Tried to have a discussion about issues - went terribly. Unsure what to do.

[moonrise]

Have been married to my uBPD husband for just under a year. In the past couple of weeks I feel like my whole view of the situation has changed, although nothing about the relationship itself has changed. I think a longer period of "bad days" with less "good days" in between allowed me and I get past the initial emotional reaction and think clearly. I now know that just because he is suffering that it is not okay for him to treat me like crap and that I need to put myself first sometimes. We've had a few days out with my parents lately and I felt like the only things he was saying to me were negative, disguised as jokes. And I started to feel angry and upset that I can't remember the last time he gave me a compliment. Also he's stopped taking his antidepressants and stopped seeing his psychologist, and is drinking as much as he ever did. So after days of trying to talk to him I finally made sure to have a talk about everything. He says he doesn't think the treatment works and the only thing that will make him better is changing his life (he hates his job and has been off sick for months). I expressed doubts and made some suggestions for treatment to which he insinuated I didn't know what he was talking about (I work in he health service and my best friend has been treated for BPD). So we moved on to general relationship stuff which was me saying that I didn't feel he was treating me well and that he drinks too much. He said I was "attacking him" and when I tried to bring up his negative comments he kept asking me to give specific examples and saying that since I couldn't remember the exact words I was basically talking rubbish and how was he supposed to remember if I couldn't, it was one tiny isolated incident etc. Shouldn't it be enough for me to say I feel like I'm not being treated well and it should stop? Basically felt like I had to "prove" everything I was saying. And he told me lately he's been trying (by leaving the house and having days out together) and that I haven't been trying at all, which is so hurtful because I feel like I've given so much but can't prove it. I gave some examples of the things I've done to help in the past and he said "no I'm talking about the past two weeks".
I suggested getting couples counselling and he said he needs to deal with his issues alone first. Fine, but he's not dealing with him. And when I brought up the fact that he made me pay all of our rent and bills because he'd run out of sick pay (I'm a student and only work 15hrs a week) but still spent hundreds of pounds on alcohol in the month, I was "pointing out his flaws". He wouldn't apologise for anything because he had "too much to apologise for". He kept repeating over and over that we should start by spending time together and maybe something will click into place. And maybe then he can focus on showing me affection.
I just feel like my words are being twisted and nothing that I feel matters, it became all about him again. I'm close to my breaking point and feel like I would be happier without him but I also feel like I have a responsibility to work on the relationship. I just feel like I've been waiting five years for things to get better and don't know how much longer I can wait. I just don't know what to do.

[formflier]

I think it is best for you to hit the "pause" button on trying to do or talk about things in your r/s... .for a couple days.

Read over the workshops on improving... .and then ask questions.  I see on your other thread... they have given you a link.

I am positive we can help you stabilize the r/s and help you feel better about YOUR role in the r/s.  It will take time... and some of what you may learn will be counter-intuitive.

For now... .try not to convince him of things.  Listen for a few minutes and then excuse yourself to take care of you.

I'm glad you found us!   

FF

[babyducks]

hi moonrise

welcome.

I've certainly had those conversations like you described and appreciate just how upsetting and frustrating they can be.

A couple of things that might be helpful for you to understand why the conversation went the way it did.

People who have the traits of BPD process information, and life really, differently than you and I do.   

First BPD is a shame based disorder,... .so yes he will react as if he is being attacked because to him it truly feels that way.    I am not saying you were attacking,   just that it really does feel that way to him.

Second,... .in emotionally fraught situations a pwBPD (person with BPD) will often overload perhaps just slightly quicker than you and I might.   At which point they will repeat the same phrase or fused with a particular train of thought.    They are not deliberately being difficult,  they are having trouble processing all the information swirling about.  in the conversation you described my partner would have overloaded after about 15 minutes.   anything past that point would have been an exercise in futility.   If I were to kitchen sink her, hit her with a list of 5 or 6 topics she would have completely emotionally dsyregulated on me.   

Third,  a pwBPD often has poor executive functioning especially under stress.   What that means is it is hard for them to trouble shoot, problem solve or make decisions, even more so when emotions are running high.   My partner used to have a very difficult time making even simple decisions.  I had to learn to frame my questions in ways that allowed her to process them.  For instance if I said 'do you want to go out to dinner?'   I would pretty much always get a No.   If I said 'how would you feel about going out to that little Italian place on the corner or maybe the Chinese place down the road?'  I was much more likely to get a more detailed answer.  I might get Italian sounds good or she might surprise me and say neither I want hamburgers tonight.   By narrowing the options to two, it was easier for her to come to a decision.

Fourth,... .you probably don't want to engage in trying to come up with specific examples,... .that's what we call here,  JADEing.   Justifying, Arguing, Defending and Explaining and it usually leads to an argument.    It's a no win.   He is going to attempt to get you to JADE because that is how he processes life,... .if you Explain it, he can Argue it and make it someone else's fault.   

