little anger - we broke up a long time ago. Just the thought of it... .yuck.

[vortex of confusion]

1.  Are you divorced? If not, do you hold out any hope of reconciliation? If you don't want to reconcile, are you planning to divorce him? If so, when? If not, why not?

No, I have not filed for divorce yet. There is no hope and no desire for reconciliation. I am done. I do plan to divorce him. My New Year's resolution for the year is to either be divorced or in the process of divorce by the end of the year. I am not in a rush to divorce yet because he has recently gotten a job and is getting insurance for me and the kids. I need to get some stuff checked out so I am holding off a little on starting legal proceedings. It is all about practical matters.

2.  Do you HAVE to have all these interactions with him? I understand that you have children, but inviting him over for dinner isn't something I think I'd do. You are all "churned up" because, perhaps, you are interacting with him more than you need to?... .

That is a good question. I do try to keep interactions to a bare minimum. Right now, he visits the kids at my house. For the last couple of weeks, he has seen them once a week for 6 or 7 hours. I try to hide in my room or keep myself busy doing other things so they can visit. The kids have to eat so I make dinner for them and whomever else is here.

I have had to have more interaction with him than usual due to stuff like taxes, insurance, and other practical matters. I don't think that is what has me churned up. What has me churned up is the fact that it feels like HE is looking for more opportunities and more excuses to contact me and interact with me. Unless it is something that needs a response, I have been avoiding responding to him. I don't engage him unless I feel like it needs a response. He might text to verify what time he is coming over to see the kids.

Really, I feel like I had a grip on keeping contact pretty low. And, when I was in contact with him, I feel like I had a bit of a grip. What is throwing me is the fact that he is contacting me so much more than he had been and is trying to contact me about things that he hasn't given two craps about for the last year. Now, all of the sudden, it feels like he is caring more and is trying to contact me more and I am having to erect stronger boundaries and NOT get sucked into believing that anything is different.

I had a grown (step) daughter by the time my ex and I split up - so I can maintain that relationship without any contact with my ex.

My kids are too young to maintain a relationship with their dad without me being involved. The youngest is only 8 and the oldest is almost 16.

Your posting made me think about the conditions under which I'd agree to have casual or friendly contact with my ex. Honestly, there aren't any. Sometimes I wish I could be the "bigger" person because I know she has significant mental health issues... .but I guess I'm not wishing hard enough.    I have no respect left for her - and I can't imagine how distasteful it would be for me to interact with her on a regular basis.

If I didn't have 4 kids with him, I would be very content if I didn't ever have to deal with him again. Since we have 4 kids together, avoiding all contact is not a realistic option until the kids are older. Even then, I suspect that we will still have to have contact if the kids ever get married or have a big event in their lives where they would want both their mom and their dad there. It isn't really about being the bigger person. For me, it is about trying to minimize the damage and hurt for the kids. They didn't ask for any of this. The least I can do for them is give them a little bit of choice with regards to visiting with their dad. They prefer for him to come here. Up until recently, that was the only option because he was living with a registered sex offender.

If they feel better visiting dad here, then I am going to try to work with that as long as everyone is okay with it. I know that I don't have to do that. I know that there are other options. I could force the kids to go to dad's new apartment. I could leave while he is here. The kids aren't quite ready to go hang out at dad's. I do go to the store and find errands to run when he is here. In the past, I would occasionally go away for the weekend and let him spend the weekend with the kids.

Overall, I feel like it is a work in progress. Some days, I feel like I am doing great and have it figured out. Other days, like when he starts finding all sorts of practical reasons to contact me, I get worked up. I know I am not crazy to be done with him. I know what he has done to me. I know how much his rejection has hurt me and the kids. Yet, when he contacts me so much and acts so responsible and caring, I find myself wondering if I imagined the last couple of years. It definitely has me questioning my reality at times.

[jhkbuzz]

I remember at the beginning of my breakup I felt like I was slightly insane because I had SUCH a hard time reconciling that the wonderful, funny, sweet caring person I fell in love with was the very same cold, callous, lying, cheating person who broke my heart. It was like I could only hold one of those "personas" in my mind at once - I couldn't pull it all together and say, yes, ALL of it is rolled up into this one person, this person who I fell in love with; this person who crushed my heart; this person who I now feel as though I never really knew. All a single person, capable of such tenderness and such emotional abuse. It took me about a year to reconcile all of this.

I think the "tug" you feel is that you see the "good" persona again - the one you fell in love with, the one you wish could stay. I understand. I don't know how my heart might sting if my ex came around and was that "good persona" again. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get sucked in, but, hey, you never know. I'd have to be on my guard, too.

So I understand your difficulty with young children and your anger and your heart tugging... .it just sucks and its hard. But I think you're on the right track. Don't respond to his fishing expeditions - it's manipulative on his part. Continue to do what you can for your children, as you have been.

Have you considered doing a simple, calm, casually detached, "Just so we're very clear - I have no interest in ever rekindling our relationship. Ever. You are the father of my children and I will do my best to help you maintain a r/s with them - but that's where it stops."

?

I wonder if part of the reason for his manipulations is that he senses you're not completely emotionally detached. Or that he thinks he still has a chance.

[vortex of confusion]

I think the "tug" you feel is that you see the "good" persona again - the one you fell in love with, the one you wish could stay. I understand. I don't know how my heart might sting if my ex came around and was that "good persona" again.

It is interesting that you point this out. Being around him is painful whether he is being "good" or not. It is like having a scab ripped off. It friggin' hurts.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get sucked in, but, hey, you never know. I'd have to be on my guard, too.

