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Author Topic: Is it typical BPD behavior to not understand consequences?  (Read 639 times)
bananas2
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« on: March 22, 2017, 10:11:13 AM »

I'm wondering if this is something typical of BPD or if it's something else. My BPDh doesn't seem to grasp the concept that his actions have consequences. For example, in the past, he spent a lot of time lying to me. So that obviously created a trust issue for me. So now if I ask him if he's telling the truth about something, he gets infuriated and says that the lying was a past behavior and is not occurring anymore, so I have no right to distrust him now. I try to explain to him that his actions (lying) created a consequence (me not trusting him). Or if he screams at me and I'm upset and hurt for the next hour, he'll act confused as to why I'm upset. If I tell him it's bc he was yelling at me, he just replies that "That was earlier. I'm not yelling now, so you shouldn't be upset." It's almost as if he thinks that if his bad behavior isn't occurring right at this moment, then it doesn't matter anymore.
I can't fathom how someone could not understand this simple concept of past actions having present consequences. Is this a BPD trait?
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2017, 11:04:24 AM »

bananas2-

Definitely a BPD trait for my diagnosed exBPDgf... .pwBPD operate on the level of a 4 year old, so abstract consequences like "distrust" or even "love" really make no sense to them in the way they make sense to us.
pwBPD are just trying to cope with the ping pong balls bouncing around in their heads and will try almost anything to cope with that stress/craziness... .porn, cutting, vaping, impulsive, reckless sex, purging... .

These are the ways pwBPD have been coping for years... .and I don't think they necessarily understand consequences like we nons do... .mine coped by cheating on me... .which we know has consequences, but to pwBPD the consequences are positive because it temporarily fills their emptiness and stops the ping pong balls temporarily... .

the other consequence they feel is shame for their actions, but they will do anything to stop from feeling that shame... .

Read as much as you can about BPD... .it will definitely help you cope.
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cubicinch
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2017, 11:18:11 AM »

if they did realise the consequences, then they wouldn't be BPD in the first place... :-)
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2017, 11:26:29 AM »

bananas2, I absolutely think they have no clue about consequences in regard to THEMSELVES. For us, they certainly make us feel the pain of our supposed wrongdoings. My bf actually thinks I was going to keep plans for my bday dinner out after he verbally assaulted me all weekend, and showed up in my house when I wasn't home to be antagonistic. He truly can't understand that I had told him I needed space and went NC for a reason. He says "it was just a fight" REALLY? no- no one does that. But our pwBPD's do on a regular basis.
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2017, 12:10:52 PM »

I would definitely say my uBPD SO has no idea of the consequences of her lies.  She doesn't seem to understand that just because she says she won't lie anymore... .doesn't mean I will believe her... .
I think it's a mechanism designed for self image protection.  For her, it's not that she lies, but that I snoop and catch her in lies... .that is the issue.
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2017, 01:02:59 PM »

I don't think it's that people with BPD (pwBPD) don't understand consequences. I think intellectually pwBPD can be very capable, and can understand a great deal of how other people work.  After all, pwBPD are able to work in high functioning professions such as attorneys, physicians, university professors, or CEOs.  However, when it comes to their own self-perception and the interaction of their close interpersonal relationship, they experience dysfunctional behaviors which involve distorted thinking and can affect their behaviors.

What pwBPD have trouble dealing with is impulsiveness.  I think pwBPD universally have difficulty managing their impulses (e.g. emotions).  And as pwBPD they also experience impulses and emotions that are not perceived/understood intuitively by non-BPD (i.e. imagined fear of abandonment).

The reason why a pwBPD might lie, might be to avoid imagined abandonment or actual abandonment (i.e. you would leave them if you knew).  They know enough not to tell you, or to tell you a lie.  But they were not considering this during their impulsive behavior which got them here in the first place.

Why don't they fess up and come clean?  Why don't they realize they have an issue with impulsiveness and seek help for that?  Well their distorted thinking (e.g. denial) leads them to think that maybe the problem is not with them, but it's with you.  From their way of think, if you didn't make them feel this way, they would have been drive to do the thing that they did which they had to lie about. From their perspective, they might ask: why don't you understand the consequences of your actions which lead them to act the way they did?

