Is there hope?

[dillpickle]

My mother has never been officially diagnosed with BPD, however, she exhibits almost all of the traits characterized by the condition, and would be considered "high-functioning" (witch, queen). Growing up at our house was pretty rough. There were some happy moments, but my mother took all her anger, frustration, and rage out on us. There were some minor incidents of physical abuse (where she would slap, punch, or push us), but mostly it was verbal and psychological. She would call us names, humiliate us, shame us, criticize us, scream, yell, and throw things. She also threatened to disown us. She sometimes cried and told me all about her marital problems, and her problems with our relatives, so that I would feel sorry for her. She would also lie to manipulate us, and lie to other friends and family, to make it seem like we were a happy family.

However, both my parents are controlling, and close-minded. They are not open to new ideas, different opinions, or perspectives. They see this as disobedience, disrespect, and the ultimate betrayal/rejection to our Asian culture. When I have tried to be assertive, they have told me that respect is not submission, but submission is respect. They told me that I should treat them like my employer. They continue to treat me like a child, and want my husband and I to submit to them. This includes what I choose to do, or not to do, with my own family. Now that I am a mother myself, I do not want my children around them, but I also feel obligated to let my children see them as they are the only family close by.

My grandmother passed away recently, and my mother had kept me away from her for years. She lied to me about how sick my grandmother actually was, and badmouthed her to me, and my whole family. Now, she is trying to destroy the relationship I have with my dad, which is already hanging by a thread. She has been in his ear about how much I've changed, and how I am "too westernized", and how I will only disappoint him. Well, he believes her. Every phone conversation I have with them, ends up being an argument, where she hangs up, and I end up crying because I am so angry and frustrated. I feel like my mom is trying to destroy every close relationship I have, including the one with my husband, my sister (who no longer sees them), and my children.

Should I try to keep the peace, at least until my mom passes away? Will I be consumed by guilt if either of them should pass away, and we end on a sour note? Or do I keep my distance, and let them cut me off? Is there hope of having a normal, functioning relationship? Honestly, I feel so confused.

[Notwendy]

Is there hope?

A complicated question for sure- and the answer is yes- there is hope, but it may not be in the way you imagine it should be.

The hope does not come from you getting the power to change your parents. We can't do that. They are who they are. Will they change? It isn't possible to know that.

The change comes from your own personal growth and how that impacts your relationship with them.

The change comes from knowing that- if your mother does manage to interfere with your relationships with others, that you can deal with that. It isn't easy, and it is hurtful, but you can learn to understand the situation- the dynamics in your family ( the drama triangle is a key dynamic here). Your father's part in this situation- he loves you but he is co-dependent with your mother.

The change comes from letting go of guilt- and guilt about taking care of yourself- even if your parents don't like it, even if things become sour. Some posters here have had to cut contact with their parents for their own sanity. Some do a sort of low contact- maintaining the relationship but with boundaries. Your hope comes from choosing the kind of relationship you think is best for you.

There are a couple of things going on with your family. One is the culture differences- and this is something I think is common to generations in a new culture. One good example is Fiddler on the Roof where the younger generation does some things different from their parents' traditions and how the parents cope with that. This doesn't just happen with cultures- a child may choose to marry someone from a different religion or race from their parents, or change religions, or refuse to run the family business, and many other situations.

The conflict becomes greater with parents on the NPD/BPD spectrum. They don't see their children as separate individuals, but as extensions of themselves. When the children begin to show their own individual traits, the parents have a difficult time accepting that the child is an individual. This is boundaries. What is "us", what is "them".  A child who does not comply may be rejected- either in the moment -( the push/pull) or longer.

People with BPD don't have good boundaries- they may be too weak, or too strong. One issue with your parents is these poor boundaries. Your father loves you, but he also is so enmeshed with your mother that her wishes strongly influence him. Parents who do have good boundaries learn to accept that their grown children will make their own paths- they can love their children and accept that their children are separate people from them.

The drama triangle is a helpful model. I think pwBPD take victim perspective. Your father is the rescuer. When your mother is upset with you, she comes to him as "victim"- he sides with her as rescuer.

Start with the lessons here. When you understand the dynamics in your family, I think it helps to not take their behavior personally. Although it feels hurtful to you- it is who they are and how they manage their emotions. Family systems are also at play here- when one member changes and grows out of the system, it makes the other ones uncomfortable- and they may react. It helps if you don't react- and add to the drama.

Your first responsibility is to you-, and your children. You need to take care of yourself. You may need to learn to accept that taking care of yourself and your family may not please them. You may want them to be pleased with you- but you can not control their feelings. It would be very sad to be on a sour note with them, but it is worse to not be who you are, and not take care of your children. You can find your balance with this.

