BPD Ex Girlfriend -- Splitting/Painted Black advise

[stamusic]

So I have the full story of our relationship on another post I done recently, but here's an update and I need your help.

After 8 incredible and beautiful months with my girlfriend, she dumped be about 5 days ago and was very very cold, like she has never been before to me. The past couple months had been rocky, but I never thought it would get to this stage... In these 5 days she has blocked me on all social media, deleted all photos of us together and today she texted me asking If she can arrange somebody to come pick up her stuff from my place this weekend.

I want nothing more than to have her back and work things through together. I've been doing tonsss of BPD research and feel strongly that she'll want me back eventually. Now she's sent this text, I'm more worried.
How do I respond to her text? Have I lost her for good?

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[Meili]

I'm sorry that you are going through all of this, and I wish that we could say whether or not she's gone forever with any sort of certainty. Unfortunately, we can't. At best, we can give you support and tools to give you the best chance of success.

There are no guarantees here or systematic approaches that will bring her back. What there does exist are best chances. Those consist of you becoming the most attractive you possible and tools to utilize if she does want to re-engage with you.

Once removed and abraxus gave you great advice in your other thread about how to handle all of this. Being bright, light, and for the most part, mirror her tenor and mood. Begging, pleading, and smothering her with love will likely serve only to damage your self-esteem and push her away further.

[stamusic]

Okay so I replied and she was blunt as hell and a bit rude and frustrated, but I figured my approach was to be lighthearted and not seem effected by her bluntness (which she KNOWS would usually bug the crap outta me)
 
Here's the convo.

                      
GF: Is it cool if i arrange for someone to collect my stuff?                        
ME: Sure                      
GF: Thanks, will likely be sunday if thats good                        
ME: Should be fine                        
GF: Thanks                        
ME: Saturday is better for me actually                      
GF: Working saturday                        
ME: Only day I’m home, I'm afraid                    
GF: You just said sunday was okay                        
ME: Remembered I’m out that day innit                        
GF: Right...                        
ME: Lemme know any other day you could do
GF: Either way youre gonna make this difficult                        
ME: Nah, I know you need your stuff. Just need to work out what’s best reaally!                        
GF: Yeh, ill bring ur stuff too so                        
ME: Cool thanks                        
GF: No worries. Youve got a lot of stuff at mine... Record player aswell                        
GF: Think Amys gonna drop and pick up                        
ME: Okay, no prob. Just name a day whenever                        
GF: Saturday.                        
ME: Cool, hopefully the evening is good. Out in the morning and early afternoon                        
GF: Youre just taking the piss now                        
GF: You know i work in the evening                        
ME: Nahhh early evening is fine                        
ME: I’ll be home at like 4                        
GF: I start at 5                        
GF: Stop mugging me off.                        
ME: She can pick my stuff up at likeee half 3 or 4, then swing by mine just before you leave                  
ME: I ain’t mugging you off, honest haha                        
GF: Just forget it, making it difficult.                        
ME: Nopeee I’m not on purpose, swear haha Got a new job and I only have saturday and sunday evenings free                        
ME: Just whenever is easiest for you, I’m more than fine with                        
ME: well, finish at half 2 anyways those days                        
GF: Right.                        
ME: It’s only handing out leaflets, but still hahah                       
GF: Good for you                        
ME: Cheeeers                        
ME: If you need anyone to talk to, ya know where to find me  

[Meili]

Why does she have to be off work for her friend to pick things up? That doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, we'll never know what she's thinking, but we do know that listening with empathy and validating (or at least not being invalidating) can go a long way to smooth things out.

Sometimes we are very invalidating when we don't even know it. I was really bad about that. Then, I stumbled across the article on Validation Skill - Stop Invalidating Others and learned just how invalidating I can be!

I get why you said the things that you said in that you were trying to be light-hearted and work with her. I'm not saying that you did anything wrong, and she didn't appear too upset by what you said, but we can use your discussion as an example of how we can easily invalidate.