Last,... .there are methods, techniques for communicating better in situations like you describe.   You can find them in that list on the right hand side of the page... .    It's not easy and they don't always work each and every time.   but they can help.

I understand being close to your breaking point.    It is exhausting.    Reaching out to this site,  reading here and posting is a good thing to do.    It can help you to make an educated decision rather than one born out of tiredness and frustration.   

What do you think?    Anything on this website strike you?

'ducks

[moonrise]

Thanks so much for your reply, that was really helpful and made it a lot easier to see the conversation from his point of view. I have read a lot of the guides on here but sometimes find it difficultt to apply them to specific situations, but this makes a lot of sense to me. I'm trying to use validation and some of the other communication skills I've read about here. Any tips on where to go from here? The plan is to let him recover for a few days as he's dysregulated right now, and then let him know that I understand why he felt attacked etc. I tend to let my emotions get the best of me, so I'm trying my best to stick to the tools on here! But I'm not sure what to focus on, there are a lot of things we need to deal with - in hindsight, blurting them all out at once wasn't the best strategy but I think they'd just been building up for a while and the metaphorical dam broke. Now I just want to take some small first steps in the right direction (once he feels up to it) but I'm not sure where to start. Thank you so much for your insight though babyducks, it really helped me make sense of things.

[babyducks]

HI moonrise,

for a pwBPD feelings = facts.  so you want to aim carefully at the validation target.   you don't want to validate the invalid... .   you didn't attack him... .so don't validate that... .you can validate that it was a difficult conversation and it didn't go quite the way you had hoped but still you thought XYZ was a good point (pick out something you thought went well) and maybe someday you can come back and talk again about ABC.   Pick one point.

It's actually hard to learn to validate.   And it's easier to learn on someone you are less emotionally invested in.   You can practice here on the boards or with people you know other than your husband.    At first it might be easier to try SET statements.   Support Empathy Truth.   If I was going to try a SET statement with you it might look like this.

but I think they'd just been building up for a while and the metaphorical dam broke.

Of course, I can see how there is a lot going on and much of it is hard to deal with stuff.  (supportive?   maybe?    )    Any one would have been overloaded and frustrated.   It's perfectly natural.  I know in similar situations I've felt horribly confused and baffled.  (empathy)   What experience has shown me is that it's very easy to deadlock in a circular conversation that is going no where.   Learning the tools on how to avoid that takes time.  (truth)

It can take longer for a pwBPD to return to emotional baseline, so waiting for a while is probably a good idea.   and start small.    try to break the things you need to deal with down into smaller more manageable items.  pick an easy one first not the toughest thing on the list.   

what do you think?   does that sound like a plan?

'ducks

[formflier]

Spend most of your time focused on future... .vice digging up old conversations.  He will likely remember the "feeling" and not the details.

Stick with neutral topics.  If he brings up the bad conversation... .listen.  Try to limit talk to 10 to 15 minutes... .assure him you will be back to it. 

Try hard to stay friendly... .concerned.

If you feel the need to correct... .instead say you need time to consider.

Slow things down.

FF

[moonrise]

Really appreciating the advice and examples. Intended to follow a plan based on all that, but you know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men. Made a mistake today, was trying to avoid any sensitive topics as he's obviously still emotionally not ready. But I got very anxious about whether to keep him company or leave him alone - I'm usually good at just removing myself from the situation and focusing on something else when I need to but during the argument in the original post he complained that we're not talking much and about me doing things in a different room/not actively engaging him. But when I ask whether he wants to be left alone or kept company I get the don't know/don't care response. And I just find myself terrified of doing the "wrong" thing and I get terrible anxiety about it so I find the "don't know/do whatever you want" answer very hard to deal with and long story short it ended in another argument. I still plan to follow the advice given above but I know it will take longer for him to get back to baseline now and I'm really annoyed at myself, it feels like such a setback.

[babyducks]

hi moonrise,

People with BPD have harmfully intense emotions.   They are extremely sensitive.   They can view someone leaving a conversation or leaving the room as a mini abandonment.    They have trouble self soothing and will lash out.

What you do, stay in the room or leave the room really depends on what you want... .you can't help him soothe his feelings.   If you want to do something in the other room, leave.   If you want to stay and do something together stay... .  it's not your job to manage his emotions or help him feel better.

In a more typical r/s when one member of the couple expresses a need for more contact the couple will normally negotiate and resolve the issue together.   That's very hard to do when you are with a pwBPD.   It's very hard to negotiate a shared solution.    It's not that you are doing something wrong.   You're not.   

Obviously how you leave a conversation or how you leave the room matters... .   storming out with door slamming = bad.   

hope this helps

'ducks