I have a schedule mediation date in three weeks.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Good afternoon, everyone

Thank you for all of you that responded to my "She called the Cops on me" thread.  I appreciate all the advise and encouragement.  Now I am in the mist of another area in the divorce "mediation" for child custody and visitation.  it is schedule in three weeks and a court date in June.  I have an attorney but any advice on this from the board would be much appreciated again.  Honestly I am petrified and very scared of the process.  I am truly worried about my boys ( I've bee a hands on dad since both were born) and after the incident that occurred last week, when she called the police on me[/u], I'm more afraid she will begin to lash out at them and I'm not there to absorb the anger ( which I know is not health and very toxic- but I LOVE my KIDS). Please, any advise and knowledge would be great.  I still at times believe I'm still the crazy one and that it's my fault we are getting a divorce. All I hear her say in my head is " This is who I am.  You married me. I'm not going to change" and Im still walking on eggshells and its getting worst.

Thank you again for reading my post.

TM2016


 
 

[tmarshal2016]

Good afternoon, everyone

Thank you for all of you that responded to my "She called the Cops on me" thread.  I appreciate all the advise and encouragement.  Now I am in the mist of another area in the divorce "mediation" for child custody and visitation.  it is schedule in three weeks and a court date in June.  I have an attorney but any advice on this from the board would be much appreciated again.  Honestly I am petrified and very scared of the process.  I am truly worried about my boys ( I've bee a hands on dad since both were born) and after the incident that occurred last week, when she called the police on me[/u], I'm more afraid she will begin to lash out at them and I'm not there to absorb the anger ( which I know is not health and very toxic- but I LOVE my KIDS). Please, any advise and knowledge would be great.  I still at times believe I'm still the crazy one and that it's my fault we are getting a divorce. All I hear her say in my head is " This is who I am.  You married me. I'm not going to change" and Im still walking on eggshells and its getting worst.

Thank you again for reading my post.

TM2016


 
 

[david]

First thing is try to clear your head of all the doubts/negative thoughts/etc. Easier said than done but do what you can.
Make a list of things you think are important and non negotiable for the kids. Have another list that you will agree to compromise on.
Remember, you are one of their parents and have just as much validity to seeing and raising them as you see fit. Don't negotiate that away.
I get the fear but you can't let that dictate your decisions. You need distance from their mom to protect yourself. I would even bring that up in mediation. My ex used to say that I was physically, verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abusive. I would always use that as the reason her and I should not be near each other. If she really believes or feels that way I do not want to put her in such a situation. I never agreed with her description of me, since it was a lie, but agreed with her feelings in the sense that I gave solutions to her fears. I stay away from her and she stays away from me. I only communicate through email to eliminate any "misunderstandings". Interpretation, this is what you said in your email and not what you are saying in court now.
At minimum I would not agree with anything less than 50/50.
How do you handle holidays, birthdays, special occasions, etc.

[GaGrl]

I am a mediator but have practiced only in corporate workplace situations, so it's a bit different.  However, most mediation models are quite similar.

Most, not all, mediations are set up for you to choose to be in different rooms, with the mediator going back and forth between the two parties.  As a mediator, I find that this lessens the stress and the confrontational nature of the mediation, and it then becomes my job to manage only the emotional content of the person in front of me in the moment.

You might want to choose this option (check ahead of time).

[david]

My ex called the cops on me numerous times. So much, in fact, that I was on a first name basis with every officer in our county. It was a small county but I didn't know any of them before ex started calling them.
"This is who I am. You married me. I'm not going to change." Put those thoughts in her head too. It goes both ways. Would you call the police on her given the same circumstances and the two of you reversing roles.
I never expected my ex to do the things she did when she finally showed her true colors. I suspect those signs were there before but I didn't see them or decided not to see them.
It took me time to emotionally detach enough to see things in a different light. However, I never threatened my ex with any kind of violence or legal attacks.
Looking back at our marriage I believe there were times when my ex got triggered to some degree and "ran away" then too. She would say she was tired and go to our room to take a nap. When she came back she was in a better mood. There were other things she did too. It's when she started finding fault with everything I did and blaming me for things that I was not responsible for that things became disorienting and I began to question myself. Things were not making sense anymore and I began to question things and that is when the s*** hit the fan. Things went from slightly tense to nuclear war in an instant. She had no filters and exploded. There was no longer a mutual respect from both people. I tried to keep the high road and was simply taking advantage of. It takes two people working on the same goal to achieve anything. My ex was in a very different place and was blaming me for her issues. It was always something I did wrong and she was always right. That is impossible over an extended period of time.
Ex wanted us to go to counseling. I got blamed for things I knew nothing about. I saw psychotic breaks in the counseling room. It was scary. The counselor actually told me I needed to see a lawyer and that was when things really started to fall apart. I learned later that it was actually ex's therapist (I had no idea at the time) and she had been seeing her for some time prior.
Focus on what is best for the kids and protect yourself.

