Round and round I go crazy...

[Depression = 72% of members]

 

I feel like I get trashed for no other reason than her finding some resistance within herself and blaming me for it.

She has the habit of calling conversations 'difficult'. It means she gets stressed out, stops talking sense and starts blaming me.
So I told her I find it interesting that she chose to frame those conversations as 'difficult ', because I would argue that something being difficult does not necessarily mean you should avoid it.
She argues that how she feels at those times *does* mean we have to stop.
I agree, express my understanding of her feelings  and add that is exactly why I said this, we need to stop even though calling something  'difficult ' does not warrant that.

Needles to say, I guess,  that this conversation went nowhere. Oh no, that is not true. It went to her blaming me for her inability to 'share things with me'.
 I cannot agree as that would severely overstep my boundaries of honesty, to name only one.


How the hell do you deal with these circular 'my feelz = shared reality, you know, cuz I sayz' situations?

[impromptus]

 

I feel like I get trashed for no other reason than her finding some resistance within herself and blaming me for it.

She has the habit of calling conversations 'difficult'. It means she gets stressed out, stops talking sense and starts blaming me.
So I told her I find it interesting that she chose to frame those conversations as 'difficult ', because I would argue that something being difficult does not necessarily mean you should avoid it.
She argues that how she feels at those times *does* mean we have to stop.
I agree, express my understanding of her feelings  and add that is exactly why I said this, we need to stop even though calling something  'difficult ' does not warrant that.

Needles to say, I guess,  that this conversation went nowhere. Oh no, that is not true. It went to her blaming me for her inability to 'share things with me'.
 I cannot agree as that would severely overstep my boundaries of honesty, to name only one.


How the hell do you deal with these circular 'my feelz = shared reality, you know, cuz I sayz' situations?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[heartandwhole]

Hi impromptus,

Yes, I have been there, and it's not pretty.  Very frustrating. What makes so much sense to us (and we believe, most of the rest of the world) just doesn't make sense to our partner. A person with BPD often feels that whatever they are feeling in the moment is fact. So trying to use rational arguments to convince her otherwise can not only be a futile exercise, but cause a lot of frustration for you—and then hard feelings between you as both of you feel unheard or invalidated. And round it goes... .

Sometimes we have go choose to end the cycle of conflict for our own sanity and for the sake of the health of the relationship. It's not fair, it may not make sense to us, but it's the right thing to do.

Have you seen this article/video? It explains what we can do to end the cycle:

Ending Conflict

What usually starts these circular arguments, impromptus?

heartandwhole

[impromptus]

Hi impromptus,

Yes, I have been there, and it's not pretty.  Very frustrating. What makes so much sense to us (and we believe, most of the rest of the world) just doesn't make sense to our partner. A person with BPD often feels that whatever they are feeling in the moment is fact. So trying to use rational arguments to convince her otherwise can not only be a futile exercise, but cause a lot of frustration for you—and then hard feelings between you as both of you feel unheard or invalidated. And round it goes... .

Sometimes we have go choose to end the cycle of conflict for our own sanity and for the sake of the health of the relationship. It's not fair, it may not make sense to us, but it's the right thing to do.

Have you seen this article/video? It explains what we can do to end the cycle:

Ending Conflict

What usually starts these circular arguments, impromptus?

heartandwhole

Honestly, it seems anything and everything starts them, at the moment.

Just today I wanted to share a short video with her. After less than a minute, she just stops watching, goes back to her own world.
This I should not remark on, shouldn't say anything about it because it instantly gives her the feeling she needs to change, become another person.
Well, if something happens between two partners, like this, it either stays in the middle (we deal with it together) or it goes one way or the other (one of us takes the whole thing and swallows it while the other stands idly by). Could also be a mix of both, of course, but since we're on a BPD forum I'll allow myself some blacknwhite thinking :P.
So what she says is that she feels like she is the one who should change to be able to deal with this, but because she will be unable to do it, [END OF THOUGHT].
The logic of her first and second step leads to the consequence: I will have to swallow this. Whole.

And it is entirely impossible to talk, even a conversation like this, where I tell her I understand her feelings, I see where she is coming from and I don't pressure her (afaik), she just stops the conversation because she is stressed out. Leaving me feeling like a villain (again), because what I have said (this is an issue for me), is returned to me as a rather nasty bag of horse droppings (you want me to change completely and therefore I can never be myself in our relationship) and then that's that, we have to stop talking.