For me, hope doesn't come from wishing my BPD mother will change. People may or may not change, but I can't control that. Hope for me was being Ok with the fact that I have choices. Sometimes I do keep the peace- in short visits, family occasions where it just isn't worth it to get into conflict. Sometimes I absolutely do not comply and keep the peace with requests that I can't go along with. She doesn't like it. She gets angry and threatens to disown me. Hope comes from realizing that yes, she has that choice as well. Hope comes from acting from my own authentic self and not complying out of fear of her feeling upset with me.

I hope this gives you hope

[dillpickle]

Hi Notwendy, thank you so much for taking the time to reply. Your words have brought a lot of clarity to my thoughts, and to my situation. You are right about the drama triangle, about my father being enmeshed and co-dependent. I am just heartbroken that both my parents are so willing to cut my sister, my family, and I, out of their lives... .for no real reason.

I have tried to maintain low contact with boundaries, but it is not working out so well. They don't like or respect my boundaries either, and my mother likes to take revenge on me for doing so. When things seem calm and quiet, she'll start something awful. For example, I was celebrating my child's birthday on the weekend, when she decided to call at the eleventh hour to start a fight. I was so upset that she wanted to ruin our special family day.

Thank you for sharing how you cope with your BPD mom. It's funny because most people who meet her, think that my mom is so lovely. She is warm, friendly, and generous to others -- and they would not believe me, if I told them how she really was. I am sorry to hear that your mom also threatened to disown you. It is unbelievably hurtful, that the one person who is supposed to love you unconditionally, can't and won't. I will definitely take your advice on board, and thank you again, for giving me hope. 

[DaughterOfHera]

dillpickle, I am so sorry that you have had to grow up as a child dealing with the behaviours that can stem from mental illness in a parent.  I am also sorry that you are still dealing with it, along with the family dynamics associated.  While I cannot give you advice, I can let you know that you are not alone.  My family is not the same as yours, but we do have some similarities.  Partners of those dealing with BPD or potential BPD (your father, my father, my uncle) get sucked in too and are often just doing their best to survive.  You and your sister will have had to develop your own coping skills just to survive as well (just as I did, along with my sister and cousins).  As a kid you would have had no choice in how to deal with it.  Now as an adult, you are confronted with addressing even further family dynamics.  Throw in your family's culture and what had previously been considered traditional / acceptable, you are doubly challenged.  I feel for you... .this does not seem like an easy place to be at all.  It is always important to remember, though, that you are not your parents, you are not living in a previous time, and you are not living someone else's life for them.  You get to be as much of an adult as you wish to be, and you get to be an adult who has survived that type of childhood.  You are an expert on your situation, with skills and a genuine wish for betterness.  You have people, here, who understand.  You are wished well. 

[Notwendy]

I am just heartbroken that both my parents are so willing to cut my sister, my family, and I, out of their lives... .for no real reason.

Me too, and it happened to me. I could believe it from my mother. Our relationship was always difficult- I was the child who stood up to her- I was her "black child". I don't think we were ever bonded like a mother/daughter.

I adored my father. He is deceased now. He was the one I considered to be my parent. 

My mother tends to divide people- she sees them as being  "on her side" or not her side.  The drama triangle was a model for the relationships in the family. If my mother was upset with me, she presented the situation to my father as her being the victim- my father then would step in as rescuer. Being accepted in my family required me being compliant with my mother- not having boundaries with her. Once I chose to have boundaries, I was not accepted anymore.

I recall my father saying to me ( about my boundaries) " I wish we could be one happy family again" ( ie happy meaning  my role was to try to please my mother, not be concerned about me or my children).  I really thought about what he meant by happy. It meant my parents were happy. Yet, there was no concern about whether or not I was OK- it didn't include my feelings at all. It didn't make sense that "happy" included being subjected to verbal and emotional abuse. How is that happy?

I am also conscientious  about the complexity of relationships. It isn't my parents' job to make me happy. But it didn't make sense to me that my mother should be allowed to treat me in ways that were hurtful. I was also concerned about the effect of her behavior on my children. I felt that I was on the line- to choose me, and them, or my parents' well being. I didn't want to choose. I loved my father. But this is the way things seemed to be in my family.

I had to also realize that it was my father who lived with my mother, not me,  and if she was upset, it was my father who would be seeing it all the time. I know he loved her. I don't think he wanted to make the choices he did either, but under the circumstance- he did what he felt he had to do- which was to comply with my mother's feelings.

