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Author Topic: Mother jealous of father/daughter  (Read 2229 times)
Peacefromwithin
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« on: June 22, 2017, 02:59:20 PM »

I know in my heart I did nothing wrong and it isn't my fault, but today it came up in therapy and it's all just so unsettling. I want to understand this and make peace with it.

My uBPD/NPD mother was always jealous of the father/daughter relationship between my dad and oldest sister, and between my dad and me. (She and I were the two SG children, and our middle sister, the GC, was a mini-mom and not close to dad). She would often make very inappropriate, passive-aggressive comments that weren't based on reality.   She still does to this day.

I'm certain it was that my mother was just plain jealous. Jealous that he was a loving parent (for the most part) that she couldn't be. Jealous that the attention he got from his little girls fed his Narcissistic need to be loved and looked up to (I had my dad on a pedestal for a long time). He was never inappropriate, and that's what makes this all the more bizarre. He was physically affectionate but 99% of the time it was nice because my mother was so ice cold. And the one time that his affection was uncomfortable wasn't sexual anyway. It's hard to explain it and I don't think it matters anyway.

My mother used to say such inappropriate things. She'd talk about us as little girls "flirting with our father." Ew! She'd say something passive aggressive if my dad was making silly funny faces to a toddler on line at the supermarket to make him or her giggle, again using the word "flirting". Yuck.   That's not what my dad was doing. It fed his narcissism, I figured that out very early. He was really good with kids because he was a big kid himself.

She would refer to him as our "boyfriend" when we were little (she still calls him my boyfriend, actually) and back then would say things about us "being in love with our father". She didn't say it in a cold tone of voice, but it was still in a strange tone of voice. She'd also refer to him taking us out for movies or ice cream, at her idea, as "going on dates".   That is not normal.  I don't get it. What was/is going on in her head here? I want to understand the insanity so I can put it to rest already.

The other strange thing to this all, is that we were raised in a very old-fashioned conservative home. We were all raised to be quite nerdy, to say the least. I think we were raised to be absolutely sexually stunted, if that's even a thing (i.e. girls' hair cut very short. My mother hated the normal girly side of me, and often made fun of it, etc.) So none of this makes any sense. I'm hoping someone can help me understand the insanity here.

It reminds me of my one of my former friends. She was very jealous of my being of normal weight (as an overweight kid who was bullied, I work very hard at my weight). I know she was very insecure of her weight. She would constantly make passive-aggressive comments about my weight whenever we were together with our husbands, and it always made me uncomfortable. But I don't know if she was NPD/BPD.

Anyway, I think I'm looking for a few things here. (1) Validation that as a little girl I didn't do anything wrong. I know in my heart I didn't, but the brainwashing by my mother just really screws with my head still. I was just a little girl who felt safe around her dad because he wasn't scary like my raging mom. My dad had a temper and flew off the handle at the littlest things, but it rarely ever scared me. I'm not sure why one type of anger scared me and the other didn't, but I think it was because one was indirect and the other was direct. I never felt like my dad wanted to kill me, for example. I did sense that from my mom from an early age, however, during her rages.

(2) It would help me to hear from others who experienced this, just to know I was not alone in this crazy insane experience that still to this day I have to hear passive aggressive comments about from my mother.

(3) Is this BPD or NPD or neither? Is it common for mothers like this to be that insanely jealous of their daughters? Why? My father loved and respected my mother. He catered to her like she was the Queen of England. Whatever she ordered him to do, he did calmly and without a word, like a "yes, dear" sort of thing. He always spoke so highly of her, too. (Either he's delusional, or she brainwashed him that *I* and my eldest sister were the problem child and the cause of her stress... .)  

Also am I not being self-aware here? Maybe it was wrong of me to have my dad on a pedestal and not see anything wrong with him and his narcissism because I felt safe around him. My first therapist 20+ years ago told me my dad was a phony and I wasn't ready to see the truth because then I'd be an orphan. But I don't think he meant that his love for his wife and children was phony. It has to do with how he acted like he really cared during the therapy session, and that afterward never brought it up again, and spent the car ride home telling me what a fabulous mother I had. This after the psychologist told them I was depressed, and my mother went into an immediate rage that he was going to blame her.

How do I heal? I want to put this behind me already and get on with my life.

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Harri
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 02:02:21 PM »

Hi Peacefromwithin.

You did nothing wrong when you were a little girl.  Of course you liked to spend time with your dad as he treated you so much better than your mom.  Kids are going to sense the anger, hostility, jealousy and some will gravitate towards the other parent and some will be even more enmeshed with the more 'emotional' caregiver.  You gravitated more towards the parent you felt loved by and could relax with... .of course you did!  That is a smart move IMO and not at all wrong.

I think you are correct that your mother is/was jealous of your relationship with him.  In situations like that, it is obvious when a child likes one parent more than another.  Too bad your mother did not have the self-awareness and ability to work on her issues and change her own behavior.  Instead she put the blame on you and, I would bet, did quite a bit of projection.  Do you know if she was ever sexually abused?  She could be repeating patterns from her own childhood.  Shame runs deep in people with BPD and those who were sexually abused.

I would suggest you read and learn about projection.  Sorry, can't give a link.  Understanding it can go a long way in helping you better understand your mothers behaviors so you can depersonalize things and begin to deal with the emotional part of healing.  As you said, you know this had nothing to do with you so intellectually you have processed this.  Emotional processing and healing is totally different though.  Putting things into the context of projection and understanding how it works can help you (IMO of course).

My mother made similar accusations about me, often saying I sided with  my dad against her and that I liked him better.  So I had some of what you experienced but not as intense and no accusations of flirting (which I find disturbing and is why I wonder if your mom was ever sexually abused).

What do you say now when your mother makes ridiculous statements?

You do not lack self-awareness!  There is no right or wrong when it comes to recognizing the problematic behaviors of your father.  I agree with the former T about you not being ready (and that is okay) and I very much agree with your assessment of her statements about your fathers behavior.

I think you need to start listening to yourself more.  So far, I think you have shown great insight into your experiences, so keep doing what you are doing.  Keep posting and checking what others think, but really, I think you are putting pieces together quite well all on your own.

Healing is a process (oh how I hate the truth of that statement).  You can't rush it and you can't intellectualize your way to emotional healing though it is important.

