I would caution against spending too much time evaluating what our part was within the relationship

[Depression = 72% of members]

Thanks for sharing the article, Harley!

This is likely going to be controversial, but I'm going to share anyway.  I would caution against spending too much time evaluating what our part was WITHIN the relationship.  With someone who is full blown PD, there is truly nothing that can be done within the relationship to make it work if the pwBPD is not actively seeking recovery - going to therapy, doing the hard work, really putting in the effort.  Let me restate, there is nothing a non can do to make a pwBPD not have BPD and thus be able to have a fruitful, loving relationship.

My own T spent a lot of time with me on this.  There was nothing in the relationship that I could have done to have made it a healthy, functioning relationship.  I examined, re-examined, and re-re-examined my role, the to point of exhaustion.  pwBPD, and for better or worse here I'm going to stick with those with an official Dx, can not carry on a healthy, functioning relationship.  Therapy instead has focused on recognizing early  :
- the other person opening up and sharing way too early ( - lack of boundaries)
- feeling like you're being studied ( - particularly if you have a history with BPD or NPD individuals because it's setting you up for grooming)
- being physically intimate way too early ( - lack of boundaries, and particularly risky because anxious attachment styles get that oxytocin bonding chemicals going and attach too soon)
- wanting to spend all free time with you ( - do they not have their own friends or hobbies they are engaged in)
- sharing repeated stories of how their exes mistreated them ( - why did this person stay in relationships where they were mistreated)
- telling you they come from an alcoholic or abusive home ( - unless they have done a tremendous amount of work to recover from this, you are going to find a den of dysfunction, and    if they tell you this really early on).  
The purpose of recognizing the is to exit the relationship rather than pursuing further.  

We also then did some work about how to calm the attachment system so you can exit the relationship.  That looks like extreme self-care and soothing - favorite music, favorite sensory items (mine is a velvet comforter and leather sandalwood candles), favorite foods, exercise, relaxation through massages, warm baths, and mindfulness and deep 4-4-4 (4 in - 4 hold - 4 out) breathing.

The reason I raise this is I was sharing in T that we had done the Gottman workshop and tried to rebuild our connection.  My T stopped me there and said, look, regular relationship advice - to look at our role in the demise of the relationship or how to improve it, which is healthy and self-reflective behavior - does not work when someone is deeply disordered.  You're dealing with an entirely different animal.  There is nothing you could have done to make it work with someone who is deeply disordered.  It's akin to victim blaming.  The only other route, if you had wanted to stay, would have been to accept the chaos, the abuse, and try to keep yourself social, engaging with others, active with your own hobbies and interests, but it would have been a monumental climb and you would have received absolutely no reciprocity.  It would have been empty for you, so you'd have to look at why you would want to do that.  She went on to share that the "reciprocity" pieces I had seen before, when you look at the broader patterns, were not in proportion and were directly following an event where my exBPD felt he was going to be rejected / abandoned and was looking to re-secure me as his source of safety.  The more we looked through the patterns, the clearer that was.  

That isn't to say we might not have some bad behaviors of our own to look at, especially co-dependence.  Why would someone stay knowing it would be empty?  For me, I had my own obligation to God through my marriage, and I had known the pwBPD for 20 years but at a distance where he was able to use apparent competence for the 3-4 days I would see him at a time.  He also planted some messages with me when we were teenagers that he was able to play on during the 15 year friendship leading up to the marriage.  It's what allowed him to sneak through.  But spending time evaluating if we had just validated more, or approached more calmly... .that is saying that with predictable stimulus, we could get a predictable result in the interaction with the pwBPD.  That's just not possible with a full blown PD.  I go back to the I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it.  I can only look at why I got into that relationship in the first place and know what are signs to exit relationships in the future.  The rest - the middle - is the territory that none of us should get into with an unrecovered PD and spending time thinking through what our role was in the middle, except why we didn't leave, is really fruitless and worse victim blaming.

[HopinAndPrayin]

Thanks for sharing the article, Harley!

This is likely going to be controversial, but I'm going to share anyway.  I would caution against spending too much time evaluating what our part was WITHIN the relationship.  With someone who is full blown PD, there is truly nothing that can be done within the relationship to make it work if the pwBPD is not actively seeking recovery - going to therapy, doing the hard work, really putting in the effort.  Let me restate, there is nothing a non can do to make a pwBPD not have BPD and thus be able to have a fruitful, loving relationship.

