My wife seems to get worse the harder I try

[MelsRage]

Well I guess I'll just begin by saying that I believe my wife suffers from this disorder.  I bought the Walking on Eggshells Book audio book and listened to the first couple chapters yesterday on a car ride to my cousin's house.  It's spot on.  It made me cry actually to know that this is not at all unusual, albeit pretty misunderstood or under reported. 

My introductory story is from Sunday, which was my birthday.  My wife is a clean freak to put it mildly.  I'm the primary bread winner in my family while my wife works part time.  She has to clean constantly.  She can't help it.  If it's raining and the dog has to go out, she'll leave paw prints on the patio.  My wife expects the patio to be mopped each and every time the dog goes out on a rainy day.  I generally comply with this request because if I don't, she will go into a rage. 

Saturday night, I was ordered to clean the patio before bed.  Which I did.  Then in the morning on Sunday, when I woke, I let the dog out as I always do.  It is still raining of course.  I let the dog back in minutes later and put her in the mud room to dry off while I mopped up the paw prints in the kitchen.  I probably should have mopped the patio as well at this point but this requires a completely different mop and method (my wife's) and I just wasn't up for that yet.  It was early and it was my birthday.  This turned out to be a fatal mistake.

My wife woke from bed about 15 minutes later.  Of course she sees the paw prints on the patio.  She looks immediately disgusted.  She looks at me as if to say "I told you to do this last night!"  I stopped her.  I begin to tell my story of doing it the previous night and then letting the dog out again in the morning.  I asked her to think about it rationally.  She did not see things my way and began to raise her voice at me.  That frustrates me and I begin raising my voice too and before you know it, we are fighting. 

When she finds herself in what she feels is an unwinnable situation with me she likes to play her trump cards.  One of which is "my" car.  My car is technically in her name.  We bought it using her credit.  I pay for the car of course.  And we are married.  But she feels in times of desperation it's hers to take away from me.  The only thing I asked for for my birthday was to play golf with my father and brother.  This was pre-arranged with a tee time of course.  Since we are fighting, she decided it was time to play her card and take my car keys and ground me.  Fine, I'll have my father pick me up on his way there.  And I did.  And she allowed it.  Even when I told her if asked, I would explain to my father how unreasonable she is. 

While I was golfing, she texted me to say she was sorry and that she loved me and happy birthday.  I said "I love you too" but not "I'm sorry".  She understood this to mean I wouldn't accept any role in the fight earlier in the day.  She was no longer sorry at all. And the fight continued from there when I returned from golf.  She at that point went to the pool with our daughter and while there, texted me relentlessly to remind me what a terrible person I am.  Eventually she calmed a bit and agreed to put some things aside and try to salvage some of my birthday. 

This was of bound determination to play golf on my birthday in the face of intense emotions and stress.  I know it shouldn't be like this.  My wife thinks this is normal.  She's told me so.  I've told her I've been in several long term relationships before her (including one marriage) and this isn't normal.  She doesn't believe me or tells me to go back to my ex wife.  I'm just about broken by it all. 

Thanks for letting me share

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

Welcome to the boards!

Sorry to hear about your frustration. Your story sounds familiar. Our pwBPD gets upset over little things that most people would normally be able to overlook. WE try to explain or justify why we did something, and then it blows up. This is called JADEing.

We have a lot of workshops available that can help you begin to navigate your relationship with your pwBPD. One thing we say around here is that you can't make things better until you stop making them worse. The workshops can help you see what role you play in the arguments and fights. You can't change your pwBPD but you can change how you respond to her. Us nons often have created ways of coping and handling disagreements that we think should work, but actually feed the fire of an argument.

Here's a link to one our workshops on Don't JADE:

www.aggrastathdb.com/dosing-and-administration/dosing-calculator/

[Mustbeabetterway]

  welcome to the community.  What you described is familiar to me.  I agree with Tattered Heart about the lesson on JADEing.  This technique has been very valuable to me.  It would have been helpful to you during the events you described.