Be well!
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2017, 03:20:01 PM »

Hi Peacefromwithin:  
I'm so sorry for what you struggling with and that you feel unsettled.  I agree with the feedback that Harri provided. Your heart is telling you the truth.  You didn't do anything wrong.  I'm sorry that your mom made you feel guilty.  You have nothing to feel guilty about.
Quote from: Peacefromwithin
(1) Validation that as a little girl I didn't do anything wrong. I know in my heart I didn't, but the brainwashing by my mother just really screws with my head still. I was just a little girl who felt safe around her dad because he wasn't scary like my raging mom.
 I'm glad that you felt safe around your dad.  I agree that your mom was jealous in a very sick way.  She made hurtful and inappropriate comments to try and ruin your relationship with your dad.
Quote from: Peacefromwithin
I think we were raised to be absolutely sexually stunted, if that's even a thing (i.e. girls' hair cut very short. My mother hated the normal girly side of me, and often made fun of it, etc.) So none of this makes any sense.
 Perhaps she didn't want you to look too  good, because you would be competition for her?  Either that, or she didn't want you to attract boyfriends. Harri brings up an interesting point, about the possibility that your mom may have had some level of exposure to sexual abuse, or perhaps, your mom is replaying a script delivered from her mom.

I think that jealousy is common with people with BPD.  The situations vary.  Sometimes, a BPD wife will convince her husband to abandon his side of the family and maintain a state of "no contact" with his family, because she is doesn't want to share her husband.  

Harri made a good suggestion for you to read up on "projection" The information below should help expand upon that topic.

Tag, You're It : A Game of Projection
Some people with BPD or NPD who act out may use a more complicated type of defense mechanism — we've named it "Tag, You're It"- to relieve their anxiety, pain, and feelings of shame. It's more complex because it combines shame, splitting, denial, and projection.

People with BPD (and some with NPD) usually lack a clear sense of who they are, and feel empty and inherently defective. Others seem to run away from them, which is lonely and excruciatingly painful. So borderlines cope by trying to "tag" or "put" these feelings onto someone else. This is called projection.

Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them (often in an accusing way) to someone else. Projection is like gazing at yourself in a hand-held mirror. When you think you look ugly, you turn the mirror around. Voila! Now the homely face in the mirror belongs to somebody else.

Sometimes the projection is an exaggeration of something that has a basis in reality. For example, the borderline may accuse you of "hating" them when you just feel irritated. Sometimes the projection may come entirely from their imagination: for example, they accuse you of flirting with a salesclerk when you were just asking for directions to the shoe department.

The BP's unconscious hope is that by projecting this unpleasant stuff onto another person-by tagging someone else and making them "it" like a game of Tag — the person with BPD will feel better about themselves. And they do feel better, for a little while. But the pain comes back. So the game is played again and again.

Projection also has another purpose: your loved one unconsciously fears that if you find out they're not perfect, you will abandon them. Like in the Wizard of Oz, they live in constant terror that you'll discover the person behind the curtain. Projecting the negative traits and feelings onto you is a way to keep the curtain closed and redirect your attention on the perfect image they've tried to create for themselves.

How can people with BPD and NPD deny that they are projecting when it is so obvious to everyone else? The answer is that shame and splitting may combine with projection and denial to make the "Tag, You're It" defense mechanism a more powerful way of denying ownership of unpleasant thoughts and feelings.

Some adults who enter into relationships with borderlines feel brainwashed by the BP's accusations and criticisms. The techniques of brainwashing are simple: isolate the victim, expose them to inconsistent messages, mix with sleep deprivation, add some form of abuse, get the person to doubt what they know and feel, keep them on their toes, wear them down, and stir well.
NOTE:  The above was taken from the article, "Familiar Fights" at the link below
You might find the articles at the links below helpful:
PROJECTION

FAMILIAR FIGHTS

OVERCOMING CHILDHOOD EMOTIONAL NEGLECT
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Peacefromwithin
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 07:10:24 PM »

You did nothing wrong when you were a little girl.  Of course you liked to spend time with your dad as he treated you so much better than your mom.  Kids are going to sense the anger, hostility, jealousy and some will gravitate towards the other parent and some will be even more enmeshed with the more 'emotional' caregiver.  You gravitated more towards the parent you felt loved by and could relax with... .of course you did!  That is a smart move IMO and not at all wrong.

Hi Harri,

Thank you again for your replies to my posts. They have been extremely helpful. You have a really good understanding of BPD. I appreciate it a lot.

It's crazy because with my increase in self awareness of what my mind is telling me, I have opposite thoughts going on. The healthy part of me says, "She's bat-sh*t crazy. You did nothing wrong. You were a good child. Your mother was jealous and that is insane." The unhealthy/anxious/programmed part of me says "You were too close to your father. You should've seen that that upset your mom. You should've forced yourself to be more comfortable around your mother, for all she did for you. You are an ungrateful little ___." No wonder I'm so tired all the time. I wish these fighting thoughts in my head would quit it. How do I get them to stop?

Excerpt
I think you are correct that your mother is/was jealous of your relationship with him.  In situations like that, it is obvious when a child likes one parent more than another.  Too bad your mother did not have the self-awareness and ability to work on her issues and change her own behavior.  Instead she put the blame on you and, I would bet, did quite a bit of projection.  :)o you know if she was ever sexually abused?  She could be repeating patterns from her own childhood.  Shame runs deep in people with BPD and those who were sexually abused.

Thank you for validating that. I do know that it was very obvious to my mother that I "liked dad more". But I didn't do it to hurt her. Yes I used to scream if I couldn't sit next to him at the table or in the car, but it wasn't because I was bad. It was out of pure anxiety. I did not ever feel safe around my mother. I was terrified of her every freaking day of my life from a very young age. I felt safe around my dad, even with his narcissistic rages because somehow I never really felt those were authentic. It's hard to explain. I was not a smart kid and I don't think I had good instincts because my world was so chaotic, but somehow I was able to determine that about my dad. What do you think of that?

My mother had zero self-awareness. She used to rage, "Go and tell (neighbor, friend's mother, etc) what a horrible mother I am!" I've never met a human being like her with such horrendous self-awareness. It just does not exist. Even now as an adult when I try to calmly help her to see things from a different perspective, she just can't. It's like I'm talking French.

Your question about sexual abuse is a very interesting one. How do BPD mothers who have been sexually abused act? Because my mother was psychotically extreme in the way she taught us about sex and men. It's hard to explain here.