[dillpickle]

dillpickle, I am so sorry that you have had to grow up as a child dealing with the behaviours that can stem from mental illness in a parent.  I am also sorry that you are still dealing with it, along with the family dynamics associated.  While I cannot give you advice, I can let you know that you are not alone.  My family is not the same as yours, but we do have some similarities.  Partners of those dealing with BPD or potential BPD (your father, my father, my uncle) get sucked in too and are often just doing their best to survive.  You and your sister will have had to develop your own coping skills just to survive as well (just as I did, along with my sister and cousins).  As a kid you would have had no choice in how to deal with it.  Now as an adult, you are confronted with addressing even further family dynamics.  Throw in your family's culture and what had previously been considered traditional / acceptable, you are doubly challenged.  I feel for you... .this does not seem like an easy place to be at all.  It is always important to remember, though, that you are not your parents, you are not living in a previous time, and you are not living someone else's life for them.  You get to be as much of an adult as you wish to be, and you get to be an adult who has survived that type of childhood.  You are an expert on your situation, with skills and a genuine wish for betterness.  You have people, here, who understand.  You are wished well. 

Hello DaughterofHera! Thank you so much for replying to my post, and for your compassionate understanding about the situation I am in. I am very sorry to hear that you've had to deal with this too.  May I ask what has been your approach? Has it worked?

I think one of the hardest things about trying to cope with a family member or loved one with BPD, is that the BPD condition isn't really talked about. You hear about anxiety, depression, people having bi-polar or being schizophrenic, but not really BPD. I am really glad I found this forum!

Thank you for the reminder that I am not alone, that I have control over my own life, and that I have the ability to live a life that isn't dictated by my mother's condition. Your words mean more than I know how to say. Thank you!

[dillpickle]

I am just heartbroken that both my parents are so willing to cut my sister, my family, and I, out of their lives... .for no real reason.

Me too, and it happened to me. I could believe it from my mother. Our relationship was always difficult- I was the child who stood up to her- I was her "black child". I don't think we were ever bonded like a mother/daughter.

I adored my father. He is deceased now. He was the one I considered to be my parent. 

My mother tends to divide people- she sees them as being  "on her side" or not her side.  The drama triangle was a model for the relationships in the family. If my mother was upset with me, she presented the situation to my father as her being the victim- my father then would step in as rescuer. Being accepted in my family required me being compliant with my mother- not having boundaries with her. Once I chose to have boundaries, I was not accepted anymore.

I recall my father saying to me ( about my boundaries) " I wish we could be one happy family again" ( ie happy meaning  my role was to try to please my mother, not be concerned about me or my children).  I really thought about what he meant by happy. It meant my parents were happy. Yet, there was no concern about whether or not I was OK- it didn't include my feelings at all. It didn't make sense that "happy" included being subjected to verbal and emotional abuse. How is that happy?

I am also conscientious  about the complexity of relationships. It isn't my parents' job to make me happy. But it didn't make sense to me that my mother should be allowed to treat me in ways that were hurtful. I was also concerned about the effect of her behavior on my children. I felt that I was on the line- to choose me, and them, or my parents' well being. I didn't want to choose. I loved my father. But this is the way things seemed to be in my family.

I had to also realize that it was my father who lived with my mother, not me,  and if she was upset, it was my father who would be seeing it all the time. I know he loved her. I don't think he wanted to make the choices he did either, but under the circumstance- he did what he felt he had to do- which was to comply with my mother's feelings.

Your family sounds a lot like mine, except it was my sister who was the "bad child". I was much more submissive than my sister, however, my mom would often pit one sibling against another. My mother has openly confessed that she prefers boys, so my brother is her golden child -- as he is the youngest, the most dependent, and the most enmeshed with her. I completely understand what you mean about the lack of bonding. My sister and I never bonded with our mother, we bonded with our grandmothers, and our father instead.

I am so sorry for your loss.  Nothing can describe what it is like to lose someone you love and adore, especially a parent.    Though I am curious, about how your mother coped when your father passed away, as he was her rescuer? I've been thinking about this recently as my mother has caused a lot of unnecessary drama and heartache when my grandmother passed away last month.

I really admire your strength and grace in dealing with your family's situation. What you have described, is pretty much the same thing I am going through. My father wants my sister and I, to acquiesce to my mother's demands. He wants us to submit to their rule, their ways, and what they say, without questioning, and without protest. You are absolutely right, there is no happiness for you subjecting yourself to emotional and verbal abuse. It will just make your mom "happy" for the time being, and you'll have to find ways to cope without support. I'm so sorry, it just bloody awful. :'(

[Notwendy]

How did my mother cope?

That is a complicated question and also some things are unique to her situation. She is also very secretive and lies to me so I don't really know if what she says to me is true or not.

My parents' relationship also included conflict. It was a difficult marriage- but my parents were also very attached to each other.

