Validation/invalidation is hard to understand

[Breathe066]

Am I just stupid or do other people have problems understanding the subtleties of validation and invalidation?
I read the article on this site and just shook my head. I tried to validate my BPD husband, but I think he knew what I was doing and resented it because he would become even more angry. He would make some absurd accusation and I would try to validate the feeling if not the accusation. I would say "Baby, I can see you're really upset and stressed out and I am so sorry for that. I didn't (fill in the blank). I can understand you being anxious, but I assure you it didn't happen."
Apparently, that wasn't the validation he sought (this is just a random example) because he would respond angrily that he needed me to see why he would THINK that.
I didn't actually understand why he would think that, the accusations never made any sense and I didn't want to lie or violate my own integrity by pretending to understand what I did not, however I did empathize with the emotions. When I said "I don't understand, but I am trying very hard to understand because I love you," he would say I was "playing games."
Any insights into validation/invalidation?

[once removed]

I didn't (fill in the blank). I can understand you being anxious, but I assure you it didn't happen."

this is an example of invalidating. its tricky because youre responding to an allegation, and its easy to fall into the trap of JADEing. you also dont want to validate the invalid.

validation isnt everything, either, and it can be way too easy to sound robotic or therapist like (it takes practice for it to become natural), and no one likes that. the emphasis is really on not invalidating.

and by the way, these are great communication skills for anyone in your life. i use them all the time. boy did my life get easier when i started learning not to JADE.

[Tlw300300]

I think this works if the other person has accepted that they are BPD. My experience with an untreated BPD is the only way they will feel validated is if you agree with them. My BPD does all those things you describe. 

[Breathe066]

Once Removed,
So, using this example, how would I manage not to invalidate? Let's say he believed that I was flirting with a waiter because it turned out the waiter went to school with my son and so we had briefly exchanged pleasantries. He seethes until we must hurriedly ask for the check and leave because he's beginning to get drunk and loudly demand that I just go in the kitchen and bend over for the waiter.
The idea that's causing him pain is that he believes I have some interest in the waiter.
What should I say that would not JADE?

[once removed]

its hard, and personally i dont know what i would say. i dealt with accusations of cheating myself. i wasnt patient or gentle about it, either.

the key is really not making matters worse. the other is that you dont have to respond to false accusations, denying them more than once just tends to fuel the fire. thats where boundaries come in. sometimes taking a timeout is necessary.

there were also times where i probably landed on what was a "good" method, but things would escalate after i tried it once or twice and id become exasperated. often times when we change our behavior, or dont give the reaction our partner is seeking, they will escalate. its called an extinction burst. usually, over time, they cool down, our partner learns to self soothe.

and again, none of this is easy, and the tools on the Improving board are no guarantee. it sounds like your husband was particularly difficult. public outbursts like that are really hard to deal with and alcohol certainly doesnt help.

you might also find some value in this workshop here, on how to deal with a jealous partner: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

[vortex of confusion]

Something else to keep in mind is the toxicity levels in the relationship.

If I am completely honest, the relationship between ex and I became so toxic that it became impossible for either of us to do anything and have the other see it as validating. I would try the ideas on the staying forum but I just could not hide the fact that I thought what he was saying and doing was complete crap.

My words (validating) did not match my actions (body language). I was saying nice things with words. I think my body language screamed something completely different no matter how hard I tried. I just couldn't be okay with what had transpired in our relationship. The more I tried to ignore things or sweep them under the rug or understand him, the worse it got.

I think that is one of the things that makes validation and invalidation so difficult. It focuses on how to use words to validate or not invalidate. There are times that somebody can invalidate something with nothing but a look. If a person rolls his/her eyes or has a sarcastic tone, then it is no longer validating.

[Breathe066]