In all honesty, I don't think it is possible for me to get sucked in. I do have brief moments where I think of things through rosy glasses. That rarely last very long. When I am around him, everything about him sets me on my tin ear. I find myself wondering all sorts of things. Has he always been this annoying? Am I painting him black? What in the world is going on inside of me? Why can't I even look at him without feeling a bit queasy?

His mannerisms are that of a child. I don't recall him being that way. Or, if he was, I didn't think much of it. When we got together, we were both rather young so I may not have noticed and just got used to it. I don't know.

Have you considered doing a simple, calm, casually detached, "Just so we're very clear - I have no interest in ever rekindling our relationship. Ever. You are the father of my children and I will do my best to help you maintain a r/s with them - but that's where it stops."

That is my broken record these days. I have told him repeatedly that I am done. I have said it in very unemotional, non charged ways. "I cannot be with you. We are not healthy for each other and you have done some very hurtful things. I will do everything that I can to support you so that you can have a relationship with the kids. Right now, I don't even want to be your friend and being around you is difficult for me. I do want to get a divorce soon but I am willing to wait a little while so we can sort out the practical stuff." I have said that several different times in several different ways.

I wonder if part of the reason for his manipulations is that he senses you're not completely emotionally detached. Or that he thinks he still has a chance.

Honestly, I don't think it is about me at all. I think it boils down to the fact that he is living alone and doesn't have anybody else to dump his stuff on. When he had a room mate, he was very detached and made little or no attempts to be "good". He would tell me about how he would talk to his room mate. Now, he doesn't have a room mate or somebody on the side so he is reaching out to me. I don't feel like it is genuinely because he misses me or the kids. I feel like it is because he wants/needs somebody and I just happen to be his target at the moment. I wonder how long he will be "good" without results before he finds somebody or something else.

[infjEpic]

I realize that I am rambling a bit. I am angry and it feels like his attempts to be nice and to be responsibly are adding to my anger. I keep wondering, "Why now? Why couldn't he have said and done some of these things years ago?" I cannot and will not ever take him back or even consider doing anything more than being a coparent. I don't even know how to react to him reaching out to me so much over "practical" matters. He didn't care about this stuff 3 months ago or 6 months ago or a year ago. It is infuriating.

I think you have every right to be angry.

At the same time however, and this is just an observation which may be totally inaccurate - I think your anger is stemming from the fact that some part of you somehow expected different?

I totally understand why you are infuriated, and I'd be a total and utter hypocrite if I said I didn't experience the same thing.

But when I do - just a mindfulness technique - I try to detach from experiencing the actual emotion and ask myself why I'm angry?
.
.
A vulture cannibalizing a rotting corpse is vile and disgusting and toxic.
But becoming infuriated at a vulture for cannibalizing a rotting corpse is self defeating. Worse even, self destructive.
It's their nature.
And it's not going to change.
The opposite - If it promotes survival, it will intensify and propagate.

Same goes for all the bat sh*t crazy antics of our disordered past partners. Only non-disordered people can overcome their inherent programming... .(and only some of us at that!)

Stop looking at him as an non-disordered person behaving immorally/selflessly.
He is a disordered person capable of feigning morality/selflessness (although you clearly see through it).



And feeling like 'a mean b*tch' - squash that... .Is a mean B*tch someone who breaks her back for her kids when her burden of a partner sods off to pursue whatever demented frenzy has currently gripped him?

Remind yourself of that next time (he/that thought) shows up

[vortex of confusion]

At the same time however, and this is just an observation which may be totally inaccurate - I think your anger is stemming from the fact that some part of you somehow expected different?

Hmmm. . .that is an interesting observation. I am not going to rule it out completely. It is weird because this is actually pretty much what I expected to happen. This is part of his pattern. I can cite quite a few examples over the years where he would do something well after the fact and then act though he was saying, "See, I am a good boy boy. I did what you wanted. What is your problem now?"

I think I am more angry that I was right and that it took me this friggin' long to recognize the pattern. I don't know how many times he has said something or done something and I have acted surprised only to stop and think for a minute and then remind myself that I shouldn't be surprised. I have a few friends that are great at reminding of this.

I know how he operates. It is like the jump scares in cheesy horror films. You know it is coming. You just don't know when. And then, it happens and you jump and then you shake your head at yourself because you knew it was coming, you just didn't know exactly when or in what form.

But when I do - just a mindfulness technique - I try to detach from experiencing the actual emotion and ask myself why I'm angry?

I have been asking myself that question a lot lately. Why am I still angry? Why is this still having an impact on me?

The answer varies from time to time. Mostly, I think a lot of the anger has very little to do with what he is or isn't doing right now. I think a lot of the anger is anger that I am finally allowing myself to feel without trying to justify it or explain it away. I have a lot of years of built up anger and resentment.

Some of it has nothing to do with him. It almost feels like an awakening of sorts. I allowed him to do a lot of the things that he did because of how I was trained to behave by my FOO. Just the other night, I was having a conversation with my mother. In that moment, I had a sense of deja vu because it became so obvious to me why I was so oblivious to some things. My mother and my ex have very similar methods of communication. They are both really great at finding ways to make conversations all about them. They both love to be praised and recognized for every little thing they do. What once seemed so normal and run of the mill, now angers me. Why didn't I learn that this wasn't normal sooner? I had that gut feeling that something wasn't right but those feelings were routinely dismissed by myself and others.

And, I am also angry because I bought into the whole notion that I was the broken one. I bought into his crap that I was demanding and impatient and blah, blah, blah. Again, it is another situation where I am angry at myself for buying into it and trying to fix myself. I am not perfect by any means. I am pretty good at identifying my weaknesses and faults. If he had told me something that I knew to be true, I wouldn't have questioned him. He chose to make stuff up rather than focus on anything that was based on who I actually am.

