Feeling of responsibility keeping me in the marriage - Part II

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'll pass on some advice that works... as long as you do it consistently.  At least it works for me.

Trying to convince a pwBPD that is raging to behave is unproductive... .as you have found out.  It leads you to lecture and explain... vice take action.

So... .what I do when my wife wants to put on a show for the kids, is I send the kids to their room.

I have a lot of children... .so it's a bit different for you.  

"kid's... this conversation is not for you.  Go to your room and shut the door."

The pwBPD is left in an indefensible position... .is she really going to explain to an authority that the kids should stay and listen to (fill in the blank).

Most of the times I have this recorded as well.  She knows this is likely the case.

She tried to stop it once... .it didn't work.  I got kids to rooms and doors shut.

Several other times she huffed and the fire went out of her since she had no audience.

Please understand the damage this is doing to S4... watching this.  Protect your son... .don't try to convince pwBPD this is damaging.  Be consistent.

Next thing...

Suggested internal rules for you.

Zero action from you... .zero... .when under threat or rage.  Zero.  No money moves... .nothing.

That's my policy.  My wife thinks I'm an a hole for doing it... .she has thought that before hand too.

You are going to be a full time caregiver for a while... what can be done with the cats?

FF

[formflier]

I'll pass on some advice that works... as long as you do it consistently.  At least it works for me.

Trying to convince a pwBPD that is raging to behave is unproductive... .as you have found out.  It leads you to lecture and explain... vice take action.

So... .what I do when my wife wants to put on a show for the kids, is I send the kids to their room.

I have a lot of children... .so it's a bit different for you.  

"kid's... this conversation is not for you.  Go to your room and shut the door."

The pwBPD is left in an indefensible position... .is she really going to explain to an authority that the kids should stay and listen to (fill in the blank).

Most of the times I have this recorded as well.  She knows this is likely the case.

She tried to stop it once... .it didn't work.  I got kids to rooms and doors shut.

Several other times she huffed and the fire went out of her since she had no audience.

Please understand the damage this is doing to S4... watching this.  Protect your son... .don't try to convince pwBPD this is damaging.  Be consistent.

Next thing...

Suggested internal rules for you.

Zero action from you... .zero... .when under threat or rage.  Zero.  No money moves... .nothing.

That's my policy.  My wife thinks I'm an a hole for doing it... .she has thought that before hand too.

You are going to be a full time caregiver for a while... what can be done with the cats?

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Prof-
All I can say is... .wow... .I am so so sorry for what you're enduring.

Please ask yourself this question... .Are the 26 cats and kittens REALLY making a positive difference in her behavior?  If not, reduce that stress on yourself and kindly inform whomever that you're truly sorry, but you can no longer provide foster care.  It sounds like you're doing the care-taking of those little animals as well, and you can only do so much.  Your wife may rage, but she's going to rage anyway.

No matter what, please go camping with your S4 (if that possibility is still on the table).  I feel you and your child REALLY need that time with your dad.  Plus, you'll get some good rest in nature.  Maybe your wife can spend that time with her maid of honor.

I don't mean to scare you, but Please don't allow your wife to take your son anywhere without you.  Her behavior is is too unpredictable and it does not seem she can be trusted to properly care for him.

Really consider enlisting the help of your wife's sister.  It feels like it's time for her family to step in and assist you.

i cannot recall who said this, but an excellent point was made about how your wife will handle your son as he grows up.  This child deserves love and calmness in his life.  And so do you.

Your wife does appear to have issues that may require in-patient treatment.  It's a hard thing when we have to admit things are beyond our control and expertise.  But sometimes they just are and we need to seek outside assistance.  Does summertime feel like a good time to look into this possibility?

I wish the best for you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[formflier]

Really consider enlisting the help of your wife's sister.  It feels like it's time for her family to step in and assist you.
 

I don't know enough about your story to comment specifically on this idea.

In general, involving the FOO of a pwBPD to "help" a pwBPD get better is not a good idea.  Many of the behaviors and attitudes were learned in the FOO.

A decision to involve them should be carefully discussed with a T and discussed, in detail, on these boards before going forward. 

FF

[prof]

I ended up nodding off in my office for a couple hours before I went home last night.

I called uBPDw when I was 20 minutes away.  She told me not to come yet, as a sheriff deputy was there.  The good news:  he was there because uBPDw had contacted the cat rescue to take the kittens, and the rescue ladies didn't want to come over without law enforcement there since we were fighting.

