Are You a Spouse or a Therapist?

[Cole]

Had to set a new boundary yesterday.

My wife and I were having a nice conversation when she stopped and said, "I need to ask you something."

Crap. I know what that means. Either she is going to ask me why (fill in the blank) does not like her, start crying because someone called her a doo-doo head in 5th grade and she just remembered, or start raging over her mother.

So, I told her I am not listening, she can write it down and talk to her T. My new boundary is that I am her husband, not her T and I expect to be treated as her husband, not her T. I am tired of every conversation turning into us talking about non-existent or ancient problems which have been talked to death.

I braced myself for the anger and rage, but it never came. She pouted for a while. Then met me in the family room to show me some funny things she saw on Pinterest and we had a nice night.  

She told me a few weeks ago that she knows she no longer treats me like her man, but as a target. Maybe that self-acknowledgement is why there was no meltdown.

Anyone else had to set this as a boundary? Resistance? How did it work out in the long run?

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[JoeBPD81]

I often wonder what's my role on all this. I wish I could be just lover, and friend... .

Every person is different, so every RS is too. I would have find your response very invalidating. But if you knew what was coming, and it worked, congratulations, I'm glad that it did.

I would find it Ok to listen to the concern, and then say "I think this is a matter that you need to talt with your T".

I don't find tiring that she talks to me about her past, I think it can get old when it's the same things over and over, and telling me is something that doesn't take her anywhere. But also, it is listening to her the way I have learnt more about this and about how to make things better for both of us. And I know it is something I can do for her when too often there is nothing I could do to make her fell better. So I think it's something positive. Even as some days I'm too tired to stay alert.

I've read so much that I started to talk like a therapist. And that pissed her off. It also made me feel less myself. But I think people can only see a therapist once a week, or less. And we, family members are there much more. If something is good, and we can do it, it would be much more beneficial if it could be done outside therapy also. It is a dangerous thing to believe we are therapist, so there is a boundary that we do need to stablish. So I think is a good thing what you did.

I'm eager to know more people talking about this experience.

[Grey Kitty]

Anyone else had to set this as a boundary? Resistance? How did it work out in the long run?

Enforcing this boundary is like enforcing any other boundary... .if you consistently enforce it, they will (eventually) learn that they won't get past it. They may still test it occasionally, but probably won't test it as hard as they pushed in the extinction burst the first time or two that you stood up to it.

The more consistent you are with boundaries, the better your relationship will be. BOTH of you will benefit from that, even though you are unlikely to hear her acknowledge this!


And yes, I've said similar things about being a husband, not a therapist.

Consider this perspective: "I'm not trained as a therapist, so I'm not qualified to do this. And more importantly, if I was trained as a therapist, I would be bound by ethical constraints not to be in a r/s with my client, so I'd have to refuse even if I was qualified!"

I think I even said that to my wife once or twice.

BTW, this:

"I need to ask you something."

Crap. I know what that means. [... .]
So, I told her I am not listening, she can write it down and talk to her T.

I agree with Joe here--jumping straight to that conclusion is a bit invalidating. I'd put it in perspective with the other choices:

1. (WORST) Get into exactly the discussion you fear is coming with her.
2. (MIDDLE) Shut her down before she even gets started (what you did). BTW, you get points for offering the constructive suggestion that she write it down for her T later. 
3. (BETTER) Say "What's up?" and, assuming she does go there, THEN tell her you can't be her therapist.

Option #3 is better because it leaves her room to grow--perhaps someday she will say "I need to ask you something" and what follows could be an appropriate question for her husband, instead of what you are expecting.

Don't be hard on yourself for taking option #2 again if you have to--if you aren't sure you are strong enough to nail option #3, do what you have to prevent option #1!

[Skip]

I suspect this approach will become a problem because of it broad and personally invalidating nature... .

Let me explain...

Broad and personally invalidating sounds like... .

Her: I feel sad because my 5th grade teacher said _____
You: I am not your therapist, I'm your husband. You always do this. I don't want to be involved with you at this level. There is something wrong with you.

Narrow and incidental sounds like this... .

Her: I feel sad because my 5th grade teacher said _____
You: I know this hurt you. I really don't know what to say about it though and I'm probably going to say something that is helpful or valid. Have you talked to your therapist. He will be better prepared. <hug>. Let's go to dinner.

Keep these things narrow, stay focused in the specific incident. It's safer with anyone/everyone.