Sometimes I can have a "creative imagination" but you know how sometimes in your life you get extremely strong gut instincts about something that just scream at you? Well I've had a couple of those out of nowhere. One is that my grandmother (mother's mother) was sexually abused by one of her brothers (the one she used to always fight with as an adult but I was too young to understand). This tremendously strong gut instinct hit me when I was looking at my grandmother's old photographs. It's possible not only my grandmother (who likely had BPD/NPD too--she and my mother had an extremely rocky relationship) was sexually abused, but my mother could've been too. That's the other extremely strong gut instinct I got out of nowhere. I was watching an old-fashioned movie and there was a scene with a man abusing a sister and brother, and it hit me then.

But this still doesn't explain why my mother says such crazy things about my father and me, from the time I was very little?

I will also say that as I was "maturing", my mother could not handle it. Her rages were the worst for me when I was about 19-21. I dressed conservatively like she wanted me to for the most part but she couldn't handle it. And yet then there was the other extremely disturbing time I was wearing a new bathing suit (it was pretty, tasteful, yet obvious I was maturing into womanhood) and she screamed "[Dad's name here]! Look at your daughter! Look at her figure! It's gorgeous!"    It made my dad very uncomfortable and it made me very uncomfortable. Why would she do that? It made me very uncomfortable about my body, too.

I am terrified to write this, but I also think my mother had some sexual issues. This came out recently in therapy, and it was because of tremendously hard work I had done in therapy and in another program. I think my brain allowed me to see something huge that I didn't see until after all that work. My mother made me feel very "yucky" and uncomfortable. She would look at me icky from head to toe. She would slam open the bedroom door without knocking. She would come into the fitting room and clothing stores. She often would disrespect my personal space. I never told anyone this before, but when it finally came out in therapy, I got very squirmy and jumpy in my seat and felt violated and yucky. Is this a BPD mother thing? I don't know if she was sexually confused, or just purposely didn't let me have any physical boundaries? Or was it that she thought my father wasn't sexually attracted to her so she was taking it out on me? It's very confusing. As I said, my dad was 99% of time appropriate and a gentleman around us girls. The one time that felt icky I forgive him for because he was just being affectionate and I wanted space. It was in public so I don't think he even realized his affection was bad. My mother was an ice cold ___ so I don't blame him.
Excerpt
I would suggest you read and learn about projection.  Sorry, can't give a link.  Understanding it can go a long way in helping you better understand your mothers behaviors so you can depersonalize things and begin to deal with the emotional part of healing.  As you said, you know this had nothing to do with you so intellectually you have processed this.  Emotional processing and healing is totally different though.  Putting things into the context of projection and understanding how it works can help you (IMO of course).

Thank you for the suggestion! Another poster put a link on here so I will definitely read about that. I know knowledge will only get me so far, but to me, it helps a lot to understand this stuff intellectually. Yes I agree I need to deal with the emotional part of healing. It's been a long painful journey for me but I'm finally dealing with the reality of it all and becoming a healthy adult that my husband deserves. I had no idea how all the thoughts in my head put there by sick people were causing me to act out in anxiety. And sometimes anxiety looks like anger which is just really messed up. I will have to talk with my therapist about the emotional processing piece, because he keeps telling me to "feel my feelings" and I keep telling him that "I don't understand how to." Do you have any suggestions as to how I can work on the emotional processing?

Excerpt
My mother made similar accusations about me, often saying I sided with  my dad against her and that I liked him better.  So I had some of what you experienced but not as intense and no accusations of flirting (which I find disturbing and is why I wonder if your mom was ever sexually abused).

I hate to admit this but because I thought a lot of stuff from childhood was "normal'' because I wasn't ready to see it as abnormal, I guess I thought all mothers joke about their fathers "flirting" with their daughters? I'm so embarrassed about that. I knew in my gut it didn't seem normal, though. But I blamed myself. I think every time I wanted to be around my dad, I felt more and more like a bad daughter. No wonder I have such low self worth and low self esteem. I wasn't doing it to hurt my mother, but she probably felt hurt each time. And I'm certain that's why she'd tell him on the phone at work what a brat I was that day, or how impossible I was acting. Those words hurt me more than anything. I would've rather she beat me. At least with that I could've closed my eyes but with her words I couldn't close my ears.
Excerpt
What do you say now when your mother makes ridiculous statements?

I used to either laugh nervously or just people-please so I'm not sure what I used to say. Now, however, with my ability to actually "hear" what my therapist suggests and not let the unhealthy part of me not allow myself to do what he says, I am able to stand up for myself more. The last time she referred to dad as my "boyfriend", I calmly said, "Mom he's my father, not my boyfriend." And she replied in that damn weird tone of voice of hers (it's like a sadistic-joking tone of voice) "Oh I know, I'm only joking, but he was your first boyfriend". Great. Make me feel like I was some insane toddler who treated her dad like a boyfriend?   I seriously start to question my own sanity. I seriously have to look at myself from an outside perspective (not easy to do) and separate myself from it. I see myself as an adorable little girl who always people-pleased as best she could, maybe I was a little bit "outgoing" and "loud" but I was not a trouble maker or anything like that, and I felt safe around my daddy so I wanted to be around him and I'd rather help him with his chores than to help my mother with hers, because he was patient with me. My mother was extremely tense, extremely inpatient, and I think she just hated being a mother. Her GC was born before me and she would've been happy I'm sure if she never had me, although she liked to tell me that I was very wanted. But I wonder if she's just trying to convince herself of that... .

I have a photo of her with my two sisters before I was born. I used to stare at it and stare at it and just wonder, "Was she normal before I was born? Did *I* cause this?" In my heart I know the truth that I did not, but my head likes to tell me differently.

Excerpt
You do not lack self-awareness!  There is no right or wrong when it comes to recognizing the problematic behaviors of your father.  I agree with the former T about you not being ready (and that is okay) and I very much agree with your assessment of her statements about your fathers behavior.

Thank you. Self-awareness this deep is relatively newish for me over the past few years. It's been life-altering but I try each new day to hone that skill more so I like to check in to see how I'm doing. Yes that former T from almost 30 years ago was amazing. He was validating. I could see it in his eyes that he wanted to say more than he did, and I think he took a chance saying as much as he did. I didn't handle it well (I got very babbly and talked about everything but my parents from then on) but maybe he knew years later as I matured and grew that it'd click. I visited his office about 15 years ago when I was in town (he was on vacation unfortunately) but I left him a thank you letter. He really had a remarkable influence on me. I never, ever wanted to accept any piece of negative truth about my dad. Even my grandmother (mother's mother, the one with BPD/NPD but she was always very sweet, warm, non-manipulative with me--she liked me because I was different than my mother) tried to tell me firmly a few years before she died that my father was a phony, and I firmly asserted that she was wrong. I think it surprised her that I stuck up for him like I did. I wish she was still alive so I could tell her she was right. I used to often get caught in the middle. My father and grandmother hated each other so much. They'd both spew their venom out (well more my dad than my grandma. He raged/vented about her to me, and she just vented) and I'd have to patiently listen and tell them what they needed to hear, in order to soothe their feelings. I guess I learned survival skills early on.