And I think this distorted thinking is a big part of why pwBPD don't seem to like to discuss what is going on inside their head.  Because they already have a system (dysfunction system) of manage/avoiding their own pain -- and this system works for them; if it didn't then they might be more motivated to change.  If they expose their distorted thinking, then they expose their own denial. It is easier just to blame you.
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abraxus
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2017, 01:33:03 PM »

This is just my opinion, based on my own experiences, but I've found that they do understand consequences, but have difficulty processing them directly, especially when told or asked to face them. However, they can understand them if led (or fooled) to reach them on their own.

For instance, if they do something wrong, and you explain the consequence of that is you'll be upset, or wont take them to dinner, or whatever, they can't handle it. They take it personally and see it as retaliation (which I guess it is), and their default reaction is to get defensive. It's not really about being mean, or unreasonable, it's just a protective reflex response.

What I've found works for me, is to try and bypass that defensive/protective instinct, and approach things in a way that makes them think for themselves. In a sense it's about not directly linking the "punishment" to the action, but allowing them to draw their own conclusion and act accordingly. I guess it's less about directly expressing that you're upset, and more about giving them the feeling that something's amiss, but that they can't quite put their finger on it.

For example, instead of cancelling a night out because I say I'm upset, I just act happy and say that I'm tired, or busy. In that way, they can't turn it round on you, and blame you for reacting, but they do associate that certain actions on their part, lead to certain consequences that they don't like.

I guess the key is to not show that what they do gets to you, and makes you act in a way that they can distort as being petty or vindictive, and just that it leads to you being tired, or less inclined to want to spend time with them. The important part (at least how I see it) is that it's not about you expressing how you feel verbally, but instead acting in a way that they can interpret as such. The minute you admit you're doing something for a reason, and explain why, it triggers the defensive/protective response. It's a fine balance, but done properly it usually results in me getting an apology and a greater effort to not act up.
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2017, 02:00:33 PM »

I agree with a lot that has been shared on here but also want to add that BPD is about the moment.  The past only matters when they want it to matter (when it's about you).  If you point out past behaviors that have shaped how you feel and act now, they are like, but this is the present.  That no longer exists.  Also, since so much if the condition is shame avoidance, the past and consequences tied to their actions has to be distanced from them. 

So yes, they understand if they think you are mean, you deserve the consequence of their behavior, no matter how off scope it is.

But if you point out to them YOU have a right to be upset because they were mean/rude/abusive, well, often they have justified their actions to a point that you can just be accused of being vindictive for being upset about something that was your fault in the first place (in their mind). 

This is talking about high functioning pwBPD.  Low functioning, very self-harmful ones I think have built such a wall of "it's never my fault" around them that yes, they totally ignore consequences and even when caught, it's still not their fault - like my BPD mother shoplifting repeatedly and getting arrested.  She never admitted to it.  The world was out to get her and people would sneak things into her purse and make her write hot checks. 
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Jessica84
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2017, 11:53:28 AM »

This is all very insightful. Now I know why it's MY fault when HE does wrong. I caused it (in his mind) so he is blameless.

Sadly, there is just enough truth to their rationale that it can almost make sense to us. He will hone in on one thing I said, which I did in fact say, but conveniently erase the context or his part in it from his mind. So I will feel guilty for a minute... .until I regain perspective (reality), then I feel justified again. Of course, I can't sell him my version without triggering him... .but I don't have to buy into his version either.
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abraxus
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2017, 12:14:30 PM »

It's actually less about erasing context, and more that their black and white thinking doesn't allow them room to understand context. The "why" doesn't matter or compute with them, just the action.

So, it's not your "fault" as such, but your actions play a part. Look at it this way, people's actions don't occur in a vacuum, often they're a reaction to outside stimuli. Sometimes it's something you do, sometimes not. Even when it is you though, it's still not your fault, as you did nothing wrong, and it's their reaction to it that's at fault.