I parked my car a few blocks away from our house.

After the sheriff deputy left, she called me.  She wanted me to promise that I wouldn't walk out until our MC appointment next week.  If I couldn't, then she was going to take S4 to a women's shelter.  I couldn't make that promise.  After we went back and forth for a while, I told her that I wasn't going to talk any more and hung up.  I tried to get some sleep in my car.

I woke about to a dream around 5 am that she had found my parking spot and was raging at me.  I drove by our house.  Her car was still there.  I started driving back to my office and stopped for breakfast.  I turned my phone back on (I had turned it off after the phone call last night).  Soon after, she texted asking me to come back for S4's sake.  I went home after breakfast.

She's been very sad and cuddly all morning.  And also very weak, asking for my help to get around the house.  She promises not to fight until MC next week.

We'll see how things go.

[formflier]

Prof,

   

You have good instincts about not making a promise that is unhealthy.  You know she would have accepted the promise, made you break it by raging and then blame you... .while ignoring her raging.

Do you have recorder app on your phone?  Is your phone locked (private)?

Don't let her know you are recording, use only if it keeps you out of jail or matters to authorities.

Can you verify all the kittens are gone?  And that your wife was the one that did this?

If this is true... you need to "build a bridge" toward her.  I can help with some healthy gestures... .if it's true.

FF

[formflier]

What does "going back and forth a bit" look like?

Referencing the conversation about going to a womens shelter.  Looking back... .how could you have ended that conversation earlier... .and "healthier"?

FF

[flourdust]

Overall, sounds like you got some positive outcomes out of this:

1. Kittens gone! I'm impressed that she took that step herself. That seems like a healthy move to remove a source of stress.

2. You avoided making a boundary-busting agreement, and you kept yourself away when you sensed it would lead to raging.

[DaddyBear77]

What are your gut feelings about the incident last night where the deputies showed up, stayed at your house, and you were told not to come home? I don't think you SHOULD have gone home but what would have happened if you did?

Also, I echo the congratulations for not making a promise you couldn't / wouldn't keep. I haven't been able to handle this one at all so I know it's not easy.

[prof]

You have good instincts about not making a promise that is unhealthy.  You know she would have accepted the promise, made you break it by raging and then blame you... .while ignoring her raging.

Not sure if they're good instincts as I've frequently made many such promises in the past!  But I'm definitely learning.

Do you have recorder app on your phone?  Is your phone locked (private)?

Don't let her know you are recording, use only if it keeps you out of jail or matters to authorities.

I've used the default video recording app a few times (video of the inside of my pocket while she raged a few times a couple weeks ago, and also yesterday's video right after she pushed me).  It wasn't locked, but is now after your suggestion.

Can you verify all the kittens are gone?  And that your wife was the one that did this?

If this is true... you need to "build a bridge" toward her.  I can help with some healthy gestures... .if it's true.

Yes, they're gone (except for the one we adopted).  I trust my wife's story -- I have no idea how else they would have left.

What does "going back and forth a bit" look like?

Referencing the conversation about going to a womens shelter.  Looking back... .how could you have ended that conversation earlier... .and "healthier"?

It was essentially the following:

uBPDw:  "I want to work this out, but I need you to promise that you won't walk out on me until MC.  It hurts me more than anything else.  I would rather have you yell and scream or hit me (!) than have you walk out again.  Recall that my dad walked out on us when I was little, never to return, and [previous LTR] walked out on me too."
prof:  "I understand that it hurts you, but I feel that walking out is the healthiest response when you begin to get abusive, or when I feel that I might.  I want to work this out too, but I can't make that promise."
rinse and repeat about 20 times

In retrospect, I could have ended it after it was clear she was repeating it the second time.

What are your gut feelings about the incident last night where the deputies showed up, stayed at your house, and you were told not to come home? I don't think you SHOULD have gone home but what would have happened if you did?

My gut is that uBPDw was being honest -- they were there at the request of the cat rescue ladies for their protection in case of some crazy domestic abuse incident.  (We're probably a pretty unusual home in this area in that we don't own any guns.  So I certainly understand the cat rescue ladies' request.)

I would guess that the sheriff deputy would have asked me to come back later.  Of course, my worst fear was that I'd be riding away in handcuffs on some abuse charge.  It took me a little while to fall asleep last night.  Every time a car drove by (not very frequent, fortunately, at that hour and in my neighborhood), I was afraid it might be a cruiser looking for me.