Once Removed and VoC,
Your experience and mine have been similar in terms of "landing on a method that worked"--but although it worked once it might not work again. Taking time out worked for us until it didn't. I would think we were okay. We would go to bed and I would be far too emotionally rattled to want sex. He would lie next to me seething--I could feel it even though I couldn't see him in the dark, and then he would jump out of bed, chain smoke outside, come back in, lie down, huff and puff angrily, finally jump out of bed and say "F#ck this! I'm leaving!" and out the door he would go. Over and over again. Even if the original offense, whatever he believed it to be, had supposedly been dealt with, the fact that I was not eager for sex after the emotional and verbal abuse created yet another conflict: "You don't want me! Is it because you're getting it somewhere else?" Oh how many times I wanted to scream "No! It's because I would have to be as insane as you to want sex after the row we just had! How on earth could I make myself vulnerable after that?"
VoC, I agree about the toxicity levels. Obviously, our relationship was extremely toxic. He was verbally and emotionally abusive when he was having what I call "an episode." There were so many situations that simply didn't allow for validation or not invalidating. So many that simply defied any method at all.
I will never forget one of the most painful experiences was when he had complained quite dramatically that he didn't feel I actually cared about him during sex. This came as news to me since I did everything he wanted. He had begun the intimacy in our relationship by saying he really wasn't that into having oral sex performed on him, that was something he'd liked more when he was younger. On this particular night, however, he used the lack of oral sex as an example of my not caring about what he wanted.
The next night, when I had calmed down from the row, I initiated performing OS on him with tenderness and care. A few minutes into it he snarled "Stop! All I can think about is how many d***s you've had in your mouth!"
And he left, yet again.
I cried so much that night. I felt so humiliated and so hurt for days and days over that. He became angry that I was hurt. This was not uncommon and he had a real knack for turning the offense around on me. In that case, he said "Well, am I just supposed to say nothing about what I think? Am I supposed to just say nothing when what you are doing upsets me?"
I went to my therapist a few days later and she said that what he had done was in fact emotional abuse, a more stable partner would have known that during the act itself was not the time to express concerns and there were many more ways to express them than the one he had chosen. He has chosen the words he used for the express purpose of hurting and humiliating me.
I didn't go anywhere near performing OS on him for many months until he finally asked why I wouldn't and I recapped that awful episode. He was surprised it had bothered me so much. He said he'd just been upset at the time.
The brutality that I have endured is only just beginning to sink in. I was so isolated that there was no one to talk with other than my therapist and he stopped me from seeing her, too.
The awful frustration of combing over events and thinking about whether I invalidated him when in fact I was putting up with so much is just confusing. And more painful.

[vortex of confusion]

Your experience and mine have been similar in terms of "landing on a method that worked"--but although it worked once it might not work again.

I used a lot of parenting stuff on ex. It is like the little kid that loves the flying spoon for eating one day and the next day the flying spoon scares him. I kept trying to build up my tool box of tools to try to figure out what would work. I am sure that ex must have felt pretty invalidated by the fact that I had resorted to treating him like a child because that seemed to be one thing that actually worked.

Even if the original offense, whatever he believed it to be, had supposedly been dealt with, the fact that I was not eager for sex after the emotional and verbal abuse created yet another conflict: "You don't want me! Is it because you're getting it somewhere else?" Oh how many times I wanted to scream "No! It's because I would have to be as insane as you to want sex after the row we just had! How on earth could I make myself vulnerable after that?"

In my relationship, I don't think anything was ever truly dealt with because there would be lots of talking yet very little ever changed. He could talk about how he was feeling with impunity. If I would try to talk about mine, he would cut me off. My favorite was when he would say mean things and then say, "I am just trying to share my feelings." if I would get upset because of something he said.

Obviously, our relationship was extremely toxic. He was verbally and emotionally abusive when he was having what I call "an episode." There were so many situations that simply didn't allow for validation or not invalidating. So many that simply defied any method at all.

In hindsight, I realize that I did invalidate him. I don't feel like I had much other choice. I could no longer go along with what he was doing. I could no longer sit by and NOT say something. There are things that I went along with in an effort to keep him happy that I should have said NO way, no how, nuh uh, not gonna happen. I think things were okay with us as long as I was validating him and not questioning him or puttin him an uncomfortable position. In other words, I invalidated him by asking him to do stuff that is part of being a father, husband, and grown up. When I started asking for me, I invalidated him. That wasn't my intent at all. My intent was to get some help around the house and get some help with the kids because watching him play video games or do his own thing all evening was a bit frustrating. There was no way I could find a way to validate his desire to play his video games all evening. Even when I tried, it came out as pure snark.

He became angry that I was hurt. This was not uncommon and he had a real knack for turning the offense around on me. In that case, he said "Well, am I just supposed to say nothing about what I think? Am I supposed to just say nothing when what you are doing upsets me?"

That kind of stuff is very confusing and very hurtful. Ex did similar to me with regards to his porn use in the early days. He was the one that would get up super early so he could look at porn and take care of himself. I would say something to him and he would get upset with ME. How could I possibly be hurt or bothered by that? I was being ridiculous for taking it personal. He was doing me a favor by letting me sleep. So many times, my sleep was used against me. Oh, I was letting you sleep like I was some kind of lazy bum that wanted to do nothing but sleep.