They just don't see that though, at least not always.
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2017, 01:28:46 PM »

Another thing to add is that I don't believe this blameshifting and rewriting of events to avoid shame or responsibility for their parts in conflict is necessarily premeditated.  It's almost in inborn instinct to do all of these internal mental and emotional gymnastics to make sure any conflict is about you.  I say this because one issue once you start learning about how BPD thought processes can be explained to a "non", it's not so much a, "crap, I was mean and abusive because I did not like remembering I chose not to take out the trash - how can I make this so-and-so's fault?"  It's just taken for granted is was obviously so-and-so's fault because a lifetime has been spent thinking this way and acting on it. 

Since we can't change them directly, all we can do is be mindful of how we accidentally make things worse.  Trying to argue logic, who said what, and when, and reasons for why you may be mad yourself rarely make any positive headway.  Explaining that "you were mean, so I don't want to be around you, that's a consequence" does not compute.  We want to "JADE" - Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain.  And with a person who is healthier emotionally, JADE may actually break through to them.  In cases with BPD, it just builds a higher wall.  Covered in fire. 
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2017, 02:10:26 PM »

When it comes to context, I think it is all about how they feel in the moment.  If your action made them feel bad, then they will rewrite context and everything else in that situation to support their feeling.  I think in many cases they actually believe the rewritten history.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2017, 02:58:37 PM »

I don't think any of it is premeditated or on purpose either - but auto-pilot defense mechanisms kicking in. "Mental and emotional gymnastics" is a good description. They rewrite history because they have to. They can't face that their words/actions (past or present) might have uncomfortable consequences - such as our ability to trust, love, or want to spend time with them. They expect us to act as if nothing happened. If we bring it up, we're seen as petty, vindictive, living in the past, holding a grudge.

This is why boundaries are important. We can show the consequences without explaining them. They may or may not understand, but boundaries are about protecting us.

1) they throw up all over us --> 2) they feel better --> 3) we are covered in vomit --> 4) we feel bad --> 5) consequence/boundary. If they can't see 3 and 4, they won't understand 5. We have to do #5 anyway.
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2017, 03:26:25 PM »

I don't think any of it is premeditated or on purpose either - but auto-pilot defense mechanisms kicking in. "Mental and emotional gymnastics" is a good description. They rewrite history because they have to. They can't face that their words/actions (past or present) might have uncomfortable consequences - such as our ability to trust, love, or want to spend time with them. They expect us to act as if nothing happened. If we bring it up, we're seen as petty, vindictive, living in the past, holding a grudge.

This is why boundaries are important. We can show the consequences without explaining them. They may or may not understand, but boundaries are about protecting us.

1) they throw up all over us --> 2) they feel better --> 3) we are covered in vomit --> 4) we feel bad --> 5) consequence/boundary. If they can't see 3 and 4, they won't understand 5. We have to do #5 anyway.


That is such a great way to put it! I don't believe it is premeditated either. It is just their way to react whenever they feel less than your main priority. You can hold them up high in the relationship all you want,  but if they don't FEEL it, look out. My bfwBPD actually gets mad when I have to get off the phone AT WORK after he has gone on and on at me about something. I started watching the clock and set a limit, then I tell him I have to go. He gets mad and rants but I remove myself.
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2017, 03:46:00 PM »

I totally agree with what everyone has written so far, and would like to add my experience with my now ex BPD gf.

There were times particularly the break up, where she was unable to see that she had contributed anything to the downfall, it was all my fault. If i tried to state otherwise then she would justify that  her actions where a reaction to something i had done originally.

It was never ever her fault, she could not see that the way she acted had an implication on those around her. If you were to bring it up, you were being unfair and either picking or trying to control or manipulate her.

In the end it became very tiring and i can remember one time she said to me that if i had any problems about things in the relationship i could talk to her about them. When i did  it was turned back to me. she said ' well, if im that horrible what are you doing with me, trade me in for a better model'

Whether i said anything or did nothing- there would still be a problem, and it always started or ended with me.

 

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cubicinch
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2017, 04:02:48 PM »

confused cloud: I got projected at... she sat there saying she felt neglected (when I travelled 90 miles to see her especially) and then had the nerve to throw it all at me, asking me what I had done to screw up my previous relationships! I knew deep down how wrong this was, I had done little wrong and everyone who knew me well enough backed me up. Since I've been looking on here, I now can see she probably was projecting at me, reciprocating what someone else had probably fairly recently said to her.
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abraxus
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2017, 04:21:57 PM »

It was never ever her fault, she could not see that the way she acted had an implication on those around her. If you were to bring it up, you were being unfair and either picking or trying to control or manipulate her.