[JoeBPD81]

I try to keep in mind that "it worked". But I also have the experience of thinking something worked fine, and then days /months later it comes to bite me there... .As in "that was the most humiliating thing anyone have said to me" or something like that "I couldn't react in the moment because this or that, but you nearly killed me".

[Grey Kitty]

I try to keep in mind that "it worked". But I also have the experience of thinking something worked fine, and then days /months later it comes to bite me there

There are two ways to define whether something like this "works"

One is if the results when you say it, and more-or-less right after are good. (I use that definition)

Getting it thrown back at me months later could be an indication that it didn't "work" the way I though it did. Instead, I prefer to view that separate statement as a "new problem", and one I need to address when it comes up, rather than re-defining my efforts from months ago as being worse than I thought they were at the time.

There is a lot of moving the goalposts and revising history, etc. in this disorder.

[Cole]

I reread my post and realize I left something out which is rather pertinent. She started talking about the issues she has with how she was raised by her mother. This has come up almost daily for weeks. It was after I knew the topic that I told her she needs to talk to her T and I was not listening to this topic anymore.

Listening to a problem is one thing. That is healthy.

But hearing about it daily with every conversation ending with her mad because I cannot fix it or make it go away is not.

The pattern is:
1. She is hurt over something.
2. She tells me about it, expecting that by telling me I will somehow make it better or go away.
3. I do not make it go away, because I cannot.    
4. She feels abandoned because I am unable to fill that big empty hole that pwBPD seem to have.
5. I am now the bad guy because she is still hurt and I did not fix it.  

1. (WORST) Get into exactly the discussion you fear is coming with her.
2. (MIDDLE) Shut her down before she even gets started (what you did). BTW, you get points for offering the constructive suggestion that she write it down for her T later. 
3. (BETTER) Say "What's up?" and, assuming she does go there, THEN tell her you can't be her therapist.

GC, I think your list is very good. This was actually #3. Again, I left out a pertinent part of the narrative.

Narrow and incidental sounds like this... .

Her: I feel sad because my 5th grade teacher said _____
You: I know this hurt you. I really don't know what to say about it though and I'm probably going to say something that is helpful or valid. Have you talked to your therapist. He will be better prepared. <hug>. Let's go to dinner.

Keep these things narrow, stay focused in the specific incident. It's safer with anyone/everyone.

 
  

Great approach, Skip. Thank you.

[Grey Kitty]

1. She is hurt over something.
2. She tells me about it, expecting that by telling me I will somehow make it better or go away.

Pause momentarily, and use the best tools you've learned here, at this first shot you've got at it, before she's too upset to listen. I like Skip's version.

If it goes badly, don't worry--you'll get another chance to practice it later.     You can come back here and tell us how it went; we'll help you do better next time. For that matter, tell us what happens next time if it goes well too!

3. I do not make it go away, because I cannot.   
4. She feels abandoned because I am unable to fill that big empty hole that pwBPD seem to have.
5. I am now the bad guy because she is still hurt and I did not fix it. 

And when it gets to this point, you have to do two things:

Accept that she can and will think you are the bad guy. It will pass. You cannot do anything about her feelings and thoughts. You don't need to do anything about them either.

Protect yourself from any verbal/emotional attacks on you that you "deserve" because of those thoughts/feelings. Removing yourself from her presence is the general approach.

[Cole]

GC,

My objective is to break this cycle, preferably between #2 and #3.

Setting a boundary that I am not her therapist and I am not in the position to "fix it" or "make it go away" to begin with is the tool. You are right, Skip's approach seems to be the right one for that.

Our MC said most women just want men to listen, not to try to "fix it". He found it interesting that my wife expects me to "fix it" or I am- her in her mind- abandoning her. BPD makes everything work different.

He also noticed I was defending myself against the fact that I cannot "fix it". No more defending myself for not being able to do the impossible.

[Grey Kitty]

My objective is to break this cycle, preferably between #2 and #3.

That is the right goal.

It also isn't going to happen every time. It just isn't possible. You also need tools to fall back on the times it doesn't work.

I was defending myself against the fact that I cannot "fix it". No more defending myself for not being able to do the impossible.

Do you remember the rule not to JADE. Don't Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain.

When you are attacked and accused like that, JADEing is the most natural thing in the world to do. And it doesn't do you or your wife any good--it is invalidating: She feels hurt. She feels you should fix it. When you tell her WHY this is an impossible/invalid request/demand on her part, you are (effectively) telling her "Your feeling about me is WRONG". And invalidation like this will wind her up and make everything worse.

Next time this goes badly, how about posting the specific dialog here--You likely are being more invalidating than your realize.