Fear: the final frontier

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So... .if you are seriously considering divorce... .why not let the truth slip... .now?

If it goes badly... .you get divorced.

If it goes well... .?

Either way it seems to me that you living and communicating your truth is a good thing.

Note... .much of my work with my P is how to say my truth effectively... .and then let my wife experience her emotions.

Very insightful post... .I especially like you considering your leadership example.

FF

[formflier]

So... .if you are seriously considering divorce... .why not let the truth slip... .now?

If it goes badly... .you get divorced.

If it goes well... .?

Either way it seems to me that you living and communicating your truth is a good thing.

Note... .much of my work with my P is how to say my truth effectively... .and then let my wife experience her emotions.

Very insightful post... .I especially like you considering your leadership example.

FF

[ForeverDad]

Are you fearful she may overreact or later decide to make allegations about that discussion?  If so then don't do it without support/witnesses around.  Same goes for a fear she may fall apart, you are no longer her support so let others be there for her.  Of course, be sure you know who are supporters in a time of emotional need and not enablers or negative advocates.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I tried to have a talk with her last night.  I did get to say a thought I had about D16 acting afraid of me because she sees the same behavior from her mom. And by afraid I mean assuming I'm mad, projection, blame, extreme reactions- all like mom. 
After that, she acknowledged and said she disagreed and heard me say other hurtful things explaining why D16 is stonewalling me.  So, we were calm and inconclusive. I had more I wanted to talk about, until I started talking.  Then in my head it occurred to me that nothing I wanted to say would accomplish anything good. All my great insight and feelings and ideas evaporate when she's around.

I had a T appt this morning and we talked about my feelings of being dishonest with her, and realized it is sort of hindsight guilt - that is not merited. I have an overdeveloped guilt button I think.

I've got a lot more to think about.  And MC session tonight. 

[Panshekay]

So your D16 is exhibiting the same behaviors as her mom towards you?  That's a huge red flag and concern for you.  I am so sorry. What is worrisome is will she do that to a future SO?  This is behavior they see on a regular basis whether we think they do or not,  more than likely they will repeat it. I see this as well in my SGD 11.  So the beat goes on and on.  A lot to think about for anyone is this situation. That is why this site is so valuable. Sometimes when we are in the thick of it we can't see the tress through the forest. 

You stated "I suppose it's not as bad as it could be"

My T is going through something that is devastating, every time I see her I feel bad about complaining, it seems to me to be less of a concern than what she is going through. I feel almost guilty complaining to her... .one day I shared that with her, what she said to me was profound.

 She said "bad is bad, my bad isnt any worse or better than your bad, it's all bad and devastating. One persons bad isn't worse or better, it's all just all  bad".  That made total sense to me. 

[insideout77]

yes Bad is BAD but it can get better...        Aside from the fact the Co-parenting isn't perfect b/c the Ex is a NPD.  Things are pretty much accuarate in this article to describe me.  and my case was really nutty.    Getting out tool the chaos in my life from 120% to 20%.

www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2017/06/divorce_and_shared_custody_suits_me_and_it_suits_my_kids_too.html

[insideout77]

yes Bad is BAD but it can get better...        Aside from the fact the Co-parenting isn't perfect b/c the Ex is a NPD.  Things are pretty much accuarate in this article to describe me.  and my case was really nutty.    Getting out took the chaos out my life from 120% to 20%.

www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2017/06/divorce_and_shared_custody_suits_me_and_it_suits_my_kids_too.html

[Panshekay]

Insideout77, I agree... .sometimes ,which is the case with our son, getting out is the best thing... .for all.  Like I said earlier, I rather have my GS6 have a safe home 50% of the time rather than our son and GS walking on egg shells 100% of the time.  Nothing is easy when dealing with BPD, NOTHING.  It seems like we never know what kind of response we are going to get.  Even now, we never know when or if our DIL will call the police, or file another complaint with CPS, married or not married. 

[insideout77]

Insideout77, I agree... .sometimes ,which is the case with our son, getting out is the best thing... .for all.  Like I said earlier, I rather have my GS6 have a safe home 50% of the time rather than our son and GS walking on egg shells 100% of the time.  Nothing is easy when dealing with BPD, NOTHING.  It seems like we never know what kind of response we are going to get.  Even now, we never know when or if our DIL will call the police, or file another complaint with CPS, married or not married.  

