Trying to break the cycle

[Arlip]

Hello,

I am new here.  I have some major marital issues.  I am trying very hard to avoid a divorce.  I have 3 kids.  One is 14 and is a step daughter.  She lives mostly with her father.  Long long sad story there.  I have 2 kids with my wife.  One 2 year old daughter, and a 3 month old boy.

I can say for most major practical issues we have a great life setup.  But we struggle to be a happy couple.  I took counselling with my wife for a few years off and on.  Never really got anywhere with it.  Then she demanded it was all me, and I went to counselling myself for about 3 years.  During this time the counselor recommended "walking on eggshells" which I did not know it was a BPD book.  After quickly reading the whole thing and being very excited and sad since I feel my wife fits a high functioning BPD, I told the counselor thanks and told her what I thought.  She quickly said we are not here to diagnose your wife, we will not go that way. 

I have not been seeing the counselor for a year or so (other reasons).  I feel I have grown hugely in relationship matters after those sessions coupled with reading about 20 good relationship books, and also giving myself to Christianity and learning the Bible.  However our relationship is only getting worse.

Over the last few months my brother in law moved within a few miles of us.  And we are good friends.  Last night we spoke a lot and he says all this is how his mother treated them.  And again that story is a long long sad story.  So I feel I have to break the cycle.

I feel I need some help here.  Not 100% sure my wife is BPD, but I have been isolated from my family and friends and have no one to turn to.  The only one is my brother in law, and that has its intricacies. 

Any help or advise would be a god send.

Thanks

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[Lollypop]

Hi airlip

Welcome to the forum. I normally spend my time on Parenting and I've popped over here and saw your post. I can really relate to what you're saying. I've been married for 35 years and let's just say my own upbringing and childhood experiences weren't good, I think my dad was BPD.

Marriage is tough, we've had some dodgy moments but somehow we kept at it and I can honestly say we're now happy. There's been many times that we've both felt differently though!

However our relationship is only getting worse.

How do you feel it's getting worse?

It strikes me that your wife has currently got a lot to handle with her young baby, two year old and a teenager. Boy, that's a handful. I'd be feeling overwhelmed and stressed to be honest. Are you both getting any sleep with the baby? Do you feel your wife is managing ok?

I look back at can see how hard life was raising a young family. All relationships suffer when there's so much going on. It's easy to forget the "coupledom" part of family life.

I'm just trying to get a handle for what's going on. I'd be good if you could share a bit more.

I'm sorry you haven't got much support and I can see that your BIL might not be the best person to offload to.

LP

[pearlsw]

These issues have left me isolated from family and friends as well. Many people cannot understand why one stays with people who exhibit such behavior. At times I ask that myself, but I simply want it to work out, for us to stay together. It does take a huge toll. I am impressed by how much work you have done to improve things already. Stress can certainly add to the problem! Has she ever been responsive in any way to seeking help? My partner is at least good about being open to learning, though he does not like the labels or the notion there might be a mental health issue here.

Even though we seem to have reconciled yesterday, because he was away all day I am still terrified as I sit here this morning wondering which version of him I will see when he wakes up. He can shift very fast from the person who loves me to the person who hates me.

Perhaps at this moment just the additional support of folks here who listen can get you through. I am new here and still learning... .I don't want to overpost and respond to everything I see because I am interested in hearing other voices, but I... .hope more people will write replies. It helps all of us to interact a bit, takes away some of that isolation. I know I desperately need that lately. Wishing you peace!

[Arlip]

Thank you for your posts.

To answer your question lypop, It has been getting worse in that she has forced me to live in another room, even though I plead that that is not going to fix anything.  And has said on a few occations in the last 3 months that I should not be surprised if she found someone else to make her happy.  In which I made it clear that she had an intention of cheating on me.  She would only answer she was not happy and would find someone who would.  She told me also I am free to have sex with who ever I wanted.  I will say on this topic, I have ZERO interest in sleeping with anyone else.  I had been cheated on multiple times with my ex wife (who was my first girlfriend in high school) and my current wife had also been cheated on.  And both of us talked about this when we first met, and both said we knew how it felt and would never go there.  I tell her this, but she doesn't respond.  It seems she has not gone there yet, I have asked her.  Also I have broached this topic at different times with her, and a few times she has been adimate she never said she would cheat on me.  However over the weekend she reiterated that she may find someone else.  She seems to go through these modes of I hate you, I am finding someone else.  To cruise control.  To I never said that.  And back around again.