[ForeverDad]

I have a bombshell insight for you... .  Mediation is an attempt to negotiate, success is certainly not guaranteed.  You do not have to cave in and accept what your spouse will allow in mediation.

So if your spouse won't bend on what she wants and it's nowhere close to where your expectations and boundaries are, then you probably can politely inform the mediator that mediation isn't working and it will have to be decided by the court.

Actually, mediation typically doesn't succeed early in a high-conflict separation/divorce.  Later in the process, perhaps just before a major hearing or trial, a settlement might be reached.  The point is that you don't have to feel under pressure to cave so early in the case.

Of course, balance what you might be able to obtain in mediation against what a judge may decide in a brief hearing.  Often a judge will give a better (or less unfair) decision and probably more than we could squeeze from an entitled spouse.  I recall my ex saying, when ranting and raging, I would never see my son again.  The temp order was lousy, mother got temp custody and majority parenting time but I did get alternate weekends and an evening in between.  As bad as that was, I would never have gotten that much from her.

[david]

I had one mediation with my ex. We had a court hearing the next day. It was about a custody issue and that was what the mediation was about too. Ex was not following the order and that was why I filed for a hearing. Ex attacked me from the beginning and never wanted to discuss the issue. Eventually the mediator put us in separate rooms.
I realized ex was too triggered to mediate anything so I agreed to exactly what ex wanted. I told the mediator that if we went back in the room together she would say no. The mediator looked perplexed and said you are agreeing to exactly what ex wants.
We went in the room together and ex said no as I predicted. It was then that I simply gathered my things and said I was leaving and would see her in court. The next day ex came to court with a custody arrangement that met the court order. It also happened to be what I was trying to compromise with her on before the mediation and court filing. It took about 15 minutes in front of the judge and everything was settled.
I believe my physical presence is all that is needed to trigger my ex. My guess is that she is being faced with the truth/reality vs what she is trying to portray about me when we are in close proximity and that is what triggers her because of the deep divide between the two. She is unable to resolve the disparity so she goes from calm to looney tunes almost immediately. It makes sense if she is unable to find a middle ground and lives in black and white thinking only or extremes. I used to be on a pedestal. That is no longer the case.

[tmarshal2016]

UPDATE:

First, thank you to all that responded to my Post (david and Gagrl) especially Forever DAD... .you have always given me some good information and/or advise since my first post (back in October 2016).  Thank you.

So the uBPD wife received the child custody request orders and mediation date and court date from my L and royally flipped out on me yesterday(May 2). She was full of projecting and splitting. of course everything was my fault- from filling for divorce to not being a family.