I believe the reason why we never know what they will do is bc we are in the FOG and you can't make sense of anything.  Today I can almost predict every move to the detail. Once you GET what's going on with her/him and de-personalize it and makes it all so much simpler.
The way I say it now, it's up to me to just laugh it off whenever the crazy goes up b that's all it is

[40days_in_desert]

Insideout77, very well put. I can relate to that exactly. Understanding BPD has explained so much and I can see the difference in my approach to custody today versus two years ago.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm taking in the idea of Bad is Bad, each bad is different.  I am held up by the idea that I don't have it so bad - at least that's how it looks on the outside.  But, on the inside, I'm suffering still. 

The MC cancelled last night, so I went out on a date night with my wife.  We've both changed, my wife and I.  We are sort of like grizzled veterans of this marriage, staying away from dangerous topics.  Both with grievances, both with hurts, and I'm not sure I can overcome.

[formflier]

 
SamwizeGamgee,

Not sure what you do for a living... .for a long time I was a Naval Aviator.  There is a concept where you know this is going to be a rough landing... no matter what and your job at the Aircraft Commander is to get the plane on deck, with the highest chance possible of your crew being alive and as much of the plane left intact.

There sometimes is not an option for "smooth landing"... .that's just the hand you have been dealt on that particular day.

So, I'm wondering if a concept like that can be applied to your marriage for the next... .(fill in block of time).  Define victory as a survivable landing, realizing that it means you are able to keep giving the marriage a shot.

Reasoning:  You and your wife have both changed.  If you had told me that she has dug in and not moved at all... .I would likely have different advice.

Next big concept:   Give credit where credit is due.  If the changes are for the better, can you make an effort to build on that?

My impression of your thinking (please adjust my impression) is that you see the hurts and prior issues as a mountain or journey that is too big to overcome.  If you thinking is overcome it "all at once", then I would likely agree with you.  Luckily that's not how most r/s hurts are healed.  Take the small steps, give credit where credit is due and see where this thing goes.

You guys went on a date and I'm guessing that it was ok... given your description.  Can you build on that?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

FF - I understand the analogy of looking at minimal damage as the best outcome, as opposed to a perfect finish.  I have certainly adopted an agreement with the ideas of taking it one day at a time, and accepting that "it is what it is." 

My wife and I have both changed, her more than anything due to my massive changes, like boundaries, and utilizing a wealth of actionable information about coping with pwBPD.  So yes, we're still in it and alive. But, I feel like I'm only half alive. I've unlocked the ability to survive and be happy on a personal level no matter my circumstances.  My wife, has learned, it appears, to accept her unhappy lot in life, and cope with the underlying darkness and loneliness inside her, I think.  I know she holds me responsible not only for the damage in the past, but also for the cure in the future.  That's a cure I can't single-handedly deliver, if at all. 

In lieu of MC appt, we went out to dinner. We were polite and talked abotu a few superficial things and broadly of deeper things.  We both talked about things that one talks about after being disillusioned with one thing or another in marriage and life.  Not bad, not hopeful either.  She doesn't say what she thinks and feels, and makes a point to indicate that she has no one to confide in.

An idea I described in my own T appt that morning, was that even if I could walk out of the door after that appointment and be flawless; perfect mood, perfect body, perfect paycheck, perfect behavior, perfect dad, perfect husband - my reward would still be life as it is with my wife.  I don't think she would appreciate it, nor would it "work."    So, when we look at healing the relationship, even by the most minute steps, I still don't have the hope and vigor for a solution or a point at which I feel I will have arrived, and seeing it worthwhile.
 I'm happy to build on the better things and the improvements, and I know that the kids will do better as a result.  As will we all.

[formflier]

Very insightful post... .I can tell you have been thinking through and discussing core issues in T.

 But, I feel like I'm only half alive.

Where is the other half?  What does that look like?

I've unlocked the ability to survive and be happy on a personal level no matter my circumstances.