My own T spent a lot of time with me on this.  There was nothing in the relationship that I could have done to have made it a healthy, functioning relationship.  I examined, re-examined, and re-re-examined my role, the to point of exhaustion.  pwBPD, and for better or worse here I'm going to stick with those with an official Dx, can not carry on a healthy, functioning relationship.  Therapy instead has focused on recognizing early  :
- the other person opening up and sharing way too early ( - lack of boundaries)
- feeling like you're being studied ( - particularly if you have a history with BPD or NPD individuals because it's setting you up for grooming)
- being physically intimate way too early ( - lack of boundaries, and particularly risky because anxious attachment styles get that oxytocin bonding chemicals going and attach too soon)
- wanting to spend all free time with you ( - do they not have their own friends or hobbies they are engaged in)
- sharing repeated stories of how their exes mistreated them ( - why did this person stay in relationships where they were mistreated)
- telling you they come from an alcoholic or abusive home ( - unless they have done a tremendous amount of work to recover from this, you are going to find a den of dysfunction, and    if they tell you this really early on).  
The purpose of recognizing the is to exit the relationship rather than pursuing further.  

We also then did some work about how to calm the attachment system so you can exit the relationship.  That looks like extreme self-care and soothing - favorite music, favorite sensory items (mine is a velvet comforter and leather sandalwood candles), favorite foods, exercise, relaxation through massages, warm baths, and mindfulness and deep 4-4-4 (4 in - 4 hold - 4 out) breathing.

The reason I raise this is I was sharing in T that we had done the Gottman workshop and tried to rebuild our connection.  My T stopped me there and said, look, regular relationship advice - to look at our role in the demise of the relationship or how to improve it, which is healthy and self-reflective behavior - does not work when someone is deeply disordered.  You're dealing with an entirely different animal.  There is nothing you could have done to make it work with someone who is deeply disordered.  It's akin to victim blaming.  The only other route, if you had wanted to stay, would have been to accept the chaos, the abuse, and try to keep yourself social, engaging with others, active with your own hobbies and interests, but it would have been a monumental climb and you would have received absolutely no reciprocity.  It would have been empty for you, so you'd have to look at why you would want to do that.  She went on to share that the "reciprocity" pieces I had seen before, when you look at the broader patterns, were not in proportion and were directly following an event where my exBPD felt he was going to be rejected / abandoned and was looking to re-secure me as his source of safety.  The more we looked through the patterns, the clearer that was.  

That isn't to say we might not have some bad behaviors of our own to look at, especially co-dependence.  Why would someone stay knowing it would be empty?  For me, I had my own obligation to God through my marriage, and I had known the pwBPD for 20 years but at a distance where he was able to use apparent competence for the 3-4 days I would see him at a time.  He also planted some messages with me when we were teenagers that he was able to play on during the 15 year friendship leading up to the marriage.  It's what allowed him to sneak through.  But spending time evaluating if we had just validated more, or approached more calmly... .that is saying that with predictable stimulus, we could get a predictable result in the interaction with the pwBPD.  That's just not possible with a full blown PD.  I go back to the I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it.  I can only look at why I got into that relationship in the first place and know what are signs to exit relationships in the future.  The rest - the middle - is the territory that none of us should get into with an unrecovered PD and spending time thinking through what our role was in the middle, except why we didn't leave, is really fruitless and worse victim blaming.

[roberto516]

Yup. When I went to my therapist last week I read a letter I had made up as if I would send it to her. Thanking her for the situation because of all that I had learned about myself. I read it to my therapist and she said it was "heavy with lots of insight." Naturally I then told her about my guilt and regret because, had I known this sooner, maybe it would have changed things. I then recalled the list of ways I was hurt in the relationship and I read that to her. My therapist said, "It's clear as day. She's a 'me me'. It's all about her. If you changed your communication to her or your patience or your introspection it would have still been you putting all the work in. She's spent her life being cared for by her parents and exe's and she knows she can find a new caretaker. She would have never had the incentive to have put you first since she would have been getting exactly what she wanted from you as a caretaker who never spoke up or asked anything from her. Her real chance to finally put something into the relationship was when your grandpop died and it's pretty clear that she couldn't do that on any sustainable time frame."