Excerpt
I think you need to start listening to yourself more.  So far, I think you have shown great insight into your experiences, so keep doing what you are doing.  Keep posting and checking what others think, but really, I think you are putting pieces together quite well all on your own.

This is where my struggle has been. This is why therapy takes forever for me. I cannot allow myself the gift of self-validation. And right now, as I am growing and that's starting to build, both sides are fighting with each other--my heart/gut and my head. I'm not sure if that makes sense. It certainly makes me feel like a crazy person but I'm hoping you know what I mean? I guess I've been such a good people-pleasing daughter, that I cannot allow myself to finally say, "It's been them all along" because that goes against every piece of brainwashing and programming they've done in my head. I've killed myself figuratively speaking, so that they may live pain free, if that makes sense. It was always all about them. When my therapist asks me how I'm feeling and I say "I don't know", I mean it. I was never allowed to have my own feelings. It was always about theirs. 

Excerpt
Healing is a process (oh how I hate the truth of that statement).  You can't rush it and you can't intellectualize your way to emotional healing though it is important.

LOL I hate that statement too! I'm impatient and the more I heal, the more I see how much more healing I still have to do. I've got to just go step by step and trust the process. I've spent my life trying to intellectualize my way to emotional healing and it doesn't work. Self help books, analysis--that stuff won't heal me. I wish it was that easy!
Excerpt
Be well!

Thank you! You too!  
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Harri
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2017, 02:49:55 PM »

Hi PFW.  How are you today?

Little girls flirting with their fathers is a normal and very important part of development.  The relationship with the father, for girls, is important for the development of confidence and competency.  It is also important for the reinforcement of femininity and self esteem.  One of the ways this is done is by girls flirting with their fathers.  It is not sexual or shameful.  it is natural and even vital for a girls development.  Do a google search on girls flirt with their fathers.  I did and that is where I got the info I wrote above (www.thesuccessfulparent.com/categories/parent-child-relationship/item/fathers-and-daughters#.WVAAnXopBpV)

The point is, it is normal!  It sounds like your father had a healthy response to it by responding in a positive way but with very firm boundaries.  Your mother?  Yikes.  Her response screams shame to me.  Perhaps her mother did the same to her.  Perhaps her father did not respond appropriately.  It is possible that both occurred and played a big part in how she handled your development into a young woman and her almost trying to deny your sexuality on one hand and flaunting it on the other (thinking of the bathing suit incident). 

Is this a part of BPD?  I can't say for sure.  I do think a lot of it is tied to a complete lack or boundaries.  BPD mothers tend to see their kids as extensions of them and this can and does influence their interactions with their children.  There are many many many posters here who report their BPD mother walking in on them when dressing, showering, bathing etc.  When you feel like it, google covert incest.  You are not alone in this.  My mother had horrible boundaries with me and definitely had very twisted ideas about sexuality.  I remember one time coming home from school.  I had worn either a dress or a skirt with hose.  Well, I got a run in my stocking.  My mom saw it and proceeded to scream at me that I was a wh*re and slob who walked around taunting the boys in school because the run was an invitation for them to go up my dress/skirt.  There I was, my 11 year old self sauntering around just asking all the boys to f*ck me.

Sheesh.  I did not even know what the word f*ck meant then.

Back to your mom accusing you of flirting with your dad and the voice in your head telling you you should have taken care of her and known... .  That is the inner critic telling you lies.  I think Panda gave a link to a thread here that discusses that and ways to combat the voice.  please check out Pete walkers website too for more excellent information.

I am not sure there is a specific method to get rid of the voices and break the hold your mom still has on you.  i am still working on that myself and while it has gotten better, it is still a struggle.  All I can say is to keep questioning, stay in therapy, read about normal/healthy emotional and sexual development in children, and of course keep posting.

You asked what I thought about your instinct that your father was the safer parent.  I think it shows that you are smart and far more attuned to your gut feelings that you think.  We children of are taught to ignore our gut instinct.  We have to to survive.

Excerpt
How do BPD mothers who have been sexually abused act?
I can't say.  All I know is what my mother did and she had her own ways of handling things and acting out her past through me. 

You might want to read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Ann lawson.  It can be a tough read but can answer a lot of the questions you have.  There are also a couple of threads on the book as well.

Excerpt
Do you have any suggestions as to how I can work on the emotional processing?
Nope. Smiling (click to insert in post)  I am smack dab in the weeds on this myself.    i've been shut down for so long and essentially living in a state of mild dissociation that I am still working on this and am no where close to being able to say what to do.  It will come.  It is a process!  <--- I swear this is a phrase my T uses when he does not know the answer!  haha  feel free to strangle me through your monitor  Smiling (click to insert in post)

You did nothing to cause your mothers behaviors or cause her illness.  Your family would not have been just okay without you.  I understand where the feeling is coming from... .and it is a dark place in your mind that was created by your mother. 

For the voices in your head, the inner critic, when you question your own value... .tell the voices to shut up.  Seriously.  Get angry and then use that anger to break down the dark prison your mother built in your head.  Identify the lies and call them out.  Write, yell, sing, draw, whatever but change that script in your head.  It won't happen over night or even in a month, but it will get quieter in your head over time.  Again, it is a process. 

Excerpt
I cannot allow myself the gift of self-validation. And right now, as I am growing and that's starting to build, both sides are fighting with each other--my heart/gut and my head. I'm not sure if that makes sense. It certainly makes me feel like a crazy person but I'm hoping you know what I mean? I guess I've been such a good people-pleasing daughter, that I cannot allow myself to finally say, "It's been them all along" because that goes against every piece of brainwashing and programming they've done in my head. I've killed myself figuratively speaking, so that they may live pain free, if that makes sense
Every single word of this makes sense to me.  I can relate to all of it.  The good news is that brainwashing and programming can be changed as you have already shown.

A friend once told me a while back that the fact that I have issues now is normal.  What would not be normal is to experience what I did and come out of it unscathed.  Yipee!  I am normal in at least one area! 