Am I detecting "resignation"... .or perhaps even "defeatism"?  Not really sure, but figured I would ask.  "Survive and be happy" seems like an interesting pair of words to put together.   I can tend to overthink things... .so if there is nothing there... .it's me... .not you.

Is there something there?

 My wife, has learned, it appears, to accept her unhappy lot in life, and cope with the underlying darkness and loneliness inside her, I think.  I know she holds me responsible not only for the damage in the past, but also for the cure in the future.  That's a cure I can't single-handedly deliver, if at all.  

Perhaps she holds someone else responsible as well... .maybe she has a list that she throws darts at... .and a cute little Samwize doll with pins sticking out of it... .    Very likely going over a line to make the point.

Does it matter?  If you really believe the boundaries model... .does it matter?

 We were polite and talked abotu a few superficial things and broadly of deeper things.

This makes sense to me, describes 80 to 90 percent of the dates with my wife.  My P is shocked at the amount of alone time (dates) that we have.  P expresses that is an unusual "presentation" of this type of disorder.  

 We both talked about things that one talks about after being disillusioned with one thing or another in marriage and life.  Not bad, not hopeful either.  She doesn't say what she thinks and feels, and makes a point to indicate that she has no one to confide in.

I'm a bit lost with this.  My gut reaction is this is a good thing... and a healing step for the r/s... and should give you hope.  It's likely that Mrs FF still thinks... from time to time... .that I have an out of wedlock child... .secretly married a woman in our barn and various other things.  I take it as a good sign that she doesn't "say what she thinks and feels" anymore.  

An idea I described in my own T appt that morning, was that even if I could walk out of the door after that appointment and be flawless; perfect mood, perfect body, perfect paycheck, perfect behavior, perfect dad, perfect husband - my reward would still be life as it is with my wife.  I don't think she would appreciate it, nor would it "work."

Interesting... .

Big picture bpdfamily "rule"... . If you are doing things and then looking for some kind of a response from a disordered person as the "reward" or "goal"... .you will more than likely be disappointed... .disillusioned.

Doing things for yourself... .to be the best partner you can be... .because it matters to you, is likely a healthier way to think about it.  That it benefits your wife is a byproduct... .not the focus.

    So, when we look at healing the relationship, even by the most minute steps, I still don't have the hope and vigor for a solution or a point at which I feel I will have arrived, and seeing it worthwhile.

Can you split this into three parts.

Heal samwize and his contribution to the r/s.
Heal the r/s
Heal samwize wife.

Notice the ranking... .that should match your focus and energy.

Thoughts?

FF

[Panshekay]

Insideout77, maybe I haven't studied BPD hard enough, because I am still shocked at some of the things she does.  She has no concern for her children or what she is doing to them.  Maybe because I am so mindful even today at what I say to my grown adult kids. The last time I saw my SGD and then 3 days later I had charges filed against me that were later dropped stating I was physically hurting my SGD with left marks on her arm and back... .I was stunned. I know I didn't physically hurt her, so that means her mom did, and then they came up with a story to tell the police.  I was thankful that they chose me as the so called "abuser". They could have said my husband or my mentally disabled GS who was 16 at the time did something. If my DIL would have said they had hurt our GD I would have gone ballistic, but thankfully she chose me... .things don't surprise me so much anymore because I just think what's the worse that she can do... .but what is surprising is how professionals handle it and how easily they are swayed by a tearful youngish pretty woman.  It's BS. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

@FF - there's a lot of material in your post.  I'll work on it. 
I also will review the stages of a r/s failing, and grieving the end.   I feel at the end, or at least my end.  I feel like I've mourned and struggled enough.  I'm certainly in an acceptance stage.

[insideout77]

Insideout77, maybe I haven't studied BPD hard enough, because I am still shocked at some of the things she does.  She has no concern for her children or what she is doing to them.  Maybe because I am so mindful even today at what I say to my grown adult kids. The last time I saw my SGD and then 3 days later I had charges filed against me that were later dropped stating I was physically hurting my SGD with left marks on her arm and back... .I was stunned. I know I didn't physically hurt her, so that means her mom did, and then they came up with a story to tell the police.  I was thankful that they chose me as the so called "abuser". They could have said my husband or my mentally disabled GS who was 16 at the time did something. If my DIL would have said they had hurt our GD I would have gone ballistic, but thankfully she chose me... .things don't surprise me so much anymore because I just think what's the worse that she can do... .but what is surprising is how professionals handle it and how easily they are swayed by a tearful youngish pretty woman.  It's BS.  

