Question regarding meds

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hello folks. 

I'm hoping somebody might have some experience with this.

During my codependent "friend zone" period with my ex when she was suffering apparent neurological symptoms, a psychiatrist prescribed her a cocktail of meds for anxiety, mood, depression. I wasn't privy to any conclusions made by the MD, and at this point I was in no position to pry.  I was holding on to the last strands. While taking these meds, a different person appeared before me. Less waifish, gained much needed pounds, more stable without the drastic highs and lows,  and a an even further loss of inhibition... .got the other nipple pierced, tattoos a harness around her breasts, amped up her instagram game with provocative photos.

I made the error of hanging out with her last Friday.  In her eyes was an unmistakeable take no prisoners look. Bizarre. It was coupled with trembling and some occasional crying over physical pains. Weirder.  I actually cut the engagement short because it became confession time for her and I sensed a reckless determination to put a small skewer into me. I thought f--k you and after on and off pleasant conversation I told her I needed to shower and head out.

My question is, did I miss out on the best of her?  Do combinations of meds make lasting productive changes in people who exhibit signs of these disorders?  Is she cured?  Does my replacement get the improved model of my ******? 

[Helplessly]

Hello folks. 

I'm hoping somebody might have some experience with this.

During my codependent "friend zone" period with my ex when she was suffering apparent neurological symptoms, a psychiatrist prescribed her a cocktail of meds for anxiety, mood, depression. I wasn't privy to any conclusions made by the MD, and at this point I was in no position to pry.  I was holding on to the last strands. While taking these meds, a different person appeared before me. Less waifish, gained much needed pounds, more stable without the drastic highs and lows,  and a an even further loss of inhibition... .got the other nipple pierced, tattoos a harness around her breasts, amped up her instagram game with provocative photos.

I made the error of hanging out with her last Friday.  In her eyes was an unmistakeable take no prisoners look. Bizarre. It was coupled with trembling and some occasional crying over physical pains. Weirder.  I actually cut the engagement short because it became confession time for her and I sensed a reckless determination to put a small skewer into me. I thought f--k you and after on and off pleasant conversation I told her I needed to shower and head out.

My question is, did I miss out on the best of her?  Do combinations of meds make lasting productive changes in people who exhibit signs of these disorders?  Is she cured?  Does my replacement get the improved model of my ******? 

[roberto516]

I'm going to speak liberally. In my opinion, there is no pill in the world that can "cure" someone of anything when it comes to emotions and personality. Things like antidepressants can help people stabilize mood but look at the research on what happens with prolonged use of something like that. Our society is very much based on "problem and solution" medicine. Someone is sad? Make it go away right away with a pill. Someone is anxious? There's a pill for that! So no. In the sense will medication "cure her". It won't.

My ex has been on antidepressants for well over 20 years. And was on klonopin  (a benzo) for over 2 years. She said she stopped the benzo because she needed to give a clean urine for work but I highly doubt her anxiety is something she is managing without it. She also took some sleeping pills. Honestly, I have no idea everything she took. She used to go into her nightstand before bed and take stuff. Had she told me sooner in the relationship all this I might have run. But it never really seemed to help her.

Then again, she was obsessed with doctors and finding a cure for her ailments. She'd switch up her dosages all the time or the type of medication she was taking. None of it seemed to help. I think the antidepressant and stuff minimized the more extreme BPD behavior traits and daily benzo use would definitely explain her numbness to emotions/anger. In essence, I think the medication allows her to function in society, and she is, if you read my long history of posts, far from "cured".

I remember the one time she tried to come off the antidepressant (she was always trying to come off the meds and or up the dosage. It was ongoing ad fluctuated). She became so manic. It is so weird to describe. Just hypersensitive to everything. Never saw it before in her. Finally, and not my proudest moment, after 2 days I told her she should just go back on it because she was not in a right frame of mind.

How is someone really "cured"? They never are. We never are. You just don't "figure it out" and you certainly don't figure it out by medication. Life is a struggle and always ongoing. Unlike movies and stuff there is no "the end". Everything we wish to change about ourselves whether thoughts or behaviors takes a lot of hard work and constant maintenance throughout life. Eventually it will become habitual but it still will take awareness at times to follow through with the new belief or behavior.

Your ex probably feels empowered right now. Is riding the highs of life because it's all good for her. In time those feelings won't last. They don't last for any human being who has ever existed. Outside of a lobotomy or constant substance use she will never be able to numb her negative emotions completely. They will always return somehow.