Great job of getting a ride to golf and going on with your day.  It sounds like that had a sort of reset effect on your wife.  Many times a little space and time helps things return to a calmer level.

I think you will find much of the information here to be helpful.  Wishing you all the best,

Mustbeabetterway

[Alayne]

Your title could be the summary for so many stories like this (whatever the trigger: paw prints, a toothache, a rude email):

Things get worse the harder I try.

It's not entirely true, of course.  I've learned here and through Walking on Eggshells that there are ways of "trying harder" that do work, can help establish set boundaries, and can paradoxically help our BPDs feel more secure.  None of those were intuitive to me or to many of the people who come here looking for help.  I bashed (and still slip up and bash) my head into the same wall over and over trying to anticipate every conflict, inconvenience, or frustration - only to annoy my BPD for trying to manage him.

You're among friends.  Good luck.

[MelsRage]

Thank you all for the warm welcome.  I've already read up on JADEing and I get why I need to stop doing it.  I'm already to start trying it!

I just spent the day reading some of the other topics here by everyone and does bring some sense of relief that so many of the things I've read are so relate-able (sp?) to my own experiences with my partner.  I think I've finally found the right place to have a little bit of a voice.

Thank you all again so much!

[waverider]

This is the Black Hole of neediness. It is the process of demanding/controlling she craves. This is her form of imposing structure. You cannot fulfill neediness. It is not wjat you do that matters, it is the action of making your comply. The goal posts don't move, there simply is non. No end result to aim for. It is a need to make others jump, the reason is immaterial.

The analogy to a black hole is the act of you throwing everything into it. It consumes everything for no visible results, and you end up with nothing left to give. Drained.

Having consistent boundaries, or limits, to the extent to which you are willing to comply with her requests is the path forward. If you are concerned she will breath fire on you as a result, well she is going to do this anyway, as it is part of the process. It is far better you retain your own sense of control before she does, rather than when you are at the end of your tether.

Make no mistake there is a lot of Brinkmanship in BPD demands, they just grow accustomed to others backing down first to the point of expectation. It is important to reset this precedent. That doesn't mean fighting back it just means standing still rather than running away.

[MelsRage]

The analogy to a black hole is the act of you throwing everything into it. It consumes everything for no visible results, and you end up with nothing left to give. Drained.

I've felt this way for so long.  I feel physically exhausted all the time no matter the amount of rest I get.  This black hole consumes my own mental well being too I feel like. 

The ups and downs of this roller coaster ride have also left me with little sexual appetite.  We were intimate on Monday night because I know it helps her move past these blow ups.  But this morning, with little time before either of us had to be out the door she expressed her desire to have sex.  Given the amount of time, I reacted to this with a shrug of disinterest since we were on our way out.  My disinterest in sex at the time lead to feelings of rejection on her part.  This lead to a verbal assault on me that I basically stood there and took trying not to JADE.  She doesn't understand that each time she insults me for our sex life, it doesn't help my desire to have sex. 

I walked out the door a couple minutes later and I said "I love you" on my way out.  She did not respond at all. 

[BeagleGirl]

Given the amount of time, I reacted to this with a shrug of disinterest since we were on our way out.  My disinterest in sex at the time lead to feelings of rejection on her part... .She doesn't understand that each time she insults me for our sex life, it doesn't help my desire to have sex. 

I walked out the door a couple minutes later and I said "I love you" on my way out.  She did not respond at all. 

First of all, I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from and know that the extra effort you have to put forth feels unjust and ineffective.  With the mountain of things we have to deal with that are BPDish, sometimes the normal struggles of a relationship get mixed up and feel insurmountable.  Or we're so drained from dealing with the BPD level stuff that tackling a relatively simple thing is no longer simple.

I hope you don't mind, but there are a couple things here that I would like to give alternative options for that might help in the future. 