Good talking to you.  If I missed replying to a specific part of you post and you want feedback, let me know.  so many thoughts in my head!  Thanks for the great discussion.
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2017, 12:48:18 PM »

Hi Peacefromwithin:  
I'm so sorry for what you struggling with and that you feel unsettled.  I agree with the feedback that Harri provided. Your heart is telling you the truth.  You didn't do anything wrong.  I'm sorry that your mom made you feel guilty.  You have nothing to feel guilty about.   I'm glad that you felt safe around your dad.  I agree that your mom was jealous in a very sick way.  She made hurtful and inappropriate comments to try and ruin your relationship with your dad.  Perhaps she didn't want you to look too  good, because you would be competition for her?  Either that, or she didn't want you to attract boyfriends. Harri brings up an interesting point, about the possibility that your mom may have had some level of exposure to sexual abuse, or perhaps, your mom is replaying a script delivered from her mom.

Hi Naughty Nibbler,

Thanks for your post. Sorry I took a couple of days to reply back--I had to let this all sink in a bit more. I have to practice more on listening to what my heart tells me. I just don't understand what sort of mother is jealous of her daughter's relationship with her father. I'd think that a mother would be happy that her daughter and father got along so well.

I don't know what the deal was with my mom. The very first thing she said to my inlaws when the 6 of us had dinner together at their house was: "I can't believe PFW found someone to marry her, she was always so funny looking, oh I'm only joking."   I couldn't believe it. And at the time I had cut my hair short the way she likes it. Then again, just about every single time I've ever seen her, the very first thing she comments on after "hello" is something about my hair and my weight. 

I would think if she hated the way her own mother treated her, that she'd go out of her way not to treat me or my mother sister like that but I guess not. She wanted me to suffer exactly like she did.

Excerpt
I think that jealousy is common with people with BPD.  The situations vary.  Sometimes, a BPD wife will convince her husband to abandon his side of the family and maintain a state of "no contact" with his family, because she is doesn't want to share her husband.  

My mother HATED my father's side of the family. She also hated the people at our place of worship. She always bad mouthed people from my father's side of the family and at the place of worship. It was sad actually. I never saw it as "not wanting to share her husband" but that very well could've been. I kinda saw it more as insecurity and jealousy and wanting to control my father's every move. My husband I used to joke that my father couldn't go to the bathroom without my mother's permission. He never did anything wrong but she kept him on an extremely tight leash and would make fun of people who got divorced or whose husband's cheated on them. Sick sick stuff.

Excerpt
Harri made a good suggestion for you to read up on "projection" The information below should help expand upon that topic.
You might find the articles at the links below helpful:
PROJECTION

FAMILIAR FIGHTS

OVERCOMING CHILDHOOD EMOTIONAL NEGLECT
[/quote]

Thank you so much for these links!   I appreciate it very much. I have to reread them because sometimes if I read when anxious, it doesn't sink in. But I'm nowhere as anxious as I used to be with this stuff and that's a good thing.
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2017, 01:37:35 PM »

Hi PFW.  How are you today?

Hi Harri, 
Thanks for your post. I apologize for not responding sooner. I read your post right away but needed it to sink in. I'm not sure how I am today but the important thing is, I am facing truths.

Excerpt
Little girls flirting with their fathers is a normal and very important part of development.  The relationship with the father, for girls, is important for the development of confidence and competency.  It is also important for the reinforcement of femininity and self esteem.  One of the ways this is done is by girls flirting with their fathers.  It is not sexual or shameful.  it is natural and even vital for a girls development.  Do a google search on girls flirt with their fathers.  I did and that is where I got the info I wrote above (www.thesuccessfulparent.com/categories/parent-child-relationship/item/fathers-and-daughters#.WVAAnXopBpV)

This was really helpful to read! I felt shame from an extremely young age about my father and me. I wish I knew then that it was not my fault, but that my mother was extremely sick, jealous, and insecure and full of hate. It really helped a lot to read that this was all normal. I don't recall flirting but I know I always wanted to be near him. I never smiled in photos unless he made me smile or laugh. That's very telling. I am 100% certain from the time I was a baby that I was terrified of my mother and that she did not mirror me properly with healthy facial expressions, and that the blame was put on me.

I was recently at a family function in which a relative told everyone at the table something embarrassing I did as a baby, that I didn't know about. Fortunately with the hard work I've done, it didn't hurt my feelings one bit and I laughed along with everyone and shared another embarrassing story about myself from when I was young. My therapist was so proud of me for being able to do that on the spot. I guess I knew in my heart that this particular relative was just babbling and not thinking about what she was saying. (I also think she has NPD and needs to put others down, including her own children). It just reiterated for me, too, that the blame was put on me as in "there's something wrong with that child" from the time I was a baby, instead of "there's something wrong with that child's mother". Anyways, my therapist assured me that what I did as a baby was completely normal.

Excerpt
The point is, it is normal!  It sounds like your father had a healthy response to it by responding in a positive way but with very firm boundaries.  Your mother?  Yikes.  Her response screams shame to me.  Perhaps her mother did the same to her.  Perhaps her father did not respond appropriately.  It is possible that both occurred and played a big part in how she handled your development into a young woman and her almost trying to deny your sexuality on one hand and flaunting it on the other (thinking of the bathing suit incident). 

Thank you. :-) My saving grace from childhood were happy moments with my dad. He's an untreated alcoholic, but there were so many good moments that I was often able to overlook the other stuff. However, now that other stuff has been in my head lately, so I guess that means it's time to deal with it in therapy. My dad did have very firm healthy boundaries. My mother and her father were extremely close. So I think my grandmother (uBPD queen/witch and NPD) was insanely jealous of that. I'm pretty sure my grandmother had undiagnosed Aspergers or something else. But whatever was going on in her house, is most likely why she is the way she is. Which is really strange because when she met the psychologist I saw in my 20s who just stated, "PFW is depressed", she went into a hideous rage screaming "YOU'RE GOING TO BLAME ME! YOU PEOPLE ALWAYS BLAME THE MOTHER!" so I wonder what was going on there. My grandmother told me she had sent her to a psychologist as a child because "she wasn't like normal children", "didn't have any friends", and I have to wonder... .Parents didn't take children to psychologists back then.

Anyway I'm getting off track. I'm just relieved that I didn't do anything wrong. Maybe now I can work on letting go of the shame.