[impromptus]

It seems to me that maybe her looming ten-month, three days a week therapy (starting somewhere next week, probably), has supercharged her need to run away.
My logic goes like this: If she runs away now, she can cancel that treatment. It would only be natural for her fears to steer in this direction.

But since I seem to be unable to say anything that she does not interpret as blame, I have no idea how to go about saying something like this to her. Therefore, I don't. And then I have to listen to her scream (either in a loud voice or with hefty emotional undertone) that she is "A GROWN WOMAN". Quite the challenge... .

[lostandconfused6]

Unfortunately I know all to well how you feel. My boyfriend and I will be having a great conversation and i feel like we are making great progress with small issues and then all of a sudden a light switch flips and he is in defense mode and "his brain shuts down" or he he is at his limit with talking he says he will think about everything and he will talk about it later. That rarely happens. It mainly happens with 1 subject in particular. I try to stress to him if we talk about it now and come to a solution then it doesnt have to be brought back up on a daily basis.

Recently I have started reading a book called I hate you don't leave me and it has offered lots of great tips which have helped immensely 90% of the time. There are still those random moments of "his brain shutting down" or he reaches his "limit" and it frustrates me to all heck. Especially because of the 1 subject that it's usually over. His favortie thing to tell me is "that's not how i see it so i dont see why you don't get it" or something along those lines. He becomes very 1 sided then will start saying things like just leave me then i dont care.

[heartandwhole]

Hi impromptus,

But since I seem to be unable to say anything that she does not interpret as blame, I have no idea how to go about saying something like this to her. Therefore, I don't.

Your logic makes sense to me, too. Have you tried asking her how she feels about the coming therapy sessions?

heartandwhole

[impromptus]

Yes I did ask her and she says she is terrified. And rightly so, of course.

But I've decided to end this relationship. Maybe the therapy will make her see she can't behave like a child and treat me like dirt without consequences, now that I have decided to not accept that anymore. I'll not detail it again here, as I've written it up in the other topic.

[impromptus]

Unfortunately I know all to well how you feel. My boyfriend and I will be having a great conversation and i feel like we are making great progress with small issues and then all of a sudden a light switch flips and he is in defense mode and "his brain shuts down" or he he is at his limit with talking he says he will think about everything and he will talk about it later. That rarely happens. It mainly happens with 1 subject in particular. I try to stress to him if we talk about it now and come to a solution then it doesnt have to be brought back up on a daily basis.

Recently I have started reading a book called I hate you don't leave me and it has offered lots of great tips which have helped immensely 90% of the time. There are still those random moments of "his brain shutting down" or he reaches his "limit" and it frustrates me to all heck. Especially because of the 1 subject that it's usually over. His favortie thing to tell me is "that's not how i see it so i dont see why you don't get it" or something along those lines. He becomes very 1 sided then will start saying things like just leave me then i dont care.

Oh yes, very recognizable.

The reading, too, by the way. I've read a lot of lessons on here as well and they helped me tremendously. Her, not so much though, as she was unable to adjust to the new situation of me standing up for my own rights. I am not born to cater to her every whim, I am not in this relationship to act as lightning rod, I am not in this relationship to be shamed or punished for my behaviour (or better yet, how my behaviour affects my partner).
So I'm out. During couple's therapy I told her there are certain things I expect from a relationship.
Openness, honesty, intimacy, togetherness, personal responsibility.
And of course you can have a (temporary) lack in one of these dimensions (like if ghosts of the past are distorting intimacy) but to have none of them for any serious amount of time, that's an issue.

So we cannot talk about delicate subjects at all, I cannot be honest as I would only obliterate her feelings (which I now only "hurt tremendously" by sugarcoating everything), there's no emotional or physical intimacy, we're just housemates or lifemates and I feel like she is making me responsible for everything that happens in her life. Well, to be honest, she literally ties her feelings to my actions, then when I confront her about that says she does not blame me. When I repeat what she said she agrees she did indeed say that, then when I say that is proof that she blames me for her feeling she denies it and retreats / flees / leaves.



It's like "friends acquaintances without benefits".

[lostandconfused6]

Oh yes, very recognizable.