This morning, She went off and said I was a bad father. (Not sure if I mentioned this before but we are still living in the same house right now but are selling it as we speak) Anyway,  First thing out of her mouth was she was not going to agree to anything and that she will tell the mediator "No" to everything asked and at the end of the meeting will be polite and leave.  She further told me she will take my boys and move 40 miles to one hour away from where I live where she wants to and move them to a different school district but I can only see them on the weekends.  She further stated I cant do anything about it because she's the mother  and has always took care of the kids (as a stay home mother ) and the court will see that she is more available than me.  She also does not work and does not plan on working. In the court documents, My l wrote that she would leave every weekend to see her boyfriend and leave the children to me.  She also told me  1) what does her boyfriend have to do with this and 2) no one is going to believe me, 3) you don't trust anyone with the kids.  Again she is a true bully (has been for many years) and is very controlling.  This morning, I truly was believing her again (how screwed I would be not to see my kids 50 percent of the time) and was pretty much depress through out the day.  It's like, I moving forward one step and the she makes those hateful comments/ threats  and I get knocked down 3 steps... .It's all about her control ( her way only)... .I was talking to a friend about this earlier and I told him I felt like a little kid in school again wants to grab my father's hand as we walked up to the bully ( uBPDw) and tell her to leave me alone.  I tried doing that so many time and all she said was "No, no as along as we are still living in this house and we share children together I'm going to keep doing this to you"... .It's a true nightmare. I'm in hell everyday I go home and see her ( the only thing that makes me what to go home are my kids).  If she does not want to do mediation or refuses any terms, what will that do with my divorce case.  Also she threaten to use the police report from the incident on April 24-That's when she called the Cops on me, against me... .Again thank you for your response in this... .Still walking on eggshell (or landmines).   

[david]

When we were still together but towards the end I was in the living room reading a book on depression. Ex saw the book and went off on me saying I was accusing her of being depressed. She was loud and nasty. I just sat there calmly. When she ran out of steam she asked if I had anything to say. Very quiety I said that I was reading the book because she said she believed I was depressed and I figured I'd read a book to see what it was all about. Everything I said was true and I was very calm. Of course, that was not why I was reading the book. My ex was actually taking an antidepressant at the time and I was reading about it to learn.
My ex threatened that I would never see our boys again, I was a bad father, I was a bad husband, I couldn't do anything right, blah, blah, blah. In the beginning it bothered me. The more I detached the better things got. I received an email just a week ago. It was around three printed pages long accusing me of not caring for our older son because I was letting him not go to college. Forget the fact that I filled out all the forms with him and communicated it all to her through email. I ignored it all because I had already sent an email explaining the facts. I no longer repeat myself. I found out a few days later that our S18 told his mom that when he graduates high school he was living with me full time. (I realized that her email was in response to her talk with S18. It was her way of "kicking" him out for not going to college. This justified "her" decision on S18 to no longer living there.) That part is what was going on in her head.

[flourdust]

Oh, threats! Threats, threats, threats!

Here's one way to help you detach a bit from the fear of threats.

Grab a piece of paper and draw a four-square chart. (2x2 boxes)

Label the horizontal axis "In her control" "Not in her control"

Label the vertical axis "Realistic" "Not realistic."

Now you've got four categories for threats: "In her control and realistic," "In her control and not realistic," "Not in her control and realistic," and "Not in her control and not realistic."

Now you can start sorting her threats. For example, maybe she threatens to smash your computer. That's in her control. She could do that. But is it realistic? Is that the kind of behavior you've known her to do? If she's not violent, then it's not realistic. So, "Smash your computer" goes in the "In her control and not realistic" box.

One of her threats was to let you only see the boys on weekends. How do you categorize that? Well, it's not in her control. (That's up to your mediated settlement or a judge, probably with the aid of a custody evaluator.) And, unless you have a documented history of being a bad parent, it's not that realistic, either.

See how this works? Once you've sorted the threats, there are only two of those boxes you need to pay attention to -- the ones in the realistic column. "In her control, realistic" is a valid warning. She can -- and you believe, will -- carry that threat out, so take appropriate precautions. "Not in her control, realistic" is a yellow alert instead of red. Because it's not in her control, you can attempt to influence matters proactively.

The other two boxes are just verbalized anger.

[david]

And when he goes to college it is because she kicked him out which forced him to go to college. This makes her the better parent.

[Panda39]

... .This morning, She went off and said I was a bad father... .

My SO got the "your a bad dad" by insinuation or straight up all the way through his divorce process, DO NOT BUY IT, the more you believe in your own parenting the more confident you will be as you go through the divorce/custody process. (FOG)

 

... .She further told me she will take my boys and move 40 miles to one hour away from where I live where she wants to and move them to a different school district but I can only see them on the weekends.  She further stated I cant do anything about it because she's the mother  and has always took care of the kids (as a stay home mother ) and the court will see that she is more available than me.  She also does not work and does not plan on working. In the court documents, My l wrote that she would leave every weekend to see her boyfriend and leave the children to me.  She also told me  1) what does her boyfriend have to do with this and 2) no one is going to believe me, 3) you don't trust anyone with the kids.  Again she is a true bully (has been for many years) and is very controlling... .