Last thing. I truly think my ex is happy now. She has no need for me. She only recycled me or reached out during intense anxiety and worry after the first breakup. Will it last? No. But I'm sure she has found someone new to be the support for her. But anyway, in between the breakup and first recycle she was so confident over the phone when I was begging for another chance. So indifferent as if she was "cured".

When we got back together she told me how she unplugged the cable in her room and would lay in bed watching netflix with the lights out and curtains drawn. Her "den of depression" she called it. Is she doing it now? Doubtful. I think I'm finally painted black enough and enough time has passed that she doesn't care about me at all. But I tell you this because what someone appears to be on the outside doesn't at all really tell you how they are.

Sorry for the rant. A lot going on in this head of mine .

[Emotions]

In my humble opinion I had been idealized for a couple years at least... .but I believe (I may be wrong) that it is a matter of time before all of the true colors are apparent... .so I think EVENTUALLY someone with BPD or BPD traits will act the same or close to it at some point... .even if it takes years... .even if a lot of their symptoms are better or improving they will still act similarly from time to time... .just my two cents but I could be wrong

[Helplessly]

I'm going to speak liberally. In my opinion, there is no pill in the world that can "cure" someone of anything when it comes to emotions and personality. Things like antidepressants can help people stabilize mood but look at the research on what happens with prolonged use of something like that. Our society is very much based on "problem and solution" medicine. Someone is sad? Make it go away right away with a pill. Someone is anxious? There's a pill for that! So no. In the sense will medication "cure her". It won't.

My ex has been on antidepressants for well over 20 years. And was on klonopin  (a benzo) for over 2 years. She said she stopped the benzo because she needed to give a clean urine for work but I highly doubt her anxiety is something she is managing without it. She also took some sleeping pills. Honestly, I have no idea everything she took. She used to go into her nightstand before bed and take stuff. Had she told me sooner in the relationship all this I might have run. But it never really seemed to help her.

Then again, she was obsessed with doctors and finding a cure for her ailments. She'd switch up her dosages all the time or the type of medication she was taking. None of it seemed to help. I think the antidepressant and stuff minimized the more extreme BPD behavior traits and daily benzo use would definitely explain her numbness to emotions/anger. In essence, I think the medication allows her to function in society, and she is, if you read my long history of posts, far from "cured".

I remember the one time she tried to come off the antidepressant (she was always trying to come off the meds and or up the dosage. It was ongoing ad fluctuated). She became so manic. It is so weird to describe. Just hypersensitive to everything. Never saw it before in her. Finally, and not my proudest moment, after 2 days I told her she should just go back on it because she was not in a right frame of mind.

How is someone really "cured"? They never are. We never are. You just don't "figure it out" and you certainly don't figure it out by medication. Life is a struggle and always ongoing. Unlike movies and stuff there is no "the end". Everything we wish to change about ourselves whether thoughts or behaviors takes a lot of hard work and constant maintenance throughout life. Eventually it will become habitual but it still will take awareness at times to follow through with the new belief or behavior.

Your ex probably feels empowered right now. Is riding the highs of life because it's all good for her. In time those feelings won't last. They don't last for any human being who has ever existed. Outside of a lobotomy or constant substance use she will never be able to numb her negative emotions completely. They will always return somehow.

Last thing. I truly think my ex is happy now. She has no need for me. She only recycled me or reached out during intense anxiety and worry after the first breakup. Will it last? No. But I'm sure she has found someone new to be the support for her. But anyway, in between the breakup and first recycle she was so confident over the phone when I was begging for another chance. So indifferent as if she was "cured".

When we got back together she told me how she unplugged the cable in her room and would lay in bed watching netflix with the lights out and curtains drawn. Her "den of depression" she called it. Is she doing it now? Doubtful. I think I'm finally painted black enough and enough time has passed that she doesn't care about me at all. But I tell you this because what someone appears to be on the outside doesn't at all really tell you how they are.

Sorry for the rant. A lot going on in this head of mine .

Word. I'm sad. I ruminate.  I see this new girl and its chilling. And don't get me wrong, I loved when she was healthy and confident. But this was like Sigourney Weaver in Ghostbusters possessed (some may not remember).  I was scared and maybe repulsed slightly. She genuinely wanted me to join in her elation over her new friendship.  Nuts.

I've always resisted any and all meds. But I found myself at a psychiatrists office last week complaining of sleeplessness and everything else this relationship has blessed me with. I walked out with scripts for sleeping pills and Prozac.   All I wanted was xanax for the damned edge but I was honest about my recent drinking habits. I think I'll hold off on the prozac. I've already demonstrated a high level of pain tolerance.

