High IQ?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I had a very interesting conversation with pwBPD yesterday evening that  has had my wheels spinning all night. Generally the conversation went well, no arguing, lots of listening and validating where I could on my part. Still, I am finding myself once again hurt and frustrated this morning and uncertain how much of this is BPD and how much of it is my person being a prick.

First, my pwBPD has an extremely high IQ. The emotional side is a ___show, but there can be no denying that his ability to synthesize factual data and information is superb. When we were first hanging out he made a point of telling me frequently how nice it was to be with  someone who was fairly intelligent. And I ate it up because I have never felt that smart and have always struggled with that and... .you know, honeymoon period. (Ugh)

Last night he was talking about how he tries to keep his emotional stuff "simple" (if you want something, ask for it instead of being passive aggressive.) because he feels most of the time like he is Neo from the Matrix. That people spend all there time playing social mind games and manipulations and that none of it is real. That so few people see things that way and that the ones that do have high IQ's like he does. He went on to describe his dealings with a couple of his friends who are like minded and how finding them made him feel like he had found his people. Then he relayed a conversation with one of these friends where he essentially was told that the rest of the world had IQ's closer to monkeys than to him and that he should stop having expectations from people who aren't able to conceptualize what he can.

Does anyone see where this is going yet?

At any rate, at some point it was mentioned that he felt like I had "the potential" to be free from "the Matrix" but that I'm a lot less aware than he originally thought. He mentioned again that dealings with me are extremely painful for him and that's the only reason he ever lashes out. That dealing with me is painful because I'm so "self unaware".

All of this coming from a man who can't hold a job and who rages and tantrums like a 3 year old on a regular basis. And yet I was up all night beating myself up and then having to remind myself that I'm not the crazy one.

BPD? Narcissism? Both? Dude is a jackass?

Maybe I just need to vent. I guess the bottom line is that I am so tired of pouring so much time and energy into trying to improve things with somebody who apparently thinks that I have more in common with a monkey than with him. And yet if he senses me separating even the tiniest amount all hell breaks loose - it just makes no sense.

[Lalathegreat]

I had a very interesting conversation with pwBPD yesterday evening that  has had my wheels spinning all night. Generally the conversation went well, no arguing, lots of listening and validating where I could on my part. Still, I am finding myself once again hurt and frustrated this morning and uncertain how much of this is BPD and how much of it is my person being a prick.

First, my pwBPD has an extremely high IQ. The emotional side is a ___show, but there can be no denying that his ability to synthesize factual data and information is superb. When we were first hanging out he made a point of telling me frequently how nice it was to be with  someone who was fairly intelligent. And I ate it up because I have never felt that smart and have always struggled with that and... .you know, honeymoon period. (Ugh)

Last night he was talking about how he tries to keep his emotional stuff "simple" (if you want something, ask for it instead of being passive aggressive.) because he feels most of the time like he is Neo from the Matrix. That people spend all there time playing social mind games and manipulations and that none of it is real. That so few people see things that way and that the ones that do have high IQ's like he does. He went on to describe his dealings with a couple of his friends who are like minded and how finding them made him feel like he had found his people. Then he relayed a conversation with one of these friends where he essentially was told that the rest of the world had IQ's closer to monkeys than to him and that he should stop having expectations from people who aren't able to conceptualize what he can.

Does anyone see where this is going yet?

At any rate, at some point it was mentioned that he felt like I had "the potential" to be free from "the Matrix" but that I'm a lot less aware than he originally thought. He mentioned again that dealings with me are extremely painful for him and that's the only reason he ever lashes out. That dealing with me is painful because I'm so "self unaware".

All of this coming from a man who can't hold a job and who rages and tantrums like a 3 year old on a regular basis. And yet I was up all night beating myself up and then having to remind myself that I'm not the crazy one.

BPD? Narcissism? Both? Dude is a jackass?

Maybe I just need to vent. I guess the bottom line is that I am so tired of pouring so much time and energy into trying to improve things with somebody who apparently thinks that I have more in common with a monkey than with him. And yet if he senses me separating even the tiniest amount all hell breaks loose - it just makes no sense.

[Fian]

As a very intelligent person myself, I think he is just being narcissistic.  There are certainly times where it can be painful listening to an less intelligent person spend a lot of time saying something that could be said with much fewer words, but that is really a factor of time.  I have recently realized I have Asperger's and I am very time focused.  But regardless, you can always learn something from anyone.  And if he thinks we came from monkeys he is not as smart as he thinks - but I digress.