I was internally sad and angry late last week as well, when she got a package in the mail.  She opened it, it was a book.  And I could tell she was hiding it and went to put it on the shelf.  I asked what she got (in a nice interested type of way).  She said nothing it is for me not you.  After she went to bed I took a look.  It was a book on how to deal with controlling angry abusive men.  She has said to me many times in anger that I am controlling and mentally abusive.  So I look at this book, and I immediatly sad.  I know the situation I am in.  I feel there is a large issue that I cannot seem to broach with her.  And she feels I am these things.  Ok, I am the type of person who can absolutly look at this from her side.  Ok, so what do I do.  Take the position that this is how she sees me, and make efforts to fix myself or show her that is not how I am.  But this is the position I have taken for 6 years.  And as I say, it is not helping.

On the other hand, if I bring up anything that I would like her to work on, it is instantly huge fight material.  And not productive.  And I will tell you, I hardly ever bring up issues.  I feel my wife is who she is, and am happy for her as she is.  Except for her anger and attitude towards me.  When I do have an issue, they are usually large.  And I know it would be a touchy subject.  So I go in with softness and care.  These have been her major use of the internet (so much that it is in her face almost always) Major spending in certain areas.  For instance we have about $3k tied up in 4 strollers.  I have told her after the second that we need to get rid of some.  I think one is good, but will compromise at two.  She just says, I will talk to you about it after you fix your issues.  She is into baby wrapping, and when she got into it, I said 5 seems reasonable, but I will compromise at 10.  She is in the 20's.  Each is anywhere from $100-$600.  Also the babies closets are overflowing with clothes.  And they have as large a closet as I do.  Each!  However with all these things, she is thrifty and buys low, takes good care of the items, and sells high.  But it takes all her time.  And I have said very nicely, hey, right now you are using 60% of your time doing these things.  Just make it 40% and I will be happy.  Again, flies off the handle and has arguments that she is making money, and it is for the kids.  But I don't feel the kids need 50 outfits they never wear that you sell a year later that you spent time purchasing and finding room for and selling for $10 more.

Sorry on that topic, it may not really be BPD type activity.  More husband/wife issues.

Also just something that flows from my head.  I have not told her, but I feel if she gets super angry each time I broach a topic on her personal behavior she is manipulating the situation for me to be less inclined to do so in the future.  Which I do feel is the case.  I am always hesitant to ask her to do something a little different.

Also to answer your question on the stress levels.  Actually they are not as high as you would think.  Yes it is hard, but our newborn sleeps.  Our 2 year old had not for the first year and half.  I 100% know she has high stress levels, but she will not admit to them.  She has a back injury that causes pain, she gets migraines, we have a large court battle on the teenager going on, and the babies.  But the babies are the least of it.  She feels the migraines and back suck, but don't stress her out.  But both coucellors we have had say that is not the case, and I can see it myself.  But she does not believe me that she treats me different.

Sorry for the long winded one, I don't feel I am presenting myself that well in my needs.  But am just typing. 