Excerpt
Is this a part of BPD?  I can't say for sure.  I do think a lot of it is tied to a complete lack or boundaries.  BPD mothers tend to see their kids as extensions of them and this can and does influence their interactions with their children.  There are many many many posters here who report their BPD mother walking in on them when dressing, showering, bathing etc.  When you feel like it, google covert incest.  You are not alone in this.  My mother had horrible boundaries with me and definitely had very twisted ideas about sexuality.  I remember one time coming home from school.  I had worn either a dress or a skirt with hose.  Well, I got a run in my stocking.  My mom saw it and proceeded to scream at me that I was a wh*re and slob who walked around taunting the boys in school because the run was an invitation for them to go up my dress/skirt.  There I was, my 11 year old self sauntering around just asking all the boys to f*ck me.

Ugh yuck I'm getting all skeeved out all over again with my mother's lack of boundaries. I never had any privacy and she always made me so jumpy. I developed IBS from a very young age because of this. I couldn't even poo in peace. The worst was when I had to go to a doctor for an exam that she had no right being in the room for and yet there she was. I thought she'd be there for moral support or to hold my hand as this was a traumatic exam for someone my age, but she was there to watch.   

Excerpt
Sheesh.  I did not even know what the word f*ck meant then.
That is absolutely disgusting that she said that to you. I also got extremely twisted ideas about sexuality. If my mother could, she would've had me dress in brown bags. I was never allowed any sense of my own identity, and we'd often get into really bad fights in the mall. All I was doing was trying to get clothing that would keep me from getting bullied. She didn't care that I was getting bullied. It was my fault for not ignoring them and for being "too sensitive". (I was bullied very badly by multiple people, mostly other girls). The clothing I picked out was far from over the top. I'd just say, "Mom can I get this?" And she'd scream in her tense way, "NO! THAT'S TOO EXPENSIVE! I'M NOT SPENDING THAT KIND OF MONEY SO YOU CAN HAVE A NAME BRAND!" I'd say, "But... ." and that was it. She'd have a temper trantrum right there in public and then scream, "That's it! You kids find your way home! I'm running away!" and she'd storm out of the store and we'd have to follow her out to the car. And then she'd force me to apologize to her and then vent to my father about what a spoiled rotten brat I was (I was far from it. I was a really good kid. I just was trying to keep from getting bullied).

Excerpt
Back to your mom accusing you of flirting with your dad and the voice in your head telling you you should have taken care of her and known... .  That is the inner critic telling you lies.  I think Panda gave a link to a thread here that discusses that and ways to combat the voice.  please check out Pete walkers website too for more excellent information.

My inner critic is soo freaking loud and hates me a lot. I'm trying to practice telling myself it's lies. Usually I used to try to run away from the inner critic but that just would make it louder. I think my therapist wants me to agree with the inner critic. At least he wants me to agree with OCD type thoughts. I'll have to ask him about this. I will reread the link from Panda and I will look at Pete Walker's website. I have his book on my book list. Thank you so much for giving me solutions. 

I'm still confused about what I read about emotional incest. If anything, it seems dad was more like with me when he would vent and rage complaining about my grandmother, my uncle, the guy at the deli, the person at our place of worship, etc etc. He vented and raged about anyone and anything. If the directions to build something weren't written the way he would've written them, he would vent and rage about that. That's untreated alcoholism and I had no idea what that was until recently. Plus I didn't really allow myself to see these things about my dad until recently because it was too painful to see that truth. I do think my mother and GC sister had an emotional incest relationship because my mother relied on her to be the adult. She often looked to her for emotional support and how to problem solve. It emulated the relationship she had with her father. I feel bad for my GC sister but then again I can't stand her. Her level of arrogance, entitlement, snark, sardonic humor, cruelty and witchiness just absolutely takes the cake. She actually bragged that her former boss had a nervous breakdown (I am certain it was partly due to having to deal with my sister). Who DOES that? That's just plain evil. I would have to figure out what to say to soothe my dad's venting and rages but somehow from a young age I always figured out that as long as I agreed with him, that made him feel better. But I'm not sure if that's emotional incest. Now what my mother did with making me all icky with her lack of physical boundaries and the like (ew I am remembering now about something really yucky when we went bra shopping and my reaction to what she did made her give me an evil smirk and laugh) is some sort of incest, I know that.

Excerpt
I am not sure there is a specific method to get rid of the voices and break the hold your mom still has on you.  i am still working on that myself and while it has gotten better, it is still a struggle.  All I can say is to keep questioning, stay in therapy, read about normal/healthy emotional and sexual development in children, and of course keep posting.

I think I will read more about normal/healthy emotional and sexual development in children. It used to be reading that sort of thing made me depressed and angry for what I didn't have, but now I want to read it so I can see what "normal" is, and validate more for myself what "normal" is not.

Excerpt
You asked what I thought about your instinct that your father was the safer parent.  I think it shows that you are smart and far more attuned to your gut feelings that you think.  We children of are taught to ignore our gut instinct.  We have to to survive.
I can't say.  All I know is what my mother did and she had her own ways of handling things and acting out her past through me. 

The most damaging thing in my experience and opinion to being a child of pwBPD/NPD is being taught to ignore our gut instinct or that our gut instinct is wrong.

Excerpt
You might want to read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Ann lawson.  It can be a tough read but can answer a lot of the questions you have.  There are also a couple of threads on the book as well.

Thank you. I read that book about 10 or so years ago. It was a tough read and I'm not sure how much actually got through, but it helped validate my mother's behavior for me. Now that I'm working harder at being okay with the truth, as well as my work on my own fleas, I will try to read it again. I just have to check with my therapist first because sometimes reading too much of this sort of thing sends me into a depression because my brain can get caught up in compulsively thinking about stuff.

Excerpt
Nope. Smiling (click to insert in post)  I am smack dab in the weeds on this myself.    i've been shut down for so long and essentially living in a state of mild dissociation that I am still working on this and am no where close to being able to say what to do.  It will come.  It is a process!  <--- I swear this is a phrase my T uses when he does not know the answer!  haha  feel free to strangle me through your monitor  Smiling (click to insert in post)

LOL I get it. ;-) Well you seem very healthy and aware for someone in the weeds yourself! You're probably further along than you think. I hadn't thought of this all as "mild dissociation" but that term makes a lot of sense. I often get frustrated that therapy is taking so darn long, but my therapist doesn't remind me that it's a process because I think he knows that'd make me frustrated, . My former therapist and I had a good laugh (he's since retired) when I told him I used to think of therapy as "ok, fix me!"

Excerpt
You did nothing to cause your mothers behaviors or cause her illness.  Your family would not have been just okay without you.  I understand where the feeling is coming from... .and it is a dark place in your mind that was created by your mother. 

