Divorced? Please tell me how you decided or how yours started

[Radcliff]

Hello,

I've been married for 23 years, with three teenage daughters.  I've been working at the marriage the whole time, actively using BPD techniques for a few years.  My wife has been threatening divorce for 23 years, and I am nearing the end of my will to carry on in the marriage.  I've been determined lately to improve things, but don't have any progress to show for it.

A marriage to someone who has a wonderful side, and an intact family, is not something I would give up lightly.  I need help, and understand that nobody can make the decision for me -- so I thought I might be able to learn from your experiences.  If you made the decision to leave, what did you weigh, and what put things past the decision point for you?  How did you decide?  If your spouse initiated, how did it unfold?  If you had older kids, it would be especially helpful to hear from you, but I'd be grateful to hear the story/thoughts of anyone who has been there.

[I wasn't sure whether to post here or on "Healing from the Wounds."  I decided to try here first.]

Thank you!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ForeverDad]

One would have to comment that if she hadn't significantly improved in 23 years, then she never will.  Yes, it is theoretically possible that focused therapy could work given enough effort (on her part) and enough time, but after all these years that's quite unlikely.  I'm assuming she has refused therapy or counseling, whether herself only or jointly.

I had one child and that sabotaged my marriage.  We had been married over a decade but she had gradually displayed more and more issues.  I had (foolishly) hoped having a child would help her to soak in the joys and discoveries of an innocent child.  Instead she relived her childhood abuse and those fears through him.  Belatedly I learned that having a child does not fix serious issues, instead it makes unwinding a dysfunctional marriage vastly more complicated.

It got to the point that once she had driven away our friends and family, there was no one left to blame but me and she started looking at me sideways.  She especially got upset when I didn't do things fast enough for her, that was a trigger for her.  In fact, she started comparing me to her abuser stepfather, saying he was better than me.  I could discern (1) I could no longer reason with her and (2) it was clear I was the next to be driven away.  I could see her trying to frame allegations in her mind against me to protect 'her' child, something that happened as soon as we separated.  That's when I accepted I had no choice but to protect myself and get some distance.  That meant divorce since she was setting herself up as The Authority in charge of our son.  Divorce at least would pull in the court and that legal framework would become The Real Authority, however reluctant and slow.  At least court would be a little less 'unfair' than my spouse.

Everyone's experience is a little different, but the overall pattern is common.  Only when you're able to enforce effective boundaries does life get better.  Typically you have an almost impossible task unless you have support... .family & trusted friends... .experienced strategy-oriented and proactive lawyer... .family court stepping in to set basic rules... .peer support such as here.

[Panda39]

My SO got to the end over time, he was married 17 years. 

At some point he couldn't normalize the abnormal anymore. 

His dad died and he promised his dad he would be happy (His dad was on to my SO's uBPDxw). 

His mom told him she didn't know who he was anymore. 

He reconnected via email with a woman from his past that reminded him that he was an attractive, charming, lovable man. 

His ex repeatedly emotionally hurt his children. 

His ex threatened divorce one too many times... .and he took her up on it.

Panda39

[Radcliff]

Hello ForeverDad and Panda39,

Thanks very much for your stories.  I appreciate it.  There certainly are no easy answers.  ForeverDad, congratulations on getting to where you've gotten.  I have a college buddy who was in a similar situation and worked for years to get an appropriate amount of time.  He has now "arrived" and is enjoying life with his kids.  Through him I have a sense of how hard the struggle can be, and how good it can be if it works out well in the end.  Panda39, thanks for your story.  Threats of divorce are a regular thing, and I think someday she may threaten once too often, though if we can work it out, that would be the best option (though yes, ForeverDad, I'm reminding myself to be realistic in my hopes for change).

I'll hope to hear from more members, as every story is different, and I learn from each one.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Radcliff,

My BPDxW and I separated after 13 years of marriage, w/2 kids ages 10 & 11.  I took my marriage vows seriously and never contemplated divorce, yet also had no idea of the toll that BPD would take on me.  I reached a point where I had nothing left in the tank, so-to-speak, after exhausting myself emotionally, physically and financially in my marriage.  I became a shadow of my former self.