I've had similar conversations and learnt to stop arguing about it.

Funnily enough, I was once accused of being unfair and trying to control her, and so I just looked at her said "Yep, I am being unfair, and I am trying to control you, as you're out of control and need to get back on track".

She just looked at me and said "Oh, ok then", and calmed down after that.
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cubicinch
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2017, 04:55:54 PM »

whenever my girlfriend used to have an anger melt down at me (and it could happen at anytime, anywhere, usually focussed at me for something she didn't deal with herself, but could blame me for), I would simply not react as I thought she wanted, I would calmly tell her to get over herself and run through things that should be done to solve the situation, and she would just calm down straight away and see through the red mist.

She never referred back to any of those incidents, and seemed to move on. On the other hand, I logged them in my memory. I would never bite and feed her the response I think she expected... I won, she backed down. After so long though, they will realise they can't control you as they would wish, so they will back off, not being able to deal with it. You are not under their control, you are too strong for them. That is potentially a situation they cannot live with, and will get out.
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2017, 05:04:59 PM »

Cubic,
 i totally empathise with what you are saying. I can see where this has happened to me before, and i wasn't really paying attention to it. I just brushed it off, made an excuse for her in my own mind. But the more i think about it now the more i see what was happening.

I used to meet her every night after work, buy food, and/or cook for her. She didn't do for me half that i did for her, i was still told i'm uncaring, that i think of no one but myself.

I said well, i do this and this for you- she asked me if i wanted a medal? That, that was supposed to be how it was in a relationship.

When i asked why it was she never did those things for me. She used to get mad, then she would ask me why i was getting angry, when i wasn't. I hadn't even raised my voice. She would be getting more and more wound up. Telling me i had anger issues? That i needed help?

I once rang to ask if i could see her one weekend and she accused me of being needy, and suffocating her- this was from a girl who'd ring in the early hours, wanting me to go to hers after a night shift as she had had a bad dream. Who rang every lunch to ask if i was meeting her when she finished. Who if i had plans would accuse me of not wanting to be with her.

Looking back it seems totally biased... .
 
i lacked the understanding of her BPD, but i can see now a lot of what was supposedly an issue with me as a person, did not exist and was just projection on her side.

Abraxas i really admire your ability to grasp the situation, i think for me that was the greatest challenge. Most the time id just switch off to it and i was probably just enabling her to behave that way.
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2017, 05:16:53 PM »

It's a dodgy place to be in when you are making excuses for someone elses behaviour when deep down you know you have done nothing wrong. You feel so powerless to do anything about it. I got accused of talking to other women, something I've never done or would even think about doing (the dirty) on a partner; I was horrified, but nothing I could do or say would convince her otherwise. The behaviour would quickly dissolve and she would move on like it was never said, but it hurts you. Things like this you have to show yourself how toxic the relationship was.
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abraxus
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2017, 05:19:19 PM »

I said well, i do this and this for you- she asked me if i wanted a medal? That, that was supposed to be how it was in a relationship.

Oh yeah, that's a big trap to fall into. Again, I used to just reverse it. She'd moan about something, and I'd say "yeah, I know, I'm pretty selfish and don't do much for you", even though I did a lot. And then she'd disagree with me and start defending me and say "no, not really, you can be bossy at times, but you're actually pretty kind to me".
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abraxus
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2017, 05:42:27 PM »

After so long though, they will realise they can't control you as they would wish, so they will back off, not being able to deal with it. You are not under their control, you are too strong for them. That is potentially a situation they cannot live with, and will get out.

To be honest, I always found the opposite. The more control I had, and the stronger I was, the happier and more content she seemed to be. It was only when I backed off that she'd act up, until I reasserted myself. That's true of pretty much all my relationships with BPD girls. They need to see strength and control, and get all edgy and uncomfortable without it, and so they'd act up to push for it, and calm down when you asserted it.

That doesn't mean it stops all conflict, as the thing is, you can't just maintain a situation where you have just a little more power, it has to be absolute and overwhelming to prevent conflict. This is true in most situations, not just with BPD.