THANK YOU for saying that. I have to remind myself of that and it's really, really hard. I told my therapist that not only is that thought engrained into my head, but it's ENGRAVED into my head. I know in my heart that whatever acting out I did, was in reaction to the chaos and raging and venting and all the insanity in my home. My therapist told me that the way I "acted out" wasn't anything out of the norm for a normal child. I'm thinking that means my GC sister, who never acted up, was perhaps stiffling herself and her true feelings in order to people please and keep the monster mother calm. Plus I always behaved perfectly in school, friends' houses, or at work so it's obvious that the problem was HOME.

Ugh. You nailed it when you said, "... .and it is a dark place in your mind that was created by your mother." I really don't think even her death will shut that down. I have to just keep reminding myself it was placed there by a very sick woman.

Excerpt
For the voices in your head, the inner critic, when you question your own value... .tell the voices to shut up.  Seriously.  Get angry and then use that anger to break down the dark prison your mother built in your head.  Identify the lies and call them out.  Write, yell, sing, draw, whatever but change that script in your head.  It won't happen over night or even in a month, but it will get quieter in your head over time.  Again, it is a process. 

I never thought to do this, to yell back at it or get angry at it. But you know what? You just made me see some more truth about myself. Years and years ago, I'd get angry at my husband and I just was able to communicate to him outloud in therapy recently that it never had anything to do with him, but I was projecting out the anger I was feeling from those "voices" in my head. I kept saying I wasn't saying that to push off the responsibility or accountability of it because I feel terrible that I did that. But he said it helped tremendously to hear it because now he understands things more. I guess he always knew how awful they treated me and that it had an effect on me, but he never knew (nor did I) that when I was acting out around him, that it wasn't about him but was my anxiety over not being able to turn off the inner critic put there by my family. Self awareness is a blessing and a curse because I have to work on not allowing myself to go to a place of self-hate and self-loathing over this, but instead be grateful for the self-awareness. I am looking forward to yelling at that inner critic now and telling it that it's just lying to me.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) I'm reminded of when my past T reminded me of the line from the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

Excerpt
Every single word of this makes sense to me.  I can relate to all of it.  The good news is that brainwashing and programming can be changed as you have already shown.

It's wonderful to be in a place where people get it. Did you ever have anyone in your childhood or teens tell you that you were a real good daughter and that your mother was insane? Do you ever wonder if you would've believed it?

Excerpt
A friend once told me a while back that the fact that I have issues now is normal.  What would not be normal is to experience what I did and come out of it unscathed.  Yipee!  I am normal in at least one area! 
LOL that is great to hear! I give us and anyone else a lot of credit for the hard work we are doing!

Excerpt
Thanks for the great discussion
Oops running out of characters here. Thank YOU! 
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 12:50:35 PM »

Peacefromwithin, 

I just wanted to say I had a very similar experience growing up.  I loved spending time with my dad, but my mom would make comments about me being his girlfriend when she would see me cuddling up to him in the couch.  My understanding of what sex is was so roughly formed as it is, but I could understand that daughter as girlfriend was something icky and shameful. For years I had a very confused dissociated attitude toward sex, and I sometimes wonder if those early icky impressions my mom gave me associating closeness with my dad as something sexual had anything to do with me dissociating when it came to sex. 

From my mom's perspective, she didn't have a very emotionally healthy upbringing.  Her father mollested one of her sisters and tried to mollest her.  This on top of dealing with PTSD after surviving a war.   My mom was also dealing with some resentments against my dad at that time re possible infidelity.  Though I've always seen my mom as very irrational.  So I don't know how much truth there is to her suspicion of my dad. 

I am happily married now.  I have both a son and a daughter.  While both kids need attention from both parents, My daughter loves spending time with her dad, and I respect that.  Sometimes I think of how my mom would respond by sexualizing the relationship, acting jealous, reffering to me as a girlfriend --- and I still think yeah what my mom said was really gross and inappropriate.  I can't imagine doing that to my own daughter.  And there is no way that I could say that to my daughter without knowing it was meant to wound. 
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 05:15:46 PM »

I just wanted to say I had a very similar experience growing up.  I loved spending time with my dad, but my mom would make comments about me being his girlfriend when she would see me cuddling up to him in the couch.  My understanding of what sex is was so roughly formed as it is, but I could understand that daughter as girlfriend was something icky and shameful. For years I had a very confused dissociated attitude toward sex, and I sometimes wonder if those early icky impressions my mom gave me associating closeness with my dad as something sexual had anything to do with me dissociating when it came to sex.  

Thank you so much for sharing your similar experience, Pilpel. It really helps me to know I'm not the only one who experienced this huge mind f%ck. (excuse the profanity). I had messed up views about men and sex, too, for a long time. Do you also have issues about your body? Shame? Guilt if someone found you attractive? It seemed like my mother wanted to squelch anything feminine about me.

Excerpt
From my mom's perspective, she didn't have a very emotionally healthy upbringing.  Her father mollested one of her sisters and tried to mollest her.  This on top of dealing with PTSD after surviving a war.   My mom was also dealing with some resentments against my dad at that time re possible infidelity.  Though I've always seen my mom as very irrational.  So I don't know how much truth there is to her suspicion of my dad.  

I'm sorry your mother had molestation in her history. I hear that's common in pwBPD. Wow and PTSD to? I guess it explains a lot. Resentments--my mother used to rage about resentments that happened long before I was even born. It's so sad that she carried all the sh*t around and let it poison her. My dad, too. He was a walking resentment. Resentments over the littlest thing, too. It's sad neither of our parents got any psychological counseling, isn't it?

Excerpt
I am happily married now.  I have both a son and a daughter.  While both kids need attention from both parents, My daughter loves spending time with her dad, and I respect that.  Sometimes I think of how my mom would respond by sexualizing the relationship, acting jealous, reffering to me as a girlfriend --- and I still think yeah what my mom said was really gross and inappropriate.  I can't imagine doing that to my own daughter.  And there is no way that I could say that to my daughter without knowing it was meant to wound.  

That's so great! You've reinvented your life and moved on from your past. Good for you for breaking the chains (a term my first T used). That's not easy to do. I think I need to tell myself that what my mom said was really gross and inappropriate like you do, instead of thinking "what did I do wrong?" or "why did she say that?" I need to remind myself of the facts. That's so cool that now you're a parent, you are being the healthy parent that you never had.

Your last sentence hit me hard. I know it's truth but it's so hard to face the fact that my mother, father, and siblings often said things to me with the sole purpose of it to hurt me. It's just evil. There's no other word for it. I know hurt people hurt, but that's just a whole other kind of evil. I was a sweet, people-pleasing kid. I didn't have an evil cell in my body. They did everything they could to crush my spirit.