It is no surprise that I would buy into it. When I was in college, I dated a guy that my dad didn't like. They kicked me out and wouldn't let me come back unless I went to counseling and fixed myself. There was one session where my entire family sat around and told me all of the things wrong with me and all of the things that I needed to change and fix about myself. My oldest sister refused to participate because she told them all flat out that she wasn't going to sit around and tell me what was wrong with me because she thought they were the ones with the problem not me. She thought that what my parents did to me was barbaric. Our parents punished her and gave her hell for refusing to participate. As a child, all of my siblings and I were subjected to being told we were messed up if we dared challenge the expected crazy family protocols. All of us were painted black at different times and were forced into counseling or institutions or something so that we could be fixed and see the error of our ways. If I got a B, I was asked why it wasn't an A. If I got a 95, I was asked why it wasn't a 100. Naturally, I was trained to see myself as the problem whether I was or not. That makes me so unbelievably angry at my family, at my ex, and at myself.

Only non-disordered people can overcome their inherent programming... .(and only some of us at that!)

I am working on changing the programming. In the process of identifying the faulty input, I find myself getting so angry that I am so old and am realizing some of this stuff for the first time. I have had that nagging feeling in my gut for years but wasn't in a place to actually do anything about it. Now, it almost feels like ex, along with my family, have robbed a lot of really good years from me.

I want to hold on to some of this anger to keep me motivated to keep moving forward. I don't ever want my kids to have to deal with this sort of stuff. The only way to protect them is to deprogram myself and make sure that I undo any faulty programming that has happened as a result of being around their dad and my disordered family. I do NOT want any of this crap to be normalized. I want them to be able to look at things and identify disordered and run like hell from it. I have to do this for them.

He is a disordered person capable of feigning morality/selflessness (although you clearly see through it).

I see through it so clearly that it hurts.

And feeling like 'a mean b*tch' - squash that... .Is a mean B*tch someone who breaks her back for her kids when her burden of a partner sods off to pursue whatever demented frenzy has currently gripped him?

Thank you for this! I actually cried when I read this.

[jhkbuzz]

I think I am more angry that I was right and that it took me this friggin' long to recognize the pattern.

What once seemed so normal and run of the mill, now angers me. Why didn't I learn that this wasn't normal sooner?

And, I am also angry because I bought into the whole notion that I was the broken one. I bought into his crap that I was demanding and impatient and blah, blah, blah. Again, it is another situation where I am angry at myself for buying into it and trying to fix myself.

Naturally, I was trained to see myself as the problem whether I was or not. That makes me so unbelievably angry at my family, at my ex, and at myself.

In the process of identifying the faulty input, I find myself getting so angry that I am so old and am realizing some of this stuff for the first time.

So some of your anger is (understandably) directed at him, but a lot of it is self directed. 

I was in therapy for about 2 years after the end of my r/s. One of the most valuable things it taught me was how to be gentle with myself. I discovered I was treating myself as harshly as my own mother treated me. My therapist taught me how to befriend the little girl who is still inside me; the one who was much too little to defend herself growing up and who now needed my love and gentle care.

Yours does, too.

I can't exactly go so far as to say that I am glad I became involved with my ex, but I can almost say it. What I've learned about my life, and the ways in which I've grown, make all that pain nearly worth it. Nearly.

[Skip]

The final stages of relationships can be filled with resentment... .Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful?  

When we are resentful, we try to balance the wrongs we feel by demeaning the person that hurt us.  We bash them, feel disgust for them, feel hatred or look down in pity... .

The problem for us is that we create a dysfunctional and false reality to sooth our pain.  And in doing so we cling to a futile need to be right or be superior, which overrides our capacity to heal and to make healthy changes in our lives... .usually because we don't know any other way to come to grips with the painful feelings.  
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.0

Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful? He's offering support. It may feel like too little and too late, but do you want to discourage it/defeat it?

[vortex of confusion]

The final stages of relationships can be filled with resentment... .Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful?

That is a good question. I feel like some of it is unhealthy and unhelpful.

I feel like there are other parts of it that are helpful as it is helping me to see things more clearly. Some of it feels like it is acting as a bit of a protective mechanism to keep me from going back into the fog.

Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful? He's offering support. It may feel like too little and too late, but do you want to discourage it/defeat it?

I recognize that this is an area where I am struggling. I am trying not to discourage it or defeat it. However, I feel like my attempts to encourage him are being taken as an invitation by him to go too far. I am trying to think of how to explain it.

For the last year, he was largely checked out and didn't contact me much or offer much support. Now, he is offering support and I am trying to work with him. The problem arises because of his all or none approach. He was taking care of a business matter and had to text me and keep me up to date for every little step of the process. All I needed to know was the ultimate outcome: He took care of it and how much it would cost. I know some of this comes from his own insecurities. I don't have it in me to reassure him and soothe him and tell him that he is doing great. I do resent the fact that he still comes to me for praise. I know this sounds bad but I would like a little bit of recognition for all that I have done and continue to do. I am not doing what I do for praise or reward. I am trying to do the right thing even when it is uncomfortable. I still don't feel like he is doing the right thing for the right reasons. I still feel like he is doing what he is doing because he lost his pedophile boyfriend. When I kicked him out last year, he ran to his mommy several states away and stayed away for almost a month. He didn't contact me to ask about the kids or anything else. When he finally did come back, he had to rub my nose in the fact that he had found the love of his life. He had to rub my nose in the fact that he found a woman that floated his boat and inspired him. I did none of those things for him.