Two points:

1)  It seems that you actually do GET how she operates, but there is that hope that somehow even a BPD has a red line.  So im here to remind you that they have no Red Line. Her one and ONLY focus is on protecting herself and her image. Anyone or anything, kids, spouse, friends that get hurt along the way are just collateral damage.  

Many people have a hard time accepting that their spouse can be so evil like that and my point is they don't consciously show evil, its simply a matter of a very deep overwhelming fear of themselves that they likely can't even explain to you if they tried and this fear drives their actions. Just imagine if you felt that ever action done to you threatened your life? It would make you act extreme as well.

2) Because of their deep cover even from themselves, how can we expect the professionals not to be fooled?  Lets be honest, many of us were fooled for many years and we saw them daily! The reality is,  its very hard to explain it to pro's and so you have to just get away the from BPD as far as you can (out of the firing line) or if you have kids, then put up a very tall secure wall and practice the "grey rock method".

PS I had a brief moment chance to ask Ex why she was willing to commit perjury and say outlandish lies about me. She replied as calm as I ever seen, just matter-of-factly: "she needed too in order to gain control of the kids"   its as simple as that. The end always justifies the means.

[byfaith]

@insideout77

Dang right!  it's the fight or flight response. The slightest perceived threat... .I could breath the wrong way and here comes the storm.  In my situation it didn't matter how much personal happiness I could create for myself, I still had to continue to live with that person. Some people can do it and some people cannot. I am of the latter.

Some are faster at figuring out math equations than others. My paper has been crumpled 10 times and erased and gone over but I finally figured out my equation. I just had an image of me working on my algebra homework back in 11th grade

like my T said back in Jan or Feb, you have to do something different when the thing you have been doing doesn't work anymore.

[insideout77]

@insideout77

Dang right!  it's the fight or flight response. The slightest perceived threat... .I could breath the wrong way and here comes the storm.  
like my T said back in Jan or Feb, you have to do something different when the thing you have been doing doesn't work anymore.

Whats the definition of insanity?  :)oing the same thing again and again and expecting different results!

I love your line. "Here comes the storm".   A line I used to use was "and we are off to the races".  Oh my... .the memories :-)

Another sidetrack to the others on this thread still married,  but I believe important point:  

 A person with a healthy self esteem and good confidence in oneself does not get sucked into a relationship with a BPD and even if they start it, will quickly kick them to the curb when the crazy starts.  One of the main reasons for what we call the FOG, I believe is that 9 of 10 people living with BPD's are Co-dependent in some way and hence have LOW self esteem. We all kept trying again and again b/c we thought and felt that was our lot in life, we didn't deserve better or somehow the BPD's behavior was our fault and then the guilt kicked in till we were in a never ending cycle if crap.  

The reality is, no one is ever responsible for someone else's actions. I mean never under any circumstances! Just trust us survivors that the cycle your in and giving the BPD's endless passes are more a sign of your own low self esteem then your positive ability and optimistic approach to fixing the marriage.  Yes you are right that your not perfect, but just b/c you are not perfect does not mean that you need to be with a Ill person for the rest of your life.  Just b/c you married does not make you responsible for the BPD's Illness. If you keep kicking the can down the road, it does not get better unless you actually make it better!

Take charge of your life and make the best of it. Your only given one shot at it and don't fritter it away on endless crap.  Show your kids how to overcome life challenges by actually taking the bull by the horn!

[Panshekay]

Thanks insideout77.  You have a lot of good advice and are spot on with all of it. 
I apologize  Samwize, I didn't mean to take over this thread.  I hope this thread brings clarity to all.

[SamwizeGamgee]

No problem at all. I enjoy reading and re-reading everyone's comments. It helps me too!

[insideout77]

No problem at all. I enjoy reading and re-reading everyone's comments. It helps me too!

My comments were directed to you ;-)