You should have seen me before all of this. No walls. Only doors. Part of my problem. I want to see everything through

I hope everyone is doing well. Thanks

[JQ]

Hi Helplessly,

Your question is one that a "NON" would ask IF they're respective pwBPD was taking meds. My last BPDgf was taking meds for her Very Serious Cluster B Mental Illness.  You describe some of the side affects of these meds, weight gain, some mellowing out of behavior ... .BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE~! THIS IS NOT NOR WILL IT EVER BE A CURE~!  At best it will be a temporary LIMITED management of their behavior.

As I said, BPD is a VERY Serious Cluster B Mental Illness as described in the DSM ... .it's right next to paranoid schizophrenia. I have dove into as much as I could learn about BPD to see what I was up against. I have learned that medical schools like John Hopkins, Harvard, etc. have done MRI with contrast studies with pwPBD. The studies have shown that pwBPD have Neuro-highways that go no where ... .like off ramps from a freeway that just stop. That 42 published stud­ies report that compared with healthy controls, people who have BPD display extensive cortical and subcortical abnor­malities in brain structure and function. These anomalous patterns have been detected across all 4 available neuroim­aging techniques.
MRI studies have revealed the following abnormalities in BPD:
   • hypoplasia of the hippocampus, caudate, and dorsolateral prefrontal cortex
   • variations in the CA1 region of the hippocampus and subiculum
   • smaller-than-normal orbitofrontal cortex (by 24%, compared with healthy controls) and the mid-temporal and left cingulate gyrii (by 26%)
   • larger-than-normal volume of the right inferior parietal cortex and the right parahippocampal gyrus
   • loss of gray matter in the frontal, temporal, and parietal cortices
   • an enlarged third cerebral ventricle
   • in women, reduced size of the me­dial temporal lobe and amygdala
   • in men, a decreased concentra­tion of gray matter in the anterior cingulate
   • reversal of normal right-greater-than-left asymmetry of the orbitofron­tal cortex gray matter, reflecting loss of gray matter on the right side
   • a lower concentration of gray mat­ter in the rostral/subgenual anterior cin­gulate cortex
   • a  smaller frontal lobe.

This is just a small part of the research that is out there that have similar conclusions. SO as you can see there is NOTHING YOU or ANY medical doctor, surgeon, or handful of pharmaceuticals is going to "CURE" "FIX". The best anyone, I mean ANYONE can hope for is a temporary limited management of their mental illness aka mental behavior.  SO don't for one second think that YOU can make a difference ... .

YOU have to learn why YOU are the "Codependent" "Perfectionist" that you are and then the REAL healing can begin. When you look back at your childhood & the house you grew up in is it similar to what you're going through now?  Why are you the codependent that you are? 

Read, educate, research, get therapy, and learn to like, love yourself first ... .don't look for happiness via trying to make others happy as many if not all codependents do ... .and yes I am a "recovering codependent".  Learn that it's ok to be alone ... .once you learn to love, like, be happy with yourself ... .that its ok to be alone and NOT depend on others to make you happy ... .you're well on your way to being 1/2 of a great r/s.  You will than be able to "Share" yourself with someone who compliments you, makes you laugh, happy, and shares themselves with you as much as you share yourself with them.

J

[roberto516]

JQ can you link me to those research articles and or keywords I should search for to find that research? It's interesting and I'd like to peruse it myself.

[Emotions]

Amen JQ, wanna be my therapist? 200 bucks an hour... .

[Helplessly]

Hi Helplessly,

Your question is one that a "NON" would ask IF they're respective pwBPD was taking meds. My last BPDgf was taking meds for her Very Serious Cluster B Mental Illness.  You describe some of the side affects of these meds, weight gain, some mellowing out of behavior ... .BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE~! THIS IS NOT NOR WILL IT EVER BE A CURE~!  At best it will be a temporary LIMITED management of their behavior.

As I said, BPD is a VERY Serious Cluster B Mental Illness as described in the DSM ... .it's right next to paranoid schizophrenia. I have dove into as much as I could learn about BPD to see what I was up against. I have learned that medical schools like John Hopkins, Harvard, etc. have done MRI with contrast studies with pwPBD. The studies have shown that pwBPD have Neuro-highways that go no where ... .like off ramps from a freeway that just stop. That 42 published stud­ies report that compared with healthy controls, people who have BPD display extensive cortical and subcortical abnor­malities in brain structure and function. These anomalous patterns have been detected across all 4 available neuroim­aging techniques.
MRI studies have revealed the following abnormalities in BPD:
   • hypoplasia of the hippocampus, caudate, and dorsolateral prefrontal cortex
   • variations in the CA1 region of the hippocampus and subiculum
   • smaller-than-normal orbitofrontal cortex (by 24%, compared with healthy controls) and the mid-temporal and left cingulate gyrii (by 26%)
   • larger-than-normal volume of the right inferior parietal cortex and the right parahippocampal gyrus
   • loss of gray matter in the frontal, temporal, and parietal cortices
   • an enlarged third cerebral ventricle
   • in women, reduced size of the me­dial temporal lobe and amygdala
   • in men, a decreased concentra­tion of gray matter in the anterior cingulate
   • reversal of normal right-greater-than-left asymmetry of the orbitofron­tal cortex gray matter, reflecting loss of gray matter on the right side
   • a lower concentration of gray mat­ter in the rostral/subgenual anterior cin­gulate cortex
   • a  smaller frontal lobe.