Now, he is trying to tell me how much he misses me and the kids. Now, a year later, he is trying to tell me that he had no choice but to live with a pedophile. I have told him that he did have other choices. He could have chosen to come back and NOT flaunt his girlfriend in my face. If he had come back and wanted to work things out and try to step up, I would have probably let him come home. Now, it is too late. I can't trust him for one second. He seems surprised at my lack of trust. He acts like I am being unreasonable because I don't trust him.

Also, it seems like he is using my encouragement as an excuse to tell me everything, even stuff that is not relevant to me or the kids. I am trying to find ways to communicate with him and let him know that I am not interested in hearing every little detail of what is going on in his life.

The kids have asked me to encourage him to get checked out. Several years ago, his primary care doctor recommended that he get checked out by a cardiologist. He didn't do it. The kids are aware of this and have asked me to encourage him to go. They love their dad and want to see him healthy. They have expressed to me that they miss the dad that they used to have and are hoping that maybe there is a physical cause for his behavior changes over the years. I can't ignore that. I have encouraged him to do those things as have the kids. He asked me, "If you don't care and aren't interested in my life, why are you encouraging me to go to the cardiologist?" It is infuriating to me that any ounce of care and compassion that I show for him is taken as an invitation to try to steam roll me into being his emotional caretaker again. That is creating a lot of anger and frustration in me because I know that he needs to do this stuff for himself. I don't know how to do this all or none thing. I want a happy medium where we can take care of business stuff without him taking it as an opportunity to fill me in on everything he is doing.

I want to be able to care about him because he is a human being and he is the father of my children. I also don't want that care and compassion to be taken advantage of and used by him to suck me into being his emotional caretaker. I know that I am reacting in unhealthy ways. The harder he tries to pull me in, the harder I try to push him away. I am hoping to address this with my counselor. In the mean time, I have to try to sort this out because I am aware that I am all over the place with my feelings again. For a while, I felt like I was doing pretty good. He was keeping a distance and I was able to see things more clearly. The more he contacts me for anything, the more cloudy things are becoming and the harder it is for me to stay in a place that I feel is more balanced and rational.

[Grey Kitty]

For me, it is about trying to minimize the damage and hurt for the kids.[... .] If they feel better visiting dad here, then I am going to try to work with that as long as everyone is okay with it. I know that I don't have to do that.

"Everyone" includes you, not just your kids and their dad.

You don't sound very "OK" with being around him right now.

[vortex of confusion]

"Everyone" includes you, not just your kids and their dad.

You don't sound very "OK" with being around him right now.

I am trying to be okay with it.

I am trying to give him the opportunity to spend time with his kids. I am having a difficult time being consistent on this because I don't want to be around him. We had everything set up for him to spend some time with the kids this weekend. At the last minute, I backed out and changed my mind because I didn't want to be around him. I know that has to be confusing for everyone involved. When I told the kids that I didn't want dad coming over this weekend, part of them said they didn't care and part of them expressed relief.

He isn't offering to pick them up and take them anywhere. His visits involve him coming over to my house and hanging out with the kids. He will come over in the afternoon and stay until the kids' bed time. It feels like once he is here, he doesn't want to leave. If him and the kids are getting along, then I try to let it be. It does take an emotional toll on me though. I know that one of the kids tends to get stomach aches when he is here. The last time he came and stayed late, she got a stomach ache. As soon as he left, it subsided.

The kids don't want to be with him unless I am around. I can understand their point of view. Dad can't seem to figure stuff out on his own. They want to hang out with him but they don't want to do it in a parent/child setting where they have to rely on him. All of these decisions are falling on my shoulders and it can be overwhelming for me. I am trying to put my crap aside and I think it does tend to feed my anger and resentment.

[Grey Kitty]

I am trying to be okay with it.

I think I recall a history of trying to be OK with things he wants that has gone pretty badly for you in the past.


Anyhow... .if he cannot manage and arrange to spend time with his children on his own, without you there, what is your responsibility?

Do you have a responsibility to him to "help" by being there with him and the kids?

Do you have a responsibility to your kids to do it?

Or is it better for all involved to let him succeed or fail on his own when it comes to having a relationship with the kids.

[formflier]

VOC,

Every once in a while I peek in on some of your threads.

Couple things

1st.           Kudos to you for standing up for YOU and your kids.  It's been a tough year.  You've done the right thing.  Your ex doesn't see it that way.  That's tough. 

You know you did the right thing.  Someday your kids will likely understand it.  I know you did the right thing.

Big question:  Why does it matter to you that your ex understands your sacrifice?

Do you think he ever will?  Honestly, I think I would be even more shocked that you if he ever "got it"...

Having him over to the house IS the right thing.  With his choices of room mates... .and other irresponsibility I would NOT encourage him to have a r/s outside your house and eyes with the kids.

If he starts pushing for it... .cross that bridge when it comes.  I don't think it will.

1.  I would stop telling him you are not interested... .or anything about the status of your r/s.   You've said it... .drop it.

2.  Keep the focus on the kids, whatever you can do to stop discussing his other choices is better.  Whatever can be done to stop talking about "the past".   There does have to be balance here, because you DO need to understand some of his choices... .for instance... where he lives... his room mates... .etc etc.  Good grief.

You have made huge strides toward health.  You are right to be pissed (and any other emotion) at him.  Hopefully your T can help you through this.

   

Do you think you could go have some "you time" when he comes over?  Some self care?

Hang in there.  Thanks for doing the right thing.  We need more like YOU!

FF

[HopinAndPrayin]

I'm so sorry you're struggling with this.  Two things strike me about your story. 