Some warning signs: My T asked me if I thought I had tried everything to save my marriage?  Yes, I said.  She said, "I think so, too."  It was a lightbulb moment  because she normally never shared her personal opinions w/me.

Another warning sign: Two close friends and a family member conducted an intervention on me, urging me to leave my Ex and pledging their help if I made the break.  It was another lightbulb moment  because at that point I feared that I would become completely isolated if I lost their support and friendship.  They probably saved my life, because I was headed down a self-destructive path, yet lacked the strength to leave on my own, after being abused and beaten down for years by my BPDxW.

A month or so later, my Ex asked me to leave the house after another argument.  I packed a bag and went to stay with a friend.  It was quite sudden and unplanned.  Once I got out from under the BPD dark cloud, though, I never seriously considered going back, though devastated to be apart from my kids.  I was so relieved to be free from the drama and abuse.  It was like getting out of jail.  I enjoyed returning home from work without the expectation of a confrontation.

Those are some of the factors that led to my divorce.

I am happy to share more, if you might find it helpful.

Thanks to all,
LuckyJim

[Panda39]

Some warning signs: My T asked me if I thought I had tried everything to save my marriage?  Yes, I said.  She said, "I think so, too."  It was a lightbulb moment  because she normally never shared her personal opinions w/me.

Something from another thread that resonated with me essentially what Lucky Jim said... .

There's a difference between giving up and saying enough is enough

I think that all of us who leave our marriages (BPD or not) just come to the place where we know we've tried everything we can and decide it's time to stop banging our head against the wall and leave the relationship.

Panda39

[takingandsending]

Hello, Radcliff.

I really appreciate and understand where you are coming from. I was married for 17 years with 2 kids, age 11 and 6. I had a hard time reconciling leaving a somewhat functioning marriage with the lack of happiness, love and self respect that had my resources drained to near zero. But, like ForeverDad, my children were the driving force behind my choice. My T explained to me that my children could receive the emotional coaching and resilience necessary to grow into healthy adults if they had a healthy attachment with even 1 parent, but not if that parent remained in an environment of frequent abuse. Simply put, as much as I wanted to be a positive example of how to be loving and kind in the most extreme of circumstances, it would only teach conflicted messages to my children (which was surely my experience as a child growing up with caretaker dad and BPDish mom). 

That made the choice more immediate and easier to risk replacing a safe unhappiness/unhealthiness with an unknown future. What confirmed this budding thought process for me was when my then wife left for 12 days on a trip to Hawaii, and I experienced so much freedom in the daily interactions with my sons.  I could no longer deny just how much resources I was spending on the day to day drama/crisis management with my wife ... .resources that my children would never see or enjoy or benefit from. That made the choice to move out, to move on a possibility instead of the crippling fear of losing the security of what I knew was not serving me or my children.

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

I am grateful for the support of such a veteran crew.  Thank you.  Many of the things you say resonate with me.  My wife has been traveling this week, and for most of the week it's just been me and D16, and D12 just rejoined us from camp.  In the last week, I've had some wonderful time with both of them, hitting a rhythm that fits each of them, and starting to feel like more of a competent father who's close to his daughters.  When my wife is here, she drowns me out, and declares my incompetence for my children to hear.  On the flip side, my wife suggested that I switch my work from home day to today to spend it with D12 for the eclipse -- it was a wonderful gift of time with my daughter, and in many ways my wife helps me with my relationships like that.  My Dr. Jekyl is amazing, and not in an infatuated newbie way -- counting dating I've been with her for 29 years -- but deep in her character.  But Mrs. Hyde is as bad as Jekyll is good, and my wife takes utterly no responsibility for her half of the relationship (how an intelligent woman could claim that one person bears all the responsibility still baffles my mind).  She read bits of "The High Conflict Couple" at my request (it totally describes us), but she thought it was a waste of time.