On the response to the request for sex at an "inappropriate time":  This is something that (I hear) happens in "normal" relationships as well, and even "normal" people could be left feeling rejected by a shrug of disinterest.  This is one of those cases where "don't make things worse" may come into play.  Do you think BPDw's response would have been better if you responded to her with "I wish I could take the time now to have a proper "romp" with you, but I'm not able to give it the time or attention you deserve right now.  How about you give me the day to clear away distractions and give me a rain check for this evening?"

On the cold (on her side) parting, I'm going to project a bit of my own thoughts/attitudes on you and see if they fit.  I often use the words "I love you" as a tool to get a response rather than an actual communication of love.  A WHOLE lot of unsaid things can get squeezed into those three words, and they become a passive aggressive way to establish in my mind that I am being loving, but BPDh is not.  So if I envision the exchange you describe happening between BPDh and myself, I can see myself saying "I love you" but placing way more meaning on his lack of response than on the words I said.  Even if he responded with "I love you too", I'd probably be thinking "No you don't".

How I WISH I would handle those types of scenarios - I want to mean "I love you" when I say it.  I want those words to be a gift and reassurance of where I stand in the relationship, even when times are hard.  So I'd like to imagine the scenario ending a bit differently.  What do you think BPDw's response would have been if you paused long enough to really decide that you do love her and want to act out of that love, then made eye contact with her and said "I love you" while placing your hands on her shoulders or making some other non-sexual contact with her, then left without expecting a response from her?

Now is when I acknowledge that these alternate scenarios may not have "gone any better" from the standpoint of BPDw's reaction.  We can't control their feelings or actions.  What I do think would have "gone better" was the way you feel about your side of the relationship.

Thoughts?

[MelsRage]

Thank you BeagleGirl for your insights.  Going to do my best to respond here.

As for the sex, my thoughts on this are she didn't really want sex this morning as much as she wanted to demand things from and control me.  It's what WaveRider had said that made me think about it really.  This isn't uncommon for my wife at all in regards to sex.  She'll say she wants sex at inappropriate times and occasionally, if I call her bluff and say "Lets go" she will just claim she was "only kidding" right away. 

In the times that she truly does want sex and I can't or do not want to, I have made the effort to respond carefully in a way not dissimilar to the one you suggested above many times in the past.  About not having appropriate time at the moment and how about we make definitive plans for later.  This does work for the most part.

This thing this morning wasn't that, though.  I felt as though this was an attempt to control me and nothing more.  I don't believe she really wanted sex so much as she wanted to demonstrate control over me.  She does this so much and is my biggest struggle.

I've long been accused of being a push over in life.  Not standing up for myself.  She knows this and preys on this weakness.  She knew I would say no because of the time.  And she knew she could use that as a reason to make me feel terrible for the rest of the day while I was at work. 

[BeagleGirl]

I've long been accused of being a push over in life.  Not standing up for myself.  She knows this and preys on this weakness.  She knew I would say no because of the time.  And she knew she could use that as a reason to make me feel terrible for the rest of the day while I was at work. 

It sounds like this is a battle ground with some long established patterns.  One of the things that I'm trying to learn is that the relationship dance (healthy or othewise) only works if both parties continue to use the same dance steps.  If one of the partners changes up, the other has to adapt or toes will get stepped on, things will become unbalanced, and there is a risk that one of both will leave the dance floor.  The goal I have is to put on some steel toe shoes and start changing up my dance steps. 

With that word picture in mind, I there are a couple things about your quoted statement that I think are worth pointing out.

"She knows this and preys on my weakness".  Setting aside the "mind reading" that you are doing (I'll address that in a moment), this statement reveals that you know you have an area of weakness.  I would suggest that your efforts will be more productive in working to shore up that area of weakness than in trying to keep her away from it.  Would you be open to sharing more details on what that weakness is and how it manifests?  Is it something that you are working with a therapist to address?