This reminded me of Yul Brynner as Ramses in the Ten Commandments, "So let it be written... .so let it be done!  Well just because she says something does not mean it will happen or happen the way she says it will. (FOG)

If she does not want to do mediation or refuses any terms, what will that do with my divorce case.

It will move your divorce to the courthouse from the mediator's office that is all. 

Many here including my SO have High Conflict ex's so mediation is not very effective my SO's uBPDxw agreed to a few things but the next morning was trying to change her mind and then dragged her feet on signing the agreement... .eventually did. So if nothing comes of mediation you tried and you move on.

There is a lot of anxiety because neither of you know how this will turn out... .it is stressful. (I know... .huge understatement!) Try to be in the "now" and focus on what you can do now that will help your case, that will support your kids, and will give you some relief from the stress.

I had to live with my stbx (not BPD but alcoholic) for a year from when I decided to leave my marriage to when our townhouse sold.  I did my best to be out and busy, with my son or with my friends or just have some quiet time alone on a walk.  I ran errands, I planned where I would live, I copied documents I might need, I opened a bank account, went to the movies, the library, talked on the phone to family and friends in my parked car in a parking lot... .etc

Hang in there,
Panda39

[GaGrl]

Get your lawyer to book the court date. Do NOT let that court date delay - the opposing counsel might try to do so. The closer to a court date, the better chAnce you have for settlement, especially after you have shown good faith by mediating.

[ForeverDad]

Mediation early in a separation or divorce seldom succeeds.  The perspective we need is not to feel the mediation must succeed.  At that point the disordered spouse is so entitled that any success would be a disservice to us and the children, that is, we would have gifted away far too much.

Courts like mediation.  It was the first step ordered by the court after we got our temp order.  Do try to work with mediation but don't gift away any major issues.  Beware of being "too fair"... .you know your spouse won't reciprocate your niceness.  And court likely won't care how nice you are.  Just be normal and behave appropriately.

However, later in our cases we do sometimes reach settlements, generally just before a major hearing or trial when the ex-spouse likely isn't feeling as entitled.  I often suggest that a better perspective is that the judge's decision is probably "less unfair" than an entitled, controlling spouse.  A couple flies in the ointment are (1) women can get default preference early in a case and (2) courts can ignore the lesser complaints.

[SettingBorders]

I realized ex was too triggered to mediate anything so I agreed to exactly what ex wanted. I told the mediator that if we went back in the room together she would say no. The mediator looked perplexed and said you are agreeing to exactly what ex wants.
We went in the room together and ex said no as I predicted. It was then that I simply gathered my things and said I was leaving and would see her in court. The next day ex came to court with a custody arrangement that met the court order. It also happened to be what I was trying to compromise with her on before the mediation and court filing. It took about 15 minutes in front of the judge and everything was settled.

Wow! Did it feel like a risk for you or were you sure she would reject your new offer?

[RedPill]

It's when she started finding fault with everything I did and blaming me for things that I was not responsible for that things became disorienting and I began to question myself.

Same. Brainwashed. Confused. Low self-esteem. It's distressing how easy you can get sucked in.

I got blamed for things I knew nothing about. I saw psychotic breaks in the counseling room. It was scary.

Are you sure you weren't in any of my sessions?

[RedPill]

There is a lot of anxiety because neither of you know how this will turn out... .it is stressful. Try to be in the "now" and focus on what you can do now that will help your case, that will support your kids, and will give you some relief from the stress.

Thank you for this reminder. So much fear of the unknown.

I had to live with my stbx for a year from when I decided to leave my marriage to when our townhouse sold.

Was the divorce pending during this time? Was living together a mutual decision? Our house has no equity so it's going to be hard to get out from under for a while.

[david]

SettingBorders, I didn't feel it was a risk at all because I was very confidant ex would say no. She was so dysregulated that I knew she would never agree to anything I offered. I learned to use that by suggesting something to my ex, in an email, and letting it sink in. Weeks later she comes back as if it is her idea and I agree. It works because she has to be right all the time.
Besides, mediation is not binding and you can change your mind at anytime.