Though I know the story is so typical, I'm exhausted and perplexed by the repetitive and illogical nature of it.  She wants a divorce on 1-2 week cycles, and just when I'm thinking this is the real deal, I come home to a nice dinner she has made with me, without a word of the rant she had been on.  She says she wants a divorce and wants me to move out, then talks about her scorched earth strategy and how I'll pay and suffer.  If she really wanted me out, she'd go to a mediator with me, and talk about coparenting and an equal split of time.  With the threats, of course, I'm journaling like crazy and won't leave the house.  The screwy thing is that she's so dysfunctional that she is acting counter to her own interests.  BPD is a huge factor in making us miserable in the marriage, but a huge factor in a potential divorce.  If we divorce, it will seal forever her narrative of being the victim, and I'm sad and worried about how coparenting would go.  The irony is that if she could get a handle on BPD, she'd be a fantastic ex/coparent (but then again, she'd be a fantastic wife/parent).  I've read "Splitting" and have a divorce lawyer I work well with, so I'm not overly intimidated by the divorce storm -- I've got my eye on where things settle out in the long haul, which I think is the right thing.  But in the long haul, as co-parents, I want the same thing I can't have now, mutual respect and an appropriate amount of collaboration around the kids.  And I really don't know if I can have that.  I don't want milestones like my daughter's marriages and graduations to be marred by them having to worry about their divorced parents.  Let me know if you think I need to get recalibrated!

I'm not in a hurry, D16 is a senior in high school, and I want to keep the ship stable at least until she's done with college applications around December/January.  But I'm not getting any younger, and don't want to live the rest of my life like this.  So I'll keep at it.  I wonder if there is any way to get her to take some responsibility, though it may seem naive to say it at this point.

If anyone else out there has stories, I'd be indebted to hear them.  I learn from each one.

[ForeverDad]

There is no 'perfect' time to end a troubled marriage.  Possibly the spouse senses an imminent change and does something to sabotage the plans and make you look like the worse person.  Possibly we let the cat out of the bag thinking sharing the upcoming change will trigger a positive reaction.  If a marriage is functional or improving then yes we share information but if it is imploding or a continuous roller coaster then we need to be especially cautious about sharing information lest be we sabotaged.

I'm not saying you can't wait until the college applications are over, but I'd bet you have a long history of "I'll wait until... ."  Over and over.  Right?

What is the example your children ought to see in you?  Strong boundaries?  Managing a calm and stable home?  Living a life that helps them to see what they should seek in a future relationship, a future spouse of their own?  Someone like Mom?  Someone like Dad (now)?  Or someone like Dad who has established his own stable home that doesn't have flying monkeys popping up out of nowhere?

We can't tell you what to do, but what we can do is share our experiences and often that means setting boundaries and solutions sooner rather than later.

But we also advocate preparing in advance.  What have you done to protect yourself should a hurricane of wrath, opposition and sabotage be hurled your way?  If you do start separating, what hurdles will be thrown in your path?  (In my case it was allegations of child abuse.  I didn't face DV allegations in the early years of divorce, I think, because our separation had started with her facing Threat of DV charges.)

Have you [b[]confidentially[/b] sought some legal consultations with family law attorneys?  To avoid your spouse finding out don't pay with credit cards or checks.  Use a mailing address or email address that she can't access.  And especially don't "confess" confidential or private matters when she is interrogating or guilting you.  That last one is so hard to avoid.

No one can predict whether your passage through a divorce would be horrendous to experience, or merely difficult.  But be prepared as best you can.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  Keep close to your real supporters.  Listen to your experienced, proactive, problem-solving attorney.  Bounce issues and ideas here in peer support.  We've been there, done that.  We have an immense accumulation of collective wisdom, what usually works and what usually doesn't work.

[pearlsw]

Hey Radcliff, I am always impressed with how thoughtful and fair you are. I know how hard it is when your "partner" is on this week/week and a half cycle. I feel I have been skating on thin ice lately because I've made it a little longer past a "break up" threat than usual. Of course, I did get a big heap of insults on Sunday, but I should have presented the issue I had with him better than I did in the first place. He could not stay on the issue at hand and decided to get off topic and throw the whole kitchen sink at me, but I could have headed this off a bit if I had waited til I was more calm to bring up my issue and really thought through what solution I wanted instead of just expressing my disappointment in him. Once he saw that I understood what he had done and I just wanted to express my feelings not criticize him we got back on track.