Here is one I would like help on.  Over the weekend we had a good incident that I can relate.  I understand this is from my perspective only.  A month ago we got court summons to change our time with our teenager from one long weekend a month, with a month in the summer and a week at xmas.  To 2 weeks in the summer and one at xmas, and that is all.  To give a super quick history on this.  She had the teenager from birth to 7 years old.  And did a fantastic job.  The father sued for custody 4 times in those years.  And got custody the last time.  Mostly because we found out after the decision that my wifes mother sided against us to hurt my wife.  However, to me she says it was all my fault for a few things I said or did in the evaluation and court.  No one I talk to believes that.  Ok so to the point.  When we got the summons we called texted and emailed our daughter to ask her what she wants to do.  She has had zero responses.  So our last one was that she can talk to us when she likes.  Then she texted me only wishing me a happy birthday.  My wife jumped on that and told me to text her back to call us.  I told her I didn't want to respond that quickly to her on a separate topic.  So I wanted to give it a few hours.  She was upset with me, but I felt it right.  Well, dumb me, I forgot to.  The next day my wife asked if I heard from daughter.  I said crap I forgot sorry.  She got angry at me.  So I texted her a few minutes later.  I said verbatum, Hey (name), Please call your mom.  She would love to talk with you.  A few hours later she asked if I texted I said yes.  And told her I got nothing from daughter.  She asked to see my phone and got super angry and said see this is why we are losing custody.  This text shows we are not united and is not what I told you to say.  You are unreliable and destroying the court stuff.  The father is using you.  Ok so that happened, a few weeks ago.  Over the weekend we got an email (which we never get) from the father.  He said the daughter was sad that we did not contact her on her birthday late last week.  We should call her.  My wife does not read emails, so I called her and told her.  She said, ok so.  This is manipulation on the father to hurt us somehow in court.  We have a boundry with the daughter that she is going to contact us.  I told her think of yourself in that situation, what would you want.  She the daughter would reach out if that is how she felt.  They have a secret email that she is also not responding to (I did not know previously).  So this is just manipulation.  And I could not disagree more, and was calm and tried to prove my point.  She said I was being manipulated by the father and that I am not to be involved with the daughter and situation ever again since I screw it up always.  That I don't support her and her decisions.  I tell her that I am allowed to disagree and will do so calmly.  And will always be on the side of right.  Am I crazy?  Did I do something wrong?   This is a typical type of fighting for us.  We have an issue, she tells me what she wants to do, and if different, I will suggest other ideas.  Usually it turns into a fight with no resolution to how we handle the issue.  During the fight I feel I am happy to compromise and do what she says.  But just want to be heard.  She then blames all the fighting on me, and says I manipulate her.  She also says she thinks I am a gaslighter.

I would also say, it does seem a time in our lives where issues arise.  But these issues are a copy/paste of issues we had before we had the kids.  Really I feel we were in the honeymoon phase until we had our daughter custody taken away.  I felt that was the issue, but I think that just dumped us from honeymoon phase to whatever phase is next.  And we are still there.

Anyways.  Anything support would help.

To: pearlsw.  Thanks for your words.  I also feel that same about your reconciled situation.  I feel the last 3/4 of the weekend we made some good headway.  But feel as you do.  If I forget something to do today, or do something wrong she will shift to hating my guts.  Last week I moved the hose and didn't put it back (which there was a reason).  I got the hateful person for a few days after.  I wish you the best!  Thanks again.

[Lollypop]

Hi

I'm so terribly sorry you're having to go through all of this right now. I can see that the custody battle must be very stressful for you all.

He said the daughter was sad that we did not contact her on her birthday late last week.  We should call her.  My wife does not read emails, so I called her and told her.  She said, ok so.  This is manipulation on the father to hurt us somehow in court.  We have a boundry with the daughter that she is going to contact us.  I told her think of yourself in that situation, what would you want.  She the daughter would reach out if that is how she felt. 

Did I read this right?  Sorry I may be a little confused as you mentioned your birthday.  Was it your step-daughter's birthday last week? 

Your step-daughter has been through quite a traumatic time with the custody battle. 14 year olds can seem quite grown up but actually they are still very young emotionally.  Receiving a "Happy Birthday, I love and miss you" is very important. If she didn't get that, then she will be feeling very sad about it. 

I can see with all of this going on it must be difficult to understand what's the best way of approaching things.

I'd like to suggest that a way of communicating with your step-daughter might be a good place to start. If email is proving to be unreliable, texting difficult then maybe just calling her on a regular basis is a way forward for both you and your wife, and of course your step daughter.  Would this be allowed?  When are you due for your step-daughter to visit to over the summer?

It must have been a real shock to see that your wife has bought a book about "controlling angry abusive men".  I can see that emotions are running very high within your household and it can sometimes be quite confusing about what is a symptom or a cause. You must be feeling hurt and I would be too. If you are honest with yourself, do you think there's any chance from her perspective that some of the way she's feeling is justified?