[tmarshal2016]

UPDATED:

I'm so so depress right now.  Just spoke to my attorney for some preparation for tomorrow's mediation.  What I took from it was it all depends on how I answer the questions from the mediator and depending on their biases that will determine if I can get a mutual 50/50 custody schedule .  He told me no matter how much preparation he will give he cant predict what the mediator will ask and based on their questions will determine their recommending and it could cause me to loss time with my kids... .im so scared right now... .I been crying for some time now.  I feel that everything she said was right.  she going to be able to take them away from me and move away. 

[GaGrl]

I'm confused. Mediators are supposed to be facilitating an agreement - not make a recommendation. If this mediator does make a recommendation, you should be able to reject anything that is not acceptable and instruct your attorney to move toward trial.

[Panda39]

tmarshal2016,

I hope your feeling better this morning   , it sounds like your attorney's comments were triggering to you but I think he was being honest.  He has no way of knowing what specific questions the mediator will ask, he does however probably have a good ideas what the types of questions will be asked.  Has your stbx been blowing more FOG your way too?

Gagrl is absolutely right, this is a mediation you do not have to agree to anything today (nor should you) if it isn't something you want or can live with.

Anxiety is natural, these are your children and you want what's best for them, keep in mind your stbxw is not their only parent, you have rights here too.  Children want and need both parents. 

With Fear we have 3 responses Fight, Freeze, and Flight... .I hope you take that anxiety... .fear... .and fight for what's best for your kids today.  The other two options will not be productive.

You might consider asking to be in a separate room from your stbx today, it might be helpful... .a little less triggering.  Just something to think about.

Hang in there you can do this   
Panda39

[tmarshal2016]

Thank you Panda39,

I just finished the mediation a few hours ago.  Well first, She was lying.  She told the mediator that she was not in a relationship but I know for a fact she has a boyfriend now and had been having an affair.  Anyway, before the mediation she did say a few hateful things to put me in the FOG. Regarding "You might consider asking to be in a separate room from your stbx today, it might be helpful... .a little less triggering.  Just something to think about."

I asked the mediator but she told me I need  to ask for that request ahead of time. This was a very scary moment.  Before going into mediation, she would keep looking at me and giving me hateful looks in the waiting room. During the mediation, whenever I gave my statement, she would make comments or facial expressions to interrupt. At one times, she was amonish for talking when I was talking. I kick myself to this because I think I should have made comments when she told a lie but I did not want to say anything because I did not want to look like her even though she was lied. She lied about her having a boyfriend. Lied about leaving overnight every weekend and during the weeks.  Looking back now, I feel I missed a lot to tell the mediator, like she would take off every time I got home and never returned until the next morning.  Honestly, I froze at times during the mediation. I felt I screw up. We did semi agree on a holiday schedule but there are days I want to change.  Since October of 2016, when I filed for this divorce. I never thought it would get this tough.  It getting worst and worst.  Now I see that my time with my two beautiful boys will be short because she will try to get physical custody of them and move over one hour away. Im so so sad right now

she would interrupt me every time I talked   

[ForeverDad]

Evidently most here are Nice Guys and Nice Gals, we stuck with an unhealthy and dysfunctional relationship longer than most others would have.  We really tried to make it work.  Then... .when we face mediation, we think we have to walk out with a deal.  Well, if one party is reasonable and the other is demanding and obstructive, do you imagine any 'deal' would be reasonable?  Almost surely not!

So we have to approach mediation as an attempt, not "do or die to get it done".  We shouldn't have to sacrifice ourselves and our parenting to report a success in mediation.  It's OK if mediation fails, you just move on to court for the next steps.  For all you know, later, when the other spouse faces a looming hearing or trial, you may get a less unfair deal, maybe.

Most here did not succeed in an early mediation, our ex-spouses were too entitled, controlling, obstructive and demanding.  But eventually something gets worked out later in the process, courts really hate to spend the court's time on trials.  My mediation attempt failed but 1.5 years later she did agree to settle just minutes before trial.