My patience was at a low point and I started to JADE a bit, so that didn't go too well. I managed to pull out of the cycle and just apologize quickly and get us back on the same team. I am still shocked at how the argument didn't get even worse.

Anyway, I wonder if there is more you could be doing in the white phases to change the overall dynamic? I try to be careful with shame because he is hyper sensitive, but I have managed to get him to recognize that this amount of breakups is "not normal" and had devastating consequences for us over the years. But I must be careful, because at some point it is more than he can hear, but I have to have some reality so I can't always help myself. With time I want to set aside bringing up the past less and less, but for now I need it sometimes.

Luckily for me, I guess, he does recognize he is imbalanced and has acted crazy, and he recognizes he does not quite know why that is the case. He has a brother with schizophrenia so he is afraid to admit to mental illness in a certain sense, but he also simply can't deny it. I have managed to set the narrative a bit by simply pointing out that whether he recognizes it or not I know that something is off and this BPD stuff is the only valid explanation I have found for it. I wonder if there is a way to get your wife to simply recognize that breaking up or threatening to break up so often is simply not "normal". It just isn't. With time I think my guy has actually found some relief in knowing there is a reason for this, even if he will at times pull away from this. I have told him that I am very clear on this and whether he can ever admit it or not I believe that is the case and I am acting based on it. He is a difficult person to be with at times, but I still love him (somehow) and am trying my best to make this work, but I am able to do that because I see it as an illness instead of that he is a total jerk.

This is probably all totally "wrong", but due to my isolation, and struggles, I simply had to insist on my relationship with reality whether or not he can maintain a consistent relationship with reality. But I am also trying to focus more loudly on my struggles with this lately instead of only on his stuff. I've been talking about how I am feeling, when I can, and just letting the chips fall where they do. I do not want to be a silent, long-suffering caretaker. But I try to be careful to let him feel that we are both on the same side, and I set the illness outside of us a bit. I do this to keep us connected and help him feel less blamed or like he is a "bad" person though his behaviors are too much at times.

I think one thing that has helped me in the last months is to just assume we are in a permanent relationship although he plays the break up card a lot. I know how hard it is to do that, believe me. But for my own mental health I have to hold onto the idea that this is permanent and not indulge my dreams of a life past this. It clears my head a bit of the worries and fears that would otherwise torment me and ultimately destroy me. Maybe we will break up at some point, and I get wanting to be ready for that, especially when you have kids, but I found personally that living in two split worlds based on his words was just not possible for me any longer. I have one life and I will live in one world based upon reality. And I will find my happiness now in the present no matter how small it is.

In the "good" department is that when we argued a bit on Sunday when I apologized and modeled a quick end to the argument and a path out of it he jumped on board right away. When he saw good behavior modeled he followed that back and stayed stable. He has been very attached to me lately and he was quick to get me back up on the pedestal. I don't really like to be on a pedestal, but I'll take it compared to the black phase.

I wonder if, while she was in a white phase, you could get her to see how messed up it is to think she is always right and has no responsibility. I also wonder if praising her nice behavior could help? When she makes these nice dinners for example I wonder if you praising her a bit above and beyond could help her to be more attracted to such things and get a stronger sense that you still enjoy the nice parts of the marriage. By expressing gratitude and appreciation very verbally perhaps you can show that there really is a good side to the marriage and help get her to see that. In my situation, because in the white phases he praises me so much I can use this a bit to get him to see how ineffective it is to threaten breakups so much. I think he will always do some amount of threatening, but I have helped him cut down a bit, or at least give me the recognition that this is not an appropriate thing to say if he really does not want that. He has even come to recognize that he does it because he is trying to push me away before I can "hurt him".

I wonder if when she is in the white phase you can simply discuss with her the idea of saving/improving the marriage. I'd just put it out there and say that look, marriages are hard, and we all have a hard time with the ups and downs of this stuff, but I am much more interested in it working out than in it breaking up. Period. I want to work on making it work. Are you up for this too? And then just point out if you are up for making it work too let's take the threats off the table. She will never really give up this tool, in all likelihood, but perhaps if you can get the person she is in the white phase to admit she wants to be with you you can reframe this or help her create this persona who acts on the wanting to make it work part. If you cut back all the crap, what part of the marriage does she value and what part of it does she have honest complaints/desires for improvement over? Does she want more time together? Does she want more communication? What are her real issues if you can pull away the layer of junk clouding it all?