The first is apparent competence.  This kicks in for my exBPD.  He would split, without warning his paycheck would disappear, and he would suddenly put in more effort to make it look like everything was perfectly find and he was making rational and healthy decisions to get out of an unhealthy relationship.  He deemed the relationship unhealthy because I was unwilling to compromise my boundaries - weird.  To his family, he presented as well groomed, financially responsible, going to counseling, etc.  What I found out later (he had several of these running out / splitting episodes over the years) was that he wasn't going to counseling at all, despite saying he was.  He wasn't going to AA meetings - figured that out when the topic each week was strangely alternating between 2 topics over several weeks.  He was unable to pay his bills.  He was being written up for being absent at work.  After the 2nd run out, I would not allow him back into the house unless I could see his bank accounts, emails, phone, and had waivers with all his medical providers because I could not trust him.  That's when even more of this came to light.  (My exBPD is avoidant / dependent sub-type.)  So, if you are having a reaction to his suddenly putting in effort when you are done, keep in mind that you should trust nothing that is said and only 10% of what you see.  My guess is you're waiting for the floor to fall out again, just like it has so many times before.

The second is potentially around when he did put in the effort, it wasn't enough to make it worthwhile?  I can only share my experience here, but what I found was when he did put in effort, it was so little compared to how bad it was that I found the gap between what was needed and what I got was so large that I was angry with myself for having put up with and hoping around it for so long.

If you haven't read it, I can not recommend The Dance of Anger enough.  Most of our anger, especially for women, is not around what the other person does, but with ourselves for allowing some boundary or part of ourselves to be violated.  Depending on the mood you're in that can either be vexing or comforting.  I alternated between the two for a long time.  If it something we are doing to ourselves, we can change what we are doing. 

[vortex of confusion]

Or is it better for all involved to let him succeed or fail on his own when it comes to having a relationship with the kids.

As far as the responsibility stuff goes. . .

I do feel like I have a responsibility to help him to see the kids whether that be through working out times or places. He can't just up and decide to see them and then show up. It is my responsibility to work with him up to a certain point.

Me being there when he visits is not about him at all. It is about the kids. They have asked that I be there. If he isn't protesting, I don't see why I should force the kids to be with him if they don't want to be. Since there are no court orders, I have the flexibility to give the kids a choice. Their dad isn't fighting anything that I say.

It is up to him whether or not he succeeds or fails to have a relationship with the kids. The success of the relationship is not something that I can determine. What I can do is act as a buffer for the kids. I have seen the pain and hurt that they have experienced because of their dad. If there is some way that I can help them with that, I do see it as my responsibility. I can't protect them from everything but I can damn sure be somebody that they can trust to listen to them when they say stuff about dad. I stayed far too long and I have seen the damage that it did to them. I am NOT going to force them on their dad and I will keep things out of court as long as I can so I can continue to give them the freedom to choose. I don't want them to think that their dad's behavior is normal or okay just because he is their dad.

Isn't that how the cycle of abuse is perpetuated? Parents justify and excuse bad behavior and then force kids to accept it because they are just kids. Then, when they grow up, they accept crap because it is a husband or some other relation. Nope, I want the cycle to stop right here and right now.

[vortex of confusion]

Big question:  Why does it matter to you that your ex understands your sacrifice?

I don't feel like I am sacrificing anything. I made the choices that I made knowing what was involved. When I think of sacrifice, I tend to think of martyr. That isn't what I am wanting him to understand or see. I think I just want him to understand that I am exhausted. I want him to see the work that I do, not as a sacrifice, but as a human. I want him to see me as a human being with limits. I feel like if he could just see it or understand it, then maybe he would back off or be a little bit more helpful. It isn't really that I want him to see the sacrifice. I just don't want him to keep adding more crap onto my plate.

If he starts pushing for it... .cross that bridge when it comes.  I don't think it will.

I doubt that he will push it. That would require too much effort. I have been to his new apartment and I think it would be a safe place for a sleep over. I have talked to the kids about it and they say that they want me to go too. Um, not happening. He did bring it up with the kids. When I mentioned that dad wanted to know about them hanging out with him, they asked me, "Was that your idea or dad's?" They know that dad doesn't take any kind of initiative on anything. He can try all he wants but it is going to be an uphill battle. The kids don't have much faith in him.

1.  I would stop telling him you are not interested... .or anything about the status of your r/s.   You've said it... .drop it.

He is like a little kid. I do need to remind him. If I don't, he will slip into some kind of delusional world where he thinks we are getting back together. He will make up his own little reality and it will change from moment to moment. I do need to occasionally remind him that me being nice to him is not indicative of him having a snowball's chance in hell of doing anything more than coparenting with me.

2.  Keep the focus on the kids, whatever you can do to stop discussing his other choices is better.  Whatever can be done to stop talking about "the past".   There does have to be balance here, because you DO need to understand some of his choices... .for instance... where he lives... his room mates... .etc etc.  Good grief.

I am the one that keeps bringing up the past. Not him. It feels like he is acting as though none of it happened and that I have no reason to mistrust him. I won't deny that I am still very angry and hurt over the things that happened. Intellectually, I know that saying anything to him is pointless. Emotionally, it feels good to be dumping this stuff where it belongs. . .on him. I have told him that I don't know how to deal with some of the stuff that happened and that I am having a difficult time being around him and dealing with him. I need time and space to heal. When he keeps trying to pull me back in, I don't know how to do anything other than push him away with the truth of what he has done.

Do you think you could go have some "you time" when he comes over?  Some self care?

When he is there, I feel very uncomfortable. I tend to keep myself busy doing something around the house or in the kitchen. I might run to the store or run errands. I can't relax enough for me time or self care when he is around. I have gotten more me time and self care in the year that he has been gone than I ever did before. Being a single mom with 4 kids is way easier by myself than it ever was with him. The kids aren't clinging to me and using me as a buffer. I can go to my room now and do stuff and they give me space. They go to bed without a fuss these days so I get time to myself at night. It is a totally different life for all of us. The kids have even made comments about how much better everything is since dad left.