GF: You just said sunday was okay                       
ME: Remembered I’m out that day innit                       
GF: Right...                        
ME: Lemme know any other day you could do

It could be viewed that you basically just blew her off here and told her that she was not important.

That position is bulstered by her response of:

GF: Either way youre gonna make this difficult                       

To which you turned around and told her that she was wrong, thus invalidating her when you said:

ME: Nah, I know you need your stuff. Just need to work out what’s best reaally!                       

Then, you turned continued the same behavior:

GF: Youre just taking the piss now                       
GF: You know i work in the evening                       
ME: Nahhh early evening is fine                       
ME: I’ll be home at like 4                       
GF: I start at 5                       
GF: Stop mugging me off.                       

<snip>

ME: I ain’t mugging you off, honest haha                       

She let you know her thoughts about your responses when she said:

GF: Just forget it, making it difficult.                       

And, again, rather than taking the opportunity that she was giving you to validate her feelings and be empathetic with what she was experiencing, you again decided it was better to tell her that she was wrong:

ME: Nopeee I’m not on purpose, swear haha Got a new job and I only have saturday and sunday evenings free                       

She even let you know how she viewed what you were doing with this exchange:

ME: Just whenever is easiest for you, I’m more than fine with                          
ME: well, finish at half 2 anyways those days                       
GF: Right.                       

She gave you several opportunities to change the direction of the discussion and for you to show her something different. The closest that I can see that you came was when you said:

I know you need your stuff.

To be honest, part of me agrees with her. You kept telling her that you would work with her and whatever is easiest for her, and then would turn around tell her no because it didn't work within your schedule.

Does all of that make sense?

[stamusic]

Yikes... Yes, makes a lot of sense. It's all so new and confusing to me!

Here's the end of the conversation. What do you think of this? Seems it may be a while until she contacts me, or maybe she won't at all and genuinely doesn't want me in her life anymore?

GF: Im just in a really foul mood and if i talk to you ill end up being a ___ and i dont mean to be                        
GF: Sorry                        
ME: That’s more than fine, honest! Just know when you are ready and comfortable, always here                       
GF: I just think its easier for us both if we dont talk tbh sorry                       
ME: I understand, it’s okay                       
GF: If we carry on talking its gonna be harder to move on                       
ME: Okay, that’s fair. I’m just focusing on work and not thinking about relationships for a long while. So as a friend, it’s okay to talk to me... whether in a few months or years                         
GF: Thats up to you whether you get into a relationship or whatever to be honest. But thanks, same to you                       
ME: Cool, all good then. Just take care, beaut  xo

I feel as if this convo was the end of the end for the relationship. I know she has this side of her where she doesn't want me to be hurt so much that she just wants me to stay out of her life.
What if it's been several months and she still has not contacted me - do I contact her first casually? Does she not want me in her life at all anymore?

This is all so new and confusing. And of course very painful.
I know she deeply loves me as I do love her, it's just her pain with BPD that's doing all.

[Meili]

Believe me, I completely understand it all being new and unnatural. We are not taught to communicate in this way. It takes a lot of practice! The good thing is that you can practice with anyone with whom you communicate. Listening with empathy, not invalidating, and validating are skills that enhance every communication that we have with others.

As for the end of the conversation with your gf, I think that we can see that she had an emotional response to all of it.

What do you think would happen if you were to open up the lines of communication by helping her feel safe when she talks to you?

Is it possible for you to be empathetic to what she was telling you, or do you think that it's too late?

Either way, can you write here what you think would show her that you have empathy for her and validate what she was telling you that she felt?

If you have not done so yet, perhaps reading the lessons Listen with Empathy and Don't be Invalidating would help.

Remember, people who present BPD traits can be highly emotionally sensitive people who need to feel safe. If you want her to feel safe with you, you have to create a safe environment for her.