[david]

My ex was very good at throwing me off my game in the beginning. Eventually I detached enough that it didn't phase me. In mediation, it might be a good idea to have what you want to achieve written down. This way when you achieve something you can check it of and move forward. This may help with the diversion tactics. My ex was very good at reading me and knowing when to give a verbal jab to throw me off. When it stopped working for her she simply turned up the intensity of the attacks. I didn't react or get upset which got her even more angry.

[Panda39]

Hi tmarshal2016,

It sounds like you got home and did a lot of second guessing about what you didn't say, I think we all do that when we get in high stress situations none of us is perfect, try not to beat yourself up.  

What I do hear is your stbx was acting out and was probably just as stressed out if not more so than you.  Her constant interruptions, talking over you and general rude behavior is, to me, a give away to her level of stress and it sounds like her poor behavior was noticed by the Mediator.  She is not as confident as she appears to be on the surface. Her words might say "confidence" but her actions are saying something else.

I also wanted to point out what you did do right today... .you did not gift/give anything away today that you didn't want to.  I've seen other people on this site get so flustered, so intimidated, so exhausted, or try to be too fair that they agree to things they really don't want to agree to. You got through it and came out pretty much the same as you went in.  That isn't a bad thing.  Mediation isn't always successful, sometimes your able to work out somethings but not others, and sometimes no one can agree and that's okay you gave it a shot.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

Is mediation done or will there be more sessions?

Unless I'm unclear on how mediation works in your state, you don't have to reach an agreement on something if you feel your positions are too far apart.  Did you have your documentation with you for when she would be absent from the home?

That's why we encourage documentation, our experience has been that the other parent/spouse will simply Deny anything that doesn't favor them.  Right and wrong mean nothing to a person whose world view is centered on themselves only.  It makes sense in a way since even a normal person doesn't want to admit to negative things and a pwBPD is even more sensitive and likely to overreact and be in Denial before others.

[tmarshal2016]

yes, mediation is done ( unless the court orders more sessions but that is unlikely).  A court date is set for child custody orders on June 8th.  Last night was again a rough day.  Honestly I really feel like the crazy one. Still living with her and going through the mediation created more hostile comments and remarks. I know everyone will tell me ... .no to allow her to get underneath your skin but that easier said than done.  I been constantly under her thumb for over 6 to 7 years (all those years I asked her, I pleaded with her to go to counseling with me to find even ground but her answer was always the same "No, You cant make me go. You married me. This is who I am. I'm not going to change. You go to counseling for you but know they cant help you.  No one is perfect." Oh, plus you never accepted my daughter, that's why were never a family.) I feel like I'm a battered person -a verbally abused person with no support, friends and self esteem. It hard knowing that my kids are going to suffer now because I could not keep this marriage together like my dad (who passed away) for my family. He was the corner stone of the family and I feel I failed him too.

I did have documentation with me and brought it to mediation (She was surprised  but now knows I've been documenting since July 2016) but the mediator sort of glanced at it.

Last night it go so BAD -that evening, I received a huge amount of rage and hateful comments from her.  The comments ranged from what I said to the mediator and that I was a Liar.  It then continued to this morning.  The majority of those hateful comment were of her taking my boys and live an hour and half away from me, go to a different school district of her chose and that I might be able to get them only on the weekend (maybe). All I wanted was a mutual 50/50 custody agreement but for her it was all or nothing.  Her rage has gotten worse and worse.  I never thought she could or would get this angry and demanding.  I guess I was so afraid of her that I would agree to everything just so she would not yell at me (Again battered person syndrome)
She want to do her own mediation now but call it "co parenting".  She said I need to accept that the boys will be living with her in the city that an hour and half away from me and that they will drop out of their current school district because she is the mother and known BEST.   Also She does not plan on working any time soon.  She's a bully and I'm so exhausted have to deal with her.  I realize I m feel so lost right now... .HELP


 

[david]

Get a small recorder and record theses rages, etc. Don't let her know. If you wind up having to go through a custody eval they may be very helpful. You may not be allowed to use them in court but the eval is not as rigid. Talk to your attorney about that as far as using it in court. If you stay calm and she is raging that will go a long way