It was a clarity I needed. I don't even think about the what if's anymore because, like you, I have tried, tried, and tried but I always come back to the simple fact that "Nothing would have changed. She would have never held your emotions and feelings in high regard especially if it meant she would have to put her wants on the back burner for a short time."

[enlighten me]

I think theres a difference between seeing our part in it and seeing what we might have done differently.

Yes there are many things that I could have done differently but in the end I believe the outcome would have been the same but with me being even more mentally exhausted.

For me there where things that I definitely did wrong but there where also things I did right but for a pwBPD they where wrong. Its not about seeing my faults or how I might have been able to prolong the relationship. For me its about recognising that my behaviour caused hurt and not because it was wrong but because my exgf has a PD and there is no winning against that. It has helped me to detach and lifted a burden of guilt that I was carrying.

[findingmyselfagain]

HopinAndPrayin,

My struggle was probably a lot like detoxing from heroin or something that serious. My exfiance was likely BPD and I was a virgin and desperate for love due to my own childhood, health issues, etc. So it was like a fairy tale come true and I bought it hook, line and sinker, and more if that's possible. After it ended abruptly when she started detaching I *STRUGGLED* to figure out what happened and I've been in some level of a funk for the last seven years. I never imagined anything could be so much struggle.

Without going into a lot of detail, I made an effort to communicate again but *FINALLY* realized it would never matter how I was. She would always be difficult and abrasive... .occasionally opposite... .but never a true friendship. I knew I had to push myself away and into as many positive things as I could. To get close to friends again, to learn, and the struggle against what I used to be uncomfortable with (intimacy... .my own issue). It's only been the last few months that I believe I'm feeling like my true, core self... .who I would be if I faced my own inner demons and accepted myself for who I am. I feel more peace than I've felt since I can remember... .even though my wife is expecting any day now... .my job was just transitioned away a week after we closed on our condo. And it's been nuts. I feel like I'll be ok, and I'm not worried about it for the most part.

I'm wiser now. My marriage is going well. My wife is incredibly sweet and kind... .which we all deserve. I'd like to have those years back, but some people struggle and struggle and never know it. In a way, the relationship woke me up bigtime, and I should be glad for it, I suppose. Otherwise, who knows how much longer I would have struggled with myself?

Prayers of hope to all of us journeying through life... .!

[vanx]

i apprec your post. it's the what-ifs that really get me. accepting how we can inprove should be like you said to move towards healthier relationships. i know i will be more careful not to have sex so soon, even if things feel right, because i get way too attached! my ex was not in therapy, so i try to remind myself i may not have had different results if i had played things differently. well, i would probably have more self respect if i hadn't begged, but again the goal there isn't to win this relationship, but to be better to myself. thanks amd take care

[Skip]

My husband has really strong signs of being an undiagnosed quiet/waif BPD with substance abuse on top (alcohol).  He was actually diagnoses borderline/sociopath by the Army ~10 years ago.  

I might suggest that your views reasonably fit your experience. Dx BPD, Dx ASPD, Substance Abuse is a lot of dysfunction. There has to be a lot of stuff flying at you that had nothing to do with you.

With someone who is full blown PD, there is truly nothing that can be done within the relationship to make it work if the pwBPD is not actively seeking recovery - going to therapy, doing the hard work, really putting in the effort.  Let me restate, there is nothing a non can do to make a pwBPD not have BPD and thus be able to have a fruitful, loving relationship.

Just for clarity sake, the idea of looking at your contribution to a failed relationship is not to find the magic bullet that could have saved the relationship. Just like a postmortem on a dead body is not about bringing that body back to life. The reason to look at ourselves is to be able to check our baggage at the door in the next relationship... .or at least dispose of it in the first few months without blowing up our new partner.

10 years in a highly dysfunctional marriage will distort your view of healthy - even it you move 8,000 miles away and never see him again - and you run the risk of carrying it forward into the next relationship and poison it.

Read the cases here where members have gone forward only to struggle with some of the same problems in the next relationship - either picking another "problem child", being highly sensitive (paranoid) or easy to conflict, not able to exit when all the arrows point down.

Food for thought... .

Detaching. it's no longer about the last relationship, its about all our future days in relationships.