The reading, too, by the way. I've read a lot of lessons on here as well and they helped me tremendously. Her, not so much though, as she was unable to adjust to the new situation of me standing up for my own rights. I am not born to cater to her every whim, I am not in this relationship to act as lightning rod, I am not in this relationship to be shamed or punished for my behaviour (or better yet, how my behaviour affects my partner).
So I'm out. During couple's therapy I told her there are certain things I expect from a relationship.
Openness, honesty, intimacy, togetherness, personal responsibility.
And of course you can have a (temporary) lack in one of these dimensions (like if ghosts of the past are distorting intimacy) but to have none of them for any serious amount of time, that's an issue.

So we cannot talk about delicate subjects at all, I cannot be honest as I would only obliterate her feelings (which I now only "hurt tremendously" by sugarcoating everything), there's no emotional or physical intimacy, we're just housemates or lifemates and I feel like she is making me responsible for everything that happens in her life. Well, to be honest, she literally ties her feelings to my actions, then when I confront her about that says she does not blame me. When I repeat what she said she agrees she did indeed say that, then when I say that is proof that she blames me for her feeling she denies it and retreats / flees / leaves.



It's like "friends acquaintances without benefits".

We are still very new to all of this and 95% of the time he is receptive to doing better and getting help. I'm still on ready for when he decides to flip. He's just told me so many lies and gone back on what he's said so many times i have a hard time believing anything he says (i guess that's something i need to work on for myself) He will literally tell me " i know i said that but my feelings change day to day so now this is the truth" one thing i can say he does hold to 100% of the time are his intentions he said his words may not always match them but his intentions never change. There is still a lot i don't understand but day by day i learn more and being on this message board has helped me so much to know i'm not alone and there is an explanation for the things that have gone on. 

The delicate subjects are for sure a trigger. Do you think she's in a phase and she may think about things and change her opinion on you standing up for certain things?

I've read so much on these boards about BPD women there seems to be little about BPD men and this may be TMI but since you touched on the intimacy thing we have not had any physical intimacy in 3 weeks now which is very unusual for us. usually its at least 1-2 times a week ( we dont live together and i work 60 hours a week and hes in school so we dont see each other as much as we would like) of course my first thought is he's cheating (i wouldnt dare tell him that) he said it's because of everything on his mind and "it" won't work and thats effecting his mental state even more. Is that BS? 

[impromptus]

We are still very new to all of this and 95% of the time he is receptive to doing better and getting help. I'm still on ready for when he decides to flip. He's just told me so many lies and gone back on what he's said so many times i have a hard time believing anything he says (i guess that's something i need to work on for myself) He will literally tell me " i know i said that but my feelings change day to day so now this is the truth" one thing i can say he does hold to 100% of the time are his intentions he said his words may not always match them but his intentions never change. There is still a lot i don't understand but day by day i learn more and being on this message board has helped me so much to know i'm not alone and there is an explanation for the things that have gone on.  

The delicate subjects are for sure a trigger. Do you think she's in a phase and she may think about things and change her opinion on you standing up for certain things?

I've read so much on these boards about BPD women there seems to be little about BPD men and this may be TMI but since you touched on the intimacy thing we have not had any physical intimacy in 3 weeks now which is very unusual for us. usually its at least 1-2 times a week ( we dont live together and i work 60 hours a week and hes in school so we dont see each other as much as we would like) of course my first thought is he's cheating (i wouldnt dare tell him that) he said it's because of everything on his mind and "it" won't work and thats effecting his mental state even more. Is that BS?  

---well, I did not have enough time for brevity. Again.---

Very interesting that you should mention the "lies" and not being able to believe his word!
This is exactly what we had many a major crisis over, as I would tell her she changed her words or opinion or facts or feelings but she would just deny that. It lead to the same feeling in me:  that I can not take her words for what they are, I always have to think about possible currents beneath the surface, how these specific currents align with previous currents, the whole thing is a giant but hastily woven web that carries the enormous weight of the constructed self. And like the fabric of reality unraveling when I challenge her feelings, I think the same happens with this web of lies, as it is not built to deceive me but to help her cope.
Having that challenged was like sawing off a limb, if her reply is any measure to go by. She exploded with such thrust, pushing me away as hard as possible, acting like an apocalyptic hedgehog with laser-guided missiles. Time and time again this came up, I could not express my position as she would just not have it.
She said it gave her the feeling I treat her like a child, like a mentally challenged person, and most of all not like an adult. Especially the last one was very important to her as she kept on repeating that. Not a very insightful comment if you subsequently retreat at the slightest sign of emotional discomfort, run away from mildly annoying conversations, throw tantrums when you don't get your way with trivialities.