My guy, at his core, is insecure so I thank him, praise him, show gratitude. This helps me too because then I get to reinforce my good views of him and keep a better attitude towards him. It is like focusing on the flowers in a field of weeds.

[pearlsw]

Hey Radcliff, Sorry if I focused on saving/improving when you are at another stage with all this! I have seen so many messages from you and I was not sure which board we were on! I usually hang out on saving and improving and I have seen you there too, but maybe this space is for exploring other options.

I don't blame you for not wanting to "live your life like this." I have that inner debate at times too. Having partners with this illness puts us all very near our limits/breaking points. I have had past relationships that were drama free so I am certainly aware it does not have to be like this. I think if I ever did get involved again I could make a much more informed, cautious choice, but still... .here I am. But I can see that 20 some years with anyone, even someone without BPD, would be a lot for me. I almost wonder if 8-10 years is just my maximum and I am not someone who really wants/can(?) do the longer haul though I still idealize that. Lots of relationships only last the length of the time the kids are in the house, and then it is time to move on, and that is okay too. I think you have some hope and options left and there is some reason to keep at it, but you let me know if I am misreading, okay?

[byfaith]

Hi Radcliff,

I came to a point where I realized that I just could not live this way any longer. I also "knew" that she would not change her patterns. I battled with divorce because of my faith. I have peace with the path that I have chosen. The path has not been easy. I knew it would not be easy. You will know when. I had a turning point.

In March of this year there was an issue that came up and as usual I was "to blame" for all of it. Not to go into the reason she said it (sometimes it is difficult to remember what triggered every event) I was told I needed the hell beat out of me and that is what I deserved. I was told that if she told several of the people she knew the crap I was pulling that they would want to beat the hell out of me also.

All of the trying, all of the attempts at better communication, all of the "I will do this or that" to show her how much I love her. I just had enough. The night she threatened me, as she had her finger jammed in my bottom lip and up in my face, I left the house for a week. The week I began my emotional detachment.

I knew prior to that pivotal moment that at some point I would decide to call it quits if things stayed the same. My wife had filed for divorce at the end of Jan 2017. I did not realize she had. I was never served. I went to a lawyer early April and he pulled up divorce filings at the courthouse and found out she had filed a divorce complaint against me. Instead of me filing I just told her one Saturday, April 8 to be exact to just proceed, have me served. She was going to let the filing expire, my lawyer accepted service and the divorce is still going on.

My life feels weird right now. I know it will get better though. It is pretty much like I thought it was going to be once I decided to do it. I still do the "what ifs" in my mind. I have to work through all of that. I am trying to understand myself.

I hope you find your path.

BF

[Lucky Jim]

I came to a point where I realized that I just could not live this way any longer. I also "knew" that she would not change her patterns. I battled with divorce because of my faith. I have peace with the path that I have chosen. The path has not been easy. I knew it would not be easy. You will know when. I had a turning point.

Well said, byfaith.  I reached a breaking point, too, where I was unable to go on.  Agree, one knows when the time comes to leave.  No, it's not an easy path and it was rough sledding for a while there and still is, to a lesser extent.  Nevertheless, I don't mind the challenges because they are my challenges and my choices, unlike life with a pwBPD, if that makes sense.  I still have emotional scars from the abuse, yet I'm a lot happier than I was when I walked through the BPD mine field.  Plus, I'm in a new r/s with a kind and caring woman, who treats me well.  What a concept!

LuckyJim

[livednlearned]

Hi Radcliff,

It sounds like your wife uses divorce threats as a way to feel in control, of herself, of you.

What happens when she says this?

How would she respond if you said ok, let's divorce?

What kind of relationship do you have with the kids? How do they get along with mom? Are they showing signs of stress from having a BPD mom?

The Staying/Improving skills can be applied to the kids in the event of divorce. Whether you stay or go, it's great that you have put effort into this -- they will benefit  

You can also find some similar feedback about the stay or go dilemma here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239547.msg1331843#msg1331843