[stamusic]

I reckon if we were to talk again, I would be far more aware of my responses and be prepared to show her my empathy and not be invalidating. In this time away, I would really love to know the right tools and teach myself as much as possible and practice on other people. Let's just hope it all goes to great use and she wants to contact me again.

Her response to me doing so completely depends on her mood, but knowing her as I do, I no doubt know that she would reply very well and calm.

If I had a 'do-over' from that conversation, what would be the best reply to her asking "is it cool if I arrange for someone to pick up my stuff?"
How should I have gone about this?

[Meili]

You can look the right of this page and find the basic tools in the sidebar. They are a great place to start.

I think that the response to "is it cool if I arrange for someone to pick up my stuff?" was just fine. It was the other parts that I pointed out.

What do you think that she was trying to tell you in each of the sections that I pointed out?

[stamusic]

Perhaps she was trying to let me know that she still wants to feel important, and be the main priority. Which is where I did wrong and devaluated her, as if she wasn't important to me.

Reading back, it does seem much more obvious that my responses were not too great and the approach was very belittling.
At the time, I must admit I was very shaky and my thoughts were everywhere since that was the first text since the breakup and it hurt a lot when she texted that.
I realise I must not be too quick to answer, and really understand what she is trying to say by validating and empathising with her.

An hour after that last text, she has since sent me this. Did I respond better? I hope I wasn't too patronising.

                       
GF: Im sorry im being a dick                         
GF: I dont mean it ok                       
GF: But its best for us both to go our seperate ways                       
GF: I have a really short temper at the moment and im just easily annoyed                       
ME: You’re not being a dick, never have been. You’re going through loads and have a lot on your plate, I get that. I’ll never understand fully, but that’s okay too. You’ve never done anything wrong, promise                       
GF: Ive been really cold and nasty to you                       
GF: You dont deserve that                       
GF: Im still here for you as a friend but you just need some time to move on, and i do too                       
ME: I know, That's really sweet of ya. You're the most considerate and beautiful person I'll ever know, inside and out                         
GF: Im not though                         
GF: I just cant help being a ___ lately                       
GF: Its not just to you though                       
GF: Ive been the same to everyone                       
ME: It's just how you're feeling. The way you're expressing your feelings doesn't define you as a ___                       
ME: It's okay to let out how you feel                       
GF: My mum knows i can be such a cold person at times, but i dont mean it ... .and ill beat myself up over it later                       
ME: I understand that, it's just how you feel and it's okay that you can't help how you act out. It's nothing you should beat yourself up about, you're allowed to express yourself                         
ME: The most important thing is that you're working on yourself and know that you WILL be the person you want to become one day                       
GF: Just dont ever think i hate you                       
GF: As cold as i can be                       
GF: I dont                       
ME: Believe me, I know                         
ME: Im too cute for you to ever be hateful towards me                         
GF: Hahah


You can see clear how sweet she is and it pains me.
She keeps repeating herself saying things such as "You don't deserve me" "You need to move on" "it's best we go our separate ways"... But how can I let her know, and make sure she understands that I'm here for her without being pushed away again.


I've been asking so many questions - you have no idea how much I appreciate your help! You're an absolute star Meili! xox

[stamusic]

[Meili]

That's awesome! Can you see the difference in how she responded? Sure, it can probably use some polish (on both sides), but this is new stuff for you (both).

Yes, she is pushing you away. It's up to you whether or not to allow her to do that.

How do you let her know that you're not going anywhere? That happens over time and being consistently safe for her.

I would strongly advise not saying anything about relationships (with her or anyone else) for a while unless she brings it up to you.

She's mentioned several times that she's struggling with moving on from you. Allow her to feel that. Be as bright, light, and attractive as you can. Have interesting things to talk to her about because you are doing interesting things (of course, this means that you actually have to do interesting things.  ). Leave all of the mushy stuff out unless she brings it up, then just mirror her and follow her lead. Don't push lest you risk pushing her away.