===== START WEIRD INTERMEZZO =====
- Man that was stressful, she just dropped by to ask for a clarification regarding me ending our relationship. I thought I had been clear: I love you, I want to be with you, I do not want to be in this relationship so I am ending this relationship. She acts like she understands. Then she says she thinks it would be easier if I said she's an ass and I do not want to be with her. I told her I am not ending the relationship for her comrort, I am not trying to please her.
I asked her what she expected to get from acting so very hostile and angrily defensive with everything I said. Her: Just a clarification regarding me ending the relationship.
To me it feels like things just do not compute. One and one is one, as she says things are clear, then goes back to things are unclear, you have ended the relationship 12 times in these couple of days, I don't know what you want, I just want you to be clear on what you want.
I told her, I am not being unclear, I am pretty clear in mind and word at the moment, so maybe search for possible distortion within you. She just denies, goes of on a rant that she's not a nutcase etc. Sure, just blessed with a complete inability to understand me. Seems legit.
Then she asked me what it is I no longer do because of suffering her emotional abuse. That was a pretty unreal situation. I listed a couple of things I have suspended, or stopped doing in our relationship. I also left out a great number of things, as I simply do not want to unload that whole sh*tstorm on her. As I said, I love her and I don't think she does any of these things to knowingly hurt me. It's just the way she's learned to act.
Aaaand that was the conversation, basically. She just says she gotta think about that. Maybe I could write it down, in case she forgets.
Well, that didn't sit too well with me, as you might be able to imagine :'. Ask me this kind of deeply sore information, about how I feel the emotional abuse affects my life, then walk away. But at the same time, I have to think *everything, all the time* can be manipulative, FOG, drawing of emotion, looking for weakness. Have to stay levelheaded, not be sucked in to the destruction.
==== END INTERMEZZO =====




Right. Where was I.
Oh yes, your question regarding intimacy. Well my pwBPD does no longer engage in physical intimacy that goes further than cuddling. She just freezes up, says it has to do with her past. And she doesn't fancy talking about it. So that's solved, then... .Well, ehm, so yeah I think in a way it may not be BS? Sure the mechanical part may be less than convincing (although emotions play a big role in male sexuality too, mind you). But ultimately it doesn't really matter, I would think, why exactly things are like they are. Well, apart from if he were cheating, of course, that would put things in a different light!
I found it quite disturbing and strangely comforting that a great number of relationships of men with pwBPDs (female) start out with great sex, then after about six months that sort of dies down and becomes just another tool in the toolbox of manipulation, so to speak. It has been at least 1.5 years since we were regularly intimate in that way. So hell, I may be in a wheelchair but being single, I should be able to have a higher score of mediocre sex with random, vapid strangers. It's not the most important part of a relationship for me but it's like money. An total lack of it leads to all sorts of crazy stress.
I hope you find some useful info in this. But please also note I am not an expert in any field (well, except patience, as of lately :P). Nothing here that isn't in the lessons, I think.

[lostandconfused6]

---well, I did not have enough time for brevity. Again.---

Very interesting that you should mention the "lies" and not being able to believe his word!
This is exactly what we had many a major crisis over, as I would tell her she changed her words or opinion or facts or feelings but she would just deny that. It lead to the same feeling in me:  that I can not take her words for what they are, I always have to think about possible currents beneath the surface, how these specific currents align with previous currents, the whole thing is a giant but hastily woven web that carries the enormous weight of the constructed self. And like the fabric of reality unraveling when I challenge her feelings, I think the same happens with this web of lies, as it is not built to deceive me but to help her cope.
Having that challenged was like sawing off a limb, if her reply is any measure to go by. She exploded with such thrust, pushing me away as hard as possible, acting like an apocalyptic hedgehog with laser-guided missiles. Time and time again this came up, I could not express my position as she would just not have it.
She said it gave her the feeling I treat her like a child, like a mentally challenged person, and most of all not like an adult. Especially the last one was very important to her as she kept on repeating that. Not a very insightful comment if you subsequently retreat at the slightest sign of emotional discomfort, run away from mildly annoying conversations, throw tantrums when you don't get your way with trivialities.