Arguing and fighting is usually about a  power struggle.  As a result, the person in charge rarely starts it, because they don't need to, they're in charge. More often than not, it's the one with less power (real or perceived) who initiates it, in attempt to grab a bit more power. This often isn't because they want the power, or are being mean, and is just that they feel a bit insecure and vulnerable, and believe that gaining more control will fix that.

Understandably though, people will usually only grab for power when they think they have a realistic chance of winning, as few people choose to enter a fight they know they'll lose. What this means is that conflict is most likely to occur in relationships where the power balance is broadly equal, or the power gap isn't too large. However, once someone is clearly and unambiguously established as being in charge, then things settle down, as there's no point in fighting anymore, as not only is the outcome a forgone conclusion, but also that losing means conceding even more power, and so is self defeating.

The trick is to get them to understand why they're fighting you, and that you understand that they feel insecure and vulnerable, but that fighting you and losing will only make that feeling worse, and so it would be better if they talked to you when they felt that way, so you could reassure them instead.

Not sure if that makes sense, but it works.
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cubicinch
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2017, 06:05:33 PM »

To be honest, I always found the opposite. The more control I had, and the stronger I was, the happier and more content she seemed to be. It was only when I backed off that she'd act up, until I reasserted myself. That's true of pretty much all my relationships with BPD girls. They need to see strength and control, and get all edgy and uncomfortable without it, and so they'd act up to push for it, and calm down when you asserted it.

That doesn't mean it stops all conflict, as the thing is, you can't just maintain a situation where you have just a little more power, it has to be absolute and overwhelming to prevent conflict. This is true in most situations, not just with BPD.

Arguing and fighting is usually about a  power struggle.  As a result, the person in charge rarely starts it, because they don't need to, they're in charge. More often than not, it's the one with less power (real or perceived) who initiates it, in attempt to grab a bit more power. This often isn't because they want the power, or are being mean, and is just that they feel a bit insecure and vulnerable, and believe that gaining more control will fix that.

Understandably though, people will usually only grab for power when they think they have a realistic chance of winning, as few people choose to enter a fight they know they'll lose. What this means is that conflict is most likely to occur in relationships where the power balance is broadly equal, or the power gap isn't too large. However, once someone is clearly and unambiguously established as being in charge, then things settle down, as there's no point in fighting anymore, as not only is the outcome a forgone conclusion, but also that losing means conceding even more power, and so is self defeating.

The trick is to get them to understand why they're fighting you, and that you understand that they feel insecure and vulnerable, but that fighting you and losing will only make that feeling worse, and so it would be better if they talked to you when they felt that way, so you could reassure them instead.

Not sure if that makes sense, but it works.
maybe it does, maybe you have more experience with it than I do. That was what happened to me, but maybe if I'd known what you've stated that I needed to take control and show strength, change things, then maybe we could still be together. However it's too late, and Im not even sure it is something I would want to go back to.
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 06:14:03 PM »

maybe it does, maybe you have more experience with it than I do. That was what happened to me, but maybe if I'd known what you've stated that I needed to take control and show strength, change things, then maybe we could still be together. However it's too late, and Im not even sure it is something I would want to go back to.

Who knows, everyone's different and it would be wrong to say that all BPD women are the same. Maybe I was lucky, and I'm not sure if it's experience or the fact that I can be a bit of an a hole naturally, so it never bothered me much.

I wouldn't look back if I were you, as even if you could have done things differently, it's no fun having to pre think what you do or say to maintain a relationship. Far better to be with someone you can be yourself with, and not have to worry about all that stuff.
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2017, 07:08:41 PM »

Who knows, everyone's different and it would be wrong to say that all BPD women are the same. Maybe I was lucky, and I'm not sure if it's experience or the fact that I can be a bit of an a hole naturally, so it never bothered me much.

I wouldn't look back if I were you, as even if you could have done things differently, it's no fun having to pre think what you do or say to maintain a relationship. Far better to be with someone you can be yourself with, and not have to worry about all that stuff.
In my case I was dealing with a 45 year old (or so she told me) who was in menopause and also on prozac for depression. I later found out she had been on Hormone Replacement Therapy as well! And an adult life history of BPD type behaviour...   where do you go with all that? 
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We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



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