I'm so happy for you for getting past your past. I don't have children, but I always wanted to. I think I knew deep down inside I'd screw them up and I didn't want to do that. It's okay though. I remind myself that that was unselfish of me and gave me time to work on myself. I don't think my marriage would've lasted if we had kids. Do your children have a relationship with your parents? Do they know what your mother was like?

Thanks for your post. The 'voice in my head' just said "You did nothing wrong". I guess I finally just heard from my gut/heart and not my head/old tapes. Progress!  

Hugs  
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 12:09:09 AM »

Quote from:  Peacefromwithin
Validation that as a little girl I didn't do anything wrong.

It doesn't matter what your dad did our didn't do,  how he was our wasn't  (which sounds healthy and cute to me... .speaking as the current dad of a 5 year old girl who is often like cuddle-glue towards me), you were a little girl you did nothing wrong,  and as a little girl,  you weren't even capable of doing anything wrong.  Your mother crossed a line putting her filth on your head.  And yes,  it was filth,  completely inappropriate. 

A few months before my ex moved out,  I was making kissy noises on my then D1's head. My ex said very seriously,  "don't kiss her ear!" Then S3 went through a phase where he wanted to kiss me on the mouth. His mom said,  "only mothers should do that!" To tell the truth,  it made me uncomfortable. I hug and cuddle the crap out of him at 7 now,  however. He needs it. 

Those reactions were about her, not me.  I found out later what I had always suspected, that she was molested as a little girl.  So was my mom,  who gave me static for letting then S6 and D4 sleep in the same room. 

These feelings are about them. You know what's right and what's wrong, yes?
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 11:10:10 AM »

It doesn't matter what your dad did our didn't do,  how he was our wasn't  (which sounds healthy and cute to me... .speaking as the current dad of a 5 year old girl who is often like cuddle-glue towards me), you were a little girl you did nothing wrong,  and as a little girl,  you weren't even capable of doing anything wrong.  Your mother crossed a line putting her filth on your head.  And yes,  it was filth,  completely inappropriate.  

Hi Turkish,  

Thank you for your reply. Yes my dad was very healthy and very cute with us when we were little. Despite his faults, (untreated alcoholic behaviors) I will always be extremely grateful for all that he did for us when we were little. It was my saving grace. He may at times still make 5-alarm fires out of spilled milk, but often times he had the patience of a saint with us and was kind, loving, and nurturing. He was likely brainwashed by uBPD/NPD mother, too.

LOL I was like "cuddle-glue" toward my dad too, but he didn't cuddle with me, that wasn't allowed. But I did everything possible to be near to him. I know I did nothing wrong. I was just a little girl who loved her daddy because of his calming, nurturing, loving energy. He made me smile and laugh. He made silly faces and noises that made me giggle and he loved to see me happy. He may have uNPD but I think part of the reason I put up with it, is because of how he made me feel so loved and safe as a little girl when I had to deal with my monster mother.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing that she put filth in my head. Those words are very helpful. I wish to god someone had told me decades ago that she's a very sick woman and nothing she says about me is true. The nearest I had to that was when a neighbor, (who my parents later sued--long story and undeserved) stopped me while I was helping my dad shovel snow "PFW, you are such a good kid. I always see you outside helping your dad rake leaves or shovel snow".

I remember just standing there in shock and yet in awe at her words. She and her husband often would see me or my eldest sibling run out of the house without our shoes on, (during one of mom's rages) so I am assuming they knew what was going on. They'd always give me big, warm smiles, say hello to me (they even got my name right! I can count on one hand the number of times my mother got my name right, and no I am not being "too sensitive". BPD mothers do that kinda thing to extreme, because of the hatred they have for the SGC and they want us dead and to never have existed in the first place). I swear that kinda thing was gold. They said my name. Acknowledged my existence. Looked me in the eyes and gave me a big warm smile. They asked me how I was. GOLD!  

Sorry I got off track.

Excerpt
A few months before my ex moved out,  I was making kissy noises on my then D1's head. My ex said very seriously,  "don't kiss her ear!" Then S3 went through a phase where he wanted to kiss me on the mouth. His mom said,  "only mothers should do that!" To tell the truth,  it made me uncomfortable. I hug and cuddle the crap out of him at 7 now,  however. He needs it.  

Kissy noises on your D1's head is PRECIOUS!     Okay the ear thing  that happens accidentally so really it's no big deal. Yes it feels funny but your ex is crazy because it's easily rectified with "Oops sorry honey did I kiss your ear? Did that feel funny? I meant to kiss your head! And then you could kiss her head like crazy, make her giggle, and all would be fine. Seriously not a big deal! Your ex has issues.

Kissing on the mouth wasn't allowed in my family. Neither was saying "Love you!" My mother laughed at me when I was a little girl and I asked her (it was SO hard to get the words out) why she never says "I love you". I love that you "hug and cuddle the crap out of" S3. I can't put into words how much that kinda stuff from dad helped me. I'm certain I'd be long dead by now if my dad wasn't as nurturing and affectionate as he was.

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Those reactions were about her, not me.  I found out later what I had always suspected, that she was molested as a little girl.  So was my mom,  who gave me static for letting then S6 and D4 sleep in the same room.  

I am sorry to hear that she and your mom were molested. But this really does help put things in perspective. I am almost certain now that my mom and grandmother were, too. (And my mother in law, but that's my husband's stuff, not mine.) I can't say anything about S6 and D4 sleeping in the same room because my male cousin and I used to sleep in the same room sometimes after play dates. We never played doctor or anything close to it. We were completely sexually stunted children, though (I think my mother and brother were molested by my grandmother's brother).  

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These feelings are about them. You know what's right and what's wrong, yes?

It's the constant fight between my head and my gut. This is new for me. Usually I just listen to my head (which is full of all the old incorrect tapes). I'm trying to allow myself permission to listen to my gut. I know in my heart that my gut is strong, and that it had just be stunted and shut down. But yes, I do know what's right and what's wrong. But I sabotage it because of the lies that my uBPD/NPD mother and uNPD enabling father tell me and other people that it's ME and not them. They never took anything I said out of my mouth seriously, ever.

Ugh why am I seeing them next month? Even T said, "guilt is not a good enough reason to see them... ." I'm not sure if he meant that I should only see them if I said "I love them, miss them, and want to spend time with them" or if he is trying to save me from insanity and heartache?
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