[prof]

S4 was very cuddly when he woke up.  He told me that he didn't like mommy screaming at me. 

I brought the camping trip up with uBPDw.  (I probably should have done this much sooner, as S4 and I would leave tomorrow.  We planned it weeks/months ago, but it hasn't come up in a while with all the kitten/divorce lawyer/etc. drama.)   The thought of us leaving for 2 nights made her nauseous.

I haven't promised not to go, but I'm definitely leaning toward staying home at this point.  I floated the idea of setting up a tent in the backyard this weekend and having a little mini camping trip with S4.  Even that made her anxious.

[DaddyBear77]

Of course, my worst fear was that I'd be riding away in handcuffs on some abuse charge.  It took me a little while to fall asleep last night.  Every time a car drove by (not very frequent, fortunately, at that hour and in my neighborhood), I was afraid it might be a cruiser looking for me.

I had the same thought - glad to hear it was crossing your mind. Maybe think a little more about why the rescue ladies got the idea they would be in danger if you were there.

S4 was very cuddly when he woke up.  He told me that he didn't like mommy screaming at me. 

I've heard this kind of thing a lot - heartbreaking.

I brought the camping trip up with uBPDw.  (I probably should have done this much sooner, as S4 and I would leave tomorrow.  We planned it weeks/months ago, but it hasn't come up in a while with all the kitten/divorce lawyer/etc. drama.)   The thought of us leaving for 2 nights made her nauseous.

I haven't promised not to go, but I'm definitely leaning toward staying home at this point.  I floated the idea of setting up a tent in the backyard this weekend and having a little mini camping trip with S4.  Even that made her anxious.

I would challenge you to think differently about this.

It's not your job to prevent your wife's nausea and anxiety. See my previous posts where I referred to myself as "Human Xanax." I get the drive to do that, but I think it's the unhealthy parts of us taking the reigns.

It IS your job to take care of your child and give him once-in-a-lifetime experiences. Camping in the backyard isn't a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

[formflier]

On the camping thing.  pwBPD (and from her story... .her in particular) have fear of abandonment.  You have a choice to let HER fear control your life... .or not.  And by extension, your son's life.

This bridge will need to be crossed sometime... ."problems" like this get worse the longer they go on... .


On the "back and forth thing".   

Drop "you" from your vocabulary.  Own YOUR choices and identify "the" issue that is causing YOU to make a choice.  If you wife wants to "own" the issue (let's say abuse)... .that's up to her.  It's not up to you to "convince" her that she needs to own it.  It IS up to you to make sure YOU don't own it.  So... .identify it and leave it on the floor.  If she picks it up... .good.  If she leaves it on the floor... .her choice.

So... .what does that look like.

blah blah blah... .don't leave me until MC... .why do you leave... .blah blah blah

"I will leave a conversation when there are threats between us"

change threats to be specific... .the more specific the better.

Let's break down that statement.  "I" (you own it) (your action... .not hers) ( you identify the issue) and most importantly you reference "us"... .togetherness... .relationship... .a couple. 

This can be varied as well.

"Hey babe... .I'm sure you agree togetherness is important.   Can we be together without (identify the issue)... .but no blame... .leave it up to her to figure out.

You are on the right track... .

FF

[prof]

Left for camping while uBPDw was asleep. Terrified but soo excited

[flourdust]

Enjoy!

One thing you may experience is your son being relaxed and happy without the fear of his mother blowing up at any time. The time I have alone with my daughter improved in quality about 1000% after my wife moved out, because we were no longer ... .wait for it ... .walking on eggshells.

[DaddyBear77]

Truly inspiring prof - I hope you, your dad, and your son have an amazing time together!

[AnuDay]

I dont mean to crash the party but this cant end good. You will trigger her abandonment fear.  Whats the plan? You know she will call and harass you and ruin your trip.  If you dont talk to her there will be hell to pay when you get back.  Prepare for the storm. Prepare to reassure her everything will be ok when you get back.  Have fun. Thanks for the updates

[formflier]

Nice work!   

FF

[Hopeful_Me]

He isn't responsible for her triggers. She is.


Sometimes detachment has to come when the toxic person is sleeping. With therapy, and other modes of help, he can come to a place where boundaries are regularly practiced. Im glad you went, Prof. You are taking care of you, your boy and ultimately, her. You are breaking the sick, dysfunctional pattern and not feeding her disease.

Let us know how it went.