This is just a small part of the research that is out there that have similar conclusions. SO as you can see there is NOTHING YOU or ANY medical doctor, surgeon, or handful of pharmaceuticals is going to "CURE" "FIX". The best anyone, I mean ANYONE can hope for is a temporary limited management of their mental illness aka mental behavior.  SO don't for one second think that YOU can make a difference ... .

YOU have to learn why YOU are the "Codependent" "Perfectionist" that you are and then the REAL healing can begin. When you look back at your childhood & the house you grew up in is it similar to what you're going through now?  Why are you the codependent that you are? 

Read, educate, research, get therapy, and learn to like, love yourself first ... .don't look for happiness via trying to make others happy as many if not all codependents do ... .and yes I am a "recovering codependent".  Learn that it's ok to be alone ... .once you learn to love, like, be happy with yourself ... .that its ok to be alone and NOT depend on others to make you happy ... .you're well on your way to being 1/2 of a great r/s.  You will than be able to "Share" yourself with someone who compliments you, makes you laugh, happy, and shares themselves with you as much as you share yourself with them.

J

JQ

Thank you. Yes I'm on that journey and suffice it to say that this relationship was a perfect storm that surfaced serpents from the deep.  I just still find my self ruminating.  There's guilt that I may have triggered her and hurt her. But my rumination are bringing some sensible memories back where I was AWARE I was stepping into a dark place in my head with her.  That's why I didn't entertain living together after 6 weeks?  I wanted to move slowly and caved in to a threat. BPD or not I have to lay some accountability at her feet for her intentional cruelty. She's a god damned adult.

But I allowed myself to tolerate it. I'm searching

[JQ]

Hi Group,

Here are just a few of the sites, I used National Institute of Medical Health sites along with other scholar sites vise "wiki" ... .also read "The Human Magnet Syndrome" which you can find in your local library or maybe your therapist might have a copy you can barrow or you can certainly download it from the internet.

@Helplessly - I really do commend you on your journey on self discovery. As you have found out it isn't easy looking deep into ones past to try & understand why one behaves or reacts to certain people, reactions, etc. But without that deep dive on oneself I truly believe that a person will continue to walk in circles on their respective BPD journey. As the enclosed medical studies show the reason why the BPD r/s went bad is NOT ... .NOT because of you or anything you did or didn't do, said or didn't say. A BPD brain is actually physically broken ... .

@the group, what I would like everyone to take away from this is that YOU need to study YOU. YOU need to look at yourself in the mirror and understand why you are the codependent ... .why you are the perfectionist. Why do you want to continue to try & work on a r/s that by all measures was & isn't a good match for any one of us. We can't rehash what we could of, should of or would of done to make the r/s better because the plane and simple truth is that there is NOTHING we can do to make a broken brain repair itself. You have to know AND be okay with the fact that some things are beyond your control to "Fix" or "Make better" no matter how much your perfectionist behavior thinks you can do.

I understand Helplessly that there is some guilt that you feel ... .I felt that same guilt. But I learned that it was rooted in my childhood home and NOT because I was a bad person or that I said or did something wrong in the BPD r/s. I learned that I felt guilty because as hard as I tried I couldn't make it better, I couldn't "Fix it". I also learned to let go of that guilt because it wasn't mine to keep. I had NO reason to feel guilty. I had NO reason to believe I had failed. Learning that someone with BPD has a physically broken brain much like paranoid schizophrenia and there is nothing I can do ... .it helped me understand better what I was up against with the Very Serious Cluster B Mental Illness. It helped me let go of guilt that wasn't mine in the first place.   Once I learned those things ... .things became a little bit brighter for me.   

What also helped me is to let go whatever she said or did to hurt me ... .perceived or real. After all my research, reading, therapy & learning that her brain was physically broken her actions & behavior real or perceived was that of someone who suffers from a Cluster B Mental / Behavioral Illness. And just like someone who suffers from other mental illnesses their actions are at times beyond their ability to understand the hurt/pain they cause. I could hold on to my own pain/hurt but really what good would that have done me?  What good would it do you?