I know all of that is going to be hard to do in the moment. Your anxiety levels will peak and your heart will race. I'll put this before you though, I bet that you feel that way at the beginning of most relationships, no? This is a new beginning, let it be just that. Let the old die and allow the new to come in.

Again, you have to bring the new though... .the new skills... .the new dynamics.

Keep up the good work and don't stop reading and learning!

[stamusic]

Amazing, wonderful advice!

I was so scared and deflated before going to this site, thinking it is the end. But you have made this fascinating and really exciting for me (Yes... Exciting!). Like you said, it's like starting fresh, like a new relationship and trying to get the girl to fancy me.

You say it is up to me whether I let her push me away. Does this mean, me giving up or deciding to keep going with my research and practicing the communication techniques?

[Meili]

You say it is up to me whether I let her push me away. Does this mean, me giving up or deciding to keep going with my research and practicing the communication techniques?

More or less, yes. We get to choose how we respond to things. My ex tried to push me away out of fear (both abandonment and engulfment). I didn't allow it. I'm still standing right where I was, living my life, and doing my thing.

I didn't run from her. I didn't chase her either as she moved further away. She gets to make her choices, and I get to make mine.

[stamusic]

Good on you! That's how it should be. Must always remember how important we really are and not get caught up in too much attacking from your partner or anybody else. Our health is key.

[stamusic]

Hey folks,
Here's an update on my relationship and how the conversation has been going. It's all pretty self explanatory - she texted me out of the blue this morning since it seemed she just wanted to reach out (despite saying it's best her and I didn't talk at all anymore). Then the convo rolled into her mentioning she met up with her ex on Monday (an ex who treated her like CRAP), though saying (as if reassuring me) nothing happened between them. Here's the convo anyways... .

GF: Yoo                        
ME: Yoo, how ya doing?                        
GF: Good thanks youuu                        
ME: All good taaaa. What you up to today?                        
GF: Going out later to watch the wrestling , been trying to make friends on tinder  people are weird          
GF: You?                        
ME: I’m certain tinder ain’t the place for friends haha                        
ME: Just playing guitar and recording all dayyy                        
GF: Ive met plenty of friends on there last time i used it...                         
GF: Just friends i rarely talk too                        
ME: Haha ohhh I gotcha. Actually a good idea for new friends, might av a look too                      
GF: Whats that?                        
GF: Oh i misread haha                        
ME:  so where the wrestling playing tonight? Same place as last time ?                        
GF: Yep                        
ME: Niceee, cool venue                        
GF: It isss                        
ME: Have funnn!                        
GF: Thank yaaa                        
ME:                  
GF: Wont really be drinking... .drank on monday... stuff got weird                        
ME: Ah dearrr, wanna talk about what happened?                        
GF: Haha im sure you wouldnt like it so                        
ME: You don’t have to tell me if you don’t wanna                        
GF: Just hung out with *ex's name*, got drunk, had some pretty deep convos, nothing happened with us though, just spoke about a lottt                        
ME: That’s okay, I understand you wanted to talk to someone                        
GF: Yepp, we ended up talking a lot about what happened with me and her though, She opened up a lot... .she didnt cheat on me either, so thats cool                       
ME: That’s good then, at least you’re making friends                        
GF: Well not making friends we were already friends  but yeahh                        
ME: Ah that’s good! Surrounding yourself with good people is the best thing for ya                        
GF: Best thing for me?                        
ME: Sorry, meant surrounding yourself with positive people. It’ll will have a positive effect on you too                      
GF: Youre sounding too much like a therapist dude                        
ME: Haha sorry sorryyy                        
ME: Gonna hang out again today?                        
GF: I dont surround myself with overly positive people because i feel too out of placeeee                        
GF: And hang out with who?                        
ME: Makes sense, overly positive peeps are too cheesy haha                        
ME: Hang out with *Ex's name*                        
GF: Its not even that, i just feel like its not realistic for me to be so positive all the time. I dont like perfectionnn                        
GF: Nah wont be hanging out for a while                        
ME: Of course, perfection doesn’t even exist innitttt                        
ME: What made ya reach out to her?                                        
GF: Didnt really reach out, we always spoke and that, she was having a bad time so i suggested we go for drinks                                            
ME: Ah that’s good of youuu                                                
GF: yepppp im a good buddyyy                        
ME: You are gurrrrl                                              
GF: Wait what happened to your pic?                                            
ME: Watcha mean?                                              
GF: Whys it of us                        
ME: It’s cute, why not                       
GF: Its awks haha                  
ME: It’s only awks if you make it awks                       
GF: No its awks because we aint together and everyones still gonna think we are lool                      
ME: Wait we're not together?                      
GF: Funny                        
ME: Jks fineeee I'll change it lool                                              
GF: Okayyyy                        
ME: How bout that funny pun I sent ya a few days ago                        
GF: Kneeson?                        
ME: Exactly                       
GF: Lol                        