===== START WEIRD INTERMEZZO =====
- Man that was stressful, she just dropped by to ask for a clarification regarding me ending our relationship. I thought I had been clear: I love you, I want to be with you, I do not want to be in this relationship so I am ending this relationship. She acts like she understands. Then she says she thinks it would be easier if I said she's an ass and I do not want to be with her. I told her I am not ending the relationship for her comrort, I am not trying to please her.
I asked her what she expected to get from acting so very hostile and angrily defensive with everything I said. Her: Just a clarification regarding me ending the relationship.
To me it feels like things just do not compute. One and one is one, as she says things are clear, then goes back to things are unclear, you have ended the relationship 12 times in these couple of days, I don't know what you want, I just want you to be clear on what you want.
I told her, I am not being unclear, I am pretty clear in mind and word at the moment, so maybe search for possible distortion within you. She just denies, goes of on a rant that she's not a nutcase etc. Sure, just blessed with a complete inability to understand me. Seems legit.
Then she asked me what it is I no longer do because of suffering her emotional abuse. That was a pretty unreal situation. I listed a couple of things I have suspended, or stopped doing in our relationship. I also left out a great number of things, as I simply do not want to unload that whole sh*tstorm on her. As I said, I love her and I don't think she does any of these things to knowingly hurt me. It's just the way she's learned to act.
Aaaand that was the conversation, basically. She just says she gotta think about that. Maybe I could write it down, in case she forgets.
Well, that didn't sit too well with me, as you might be able to imagine :'. Ask me this kind of deeply sore information, about how I feel the emotional abuse affects my life, then walk away. But at the same time, I have to think *everything, all the time* can be manipulative, FOG, drawing of emotion, looking for weakness. Have to stay levelheaded, not be sucked in to the destruction.
==== END INTERMEZZO =====




Right. Where was I.
Oh yes, your question regarding intimacy. Well my pwBPD does no longer engage in physical intimacy that goes further than cuddling. She just freezes up, says it has to do with her past. And she doesn't fancy talking about it. So that's solved, then... .Well, ehm, so yeah I think in a way it may not be BS? Sure the mechanical part may be less than convincing (although emotions play a big role in male sexuality too, mind you). But ultimately it doesn't really matter, I would think, why exactly things are like they are. Well, apart from if he were cheating, of course, that would put things in a different light!
I found it quite disturbing and strangely comforting that a great number of relationships of men with pwBPDs (female) start out with great sex, then after about six months that sort of dies down and becomes just another tool in the toolbox of manipulation, so to speak. It has been at least 1.5 years since we were regularly intimate in that way. So hell, I may be in a wheelchair but being single, I should be able to have a higher score of mediocre sex with random, vapid strangers. It's not the most important part of a relationship for me but it's like money. An total lack of it leads to all sorts of crazy stress.
I hope you find some useful info in this. But please also note I am not an expert in any field (well, except patience, as of lately :P). Nothing here that isn't in the lessons, I think.

Your relationship sounds so much like mine! He tells me he knows he's lying to me sometimes but he does it to save a fight or my feelings because he knows his intentions behind whats going on and what he's doing and he doesnt want me to take something the wrong way... .it is so frustrating to me and he says the same exact thing to me about treating him like a child or talking to him like a 3 year and he will lash out and say the meanest things possible to get me to shut up or just because his favorite is "im done im leaving im never coming back to your house again" he knows that breaks me (well used to im getting better)

in regards to her wanting clarification it seems nearly impossible or they seem like they understand then a few hours later go right back to asking the same question at least my BF does, or i feel we reach a resolution and then he just forgets or goes around it. He has actually started keeping a journal of the things he tells me now.

and the intimacy is def new for me when he is super stressed there have been times where his "friend" didn't work and he would get so mad about it now he says hes tried on his own and it doesnt work and he doesn't want to try with me and disappoint and get more frustrated i'll give him a pass because for 2 of the 3 weeks he wasnt feeling well at all strep throat then a cold then  pink eye :/ but last weekend made me very mad i told him this weekend there is no excuse we have so much other crap going on that we dont need this to become and issue... .a little background him and his ex split because the intimacy disappeared after a year (his exs fault not his)