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Author Topic: Tackling Summer Visitation Plans  (Read 377 times)
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« on: March 20, 2017, 02:24:12 PM »

Before court, the kids uBPDm wrote to DH saying she expects to have the kids for six weeks this summer and outlining the dates she had selected. We wrote back to her saying that we'd revisit the issue of summer visitation after the court date, which has now passed.

The current court order doesn't grant her any summer visitation and simply says that she can have other visitation "by agreement between the parties". Her only court ordered time is one weekend a month in our state (which she never uses) and every other Winter break, Spring break, and Thanksgiving break.

We are reluctant to give her long periods of time because she treats SD14 as another parent to her other children and leans on her heavily. She also spends a lot of time grilling her on what goes on in our lives. The alienation we have to deal with when the kids come back is very difficult. SS12 is generally pretty defiant and passive aggressive to begin with. The kids won't talk to us about what uBPDm says to them or tell us what we've been accused of. They come back just angry and difficult and won't talk about anything until eventually they start to snap out of it after having enough interaction with us that they remember who we actually are.

DH is usually ok with giving uBPDm two weeks. But with the kids getting older and doing a little better with transitions and uBPDm about to have to go to court ordered counseling in order to stay out of jail, I'm just wondering what others think about how we should tackle this summer.

1. Should we bring summer visitation back up, since we are the ones who told her we'd revisit the subject after court?

2. Her next court date where she must satisfy the courts demand that she must be released by a counselor is at the beginning of August. Should DH give her summer visitation only after that has been completed? (Kids don't go back to school until September.) On one hand, DH has given her two weeks without the counseling order being followed, so theoretically there is no reason she couldn't have her two weeks before that, except that we don't want to undermine the court now that there is a new demand.

3. DH was considering offering her a "carrot" by giving her almost four full weeks in August, provided she does what the court asks by the court date, but we have no way of knowing she won't ask for a last minute continuance and throw that whole plan off. Also, she wouldn't see it as much of a carrot as she doesn't want them at all in August. Just June and July.

4. What if we plan to give them to her in August and she doesn't follow through with the court and either doesn't show up or gets thrown in jail for non-compliance? I guess DH could give her a provisional agreement?

5. Maybe do two weeks in late June to early July and two weeks in August? Again, running the risk of undermining the court, though. Thoughts?

Please keep in mind that DH and I do feel strongly that, as Dr. Childress put it, "children benefit from a complex relationship with both parents". They love her and she will always be their mom. They won't learn to navigate their relationships with her if we focus only on protecting them like we had to do when they were younger. So simply telling her she's out of luck all together doesn't feel right or I'm their best interests.



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GaGrl
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 05:16:01 PM »

Hmmmm... .

"We can arrange for two (or three) weeks in August based on the court requirements being met on August 1."

That way, she knows you are not the decision-maker - you are looking to the court's authority.

Why should she seek counseling if she knows she could get 4 weeks visitation without doing it?
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 08:12:40 AM »

Gargirl - I love that sentence. It could not possibly be less complicated and less emotional. She can react however she reacts but we've put the ball in her court to do as the court requires and take advantage of what is offered. It effectively kicks the ball down the road to when we'll have more information.

I would think her main reason to seek counseling is that the judge told her in no uncertain terms that if she came back in August without fulfilling her court ordered obligation to get (and complete) some kind of counseling program then she would be "immediately incarcerated". For how long? I don't know.
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2017, 03:36:06 PM »

If she hasn't brought it up, I'd leave it be. Our uBPDm used to tell SS16 that she was going to call and arrange as soon as she hung up with him. He would come tell us, and we'd jump to it and figure out the plan we wanted, then contact her. We finally realized 1) she never initiated contact and 2) SS16 did not want to go. So we waited . . . and waited . . . and waited. It's been nine months and she has yet to bring it up with my husband. She mentions it to SS16 every now and then, and he just says okay. She never extends herself past that, and then typically something else catches her attention.
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2017, 05:26:37 PM »

I kinda worry that since she brought it up in the first place and then we said we'd revisit it after court she'll feel like it's our responsibility to bring it back up. She is likely to make a bunch of plans (or at least complain later that she made a bunch of plans) assuming she'll get the six weeks, even though she has no basis for that assumption.

I also think she's probably waiting for us to bring it up and tell her what she is getting because she'll complain no matter what. I halfway think that if we gave her two weeks when she knows I'm having the baby she would just get mad that we were giving her two weeks that are convenient for us.

The game changer was that I sent SD14's counselor an email asking her thoughts. She agreed that August after the court date was best, but also said that she felt two weeks was "sufficient" and didn't feel that any more than three weeks is a good idea. All in writing in an email. So thankfully we are now completey covered if court ever gets involved.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2017, 05:41:24 PM »

"We can arrange for two (or three) weeks in August based on the court requirements being met on August 1."

This is a great way to phrase it.

I understand, too, your point about wanting the kids to have a relationship (albeit complex) with their mom. Do the kids understand that mom is struggling to abide by the court ruling, and that their summer visitation is contingent on that?
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2017, 07:13:56 PM »


I understand, too, your point about wanting the kids to have a relationship (albeit complex) with their mom. Do the kids understand that mom is struggling to abide by the court ruling, and that their summer visitation is contingent on that?