During the whole convo my heart was practically beating  out my chest and the thought of her hanging out with her ex made me want to throw up. But using the skills I have learnt, I put them into use (even though she called me out on 'acting like a therapist' which is when I loosened up a little.

So why is she telling me quite out of the blue that she met up with her ex? Does she feel guilty?
She wants to make it blatant clear to me we're not together anymore and don't want people to think we are. Why would she say this?

Thanks in advance xx

[Meili]

Trying to figure out the motivations of others is futile. It could be anything from she wanted you to know what she's doing and that nothing nefarious happened to she was abducted by aliens who wear tin foil hats and they forced her to do it. You'll never know the true answer. You can only accept that it happened.

If you're going to examine the exchange, you should be looking at it from the standpoint of how you responded and your motivations for doing so.

When I was in a similar situation, I danced along the line between being my ex's friend and trying to re-engage on a romantic level. Ultimately, this did not serve me well because I fell on the friend side of the line and got to hear about her exploits with other men. It wasn't until I refused to be in that position any longer that she stopped doing that. I had to learn that there is a difference between being friendly and being a friend.

Some of what you have written seems to be dancing along that same line.

[stamusic]

You're right, thank you.

I'll be sure to tell her straight up that I would rather not hear about it. I guess I got too carried away with being validating and whatnot, and forgot about the whole 'stand my ground' point.

I hope I can come back from this.

[Meili]

uummm... .maybe not telling her straight-up, but rather showing her where your boundary lies? Have you defined that boundary yet?

Telling her could create confrontation. We want to avoid making things worse. Defining and maintaining boundaries helps keep us safe and also helps to teach them what is acceptable to us without making it something to fight over.

[stamusic]

We haven't discussed boundaries or even our 'friendship'/relationship at all yet.

How can this be brought up?

[Meili]

That's the beautiful thing about boundaries, they do not need to be discussed! Our boundaries are for us, no one else. No one even needs to know what they are until they have pushed against them to the point where we are beyond simply maintaining them and have to defend them.

I have a boundary that has to do with people calling me names. If they do, I politely ask them to stop. If they persist, I leave the conversation. If they follow, and persist, then I must defend that boundary. At no point have I told them that their behavior is unacceptable, or given them an ultimatum. I have merely defined my boundary and allowed it to guide my actions. Boundaries about us, not about other people.

Now is probably not a good time to bring up any talk of a romantic relationship with her. If she brings it up, then it makes sense to talk to her about it. If she doesn't, then your bringing it up would be chasing and putting undue pressure on her.

Instead, you can decide what is acceptable to you (your boundary) and work with that. If she is just treating you as a friend, and you don't want to just be her friend, then step away. If you're comfortable just being a friend, then do that. Or, anything in between along that spectrum.

[stamusic]

Great advice, thanks.
I am still understanding what my boundary is. She has never called me any harsh names, though has a couple times told me that what I am saying is stupid. That's one boundary. Any other negative response she has ever had towards me is just being cold and blunt, but that's not something that is in my hands to deal with with.
I guess with my situation being a little different since she is not aggressive or mean to me in anyway, it's understanding what other boundaries I can involve in the relationship. What other boundaries do you have?