[vortex of confusion]

The first is apparent competence.  This kicks in for my exBPD.  He would split, without warning his paycheck would disappear, and he would suddenly put in more effort to make it look like everything was perfectly find and he was making rational and healthy decisions to get out of an unhealthy relationship. 

Thank you for this! That is a good description of some of what he has done. He started going to SAA meetings for sex addicts 3.5 years ago. I know he was going to the meetings. However, the stuff that was being said and done was completely bogus. He told me that he didn't have to work on our relationship because he needed to focus on himself. That is what the guys in his group said. He told me that the guys in his group said that what he was doing was okay.

I would ask him, ":)id you discuss this with your sponsor?" He assured me that he did and that his sponsor was okay with it. I would ask him what qualified as sobriety. Why was him answering and posting online ads not a violation of his sobriety? I was told that it was no different than a normal guy dating. The reason was that we were separated. We were in an open relationship. I was seeing someone else. (I was.) It was one excuse after the other. He used his "healing" and his 12 step work as justification for it all. When it came time to make amends, he used that as an excuse to reach out to other women. I took issue with it. It was part of his healing process to reach out to these women and apologize to them and talk to them. He had to make living amends to me. Me trying to take issue with any of it was me being unreasonable. I was being a hypocrite. I was trying to stand in the way of his healing.

He recently tried to tell me that things were different because he is going to his meetings and counseling. I told him that I thought his meetings were crap (or something along those lines) to which he responded, "If I had known you hated them that much, I would have stopped going." Um, I hated them because you told me that they were validating your behavior and telling you that it was okay for you to be doing stuff that I thought was not okay. Then he tells me, "I was lying. I lied to them. When I started telling them the truth, they told me that I needed to go to counseling and all of the other stuff you suggested. You were right all along."

He deemed the relationship unhealthy because I was unwilling to compromise my boundaries - weird.  To his family, he presented as well groomed, financially responsible, going to counseling, etc.

Ex presents well to others. It is like he has two personas at times. My kids saw it before I did. The oldest pointed out that dad treated her cousins better than he treated her. She pointed out that he would be Mr. Fabulous when people would come over. When they would leave, he would check out and go back to acting like we didn't exist.

One of my sticking points was that we had agreed to an open relationship. I was dating somebody and I was not hiding it from anybody but the kids. I openly told people what I was doing and why. He pretended to be the devoted husband that was sitting home crying over his wife while the truth was that he was chasing multiple people. He was lying about it all. And, he would tell me that I didn't float his boat and all sorts of other stuff. If I tried to talk to people about it, I would get stuff like, "Oh, well, I don't think he is doing that. He hasn't mentioned any of that to me." Basically, I was being hung out to dry because I was being honest. He was getting all the sympathy because he was lying and putting on a show to get pats on the back and sympathy.

The people that know and love me know better. They know that I can be spirited and sometimes difficult. They also know that I am none of the things that ex said I was. His mom and his family have no clue because they have been fed his crap over the years. And, I have taken his family to task a time or two when their boundary busting and criticisms became too much. He couldn't stand up to his mother so I did.

(My exBPD is avoidant / dependent sub-type.)  So, if you are having a reaction to his suddenly putting in effort when you are done, keep in mind that you should trust nothing that is said and only 10% of what you see.  My guess is you're waiting for the floor to fall out again, just like it has so many times before.

I suspect ex is very avoidant/dependent. He would rather avoid stuff and pretend that everything is okay. He needs somebody to depend on and check in with before he can do anything. Thank you for this! Yes, I am absolutely waiting for the floor to fall out again. Sometimes, the floor falling out is him not following through or feeding me crap. Usually, it is so unbelievably easy to tell when he is being a "bad boy". I know that sounds terrible. I am not sure how else to phrase it. When he would be splitting and living in his fantasy world, it was like his entire personality would change.

The second is potentially around when he did put in the effort, it wasn't enough to make it worthwhile?  I can only share my experience here, but what I found was when he did put in effort, it was so little compared to how bad it was that I found the gap between what was needed and what I got was so large that I was angry with myself for having put up with and hoping around it for so long.

That is so true. I have a friend that reminds me that I had the bar set so low that pretty much anybody else could have tripped over it yet ex would act like I had set the bar too high and was overly demanding.

[formflier]

He is like a little kid. I do need to remind him. If I don't, he will slip into some kind of delusional world where he thinks we are getting back together. 

I am the one that keeps bringing up the past. Not him.   When he keeps trying to pull me back in, I don't know how to do anything other than push him away with the truth of what he has done.
 

Hey... .some of my thoughts on the above stuff should be looked at in light of where you are with your T.  If your T is sending you in a certain direction, different than my suggestion... .I would discuss differences with your T so you understand, but ultimately, your T is the one to held you untangle from this r/s.

That being said...

At some point... .you need to stop being responsible for his thoughts/beliefs.  Instead of pre-empting them, form boundaries and only "enforce" when he crosses a boundary. 

My opinion is that he "sucks you in" for the purpose of having you "reject" him.  Even though you are physically separated, he still wants the push/pull cycle. 

There is zero chance he will ever stop this.

Over to you if you want to step away from this dynamic. 

2nd thought:

I suspect, but it's not as clear to me, that a similar push/pull thing is going on with you using "the truth" of the past.  I suspect it still validates a dysfunctional part of him... .that he mattered to you (or matters to you now).

FF suggested action items.