Of course, this is an advanced board, and this is an outlook we take latter in recovery. Its hard to embrace early in recovery - but its worthwhile knowing its out there for us.

[HopinAndPrayin]

Thanks, Skip.  I see you picked up an old post from before we got him officially diagnosed in 2015.  It's true and the ASPD and NPD kickers on BPD can be challenging, especially with dry drunk behaviors.

I think part of what I reflected on afterwards was I was trying healthy things - like honesty, connection, and a willingness to problem solve be openly and honestly looking at our selves, with someone who didn't have enough there there to connect with, so to speak.  I couldn't understand for the longest time why I couldn't get the connection I was expecting.  After the diagnosis it got better in the I wasn't as confused about the responses I was getting.  I even settled in on accepting it would be crap for a year or two while I waited for the DBT to kick in.  I just lost sight in the middle with the constant exposure to chaos and trauma that I was starting to become traumatized myself, even with my own hobbies, purposeful work, and friends.

To sum it up, my part was in selection criteria issues (not vetting him out thoroughly enough prior to committing, because I felt like I knew him from our 20 year friendship) and exit criteria (knowing when to cut losses and leave, which changed when it was clear he was sick but BPD has such a great rate of recovery - unbeknownst to me,  that rate plummets with additional comorbid PDs and substance abuse and it was a sacred marriage vow).  it was a learning experience.  My words of caution above are specifically related to focusing on the role within the relationship.

[takingandsending]

Thanks, H and P,
I like the red flag list - they all checked off in my RS with xw. She was, however, my second RS with a pwPD. My first committed RS was diagnosed schizotypal.

But, in that red flag list, I did the following myself:
- the other person opening up and sharing way too early ( - lack of boundaries)
- being physically intimate way too early ( - lack of boundaries, and particularly risky because anxious attachment styles get that oxytocin bonding chemicals going and attach too soon)

From which I gather, as I already learned through self-reflection, that I have poor/lack of boundaries. I better understand what healthy boundaries are supposed to be due to this website and T. What I still don't really understand is the underlying why I don't form clear, consistent boundaries. I am also learning, as others have stated, that I am afraid of opposite sex intimacy.

I don't hold myself to blame for why my marriage ended. I hold myself responsible for having entered into the RS with xw in the first place. I ignored red flags that I saw (over and over, to be honest). I have my own maladapted behaviors of how I seek validation of who I am. I am afraid that if I don't explore this, I may never experience a healthy, intimate relationship, and I am admitting that I would really like to experience one. And it scares me.

[vanx]

takingandsending,

I did those red flag actions myself and also learned I have poor boundaries. Just wanted to commend you on confronting these issues. I feel confident if you can do that, then you CAN find a healthy relationship. It's a scary place to be, but I think the challenges help teach you and when that special relationship does work out, it'll reall be something to appreciate!

[Harri]

Rather than looking at this as an issue of responsibility/blame, how about looking at it as interlocking wounds that brought 2 people together?  Granted, one person may have more issues, or more obvious issues than the other, but clearly both have issues that attracted you to each other.  Are your issues ones that need to be changed?  The only way to find out is to look within.  Everyone has had some kind of wound that results in an emotional need.  It is totally normal.  What is not normal is looking to someone else to fill that need.

We will never figure this out if we keep getting caught up in semantics, mistaking responsibility and self reflection for self blame and shame.

[takingandsending]

Yes, Harri, it was two (or twenty) interlocking wounds that brought me together with my xw and my previous serious RS partner. Shame to me is the fear of being seen as I am. And I have a hard time self reflecting because of that shame. There's an interdependence at work here.

The reason I fell for my xw was she let me express that shame (weak boundary red flag with sharing before intimacy/bond was developed) and didn't judge me for it - when you live in self judgment, that's a big thing, right? She built me up as being brave enough to be willing to work on it. Which was a nice pretense. But, I find, whatever she did or didn't do after the idealization phase, I have to accept responsibility that I still am afraid to be seen as I am because I never really did work on why I feel that shame.

[Harri]

Hi takingandsending, how are you today?