"Last night he was talking about how he tries to keep his emotional stuff "simple" (if you want something, ask for it instead of being passive aggressive.) because he feels most of the time like he is Neo from the Matrix. That people spend all there time playing social mind games and manipulations and that none of it is real."

I have to agree with him here.  I have this same issue with my BPDish wife (don't know that she has it, but she has a lot of behaviors).  If I ask her to do something for me, she feels bad, therefore I am being bad by asking.  So she tries to feel better about herself by controlling what I can ask and not ask.  I reject that.  My thinking is that I can ask for just about anything.  She is free to say yes or no.  As for the Matrix side of things, I definitely don't see it that way.  It does sound like he needs to spend more time listening and less time being self-absorbed with his own thoughts.

[DaddyBear77]

These feel like classic NPD traits to me:

DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:
- Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance.
- Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it.
- Exaggerating your achievements and talents.

I hear all the time about how my pwBPD has a verified high IQ (based on testing she took as a teenager). I also hear all the time that I'm "probably within a few points" of her IQ but not quite.

People have the right to believe whatever they want, though, and it does me no good to justify or argue about my intelegence vs hers. We both have strengths and weaknesses. And guess what? So do the people with low IQs. And so do the Einsteins who blow hers and mine and everyone else here out of the water. However, I heard an anecdote once about a brilliant kid who had a 4.3 GPA at an Ivy League school, but still had to call his mom to figure out how to open a can of soup.

[PeteWitsend]

I've read elsewhere that BPD and NPD are often intertwined and elements of each can and are often present in a person. 

I guess I'm saying that asking whether its BPD/NPD is a "Why not both?" situation.

sounds like the case here.

also, if I heard someone brag about their intelligence, and then saw/heard them dropping comments about The Matrix as though it was some profound work of philosophy, sociology, anthropology, etc. or offered some insightful view of the world, I'd think to myself: "Pseudo-intellectual alert!"

[MarvinTheRobot]

 I think the "wise" mind comes from both IQ and EQ.

 Someone may have lots of information and operate well in normal/calm environment, but when emotionally unstable this information does nothing to him and his actions are based mostly on instincts and coping mechanisms.

Warning to PeteWitsend, "Pseudo-intellectual" attempt follows

 As a programmer I can make an analogy with a program that functions well, but when the user starts "clicking" and typing randomly for example, bugs may occur and the program will not function this well and eventually may crash. Like Windows 95  

 As users we instead of blaming or cursing the program itself, which will not fix it. We can learn what not to click and input to it, so it operates normally for us. And if the program keeps crashing despite our attempts to not crash it, we need different software.

 This analogy helps me remind myself, that my approach should be not to try "fix" or get frustrated at something when I am not able, but instead try fix my interaction with it.

[PeteWitsend]

... .

Warning to PeteWitsend, "Pseudo-intellectual" attempt follows
... .

no worries... .I just had a pseudo-intellectual moment myself and remembered this thread.

it appears the week-and-a-half of relative calm (or as I now think of it "marital bliss" or "as good as it gets" has ended between my uBPDw and I.

the first sign trouble was coming was Sunday night... .wife came downstairs from putting kid#2 down and said "everyone's asleep" in a calm voice, and I said "You sound angelic."  she stopped and looked at me funny and said "What do you mean, angelic?"  I explained "like an angel... .you sounded very calm and peaceful.  I meant it as a compliment!" but I got a frown in return.

it pretty much went downhill from there.

Thinking about it today at lunch and told myself, "Wow, her reaction was like a glitch in The Matrix... .then I remembered slamming the movie in this thread.  d'oh.

For the record, I thought the first movie was good; 2 & 3 stunk.

[Lalathegreat]

LOL Pete - in complete agreement here! The first Matrix could not have been more amazing.

[formflier]

 I said "You sound angelic."  she stopped and looked at me funny  

My guess is that you invalidated her... .

or

Perhaps there was a "well... .don't I always sound that way" going on in her head.


One of the "rules" I've adopted (not sure if I've seen it in the lessons... .) is to avoid saying "You xyz... "  Even if it is a compliment.  

I try to make compliments in the form of "I like how that outfit matches... ." or "I like how that shows off your... xyz... ."

if there is an outfit I don't particularly like... .make it about the outfit and not her... .especially if you can "hide" it in a compliment.