That is exactly the question SD's T put to me in an email. She pointed out we do  a great job keeping the kids out of adult stuff but that maybe we are doing a little too good of a job. That she's 14 and maybe would benefit from a little more of a balanced view on things. Because after 2.5 years of living with us nearly exclusively SD is still very quick to defend her mom and only see things from her mom's perspective. I am going to talk to DH about sitting the kids down and telling them exactly as you said. The biggest hurdle with SD is that she sees the court as "stupid" for not realizing her mom just simply isn't going to do what they want and it's only punishing her and her brother. It is amazing to me the level at which she refuses to hold mom responsible for mom's own actions.
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2017, 07:18:09 AM »

It is amazing to me the level at which she refuses to hold mom responsible for mom's own actions.

To hold mom responsible, SD14 would have to acknowledge anger at her mom. I wonder if that is too frightening for her?

Is there a way to acknowledge that SD14's mom is very anxious (if that's her star quality) and that she seems unskilled at handling her anxiety in an effective way?

I've read stuff about validating kids, and validating BPD partners/ ex spouses. I haven't read much about demonstrating validation to a child, toward another person. Maybe that's what Bill Eddy's thing is about flexible thinking?

I have to do this with S15, who has pretty rigid thinking. It is particularly noticeable when it comes to his dad, but it extends to his friendships and to a lesser extent to his relationship with SO.
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2017, 12:11:32 PM »

L&L - I wish the uBPDm's star quality was her anxiety. If that were the case then I'd have a whole lot easier time finding compassion for her. Although she does have anxiety, it's an anxiety about not getting her own wants and needs met. She has very high expectations of other people's behavior towards her, but does not at all feel compelled to reciprocate. She appears to be a classic borderline Queen. She doesn't do what doesn't suit her.

She is literally baffled by what she sees as unfair expectations on her time by the court or the unfair expectations of her children that they have clean clothes or are otherwise generally taken care of. She does the classic both neglectful and indulgent thing with her kids and believes she is a good mother to them. SD has been put in the parent roll from the time she could walk. According to other people who've been in the home at the time, that included literally waiting on her mother hand and foot most of the time. You are probably entirely right that SD is just very afraid of actually letting herself get angry. Because once she does there is probably no way out that would let her keep her roll as the idealized child.

How do you validate a child's belief that it's ok and acceptable for their mom to be too selfish to do what she's supposed to do and then expect others to fix her problems for her? I mean, I get it. She didn't get her own needs met in childhood because she had incredibly indulgent and neglectful caretakers herself. There just doesn't seem to be a way to explain to SD that her mom feels she needs to look out for herself at the expense of everyone else that doesn't sound horrible and attacking. Or that wouldn't re-enforce SD's belief that she is doing the right thing by always protecting her mom.
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2017, 05:25:05 PM »

Thinking out loud here (and I'm not sure these are relevant examples):

SD14 brings you a story about biomom, casting her as the victim. How would it work to say something like, "It sounds like biomom is upset that things aren't going her way. I would feel the same way if xyz happened to me. I wonder how come biomom doesn't do abc so that she can do the things she wants?"

(My T says that using "how come" is less accusatory than "why"

Another thing I started doing (now that there's some trust with D19) is to say stuff like, "That must feel like a load to carry. It's hard when a kid feels emotionally responsible for an adult. Usually it's the other way around."

When D19 first appeared in my life, she would bring up her mom's side on things and it was soo aggravating to hear this BS brainwashed enmeshed version of reality about her mom's problems and what caused them. I could go on and on -- I started to write examples but it makes my blood pressure go up and I'm trying to not get jacked up on that drama. Plus, you probably know the kinds of stuff that BPD moms do 

Now I toss out a throwaway sentence that has some sort of validating sentence plus a reality check. Then I move on pretty quick to a different topic.

One time I said, "You're really wanting to protect your mom," and she dropped the topic like a hot potato until the next day when she unloaded a whole bunch of sadness about having to be that person in her mom's life.

D19 is likely BPD so she's a different case than SD14 from what it sounds, altho the enmeshment might be similar. With D19, if I want to dial out of a conversation (because it's starting to emotionally arouse her), I ask her if she has talked about whatever topic she has raised with her T.

I had to learn that one the hard way. 

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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2017, 03:56:29 PM »

I have no concern that SD is BPD, thankfully. Major concerns about SS, but his new counselor seems to think he's just going through normal teen father/son conflict with DH coupled with a lot of fleas from exposure to uBPDm's behaviors.

I wish the kids did come to us with stories of what BPDm says. They refuse to tell us anything that she tells them or tell us what goes on in her house. They know uBPDm is supposed to leave them out of it and she'd get in trouble for telling them "the truth". So they'll take their anger at what she tells them out on us, but they won't confront us with what she says.

It  always comes up in very round about ways. Example: DH used to get six weeks with the kids during the summer before he got custody. In a completely random conversation I once has with SD about their summers with us, she stated that they used to come for more than six weeks, saying they used to come on a Tuesday and leave on a Tuesday, so that was more than six weeks. And I had to sit there and help her look at the way calendars work to show her that if she came and left on the same day of the week that meant she was with us exactly six weeks and not one day more. She sat there with a look on her face that clearly said her mind was completely blown. The reality there was that obviously uBPDm had been talking to SD about how unfair it was that she only got two weeks, especially since she'd always given DH more than just the six weeks she had to. Which is untrue, she never let him have even three extra days so DH could have the kids for both Father's Day and SS's birthday. She made DH choose every year.

She also used to tell the kids she drove half way for child exchanges and it never once occurred to them that she wasn't really driving half way when they always felt like they were in DH's car for significantly longer. (Because he was actually driving 2/3 of the way.) They didn't realize what half way actually was until after the order was changed to force her to really drive half way. If their mom says it, then it is true and there is no point discussing it with us, even if their own senses should be telling them different.
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