What you wrote about shame and how hard it is to show your true self in a relationship really resonates.  I understand.  I understand how good it feels to think you have finally found someone who understands and accepts the real vulnerable you... .only to have the rug pulled out from under you.  I did the same... .opened up too fast, too soon, let myself be pulled in during the idealization phase and did the same in return.  What a mess.  And so very hurtful.  And it is our responsibility to find out why we were so willing to share and be vulnerable so soon.  I know for me part of it was all the praise.  I loved seeing how I looked in his eyes (his idealized version of me) to think I might be acceptable to others... .so many factors played into that for me.

Shame is a hard thing to work through.  It has many tentacles that have woven themselves into every part of us.  It is the hardest thing I have ever worked on and I am not even close to being finished.

I think the steps you are taking here to share your vulnerabilities takes a lot of strength.  The wounds that attracted you to your ex (and me to my ex... .long time ago now) are still present and guaranteed to come into play in our next relationships if we do not look within to see what we brought to the table.

Sorry for the ramble.  I have read the threads where people get upset thinking about blame and responsibility in their romantic relationships.  I think I understand, but then I realize I do not.  As a child of a mentally disordered mother I can see how my role played out in the family relationship and I can take responsibility for that so I can change... .To me it seems obvious that if I have not healed those wounds (to the extent they can be healed) and got in a relationship with a healthy person, that I would be in the one down position and I would be the one with the behavioral problems in the relationship.  Sometimes these sorts of discussion sound like 'whoever was the worst one in the realtionship is to blame'.

That just seems too easy... .and leads to almost assured to failure.  Again, just my opinion.

[takingandsending]

I am doing okay today. Thanks for asking.

I spent some time last night and this morning, just observing my thoughts without judgment. When judgments crept in, I thought about how I would try to treat someone who was experiencing the same feelings, which helped me to relax the judgments and just allow again. It's basically mindfulness meditation.

Good point about how you (or I) might be perceived in an RS with a healthier partner. I recognized and self disclosed in MC session that I had chosen the relationships in my life so that I could have the upper hand in that perception. I have a real fear of a healthy partner seeing my lack of healthy, developed self. I know it goes back to disordered mother and co-dependent father and my own parentification. I saw so many chaotic, destructive patterns around me growing up. I was soo resolved not to ... .be that, be them. I learned that self-sufficiency was the way out. Now, I have to find my way back in and feed the poor child that didn't receive validation or acceptance for being confused, afraid, angry ... .for needing. Does anybody else get scared by this stuff?

[Skip]

Good point about how you (or I) might be perceived in an RS with a healthier partner. I recognized and self disclosed in MC session that I had chosen the relationships in my life so that I could have the upper hand in that perception. I have a real fear of a healthy partner seeing my lack of healthy, developed self. I know it goes back to disordered mother and co-dependent father and my own parentification. I saw so many chaotic, destructive patterns around me growing up. I was soo resolved not to ... .be that, be them. I learned that self-sufficiency was the way out. Now, I have to find my way back in and feed the poor child that didn't receive validation or acceptance for being confused, afraid, angry ... .for needing. Does anybody else get scared by this stuff?

This is a very powerful level self awareness and honesty.

[takingandsending]

Skip, awareness is good, but doing the work, developing self love, changing the habitual tendencies - that's the hard part for me. It's like quick sand.

[Harri]

Now, I have to find my way back in and feed the poor child that didn't receive validation or acceptance for being confused, afraid, angry ... .for needing. Does anybody else get scared by this stuff?

I am scared every day by this stuff.  I am more scared to stay the way I am though; beaten down, isolated, feeling so unworthy of even the smallest of kindnesses never mind love, trust, acceptance.  As I keep working on myself here and in T, the fear lessens, but it is still there.  Some wounds do not heal, you just have to learn to manage them.

Takingandsending, you are able to be vulnerable here when you tell us of your fears, your feelings, how you see yourself.  It takes a lot of courage.  I agree with you when you say that awareness is not enough.  While it is hard to see ourselves the way we are, to see the good bad and the ugly, it is so much harder to change how we think and act and to open up to new possibilities.  Fear plays a part in that but for me a lot of the difficulty is a lifetime of brainwashing where I grew up seeing myself through my mothers projections, delusions and paranoia.  It is so much easier for me to see my faults to see the bad in me than it is to see and accept any goodness.  I used to dissocciate when people complimented me and that was only if I did not push them away before they could say anything nice to me.