[prof]

Just got back home a few hours ago.

S4 had an amazing time -- there were a number of other kids his age there, and they had a blast in the sandbox pretty much the whole weekend.

I had a largely amazing time.  It was great seeing my dad and lots of old friends, and being in a place that I love.  However, the experience was soured somewhat by thinking about what I had done to uBPDw  and how she would react.

The amazing thing is that when I got home, she was the one who was apologetic for all the rages and how much responsibility for household chores, parenting, and her own medical care she has passed on to me over the years.  It was obviously an incredible painful weekend for her, but she seems to have done a ton of soul searching about our relationship.  We'll see how this goes.

[prof]

On the first full day back from camping, S4 and I went with uBPDw to her doctor's appointment (2 hr drive) -- this is the doctor that manages her pain from the auto-immune disease.

The doctor wants to slowly wean her off the opiates, thinking they might be causing more problems than they're helping, e.g., contributing to her depression.  So she went down a bit on oxycodone dosage (15 mg -> 10 mg, 4x day).  uBPDw is really concerned about this, worried that the withdraws will add even more stress to her already stressful life.  (The doctor did prescribe clonidine for this, but uBPDw doesn't think it will work.)

She's out of weed now and is starting to jones for some more.  Her dealer (the one that stayed with us for a while a few weeks back) is out for a few days.  She floated the idea of driving around the city looking for street dealers -- with S4 in the car!  I quickly shot that down.

Her big message yesterday to me was that her pain and withdraws will be preventing her from fulfilling all the promises she made to me when I got back from the camping trip, and that I need to be patient and supportive.

I've been patient and supportive for 7 years.  Not sure how much more I can handle.

[formflier]

OK... .I'm seeing some introspection from your wife about her problems affecting the r/s.  There is also some blame-shifting... .perhaps.

Opiates are bad business.  I'm a disabled vet... and much of my medical care and physical therapy routine is designed to keep me off opiates.  Yes, they are effective with pain but bring other issues as well.

Can you describe your wife's health care team to us.

Is their a psychiatrist?  Is the pain guy an anesthesiologist?

Do the doctors know about the weed use?

How did you answer her "promise" that she couldn't fulfill her promise?

FF

[prof]

Can you describe your wife's health care team to us.

Is their a psychiatrist?  Is the pain guy an anesthesiologist?

Yes, she has a psychiatrist.  The pain doctor is actually a supportive oncologist.  uBPDw's old pain doctor was overwhelmed by her case and referred her.

She also sees a myriad of specialists (pulmonologist/rheumotologist/neurologist/gastrointerologist/cardiologist).  However, she very frequently cancels these appointments.

Do the doctors know about the weed use?

Yes -- the pain doctor actually encouraged it.  (Edibles, though, and not smoking.  uBPDw claims edibles don't work for her.)

How did you answer her "promise" that she couldn't fulfill her promise?

I think I just said, "Okay."  This is pretty much my standard response to most things.  (A music teacher in high school used to call me the "Okay Man".)  uBPDw hates it, because she's never really sure what it means.  And she's right -- sometimes it means I'm totally on board with what she says, and sometimes I'm just humoring her.  Yesterday was probably more toward the latter.

She's in the bathroom smoking right now (which is one thing she promised not to do any more when I got back) after getting angry at me a moment ago.  She had opened up a container of kitten milk powder (alas, some of the kittens are back... .), but had misplaced the lid.  She said, "I can't find the lid."  And then a moment later, "I'm serious -- I can't find the lid."  And then she starting raging that I didn't come help her.

I didn't realize she needed help.  She never asked for help -- I thought she was just complaining!

[formflier]

Did she ask if kittens could come back?

You are setting a precedent here about how decisions are made for your child's environment.

FF

[prof]

Did she ask if kittens could come back?

Yes.  It was supposed to be only one litter.  It was the easiest -- just feed the mom and the kittens are good to go.

However, even uBPDw didn't realize that we were also getting one of the other litters back (just two kittens).

We have not gotten back the two litters that needed the most care/created the most stress.  I intend to keep it that way.

[formflier]

 I intend to keep it that way.

Who decided that it was OK for one liter to come back?

What is the positive outcome for your family?  There may be some, but given how the last thing got out of hand... .why start down the road at all?

Much much better, IMO, to set up goals/rewards.  If they achieve or accomplish xyz then abc. This puts the responsibility in their lap.  IF they want to blame others for their failure to xyz... .that's their choice.

FF