I think a period of some calm is needed just to bring down the temperature in the house. You clearly love your family and want what is best for them all. Relationships are never easy, even in the best marriages there are problems. Getting back to basics, mutually respecting each others feelings and space is a good place to start.

LP

[Arlip]

Sorry for the confusion.  My birthday was a few weeks ago, and hers was last week.

I agree with your statements of daughters emotions, as well as communication with her.  But my wife feels we have done all we should and it is up to our daughter to reach out to us.  I don't agree because as you say, she is still young emotionally.  And we have tried all ways of communication.  Text, phone, email.  With no response.  Except from her father, as mentioned earlier.  The basic disagreement from me and my wife is that I think we should never give up trying to communicate with her.  Not such that it is daily.  My wife's position is we have hit dead ends for the last 3 weeks, and it is up to her now.  And I disagree 100% in my heart.  However this does not mean I will communicate with my daughter if my wife disagrees.  It just means I want to be able to talk about it with my wife, with respect.  And decide together.  She gets angry and attacks me when I say my side.

I believe I am super honest with myself.  I also know that she feels very justified.  But when any info comes out from her that gives me some clarity, there seems to be some very flawed statements.  Like, you did this thing to me because you want to hurt me.  Or you do that to manipulate me.  Lately since she is on the gaslighting kick, she has been saying that I mis-state the truth that I know to be true so that I can make her feel that she is losing her mind.  She says she knows the truth, and I am a lier.

One instance is that our counselor told us to keep a journal with each other.  On discussing topics and resolutions.  We did that a few times.  There was one that came up a few weeks ago.  I did something, and she was pissed that I did it.  I told her that is what we agreed to.  She said I was a lier.  So I remembered we wrote it down.  So I pulled out the book and showed her, and read out loud.  She looked at it and said, you are manipulating me in some way.  This is your handwriting not mine, I never agreed to this.  And it was 100% a time we sat down together on the couch and we wrote a bunch of stuff, crossed a bunch out together, and put stars next to things we both agreed to.  Yes I did write it, with her there on the couch together.  She didn't remember, and said that was not the truth.  I think that weekend she asked me to leave our bedroom, which I am still living in another now.

I have a bunch more that are similar.  Also when speaking with the brother in law he stated his mother was the same.  (and there was high mental abuse in that family, in which zero of the three kids talk to their mother anymore).  He said that last time he spoke with her was an instance after a military run.  He always was unsure if he had problems, or his mother.  He got back.  They had an argument where he was calm (because of military training).  She slapped him.  After a few minutes later he said you slapped me.  She said she did not and never would do that.  And he said she totally believed it.

He also said that growing up, his father seemed to get this type of treatment.  But his mother treated all friends family and neighbors fine.  Then the father left.  And my wife (being the oldest) got this treatment.  She tried to get help from family and friends to no avail.  So my wife at 13 ran away from home, and was in foster care until 15 when she was emancipated.  When my wife left her mother, my brother in law said he then got this treatment until he left for military at 17.  And the youngest sister will tell you she also was turned on once the brother left during her high school years.

This story scares me for a few reasons.  My wife never went into this detail with me.  Even though I am respectful to let her tell it and not pry.  As well as being gentle and asking her from time to time about that time period.  I knew she was emancipated.  But never knew why, expect "my mom is a ___".

The other reason I feel scared on this.  My wife is really truly, a #1 mother to my kids.  I never felt she would be otherwise.  But this story makes me question it.  I don't feel my wife has any reflection capabilities on herself.  She has not once ever apologized for anything she has said or done.  I am always the one who does that, even if I don't feel I was the one who was at fault.

Thanks for the help.  We are still is a positive space over the last 4 days.  And I am being more proactive since reading some things on this website.  Like taking a caretakers approach to our relationship.  Instead of adjusting myself and keeping the focus on my behaviors.  But instead bringing topics to the table like, lets read this book together.  Or setting up a date night (in the case I did last week, she called it off because she was too tired, perhaps a tad upset at something as well, but the gesture still made a positive impression I think).  And last night I told her I would take the kids so she could spend 30 min in the pool that was just setup.  She was happy for that gesture as well.  However, it was still 55 degrees and too cold, so she took a rain check.

Thanks again.