"She knew I would say no because of the time".  We all start to recognize unhealthy patterns in our relationships.  That's good.  What can be come dangerous is reacting to predicted behavior and ascribing motives.  In my opinion, responding to/clarifying the stated request in such a way that ulterior motives become clear (if they exist) is better than acting on assumptions.  If you respond with the recommended "not right now, but let's plan on later" then you are either opening up for a positive outcome or putting her in a position where she has to reveal the "real" issue.  If you act dismissively on the assumption that this is just a ploy on her part then she has reason to feel hurt/vindicated because you acted in an unloving manner to a "reasonable" request.

"She could use that as a reason to make me feel terrible for the rest of the day".  This is a bit more subtle and I may be reading into what you are saying, but I know I need a regular reminder that pwBPD only have the power we hand them.  She can do things with the intention of making you feel terrible, but you control whether she's successful or not.  I know it doesn't seem like it (I'm carrying around a whole lot of stress that I would attribute to BPDh right now) but it is possible and healthy to disengage from the drama and text bombing and hateful words.  If she sees that those behaviors don't get the desired response, eventually she may stop trying.  That's the goal, as I see it. 

You had a great victory on your birthday, as small as it may seem when looked at in context.  You could have been writing about how your wife stopped you from going golfing on your birthday.  Instead, you were able to talk about the things your wife did that COULD have stopped you from going golfing and how you overcame them.  It wasn't fun.  It wasn't what you would have chosen, but you succeeded in standing up for something that was important to you.  I hear it gets easier the more you do it. 

All advice aside, you are in a really painful and difficult relationship.  People who don't have experience with BPD may look at you and think "Wife's a bit of a nag, but that guy gets all worked up about nothing", and even those of us who have experience with BPD don't always grasp the specific pain that you are subjected to.  Sometimes the well-intentioned advice is the wrong advice, or not the right timing.  So along with my perspective and advice I want to offer my sympathy and hugs. 
             

[MelsRage]

My self confidence leaves something to be desired.  I've always known this.  I have problems with it at work as well.  I don't know where it stems from to be quite honest.  I don't have a troubled childhood to point to.  I was sensitive as a child and still am to this day.  I'm smart, I'm a hard worker.  I just have a difficult time asserting myself in situations where I'm less than 100% sure of myself.  If someone is passionate about what they say and believe, I will often go along for the ride because I don't want to step on that passion.  I don't want to be perceived as rude or insensitive.  My wife is passionate about everything she believes.  

An example of this is I recently agreed for us to go on a couples vacation with a PTA mom friend of wife's and this woman's husband to Denver, CO.  I said yes rather than deal with the fight that was sure to follow if I had said no.  We can afford it.  I have the time off work.  We do things for each other and I chose to view this as one of those things.  Rather than what my heart says it is, a two day cross country trip with a couple of people I've spent no more than 2 full hours with previously that could end in disaster if my wife can't keep it together while we are there.

You are right, (about the mind reading part) I don't know for sure what her motive was this morning.  I will work on this.

"The rest of my day... ." this probably has to do with the self confidence thing.  I don't cope well when people are upset with me.  Outside of my wife, it hardly ever happens.  I was a pretty good kid raised right by my parents.  I've been in the working world over 20 years and had a myriad of coworkers, bosses and subordinates and never ever really had a problem with anyone.  People I spend huge amounts of time with over periods of years.  I feel as though my wife came along with the sole intention to inform me that all these people have been lying to me for the last 40 years.  It bothers me greatly on a philosophical level I guess?  As if merely pointing to this fact and saying it should render all she has to say as invalid.  But she will never see it that way but I keep trying anyway.  Glutton for punishment.  

[BeagleGirl]

I don't cope well when people are upset with me.   

I think I'm your soul sister on this one.  My parents never had to discipline me.  They only had to look at me with disappointment in their eyes.  I would consider myself a pretty self-confident person, and passionate about my opinions, but the last few months have shown me what pain I am willing to accept to avoid risking disappointment/disapproval. 