SO I took that life experience and learned about why I gravitated towards r/s like that because if WE are honest with ourselves & looked back at our history we've had more than one experience with someone who has BPD. I learned to recognize MY behavior, change it and steer clear of anyone who behaves in the manner of someone with BPD. I decided NOT to let myself repeat history ... .and YOU can too.

@Emotions ... .$200 an hour sounds good & truth be told I might be cheaper    But I share my experience, what I have learned, & how I got to the other side of the BPD canyon because I know first hand the struggle to accept the eventual outcome of this life experience. I have experienced the same pain/hurt/abandonment everyone in the group has.

My journey like everyone else's wasn't easy & was painful.  But I'm proof that things do get better~! That if one wants to get to the other side there are things that we have to accept that is beyond our ability to repair, fix & make better. We have to learn about ourselves, why & how we got to this point in the first place. We have to let go of a lot of guilt. We have to learn to live life on our own & that OUR happiness DOES NOT depend on someone else's happiness. We have to learn to enjoy the small things in life and know that life is to short to spin our tires going in circles. We have to know that in time when WE are really ready to share our lives that someone who deserves our friendship, our love will be there to share themselves equally.

There is NO time limit on this ... .you go at your own speed & learn about you. I promise that you'll laugh again, you'll smile again, you'll find someone who will be worthy of your friendship & love. But be YOUR own person first~! Let those things go ... .NOT your monkey's ... .NOT your circus~!

J

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2008/emotion-regulating-circuit-weakened-in-borderline-personality-disorder.shtml

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286221/

www.jpn.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/32-3-162.pdf

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=0&q=BPD+studies+brain+abnormalities&hl=en&as_sdt=0,3&as_vis=1


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=0&q=mri+studies+for+borderline+personality+disorder+brain+abnormalities&hl=en&as_sdt=0,3&as_vis=1


https://psychcentral.com/news/2009/09/04/brain-scans-clarify-borderline-personality-disorder/8184.html

www.mdedge.com/currentpsychiatry/article/81185/personality-disorders/borderline-personality-disorder-heritable

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071221094757.htm

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Helplessly,

Personally, I see meds as a sticking plaster - a temporary ease of symptoms at best.  Long term improvement and recovery are reliant on a serious commitment to long term therapy and can take years to achieve.  All medications for BPD traits seem to lose effectiveness over time from my experience with my ex, or worse still can just be dropped on an impulsive whim, which can have an inflaming effect on the behaviours.  It's hard not to hold out hope.  I know all too well.  Turn that hope onto yourself for your own healing and a brighter future, then follow it up with actions.  Be the change you want to see.

Love and light x

[heartandwhole]

Hi Helplessly,

My question is, did I miss out on the best of her?  :)o combinations of meds make lasting productive changes in people who exhibit signs of these disorders?  Is she cured?  :)oes my replacement get the improved model of my ******?  

I'd say no, no, no, and who knows? My understanding of this disorder is that medication can help with some of the symptoms of the often co-morbid mood issues (depression, anxiety), but they cannot "cure" a personality disorder. Using meds for some symptoms combined with therapy (e.g., DBT) seems to be a good combination for many with BPD. However, each pwBPD is unique, and what works for one may not work as well for others.

We should keep in mind that most members' partners here are unlikely to have a diagnosis of BPD, but more likely traits. More importantly, in my opinion, dealing with the behavior through understanding the disorder and altering our own responses will benefit our emotional health (and help all our relationships going forward).

It's very understandable to think that the next partner will get all the goodies that we missed, and that hurts. That can happen in any relationship, BPD or not. The fact is, we had what he had, and did our best at the time. Regardless of the likelihood that the next partner will probably deal with similar challenges, changing our approach and learning and growing is the best way to get different results in the relationship arena.

heartandwhole

[iluminati]

@heartandwhole interesting that you say most members have loved ones that typically don't have formal BPD diagnoses.  That's interesting to learn.

As for my experience with meds, they help, but not for the reason you think.  Yes, the various psychiatric meds take the edge off of the symptoms.  In addition, the psychiatry helps people with BPD because it gives them a struggle and an authority (i.e. a doctor) to listen to.  Structure is a huge factor in helping people with BPD function, and having to take XYZ meds because Dr. So-and-so said so makes life simpler than trying to figure out how to function where pain is just a trigger away.

At some point, however, they need a structured means of dealing with their feelings, not just drugs to take away the pain.  Getting to that point seems to be the hard part.