I can see how i was drawn to my ex given the way he saw me and related to me.  he never let me push him away and he was able to compliment me in ways that I thought were safe... .  they weren't, they were just different from what my family did and so it seemed good.  I used to fight with myself and tell myself to fight the fear and do it anyway.  Basically it was a good thing to do but I did it with the wrong person... .and I had no business getting into a relationship before doing a lot more work on myself.

Okay, more rambling, sorry. 

I apologize as I have not followed your story so forgive my questions.  Have you been able to really open up here, as in getting specific on the boards and look within?  I have shared some of my biggest fears, the source of my shame and how i view myself and everyone who has responded to me has been accepting, kind, gentle, confronting, challenging, etc.  People here have acted as an enlightened witness for me, validating, accepting, loving and caring for me in very healthy ways.  It has made a world of difference.  Posting here has also made it easier for me to open up in person with my therapists.  Are you able to open up with yours and see their reaction rather than dealing with your own judgement?  I find that my own judgement is twisted and distorted due to childhood experiences and that voice is so negative (read about the inner critic by pete walker... .excellent stuff at his site).  It is almost counter productive to look within to try to see ourselves when our own judgement is so disordered and we are programmed to not even like who we are.  Do you find that true for you too?

[takingandsending]

Briefly, my history. Married for 17 years to uBPDxw, lived together for 20 years. Told xw I wanted a divorce last August. Left house in March. Two kids, S11 and S6. Xw and I saw an MC who advised me privately of xw's BPD. I still see MC as my T (she was actually my T before we did MC as well). I started on bpdfamily on Improving board. I tried for 2 years to not make things worse (mostly succeeded) but had little success in making things better. A couple years back, xw went on vacation for 10 days. Sons and I had incredibly peaceful and easy time.   I realized how much energy xw was draining from simply parenting my sons. Xw took second trip to Hawaii and, coming home, confessed she had spent $7500 on face masks and creams. It confirmed to me that she would only ever pull resources and energy from me, that we were irretrievably broken. Finally, last summer, she asked to build addition to our house for her healing arts business. I realized I could not commit to anything going forward with her that would bind us more tightly enmeshed than we already were. I said no. She wanted to know why. I was honest and said I didn't see a future for us together.

Moved over to Divorce, Family Law and CoParenting boards. I've resolved with T that I entered my RS based on my own self esteem issues. But I have yet to crack the source of my shame and feelings of not deserving love. I once did an intensive workshop with my xw before we were married that led to identifying core, basic assumptions about ourselves that we all carry with us that stem from events in early childhood. Mine was "I am evil and weak" with a concept "I don't deserve love". The theory is that we build up a pretense the rest of our lives because we run from those horrid assumptions. I do feel that I have these thoughts about myself, but I really haven't looked heavily at why I do. And, I think, in not doing that work, I haven't really resolved them, almost like there's a part of me I am still afraid of seeing or discovering.

A lot of my shame is tied up with my mother. I love her. She did so much for me. And she also did so much harm to me. I once had a T that had me whack a pillow with a tennis racket and yell how angry I was at my mom. It didn't make me feel better. I always felt nauseated and tense afterwards, raw and miserable. I feel like this is all of our parents - life giving and life taking. We have to build houses within ourselves for both aspects. As a parent, I have the same two aspects with my sons - I just try to acknowledge when I hurt them, when I hurt the trust they have in me.

Mental illness runs in my mom's side of the family. Her grandmother was institutionalized (not sure when or for what - in the 1940's maybe?), my grandmother was depressive, my grandfather was a child molester, and my mom has BPD traits if not outright BPD. My dad was/is a heavily co-dependent caretaker. So, I believe there is a genetic element, and I believe that I was groomed as a child to be a caretaker and I learned f-all about healthy boundaries. And despite being the youngest of 6 kids, and having it easier in way than my siblings and everyone always telling me that I was a happy baby and how much more love I got than anyone else in the family, I have a lot of self judgments and guilt. I spent my whole childhood trying to not be any of my siblings or have any of the problems they had, nor give my parents any of the heartache that I perceived my siblings did. We were an extremely critical family and verbal sparring was considered an art. It was only in college that I began to realize that it wasn't normal.

So, it wasn't brief and I have really rambled. Thanks for the encouragement to post on this board. I am on the journey to finding how to love myself as I am and know what I value and believe in. I guess we are all on that journey.