The awful frustration of combing over events and thinking about whether I invalidated him when in fact I was putting up with so much is just confusing. And more painful.

  I feel like part of ex's tactic was too put the focus on me so that I wouldn't notice what he was doing or not doing. If he painted me out to be really demanding or really critical, he knew that I would get busy trying to fix it or work on it. If I know that I have hurt somebody or am doing something hurtful, I will do my best to try to change what I am doing. That is the way I am and he knows it. He used my own weaknesses against me. I feel like he exploited my own insecurities like the fact that I vowed to NOT be a nagging wife like my mother. So, he would paint me out to be like her so I would try harder to be nicer. He knew what areas that I acknowledged as my weakness and then proceeded to exploit them. So yeah, I did start invalidating the heck out of him because there was very little to validate.

[Breathe066]

Right. It just eventually gets to the point that you either sweep it under the rug, which won't work. You try not to invalidate, which will lead to more of his immature, selfish, abusive behavior, or you invalidate, which will lead to more of his immature, selfish, abusive behavior.
Your bit about how, if you talked about things in the relationship that bothered you, he would become angry, sounds so familiar. Looking back, early on, I would tell him about things that bothered me, but as his fits escalated, I became very hesitant to do so. In fact, he would use those few early instances where he had done something, he felt, to accommodate my concerns (cutting off the crazy woman who kept offering to have the "dark, dangerous sex" she claimed I "wouldn't understand," for  example) as examples of how he had really sacrificed what he wanted to make me happy.
Everytime I think about that woman now, I smile. She can have him. But what's really funny is that she'd have to be on the wrong side of the law to be more adventurous in bed than we were. 

[vortex of confusion]

Looking back, early on, I would tell him about things that bothered me, but as his fits escalated, I became very hesitant to do so.

I don't recall him having fits in the early days. In the early days, it was more of him turning it around where I would feel bad for him and would push my feelings aside. The one that sticks out most was when he lost his job because he got caught looking at porn at work. I was very upset. Somehow, I ended up feeling bad for him and coddling him. Forget the impact that it had on me. That was never really addressed or acknowledged.

In fact, he would use those few early instances where he had done something, he felt, to accommodate my concerns (cutting off the crazy woman who kept offering to have the "dark, dangerous sex" she claimed I "wouldn't understand," for  example) as examples of how he had really sacrificed what he wanted to make me happy.

I had similar experiences. At the end, especially, things got really weird. I would catch him posting ads and would get upset. He would cut them off and be all, "I did this just for you." The odd thing was that he did this in the context of an "open" relationship so he had no reason to lie to me about what he was doing. He would lie about looking for other women while telling me how much he wanted me, blah, blah, blah. I was seeing someone and he would use that as an excuse to lie to me by saying he was doing the same thing that I was. Um, no. He wasn't doing the same thing. He was lying about what he was doing. He was telling me one thing while doing another. The agreement that he and I had was that we would let each other know what was going on. I did not start seeing the person I was seeing until ex talked to the other guy. The only way I ever got to talk to any of the ladies ex was chasing was through crazy means. I could never seem to explain the difference between what he was doing and what I was doing. It led to circular discussions and ex cutting people off to prove something to me. He didn't understand that it had zero impact because he would just find somebody else the next day.

She can have him. But what's really funny is that she'd have to be on the wrong side of the law to be more adventurous in bed than we were.  

This made me laugh out loud. Ex would be hard pressed to find somebody more adventurous than me. There were things that he said he wasn't interested in yet I found out that he was telling these other women that he was interested in it. It made no sense to me how he would tell me he was bored and that I didn't float his  boat, blah, blah, blah yet he would tell those other women that I refused to have sex with him. He would tell them that he was interested in all sorts of things that he told me didn't float his boat.

Oh, and the ultimate irony is that ex is a sex addict and attends 12 step meetings for it yet he used to tell me that I wanted it too much and that he couldn't keep up with me. Talk about super confusing.

[Breathe066]

More similarities. My ex told me that his ex-wife was extremely inhibited and rarely wanted sex, and if she did want sex, it had to be strictly hand-job-in-the-dark. Imagine my surprise when I was helping him move in with me and opened a box in their old closet that was jampacked with more sex toys (for women) than Ron Jeremy's tool shed.
I have come to the oddly comforting conclusion that we exes have probably been similarly mis-characterized by him, just as we were similarly seduced and abused by him.