"Wow... .I could look at you all day wearing that... .! Hey... .you know that brown outfit you wore yesterday?  Yeah... .that didn't do you any justice at all... . But this one here... wow... ."

Now... .I've been trying to figure out how to compliment the way she sounds... .unoffensively.  Honestly... .that's tougher... .

"Oh babe... .I like the way you sound.  Come over her and purr in my ear... ."  Not sure.  

Tone is a big issue in our relationship.  I get accused of it all the time... .bad tone... .and it's fruitless to ask her to adjust hers... .so I don't ask.

Back around to what you said to her... . Remember... there is what you said... and what she heard.

Pretty sure she heard... ."Wow... .you actually sound nice today... .I'm impressed... ."  Even though you didn't mean it that way... .or perhaps you did!      

FF

[apollotech]

Lala,

My ex has a high IQ as well, but she didn't handle close, personal, emotional, or intimate issues well. It took me awhile to understand that a high or average IQ does not translate into high or average emotional stability. When my ex deregulated, all bets were off, reason went out the window, replaced by emotion responses (much like a child). That was the arrested emotional development coming to the forefront, often times, very nastily.

[isilme]

I was told as a child I had a very high IQ, and my parents, "wise" as they were, told me I was smarter than my teachers... .so at age 7 I stopped listening to my teachers.  I never saw my test results, and only learned a range when in high school and my dad screamed at me, "How can someone with an IQ of XXX be so stupid!"

All a high IQ really means is you are decent at pattern recognition, and seeing certain trends.  I also have a form of dyslexia (my mother could not handle that "No child of mine has a learning disability.", so even though I could do math just fine, I get the answers wrong thanks to inversion of numbers.  I read very fast, but know that I had an issue, and so in the time my classmates were reading/writing one passage, I'd read and re-read a few times to make sure I'd not inverted anything. 

None of this helped with my emotional understand or interactions.  I learned sink-or-swim how to muddle through life - parents did not think to help me, and often sent me off on my own assuming I knew what they did, even as far back as kindergarten.  Lack of knowledge was met with derision and punishment if I embarrassed them by needing to ask a question or not already knowing perfectly how to do things.  I learned to stand back and watch other people, and figure out the pattern.  This got me through 9 schools and college, and into my professional career. 

I admit I DO get frustrated at times when people need something spelled out that I figured out from just read/watching others and seems simple - it always looks like they just weren't paying attention or listening to what's going on.  Or when they take forever to try to explain things themselves in what to me sounds like a confusing mess.  I get tasked a lot with giving workshops because I try to make people understand a variety of ways, quickly, with humor, and it seems to work.  I have been told recently on this board I may have some version of Asperger's myself. 

I don't think most people are consciously playing deep mind games.  I think they may have goals they think they can achieve through some teen-aged manipulations techniques, but most people are not characters from Frank Herbert's Dune, with plans within plans (if your pwBPD wants to wax poetic about sci-fi philosophy, bring 'em on!  I'll take 'em ).  People want thigns from each other.  Some never grow out of high school in how they interact to get them.  Some are still in junior high.  Some are quite smart with "book learning" but can't change a tire.  People tend towards the path of least resistance, and that's just humn nature and has little to do with intellgence or wisdom.

A pwBPD may insist that the reason they are frustrated with the world and so angry all the time is that they are super smart and everyone else is just too stupid to deal with them - and that would make anyone upset.  They may also look at the state of their lives and coping abilities, and feel the lack of not being able to hold jobs well, and the act of driving off friends and family, need to justify it, soothe their egos, and make themselves feel it's the world that's messed up, not them. 

And, a weird thing I realized with my H, I don't think a lot of pwBPD have a good internal monolog.  Like, they can't think things through to completion on their own, and NEED a person standing there to hear the tree of their thoughts fall into the woods for it to make a sound.  H can't work his way through things without talking about them.  He can't release anger without yelling at a person, even if that is not the person or thing that made him angry.  So they NEED to talk things out AT the person closest to them to feel like they actually felt/thought their own feelings.  So we end up having a lot of word-vomit tossed at us. just because they can't manage it on their own.  At least this seems true for H - does anyone else feel their pwBPD is like this?  Unable to process thoughts and emotions alone, needing you to be the sounding board for all of it? 

If this is true for the OP, their pwBPD was not really trying to be insulting (not totally, but they didn't care that they were, either), but trying to hear themselves talk about how awesome thy are and how even without a job and even while throwing tantrums, they are far supierior to everyone else, and that's the reason they rage.  Just an idea.