I'm not entirely comfortable being her friend, since it kills me talking to her. Though she did say last week she didn't want us to talk to eachother anymore at all or even be friends so we can 'move on', yet over the week she will start up little chit-chat conversations as a way of 'checking in' which don't last very long since she goes from a great mood to cold after a short time. This is fine, since I understand this is part of her BPD, but if it's been 2+ months and the relationship with her is still like that... .yikes. 
Is there a way I can make it clear to her that I will support her and be here for her now, but I can't be her friend forever if it will only ever be friends?
My luck in the past with women, is I have always been friendzoned. So there's no way now I'm letting it happen again.

[Meili]

I have a lot of different boundaries with a lot of different people. The commonality between them all is that my boundaries are there to protect my core values and belief about myself. Certain people have more power to hurt me than others, so I'll let some get away with things that others cannot. If that makes sense.

I was worried about the friend-zone thing happening, which is why I pointed out the difference between being friendly and friends.

Others may have a different view on this, and I'd love to hear opposing views, but my take on it is that there is no reason to vocalize it to her at all. Doing so would be a form of control or manipulation IMHO. It would be an ultimatum. "Look, either we're romantically involved or we're not. I can't do the friend thing with you." forces her to make a choice.

By politely walking away from a "friend zone" discussion, changing the subject, or even telling her that you're not comfortable talking about a subject when it comes up, allows her the freedom to make her choices without you having to control the situation. Does that make sense? I know that there is a very fine line there, but there is a line.

One is about controlling how another acts by forcing, the other is opening the door to an entire spectrum of possibilities by teaching her what you are and are not willing to accept in your world.

[once removed]

hey stamusic, thought id respond here. its best to keep things in one thread at a time.

i agree with Meili that a lot of this is driving toward friendship territory. it makes sense that she would ask for space and then send mixed signals - the attachment is intact, and friendship is safer than romance.

but as you say, youre not comfortable being just her friend. so, simply put, dont be available as just a friend. she tested the waters by warning you that you might not want to hear what she said - i suggest next time take her up on that warning, without reacting obviously about it. "oh, okay."

you dont want to be a shoulder to cry on or someone for her to talk about her problems with, at least not right now. like meili said, its probably best not to be overt, or to tell her that. simply dont be available for it.

[stamusic]

All makes sense, thank you both.
These fine lines are so fine it's so difficult to notice when pushing too much and crossing that line.
Practice will come with time, and I will of course get better with this.
I feel as if she's mostly reaching out to me as a form of comfort, but also because she has nobody else to talk to, even if it is just short small talk.
With the next conversation with her, I'll plan on pulling myself back more. Though if I were to write short texts, she will call me out and say something like "are you okay?" or "are you mad at mad at me?", then if I respond with "yeah, I'm all good" she'll say "hmm" and leave it at that. Will me being more reserved and having short conversations with her leaving her thinking something is wrong, push her away and give up all together?

[once removed]

thats another fine line. you dont want to be obviously distant. that can get manipulative and she also may see right through it.

this is less about sending a message to her, and more about what kind of relationship youre willing to have with her vs the kind of relationship youre unwilling to have, and thats where your boundaries come in. not changing her behavior, but changing yours.

if she does ask? youre distracted. youre busy (dont use those words). if she says "hmm", let her. leave it at that.

[stamusic]

She usually can see right through me and will point out straight away if I'm being even a little too empathetic or a tiny bit distant.
I'm still trying to even sink in that her and I have broken up, so understanding the kind of relationship I want with her in this moment... I'm not 100% sure. I want to be there for her of course and If she wants to have some chitchat, sure. But not be too overt as you say, and too keen.

It's unknown until the days, weeks or months go on. So I'll take it as it comes... or take each text as it comes.