When he "pulls you back in"... just say no.  Or perhaps an ambiguous answer is best so as not to give him a clear "push" signal. 

Last thought:  Your T will eventually know you much better than we ever will.  And... this is not a "pure" detaching kind of thing.  There will be some sort of continuing r/s with him.  A very tricky road indeed.  You will be the one that has to define the r/s.  As is typical with pwBPD... .they will suck you dry if you let them.  Simpler is better... less energy expended on him, more for you and the kids.

 

FF

[vortex of confusion]

At some point... .you need to stop being responsible for his thoughts/beliefs.  Instead of pre-empting them, form boundaries and only "enforce" when he crosses a boundary. 

True. I feel like I say those things mostly when I feel like he has crossed a boundary. When he is being cool and our interactions are businesslike, I don't seem to have a problem. It is when there is too much interaction and I feel that pull.

My opinion is that he "sucks you in" for the purpose of having you "reject" him.  Even though you are physically separated, he still wants the push/pull cycle. 

I am sure he does. The reality is that there is probably a part of me that wants it too. I can protest all day long. If there wasn't some part of me that didn't enjoy it, I would be able to do a better job of knocking it off sooner. That was our pattern of interaction for so long that it is up to me to change it. Some days are better than others. Some days, he will start it and I will get a wild hair and decide that I am going to run with it and out do him. The problem is that I usually stop and catch myself and step back.

I suspect, but it's not as clear to me, that a similar push/pull thing is going on with you using "the truth" of the past.  I suspect it still validates a dysfunctional part of him... .that he mattered to you (or matters to you now).

What about me wanting to feel like I mattered to him?  Given the stuff that he has said and done, I do struggle with feeling like I didn't matter to him. I don't think anybody on this planet would believe it if I said he didn't matter to me. If he didn't matter to me, I would be taking a completely different approach to all of this. Because he is the father of my 4 children, it is quite likely that he will always matter to me on some level. Even if I get to a point of turning my back on him completely, he will still matter to me.

I think he just wants interaction with me and doesn't care if it is negative or positive. He is living alone now and doesn't have a room mate or anybody else that I know of. The reality is probably hitting him pretty hard.

Last thought:  Your T will eventually know you much better than we ever will.  And... this is not a "pure" detaching kind of thing.  There will be some sort of continuing r/s with him.  A very tricky road indeed.  You will be the one that has to define the r/s.  As is typical with pwBPD... .they will suck you dry if you let them.  Simpler is better... less energy expended on him, more for you and the kids.

I am still working on accepting the fact that he is going to continue to take from me emotionally as long as I am willing to give it. I can definitely feel a difference in my energy levels when I don't talk to him or deal with him. I know it is up to me to define the relationship and figure out how to navigate all of this stuff. He isn't going to fight me outright but he sure isn't going to make it easier on me emotionally.

Right now, it is a bit difficult because some of the stuff he has said has pulled on my heart strings. I would be lying if I said I was immune to it. He knows me. He knows I am a softy and that I can easily be pushed over. He knows how to badger me into stuff and I have to prove to him with my words and my actions that it is NOT going to work this time.

[formflier]

 I have to prove to him with my words and my actions that it is NOT going to work this time.

If you can spend some time thinking about where this thinking comes from... .I would bet it will do you some good.

My take:  It's not up to you to "prove" or "disprove" anything.  Any energy spent "making him see" anything... .is likely wasted... .and better used elsewhere.

My big picture on boundaries:  Think of a brick wall... .they don't push back.  They just stand there.  Yes it will take a little bit of energy to "reinforce" that wall when he chooses to bang into it repeatedly... .but... .you never see the wall... "push back".  

That visual minimizes energy... .

Your visual (to me) seems to get tired of him assailing the wall... and you want to "toss him back away from the wall"... .so he doesn't bother you for a while.

alternate idea

Not recommending this, but instead of "pushing back"... .is there a way to focus his unwanted attention.  Clean gutters, do chores... .buy groceries... get takeout.  

Yeah... that could seem manipulative.  Yeah... .he could get wrong idea.  But... you would have some results (whatever you focused him on)... .it would keep him busy.

Again... something to think about in a "crazy like a fox way"... .

Hopefully that makes sense...

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I think he just wants interaction with me and doesn't care if it is negative or positive. He is living alone now and doesn't have a room mate or anybody else that I know of. The reality is probably hitting him pretty hard.

I am still working on accepting the fact that he is going to continue to take from me emotionally as long as I am willing to give it. I can definitely feel a difference in my energy levels when I don't talk to him or deal with him.

I think you are right about this. Completely

You said earlier that you want to be there as a "buffer" between him and the kids. This is the cost of doing so. Is worth the cost or not?

[vortex of confusion]

Your visual (to me) seems to get tired of him assailing the wall... and you want to "toss him back away from the wall"... .so he doesn't bother you for a while.

This is exactly what is happening. When I feel the wall starting to crack, I panic and toss him back away from the wall in whatever way I can. I get the wall analogy and I try (but fail at times) to do it. The only excuse that I can give for tossing him away from the wall at times is that I am friggin' exhausted. I deal with 4 kids and I work 2 jobs. There are times when it is just easier to toss him away from the wall. I know it isn't the best.

Not recommending this, but instead of "pushing back"... .is there a way to focus his unwanted attention.  Clean gutters, do chores... .buy groceries... get takeout.  

Been there done that. It works quite well actually. The kids are much more amenable to him coming over if there is a purpose. They don't seem to get as bothered with I say, ":)ad is going to come over and take the car in for service." I have used that to my advantage quite a few times. I still use it whenever I can. I don't look at it as manipulative. I look at it as him helping take care of his kids. If he helps fix something or maintain the cars, he isn't doing it for me. He is doing it for his kids. If he can't take care of the kids directly, then he can do other stuff to support them.