One thing I can not tell about my mother is if she has the capacity to love anyone. I think she is at the severe end of BPD and is so emotionally conflicted that this isn't in her make up or at least not something she demonstrates. I don't know if she ever loved me in the motherly sense but I also think she maintains the relationship because she considers me to be useful to her.I do have compassion for her situation- as a widow it makes sense to want to feel attached to her children. I also feel that sense of duty- some may call it FOG, but I also have a respect for religion and tradition. Since my mother is not really a danger to me, I don't feel I need to break contact. However, I don't wish to have a close relationship with her either. I don't think she minds. If she goes weeks without speaking to me she doesn't seem to care. Yet when she sees her friends who have grown children help them, she wants that too. That is understandable on her part, but our relationship is different from her friends who may have had a bond with their children.

I do not know what feelings she had or not for my father. She was financially dependent on him and he provided for her well. We feared she would not cope well as a widow, but she does very well. One reason is that he left her in a stable financial situation. We grew up with financial stress- her wishes came first, and although we didn't go without basic needs, there didn't seem to be money for things like college tuition. But apparently my father made plans for her, so she can hire help. Ironically she has "grown into" this as it is normal for an elderly person to need people to help her, so there is help available to do the things my father did. Although we kids did feel the financial stresses growing up, we now feel this is a gift to us that she has what she needs and we are not in a position to worry about her basic needs.

Does she miss him? I don't know. My mother tends to see things from a victim perspective and so doesn't seem sensitive to things like the grief of others. People with BPD don't manage their own feelings well. My mother's way of coping is to be detached and it is hard to know what she is feeling. The exception is the rages.

[dillpickle]

Thanks for sharing again, Notwendy -- I really appreciate your input.

The reason I asked this is because I am worried that my mother will try to cause a rift between my dad, my siblings, and I, so that she can feel like she is doing the "right" thing by not informing us if anything happens to him. She had purposefully discouraged me from seeing my grandmother when she was alive, and wanted me to promise not to tell my sister where and when my grandmother's funeral was. I refused to do this. My sister and I were both kept out of the loop while my grandmother was dying, and were only informed once she passed away. When I questioned my mother about why she did not inform me (as I had asked her if my grandmother was dying just the day before), she flew into an explosive rage and said that she didn't know, and she honestly believed my grandmother was well. She started screaming and crying on the phone about how sad she was, and how she had always loved my grandmother (which was also a lie), and how I could even suspect that of her. I spoke to my Aunty later that week, who apologized for not being able to make the funeral as she lived overseas, especially since my mom had told her that my grandmother was very sick! I am worried about this happening to my dad -- as I love him, and we have been close.

I am also worried about my mother should she try to harm herself if my dad dies... .but I suppose she'll have my brother take on the role of rescuer. I'm not even sure if I am able to save my brother from this.

Thank you for reading!

[Notwendy]

The things you are concerned about are unfortunate possibilities. But the question is- do you have the power to control what your mother says or does? And if you did, what would it take to do this?

My father sadly did get ill and pass away. I tried to help as best as I could. I had my own family at the time, but I made the financial and time sacrifice to be there to help my father. I wanted to do this- I would have done it more if I could.

It is natural that this situation would be difficult and upsetting for any family. However, my mother's reactions were ( as expected) extreme. With each visit, I endured emotional abuse from her and also my father's anger if I wasn't complacent with her. Whatever I did for them someone wasn't good enough for them.  At one point, the abuse got so much for me that I feared I would be so stressed I would not be able to take care of my own family.  I felt I had to make a choice- me, my family - or them and their needs and enduring abuse. I chose my sanity and my family. I did not abandon them. I did visit, but according to them, it was not enough.

I called my father almost every day, but my mother listened in on the phone calls. He could not speak freely. Sometimes if we were talking and she picked up,  he hung up abruptly. He was with her 24/7. She painted me black to him and to her family members. They stopped speaking to me. By the time my father passed away, I think they had disowned me.

My mother has harmed herself and made suicide threats in the past. We sibs are concerned if she would heaven forbid do this. But what would it take to control this? Are any of us willing to move in with her and watch her 24/7? No. We agreed we would call 911 for any threats. The ambulance would be there sooner than we could be. So far, thank goodness, this has not happened.

Unfortunately, a parent with BPD can put us in a difficult situation. I wanted a relationship with my father. I don't want my mother to hurt herself. However, what is the cost of trying to control their choices? If would take me moving in with them 24/7 attending to my mother's wishes, enduring her verbal abuse without saying a word to try to gain their approval and even then probably not being able to. This is not a choice I wished to make but it was the one I had. I chose me. I do not regret that. I can not imagine the mental state I would have been in had I continued to base my own self worth on their approval of me. I love my children and chose to focus on them. I loved my father, and I hope he knew that.  It's the best I can do.

[dillpickle]

Hi again, Notwendy. Thank you for your insight into this situation. I will take your advice on board, and think about how I can manage my relationship with my mother. I am hoping for peace, whatever happens. Thank you again. 

[Notwendy]

Best wishes to you dillpickle.

I hope for the best for you too. Remember, peace can be our state of mind too.