I have a really bad habit of JADEing with BPDh (outward confidence) then going back and internalizing everything he said.  As strongly as I might argue that I wasn't what he said I was, I constantly worried that he was right and worked to prove him wrong.  I'm learning two things that are helping with this.  The first is to disengage when BPDh is tearing me apart.  If I don't sit and listen to it, I don't have to defend against it.  The other is to spend time building internal confidence in who I am.

Are there things you are doing/have done to help build your self confidence?

[MelsRage]

Disengaging is something she makes difficult, as demonstrated with the birthday outburst,  her go to is to take my keys.  There is a park in walking distance and I've decided I'm going to start going there.  It had crossed my mind before, but to be honest, I wasn't sure leaving the situation was ever the right thing to do.  She often picks up where she left off when I return.  She has a lot of willpower. 

Also, she tracks me via my phone.  Something I allowed a long time ago to prove what an open book I am.  So with that, she could just find me where I am I suppose, though she never has.  If I ignore her she will ring and text my phone relentlessly.  What do I do here?  Not respond?  Turn off my phone?  Eventually I have to make contact.  When? 

Building internal confidence in who I am?  Where did you begin with that? 

[Mustbeabetterway]

Sounds like you are looking for positive ways to be in a relationship  with a
PwBPD.  Seek and you shall find.

In response to your statements below:

[quote author=MelsRage link=topic=310997.msg12877897#msg12877897 date=14975698
Disengaging is something she makes difficult, as demonstrated with the birthday outburst,  her go to is to take my keys.  There is a park in walking distance and I've decided I'm going to start going there.  It had crossed my mind before, but to be honest, I wasn't sure leaving the situation was ever the right thing to do.  She often picks up where she left off when I return.  She has a lot of willpower. 

[/quote]

Only you can decide what is best for you and your situation.  Leaving often triggers abandonment fears in pwBPD, so you want to be aware of that.  So if you are planning to leave shortly to take a break from intense conflict, I would suggest saying where you are going and an estimate of when you will return.  I know it seems ridiculous, but it seems to help. 

I refer to this book often, but it has been a real lifesaver for me - "Stop Caretaking ... ." by Margalis Fjelstad.  She talks about what I have said about taking a break.  She goes into detail about the how and why of it.

Like you, I am considered easy going by my friends and associates.  Heck, I was Miss Congeniality twice in High School .   And I have been puzzled and perplexed by my spouses' criticisms of me.  After A LOT of reading and therapy, I am understanding that it is projection.  It is very complicated and difficult to understand.  But, bottom line - it is mostly about the critic and not the target of criticism .

As to where do you begin with "Who am I?"  I think you have begun to find out.  I teach a writing class and characters are known to the reader by what they do, think, say and feel.  So by careful examination we can find out who we are.  The best news is we can change it if we don't like it.

Congratulations on the work you have done so far and good luck on the road forward.

Mustbeabetterway

[waverider]

Disengaging is something she makes difficult, as demonstrated with the birthday outburst,  her go to is to take my keys.  There is a park in walking distance and I've decided I'm going to start going there.  It had crossed my mind before, but to be honest, I wasn't sure leaving the situation was ever the right thing to do.  She often picks up where she left off when I return.  She has a lot of willpower. 

Also, she tracks me via my phone.  Something I allowed a long time ago to prove what an open book I am.  So with that, she could just find me where I am I suppose, though she never has.  If I ignore her she will ring and text my phone relentlessly.  What do I do here?  Not respond?  Turn off my phone?  Eventually I have to make contact.  When? 

Building internal confidence in who I am?  Where did you begin with that? 

Willpower is doing something you dont want to do.  Obsession is when you can't let something go.

The sooner and more often you disengage the easier and more "normalized" it becomes.

Put your flat phone on the charger and forget it.

Having "go to" and genuine things to do makes disengaging/leaving easier for you to feel less forced and more capable of relaxing