I feel like I have quite an arsenal of tools and approaches. At the end of the day, all of those things require some kind of contact and some kind of interaction. Until recently, he wasn't really expressing any kind of regret. It was till pretty much the same old same old. I wasn't prepared for him to pull this hard a year later. I wasn't prepared to hear him say that he misses me and the kids. I wasn't prepared to hear him say stuff like, "I've told so many lies, I've lost track."  He has admitted to lying in his 12 step meetings. He has said stuff like, "I know I have done those things but I wish I didn't." Intellectually, I know it is all crap. I know that he has said and done similar things in the past. Even now, he says stuff like, "I am trying to take responsibility for my actions. What more do you want?"

It is a pointless discussion that I don't care to have. I can't and won't explain to him that he has to take some initiative with the kids and not rely on me to come up with all of the ideas for facilitating visits. I can't and won't explain myself to him because I know that he is wanting a "to do list" that he can do without putting much heart or thought into it. Then, he can say, "See, I did all of the things you wanted. What is your problem now?" It keeps the crap going. I don't want it to keep going. I don't want to give him lists or tell him what to do and I don't usually do it any more. I have told him several times lately, "I don't know. You have to figure it out."

[vortex of confusion]

You said earlier that you want to be there as a "buffer" between him and the kids. This is the cost of doing so. Is worth the cost or not?

Yes, it is absolutely worth the cost. I know that it won't be like this forever. In the mean time, I feel like I need a safe place to vent and talk it out so that I can get back into the ring and be strong for the kids.

[formflier]

What more do you want?
 

I would be very specific... .focus him. 

"I want to improve our co-parenting relationship.  It would mean a lot to me to occasionally include me in sessions with your T.  I want you to work with your T to become a more responsible parent"

Something like that.

Not a group... .not a sponsor... .but some type of board certified professional that understands she is helping the person in front of them (your hubby)... .for the benefit of him AND the kids and family his dysfunction has affected... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

I would be very specific... .focus him. 

"I want to improve our co-parenting relationship.  It would mean a lot to me to occasionally include me in sessions with your T.  I want you to work with your T to become a more responsible parent"

Sigh. . .I have suggested that he take parenting classes.

More importantly, I don't feel like I am in a position where I can ask to be included in his sessions. The reason is that is something that I tried to push for several years ago. He had insurance. I didn't. His reasoning was that his insurance wouldn't cover joint sessions. We had ONE session where I went. I tried to get him to schedule more for us together. He gave me a bunch of excuses about how the one session was just a one time thing that was done as a favor to me because I was so upset over what happened with CPS, etc. I don't think he ever went back to see her by himself or with me after that session.

During that session, the counselor asked him point blank why he couldn't take initiative. She said, "If you go in the kitchen and see that something needs done, do it. Don't wait for her to tell you to do it." She told me that I needed to stop putting him in the "petulant child" box.

Maybe I am having a bit of a mental block here. I don't see how me sitting in on a session with his T would help the situation. My reason is that he is really good about agreeing to things. In a conversation (with or without somebody present), he can sound very reasonable and show a lot of understanding. After it is over, it isn't applied. Or, if it is applied, it is done for a short period of time before he defaults to his usual behavior. I don't have much faith that it would work. I have very little faith in his ability to follow through. (As I type that, I laugh at myself a bit because the whole topic of this thread is me wondering why he is doing this stuff after a year. It is because he lacks follow through. He is trying to resort to what he knows, which is being "good" to get what he wants/needs and then he goes back to doing what he wants.)

I do have some responsibility to work with him for the sake of the kids. I don't know if that responsibility includes something at the level of sitting in on a therapy session. I feel like I can improve things on my side if I am able to work through some of my own issues with my own therapist. To me, going with him would be one more thing on my pile of resentments. Why the hell should I have to go to HIS therapist to help HIM? He didn't try to help me when I was wanting to catch up on sleep or do a bit of self care. I could have been a much better parent if I hadn't been burning the candle at both ends. I am having an internal struggle over this because I know that it might help the kids have a relationship with him. At the same time, I am wondering what my motivation would be and whether or not it would send the wrong message. 

Quite frankly, the thought of sitting with him for an hour listening to him drone on makes me queasy.

What I would really like is for him to go away and leave me alone. I can't do that because of the kids. So, I muddle through trying to do what is right for the kids while trying to carve out small spaces for me to work on healing myself and working through my own stuff. What do I want from him in clear terms: I want to be given the time and space to heal.

[formflier]

Maybe I am having a bit of a mental block here. I don't see how me sitting in on a session with his T would help the situation. 

Nope... .no mental block... .there are lots of competing emotions... resentments.

Slow down just a sec.

The point of the previous post was to give him a detailed... .focused... .and useful answer to "what else can I do... ."

The bar is much lower now... .it's not about a marriage... .it's about your kids.  Before it was about marriage, kids, sex addiction, his mom issues, etc etc etc etc

Please don't read that kids are less important... .  Perhaps I should say the goal is more focused.

You need to be in the room a time or two... .in order for the T to clearly underst and your goals and YOUR parenting methods.  She can help him be a benefit to you... .vice a competition... or net negative

Perhaps this is called "family therapy"... .who knows.

Again... .this is about having a clear... focused answer when he goes "what else could I do... ?"  I know it's pitiful that he has to be told this... .  

Plus... .it would be good to see what he will or won't do before you decide to file for divorce.  Count yourself lucky that he seems compliant with your direction in parenting... .visiting... .all of that.

This is not about you two as a couple... .

FF